How can someone be guilty of simple murder for the mother and aggravated murder for the fetus?

[Stinky The Clown]

Simple murder carries no death penalty. Aggravated murder does.

How do jurors find that? I don't understand.

(context: Bobby Cutts murder trial)

[slackmaster]

1. Link please

I'm too lazy to Google Bobby Cutts myself and have no idea what this is about.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. I don't have a link and don't care enough to look for one ......

It was all just on teevee. The guy killed his pregnant girlfriend. He didn't specifically do anything to the fetus (apart from killing the mother). The jury found him guilty of the worst charge in the fetus' death, but a lesser charge in the murder of the mother.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[slackmaster]

4. Thanks

I don't generally watch teevee.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

As long as he never walks free in society again, what difference does it make?

[stellanoir]

2. I guess they had the presumption that it would have been an especially bothersome baby.

[Uncle Joe]

5. I'm not familiar with the story in question but I imagine

it's because they view the unborn as totally innocent in the situation.

[Iris]

10. and therefore the mother's life is worth less.

Americans know how to place priorities on respecting life. It's really easy, when you know how.


:sarcasm:

[Uncle Joe]

13. As I stated, I'm not familiar with the details as to

why they made a distinction between simple murder for the mother and aggravated murder for her unborn child, in any case simple murder and life in prison certainly doesn't imply her life was worthless in any way, shape or form.

Personally I'm against capital punishment period.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. More importantly how is this a national story?

I know why Fixed news is carrying it, he is black, but still

[Stinky The Clown]

7. All the cable outfits are carrying it

Its easier than ...... I dunno ...... war stories or in depth reviews of why bush should be impeahced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Bread and circus... part of it

if they could, he'd be sent to the lions... far more entertaining if you get my drift


Oh and Fixed news... that is what dad watches in Mexico City, since it theory shows the dow... but I hate fixed news

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Because the murder occurred in the context of another crime?

i.e., the murder of the mother?

Aggravated murder is often charged if it is connected with the commission of a separate felony - shooting someone on the street is not aggravated murder, but shooting someone during a robbery would be.

I think that's probably the rationale.

EDIT: for typo (separage?)

[Solly Mack]

11. probably the felony murder doctrine

The felony murder doctrine states if you kill during the commission of a felony, the death is a 1st degree murder charge.(which can carry a sentence of death in DP states...2nd degree murder is usually your 7 year sentences...it all varies by state)

As murder is a felony (the woman), any other deaths (a fetus, in this case) that result from that initial felony gets a 1st degree murder charge....

The first death could carry a lesser charge if it wasn't considered 1st degree murder but it would still be a felony.


Each state defines and charges its own varying degrees within the federal codes.

This post is in no way to show support of, or disagreement with, how the charges in the Cutts case came down. I'm simply pointing out what the charges might have been based on...

The best example is robbery with a gun. You and your buddy rob a store with a gun. This is already a felony (armed robbery). During that felony, you shoot and kill the owner...that murder is 1st degree murder now...because it took place during the commission of a felony. There is no but I didn't mean to so make it a lesser charge...it's 1st degree murder.

Both you and your buddy can be charged even if he had no gun...even if he didn't hurt anyone. He was still part of the initial felony that caused the 1st degree murder charge...so he can be charged with both as well.

The jury might have be charged to find a verdict within that doctrine. So in that case, yes...they could find a lesser charge for the woman (if her death wasn't considered 1st degree murder - but 2nd degree, such as resulting from a sudden fight..though still murder, and thereby a felony)

...and a greater charge for the fetus(because murder is a felony and the fetus died as the result of the commission of a felony).

Again. I'm not offering an opinion either way..for or against. I'm just assuming they applied the felony murder doctrine in one form or another.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Thanks for a clear explanation ..... and ain't it really sad that we have to ......

..... include disclaimers in even rational posts here on Eat Your Own Underground? :hi:

[Solly Mack]

22. I have my own opinions about the charges but I didn't

want to get into all that in my answer - hence the disclaimer...and yeah, it is sad.

[pitohui]

12. because women don't matter but babies are important

we're still second class citizens and even the life of a fetus is of more value in the eyes of a jury than the life of a real living breathing woman

how else can i interpret it? i'm tired of being considered a second class citizen but it ain't gonna change in my lifetime obviously

it's always "think of the children" but if a woman has a complaint, it's "she can't take a joke" -- our feelings and experiences are just not considered on the same level

[Stinky The Clown]

20. See, that's my take, too. This was in Ohio where all sorts of religiously insane people live.

But Solly Mack, right above in this thread, posted a good reason why you and I might be mistaken to jump to the conclusions we did ...... or not.

[AngryOldDem]

14. Here's my take.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

1) It was alleged he was angry over support payments.

2) While he may not have intended to kill her when he hit her, he should have realized that since she was pregnant, he was putting the fetus at substantial risk by harming the mother, but he did so anyway.

3) Perhaps the prosecution's idea of motive was to cause her to lose the baby to avoid another support payment. That could constitute malice aforethought, I would think.

I dunno. I really didn't follow this one closely, but I was surprised that he was found not guility of ag murder of the mother.

What I continue to not get are these cases where people are found guilty in the deaths of fetuses, yet abortion is legal. Seems to me to be a huge contradiction here.

[Iris]

16. the contradiction is intentional

eventually, abortion will be a capital offense since the unborn are beginning to be considered citizens

[Stinky The Clown]

21. Bingo!

We have a winner!

THAT is the big picture reason, for sure.

[Iris]

23. Isn't it scary? And also to realize this started some time ago.

We are just beginning to feel the effects of this way of thinking.

I also am uncomfortable with the way science finds all these ways to make the mother responsible for birth defects. Even now, doctors are starting to lighten up on the no alcohol "rule" and there's conflicting information about whether or not caffeine is harmful. So eventually, no abortions and every pregnancy that doesn't result in a perfect child will cast an incriminating light on the mother.

[zbdent]

15. a thought on this; not to minimize it, but ...

Repukes and RW blatherfaces go on and on about the "left's disregard for the law and human life".

So, according to them, a leftie would NEVER become a policeman, because that would involve understanding and upholding the law.

Also, the further you get from the "bigger cities" (Cleveland, so to speak), the more likely the area will become "Republican" or conservative ...

So, according to their standards, this guy had to have been a Republican/Conservative ... he was a cop in Canton (as close as Hudson or Medina is far enough to be "Republican") ...

Along with all these bad cops who are doing the nasty stuff to ALLEGED perps ...

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

17. His motives...

He was wanting to get out of child support, according to the D.A. Besides the son he had with Davis and the child they were expecting, Cutts had two other children, each by a different mother. His actions certainly sound premeditated to me, and I'm not sure why they wouldn't push for the harsher penalty for Davis's murder than the death of her unborn daughter (though a fetus is most definitely viable at 9 months).

[NNN0LHI]

18. Don't know for sure the murder of the woman was premeditated or even on purpose

He did murder the baby in her belly on purpose.

Thats probably the way they looked at it.

Don