"If the teachers had a guns too, there couldn't be any school shootings."

[Smith_3]

or "If all responsible citizens carried, there could be no spree killers."

I wonder if those statements are really true. Is gun violence really lower in areas that have lacks gun laws. What do the statistics show? Are there any statistically relevant numbers of cases were a "determined armed citizen saved the day"? I mean there are perhaps individual cases, but what is the overall trend? Do lacks gun laws lead to more or to less innocents getting shot? Or are perhaps other factors more relevant?

I really have my doubts that teachers with guns would be able to stop determined school shooters. If anything, the lacks gun laws would lead to the shooters aquiring larger caliber automatic weapons and targeting the teachers first, no? I doubt that even a large group of teachers with pistols could stop a group of home trained counter-strike kids with AK47s.

Perhaps armed security guards at schools would work, provided they are trained well enough to tell a real threat from a schoolyard brawl.

edit: so could it be perhaps, that the real determining factors are mental healthcare, proper education for everyone and elimination of poverty?

[lapfog_1]

1. Uh, you just started this thread a little while ago...

and in the same forum.

Why the repeat?

[Smith_3]

3. Accidental self-delete I think. I klicked that little cross button and it was gone.

[Kutjara]

2. Of course, this always presupposes that...

...it wouldn't be a teacher who flipped-out and started blasting. Never mind the scenario of a student who cold-cocks a teacher, takes his/her gun and goes on the rampage.

This view also makes the assumption that everyone with a gun is willing to engage a psychotic gunman, or take a human life. Not everyone is a Rambo-in-waiting.

The whole "if everyone had guns..." argument is a nonstarter on so many levels. It reminds me of Archie Bunker's line about the way to stop hijackings being to arm all the passengers.

[Cosmocat]

6. GOD ...

these people just has such oblivious views of the world ...

The points you make, PLUS others ...

What happens when the police come storming in and these other teachers have guns ??? What happens when you have untrained teachers popping shots off all over the place, some innocent kids get killed by them in the cross fire ...

Finally, the thought of STUDENTS carrying guns on college campuses is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas ... Yeah, lets let 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds who are binge drinking carry loaded fire arms ...

BRILLIANT ...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

18. Untrained teachers?

If this idea of arming teachers was going to be tried in a few colleges, I'd assume there'd be plenty of training available for those teachers interested in participating. I'm sure the training would be mandatory (and necessary).

Students don't normally carry guns on campuses. There are times, though, when a student knows he's going to be walking home from a lab in the wee hours, that he might carry a bit of protection.

[Cosmocat]

61. Look ...

ain't MY arguement here ...

After VT right wingers were advocating for pretty much letting ANYONE carry a weapon ...

Plenty of training for teachers ??? You know how much training police have to have in relation to school shootings now ??? We aren't talking about "gun safety" ... We are talking about the tactical aspects of dealing with a school shooting situation ... For which law enforcement officers have basic training to begin with ... The proper way to clear a room, to proceed with a group of other officers, hand signals ...

It just is a flat retarded idea for a hundred different reasons ...

[mvccd1000]

25. 18-20 year-olds can't get CCWs.

So you're starting out from a false premise.

CCW holders have to go through at least a modicum of training as well, and most of them continue to get more training and practice. (Another falsehood in your argument.)

How many other misconceptions do you harbor?

[Cosmocat]

60. Ugh ...

the misconceptions of the right wingers who advocate for what I mentioned ...

Ain't MY premise, genius ...

[krispos42]

70. It's not "everyone" that's being talked about

It's the one or two percent of the population that have gone through or are willing to go through the trouble and expense of getting a concealed pistol permit. The thinking being that if they can carry concealed in their classroom like they do on the street, in the mall, at the movies, and in the park, then if shit goes down there's a chance they could stop it.

This would be more effective on a college campus, because you have to be 21 to buy a pistol or get a permit.

But even one or two dedicated teachers, who know the kids and the school and are determined to make a difference might be able to stop something terrible from becoming something horrendous.

Under the current system, you'll never see it happening because the risk of jail time and loss of job is too great.

The "arm everybody" idea IS a non-starter. If you don't know how to use a gun and don't want to learn, then you're a liability, not an asset.

[ingac70]

4. ....

http://www.statemaster.com/red/pie/cri_gun_vio_pop-crime-gun-violence-population

[ingac70]

5. Check this out...

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_vio_cri_percap-crime-violent-per-capita

[Iris]

58. cool! Georgia can probably move to the top 10 or even 5 as soon as

we get laws passed saying business owners cannot prohibit employees or customers from bringing guns on their property!

Of course, Florida will be hard to beat with that castle law and all.

[ingac70]

63. D.C has the strictest laws in the Nation...

yet it is #1 in violent crime.

[izzie]

7. Usually these people who believe this have good reason but

I grew up when kids and teachers did not have a gun in school and I do not recall this going on. So I am not sure it is a good way to think it out. I think if their are more guns I am in the percent that may be shot by some one with a gun. I also think about the West. Once people came with police and to have families they got rid of the 'gun' people and things moved on. The worst thing I can recall kids doing with guns when I grew up and Maine was a gun place, is this. One boy shot at passing cars and got in a lot of trouble, some kids shot out some windows and had to work the whole year to repay for them and a few boys shot sea gulls, which I think they got away with. I can recall hoping they got in trouble. I liked watching sea gulls.

[Steerpike]

8. I sort of agree with your premise.

But if everyone knows the teachers are packing heat, won't they be the first ones to get shot?

[krispos42]

71. It wouldn't be all teachers.

Just the ones that, on their own, had or got a concealed pistol permit. There would probably not be more than three or four in a school

[Heidi]

9. It's not about the guns! The problem is that the textbooks aren't HUGH enough!!11!

Here's what Bill Crozier, former candidate for Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools, believed would best protect kids from a hail of bullets in the event of a school shooting: thick, used textbooks. :eyes:

News article: http://www.koco.com/news/10105982/detail.html
Video of demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTxMdZimgKw

[TheUniverse]

10. couldnt a student just steal the teacher's gun?

[speedbird]

11. the police will wait until the shooter runs out of ammo,

for obvious safety issues.

armed teachers would fight for themselves.


take your pick

[bluerum]

12. I would start with UNIVERSAL health care that includes MENTAL health care.

To me, health care for everyone makes much more sense than guns for everyone.

Once everyone has health care, THEN you give out gun permits like little award certificates. :sarcasm: Just kidding - health care is priority #1. Guns for everyone is not even on the chart. What madness.

[Tesha]

15. Bingo. (NT)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

19. Regardless of "gun" opinion, Universal Health Care is good

Universal Health Care would go a long way toward solving many societal ills. I don't know how a "civilized" nation has gone this long without it. It just seems so obvious (to me) that it's a good idea.

"Guns" is a separate issue, and we could continue debating it even after we all have access to quality health care, paid from federal coffers.

[Perry Logan]

13. And what if your teacher is a lousy shot?

[ulysses]

59. shit - I'm not too bad a shot

and there's no way in hell I would carry a gun into my classroom.

[Tesha]

14. Of course the statements aren't true. Unhappy teacher/spouse A would shoot unhappy teacher/spouse B

Of course the statements aren't true. Unhappy teacher/spouse A
would shoot unhappy teacher/spouse B and younger, prettier/more
handsome spouse B's teacher/lover.

More guns = more deaths. We prove it constantly and the deniers
deny it constantly.

Tesha

[mvccd1000]

24. Oh? Then why doesn't unhappy restaurant patron A gun down patron B?

Why doesn't unhappy man A in the bank gun down unhappy man B?

Why didn't I shoot the guy who cut in front of me at Home Depot last month?

When will gun grabbers begin to notice that every time the right to carry is restored somewhere, NONE of the "streets will run red with blood" scenarios comes true?

When will gun grabbers go to the state police websites for the states that have concealed carry and educate themselves to the fact that CCW holders violate far fewer laws - of any kind - than the population in general?

We prove it constantly, and the deniers deny it constantly.

[Tesha]

33. They do, of course.

> Oh? Then why doesn't unhappy restaurant patron A gun down patron B?

They do, of course. They just don't get the sort
of publicity that school shootings are currently
getting.

Between murder, suicide, and accidental shootings,
guns kill more than 80 Americans every day and injure
far more.

Tesha

[mvccd1000]

37. Sorry, but they don't. You might want to re-check your information.

Any proposal I've heard of to allow guns in schools entails allowing concealed carry permit holders to carry in schools, just like they are allowed to carry nearly everywhere else.

Since these are the people we are discussing in this thread, these are the people I reference with my question about patron A and patron B.

I don't think anyone is proposing to allow gangbangers and crackheads to carry guns in schools, so your numbers just went out the window.

[Tesha]

39. I think I'll have a far easier time proving restaurant murders *DO* occur than you will...

I think I'll have a far easier time proving restaurant
murders *DO* occur than you will proving that they don't.

But you give it a try and report back...

Tesha

[mvccd1000]

46. Show me even ONE that was committed by a CCW holder...

....since those ARE the only people we're talking about allowing to carry in schools.

Like I said, gang-bangers and crackheads don't count. No one has proposed allowing them to carry in schools.

[Tesha]

48. Ahh, you've moved the goalposts. How typical. (NT)

[mvccd1000]

64. I don't think I have....

I've never seen a discussion about allowing anyone other than CCW holders to carry in schools.

Have you?

Would it not make sense to use them in our comparisons, then?

Obviously, if we used gangbangers or crackheads, I would agree with you. No, having those people carrying weapons in schools would probably not result in better safety for anyone.

Happy now? I've said that I don't agree with some people carrying guns in schools. Funny, that's been my position all along.

[aikoaiko]

16. Armed adults may not stop all spree shooters but these shooters are selecting gunfree zones

Honestly, as a college professor who already has a permit to carry a concealed weapon and does so where legal, I just want to be able (the chance) to protect myself should something bad happen.

[Smith_3]

17. I agree, it makes little sense to have a gun free zone if you are not planning to enforce it.

All you are doing otherwise, is declaring yourself as an easy target.

In other words: If you really want a college campus to be a gun free zone, that means armed guards and metal detectors at the gates.

[ileus]

20. that would just make the teacher the first target.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. The thing that people who advocate arming these students ignore

is what if they aren't a great shot? What if those students in Illinois or Virginia did have guns and in the heat of the moment whipped them out and started firing when these gunmen entered their classrooms? And what if THEY MISSED? And shot some of their classmates? Why does no one ever think about that?

[mvccd1000]

27. So you think it's better if ONLY the criminal has a gun?

That way he is free to continue shooting for as long as he so desires?

I can't bring myself to agree with that plan....

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. No I am concerned about the ability of the gun toters to get a clean shot in

Can you guarantee they will always hit the right target?

[krispos42]

72. Victim tend to run away from the shooter, I would think

Kind of like Moses parting the sea, I guess.

But you raise a valid point. Shooting starts, everybody panics. Student/teacher draws pistol, aims at shooter...

and, because he or she is focusing so hard on the sights and the target, neglects to see the panicked student running up the aisle until the worst possible second.

This kind of possibility is what keeps many from carrying. They don't want the responsibility.

I don't know. I can make a pretty good guess as to how it will go down if nobody shoots back, though. "Not good" sums it up.

You might find this article interesting. "Heroic Consequences".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x153308

[sam sarrha]

22. criminalize Bullying, get rid of th Catch 22 NCLB program to failure, teach rational problem thought

teach problem solving, reinstate music programs, shop, art, treat them with respect.. teach them limits with a carrot stick, teach them parenting classes, home finance classes, job interview classes.. prepare them for an appropriate and effective life.

criminalize Bullying, treat it as it is, assault and torture. bully and be escorted out in cuffs by the police, and get probation. in my school all the real career bullies ended up in prison, 8 out of 10 were dead in 10 years, or doing hard time in state or federal prison..

provide alternate, no bull shit, schools, small classes.. to teach kids a trade or remedial classes to help them up to grade level.
places that you will be escorted out of you act like you don't want to be there. they did this at Ely NV and it almost emptied the high school, everybody wanted a class room that wasnt interupted constantly, a safe place where justice for bullys was SWIFT AND FIERCE..

[spin]

34. I like your approach.

All the ideas you present are possible solutions to the problem. If we try to find the underlying causes of the problems we face and work to
eliminate or reduce them, we could live in a better society.

Guns don't cause violence but they do facilitate it. The fear of violence causes people to purchase weapons for protection. More weapons lead to more tragic incidents involving children who access weapons not properly secured, people misusing weapons in moments of anger or drunkenness and accidents brought on by stupidity or unfamiliarity with the basic rules of gun safety. And of course, guns can be stolen by criminals who then misuse them causing even more people to by guns for self defense.

If we address violence and find ways to reduce it, we may find the demand for guns decreasing. I'm sure most people would rather spend money to purchase big screen TVs or computers than to spend it on a firearm. If we lived in a more peaceful nation, fewer people would view firearms as a necessity.

But one thing is for sure...if we define areas as gun free zones, we better make damn sure no one enters them with a firearm. Without enforcement a gun free zone merely advertises a shooting gallery.

[sam sarrha]

36. FACT: observing violence physically alters the brain as a survival function, you become violent to

survive in the environment you observe. this has Been pr oven with PET Scans

there is a wonderful book "Destructive Emotions:how we can overcome them" by Daniel Coleman. a ground breaking study, they discovered that since Freud the 'Entirety' of all the research done in Psychology failed to be done against any control group what so ever. most was done on college students whose motivation was for beer and drug money.

which is why insurance is really shy about paying for psychiatric treatment.. it simply doesn't work all that well.

the motivation of the Republicans is simply to repeal ALL the New Deal advances that produced the Middle Class. Education should be privatized, they will continue to destroy it till the only option is privitasation... in the schools and every other aspect of life, any and all public services, nothing private should exist that corporations cant take over and profit from, there should be no restrictions at all to corporations including workers rights to wages, hours, working conditions, pollution ..you have to read, Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine", it is a serious historical research study, 558 pages of which 92 pages are footnotes and index, it isn't a pulp political propaganda rag. IT IS THE BOOK OF THE CENTURY...!! IF YOU READ IT, WHEN PEOPLE SAY.."WHAT THE HELL IS GO'N ON??? YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

my previous post was based on my experience as a juvenile parole officer

[spin]

42. A question for someone with your experience:

Do you feel violent first person shooter games contribute to the violence in our society?

I agree that we are seeing the systematic destruction of the middle class. We seem to be headed to a more feudal society composed of the rich and privileged and everyone else.

I ordered "The Shock Doctrine" from Amazon. 138 of 174 customer reviews gave it a 5 star rating. Should be an interesting read.

[sam sarrha]

50. i believe that by far the worst problem is not understanding the nature of anger and its triggers.

First Person shooter video games are essentially games of skill and problem solving, some are highly developed. not necessarily or inherently a source of anger.

having said that.. i will admit that they are Habitual, and there are better things to do with your time.

the heart of the problem is our ignorance of the nature of anger, its source and resolution. the source is our mistaken notions of 'Self', the nature is biological, the resolution is practice training the mind, Meditation is the most effective, but art, music-learning to play an instrument with a teacher, and repetitious exercise as in running, jogging, swimming laps, riding a bicycle long distances/training/touring.
these things actually restructure the brain and it begins to operate differently.

i was a JPO in the middle 1980's. right when psychology had dismissed 'externalizing' anger as a method of getting rid of it, that had a popular name at the time..i forget. beating on a pillow with a tennis Marquette, work'n it out.. for instance. it only 'practiced' getting angry and gave people a hair trigger an an inclination to escalate.

i took the JPO job because it included a requirement to write a special project in two years. my project was a pilot study focusing on Meditation. the results were miraculous. so amazing that they stopped my study because it made their system look foolish.

during the two years i was there, the state juvenile system psychiatrist would always drop by my office and we would go somewhere else and he would grill me on my views about behavior, and anger.

here's some quotes from, "Working with Anger", $3 at http://www.amazon.com by Thubten Chodron
"...while the threat o harm may prompt a biological response, this response is not necessarily beneficial, nor is it innate within human brings. as mentioned above, Anger originates with the inappropriate attention that interprets in a distorted way. the body then produces adrenaline. with the mind as a motivator and the body as the cooperative condition, violent behavior then erupts.

on the other hand, when the ignorance that supports anger is eliminated thru the application of appropriate antidotes, then these responses do not occur in the mind, and the vicious cycle halts...a mind free of anger can more quickly find a good solution."

things get habitual really quick.. adrenaline can be down right addictive. here i my favorite quote..
"A negative thought continues and increases exponentially until replaced by a positive thought, however the positive thought must be cultivated." HHDL

Meditation is simply a method of training the mind.. an untrained mind is like a wild horse.. it can throw you/or others and stomp you. the mind is a tool, not the person using it.

i only have one hand of late, so i am having to type with one finger..

my take on this is that there are other "Minds", each have a function.. the conventional mind is not the Vehicle.. if you can train it to its proper place it is the key that opens to the others.

[spin]

52. The reason I asked abut first person shooters was

that in the mid 90's I played a computer game called "Wolfenstein 3D" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D which was an early first person shooter.

I felt I was programming myself to shoot first and ask questions later. A really bad idea since I own guns and have a concealed carry permit. I decided to devote my time to playing computer games such as "Civilization" and "Sim City". But to be honest, I've had many friends who were addicted to first person shooting games who suffered no ill effects.

Of course games have improved over the years. Currently my daughter and my two grandchildren are addicted to "World of Warcraft". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft This game is very advanced and not what could be described as a first person shooter. Violence is part of the game, but it's a fantasy violence and it's offset by many educational activities necessary to advance in the game.

I often wonder why we don't create computer games to teach students history or other studies. We seem to be locked into an educational system with a teacher and a classroom that has existed for at least 150 years. The only real change appears to be the loss of control of the students. You mentioned some solutions for this problem in your previous posts.

Do you believe, as I do, the solution to many of our current problems would be a major reform and upgrade of our educational system? If we could excite student interest in education by moving into the 21st century, and as you suggest eliminate misbehavior and bullies from disrupting classrooms...would this increase opportunity and reduce crime?

But perhaps such an effort would prove to be too successful and would be shut down like your pilot study focusing on Meditation.

Without good education, the middle class will shrink. The children of the rich will be sent to high quality private schools where they will receive an education far superior to that given to the average. Perhaps that's the plan.

[sam sarrha]

62. yes, the educational system is the key. my studies in Buddhism have informed me of some important

concepts, the Illusion of the 'concept of self', a real big ingredient of competition, greed, injustice, genocide. the falsehood of self lies in its transitory nature, you are not the person now you were at age 4, or 10, or 14, or 18, 25,40,50.. so when are you your self...?? anger is often a result of a mis-perception that the self has been wronged or disrespected or slighted somehow.. Buddhists believe that the misconception of self is the source of nearly all suffering in the world...

i am sure a wonderful system could be developed.. the Danes have a system of free education through PhD if you want.. total free medical care.. on 50% of income.. our hidden taxes go way beyond that, their society has the best equality of wealth distribution also..

but the Fascists here use education as a method of controlling us, i don't see much opportunity for change, just smaller classes and criminalizing bullying.. would improve it 100% NCLB WAS A TOTAL FAILURE in Texas during Gov BU$H.. they rigged the stats by neglecting to include the 48% HS dropout rate... it is simply a program to destroy the system for an excuse to privatize the schools.

..

[baldguy]

23. Have you ever seen LA Story?

[gratuitous]

26. The High Church weighs in

Thank you, oh true believers in the Myth of Redemptive Violence, where violence always overcomes violence, and hatred and anger triumph over hatred and anger. There's absolutely no way to argue with or discuss this kind of logic; it's self-proving and self-perpetuating.

[spoony]

30. Who are you talking about? Surely not the OP

who said "I really have my doubts that teachers with guns would be able to stop determined school shooters"?

[mvccd1000]

28. I don't think anyone would argue...

... that there are a number of factors that need to be addressed, apparently starting with mental health care.

Once the time for those things has passed, though, and you're in a room faced with a deranged shooter, it's a little late for those options.

What are you going to do then? Lay down and die like a good little (morally superior) victim?

Go ahead. If you had the choice to defend yourself - like those in Utah and other states do - and you chose not to, I'm not going to think you're morally superior. I'm going to think you're a dumbass.

By the way, why DOESN'T Utah suffer from school shootings? They allow CCW holders to carry in schools. Surely there must be teachers shooting students daily there? Please provide me some articles to read; I'd love to hear some support for the anti- arguments.

[LWolf]

29. No, thanks. nt

[dysfunctional press]

31. violent crime rates go down in areas where conceal-carry is allowed.

pretty simple stuff to understand.

[spin]

35. Some interesting links...

http://mchenry.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=37608

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3647/is_199607/ai_n8737084

http://www.ncpa.org/press/nr080900a.html

[Le Taz Hot]

32. Well, THERE'S a good idea!

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

38. Please cite exactly who said the quoted text in your subject line

Or is it just something you have synthesized from various things you have heard (in which case the quotation marks are inappropriate)?

[AngryOldDem]

43. Isn't that the whole idea behind concealed carry?

That is, if everyvbody is unsure who is packing, no one will draw their guns? Sort of like the mutually assured destruction theory, only on a much smaller scale?

IMO, that is a pretty flimsy reason to justify any kind of CCW law. To me, it just sets the stage for a John Ford-worthy Wild West Shootout.

[slackmaster]

45. No, that is not the whole idea behind concealed carry

Individuals carry weapons to protect themselves and others around them. It's not about protecting society in general.

That is, if everyvbody is unsure who is packing, no one will draw their guns?

That's just a silly right-wing talking point with nothing to back it up.

[spin]

54. If you were correct

not many tourists would come to Florida. Lots of people here carry weapons legally. Almost 500,000 people have the right to carry concealed
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/licensetypecount.html (the number of concealed weapons/ firearms is 4th from the bottom)

By your theory, all the Wild West shootouts should ruin the tourist trade. Strangely enough it doesn't, in fact it's booming. Check the figures: http://media.visitflorida.org/about/research/

Of course, the tourists have no idea how many of the Floridians that they see are carrying. After all the weapons are concealed.

Have a good day. Visit Florida when you have a chance.

[TexasObserver]

40. What a dumb idea. If teachers have guns, students will take them away from them and use them.

[elehhhhna]

41. ...or the teacher will simply be shot first.

[mvccd1000]

47. Like they do every day in Utah, where CCW holders CAN carry in schools?

Oh, wait a minute - they don't. Care to try an argument that actually has some merit?

[leftofthedial]

44. I think we should just install a tactical nuke in every classroom in Amurka

and give every teacher a remote clicker, or better yet, a dead man's switch, to set it off if anything starts going "weird."

The dead man's switch is great because no training is required.

A puny sidearm is insufficient for so many tactical situations.

I agree with the gun nuts on this one. EVERYONE should be armed to the teeth ALL THE TIME. Fully automatic weapons, .50 cal machine guns mounted on EVERY car and in every home, hand grenades in every teacher's desk drawer . . .

It will make violence worse temporarily, but it will eventually begin solving some of our overpopulation problems.

[leeroysphitz]

49. Maybe the casualties would simply double...

A crazy person is a crazy person whether or not anyone else in the room has a gun.

[yurbud]

51. but teacher suicides would go through the roof too.

[Kitty Herder]

55. School shootings would then be like the shoot out at the OK corral. Yippee! nt

[Lex]

56. If being armed kept you safe, then all our soldiers

would be alive right now.

[Iris]

57. Yeah. Just like there are no murders in states that have the death penalty.

because it's such a strong deterrent and all.

[MrSlayer]

65. Nonsense, you'd just take the teacher out first.

Then grab his gun. Now you have two weapons.

[mvccd1000]

66. And how, exactly, would you know that teacher was carrying a "concealed" pistol?

Isn't that the point of the word "concealed?"

Name some shootings recently (or ever) where the teacher was shot first. Oops, you probably can't, because I don't know that there have been any. At Virginia Tech, though, one of the teachers was attempting to use a table to block the door so the shooter couldn't come in when he was killed.

I'll bet a gun would have been more effective than a table in that situation, don't you?

[MrSlayer]

67. You may or may not know but making it a common practice would make one err on the side of caution.

Now, once you take out the initial teacher and procure his weapon you may indeed have other armed teachers to contend with. So you bar the door and lay waste to the rest of the class before you shoot it out with them. Even if some of the people in class are armed you should at least get a few before you buy it. If you're really good you'll already know who is armed and target them before the initial shock wears off. Even if everyone is armed, a surprise attack could still rack up the body count. And then when everyone starts shooting you'll have the inevitable collateral damage.

The problem with all this is that it's far too late to get rid of guns, it could never be done. So, in an armed society you are just going to have to deal with these occasional eruptions of deadly violence. There really is nothing that can prevent such events. Not in a free and open society. At the end of the day the maniac is still going to get someone, all you can do is hope to cut down the amount of victims.

[mvccd1000]

68. I agree.

With your second paragraph in its entirety.

I suspect we only disagree on the way to cut down on the number of victims.

Arming pilots was supposed to result in chaos, too, as I recall. So far, it's been a non-story.
States becoming "Shall-Issue" for CCW permits was supposed to result in shootouts in the streets. Hasn't happened (not with the CCW holders, anyway - I guess the criminals didn't bother to change with the law).

[MrSlayer]

69. In a perfect world it would make sense to arm teachers.

In my above scenario the teacher may have honed his reflexes to the level of Wild Bill Hickok and taken the maniac out Deadwood style. While also possessing the discipline and instinct to know he's right, every time. If teachers are armed it may help to diffuse certain school gun events other than attempts at mass murder but would also probably cause as many problems as it solves. It's just adding another element of danger that should be absent from educational pursuit. Too many bad things can happen even by accident when you introduce a gun into such an environment. In the isolated psycho situations all you are really looking to do with it is keep the victim level down. Considering how rare such things are, it's probably best to not have guns in the classroom. Having some well trained armed guards in the schools might be a better way to go.