Why isn't 60mph fast enough on a snow covered road?

[European Socialist]

I'm tired of being passed by semi trucks and everyone else in the world and then hearing about the multi-car pileup on the news later.

[DS1]

1. heh

yeah

I usually do 60/65 on a clear day

[Clovis Sangrail]

2. because you die faster doing 90mph ? /nt

[dysfunctional press]

3. then stay out of the left lane...and turn off your blinker.

nt

[seriousstan]

5. Speak up sonny, she can't hear you.

I guess the real answer is, because they have somewhere to go and the skill to drive in snow.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

28. i'm a zamboni driver (retired)...i enjoy driving in snow.

i haven't kept track of how many miles i've driven, but it's a bunch(for a non-trucker)- i've been to both coasts twice(from chicago) and home again but i've never had an accident that was the result of speed. and only one that was my fault. two if you count the time my tire came off on the tollway because a (now former) friend had taken the lugnuts off as a "joke"- he didn't think i'd make it to the corner, let alone 25 miles away on the expressway.

i've been in three accidents where the car was totaled, but only one when i was driving- but it wasn't my fault- an 85 year-old man who commuted 40 miles each way for his job as a cashier at a car wash took a blind left turn directly into my path- and i was driving a friend's car to work while he was out of town to appear on "wheel of fortune". unfortunately he didn't win a car.

i was in a motorcycle accident, where a guy in a station wagon went thru a stop sign and hit me kinda broadside at an angle- if not for my highway bars, my leg probably would have been crushed. as it was i just flew over his car, landed on my (helmeted) head, breaking my collar bone and shoulder blade- which are also the worst injuries i've ever sustained in an accident.

i've been struck 3 times while sitting at 3 different red lights- twice by illegal immigrants, and twice by drunks(one of the illegals was drunk).

i've had two cars destroyed when they were parked along the street- one was smashed by a big bundle of cardboard that fell off the back of a semi hauling the bundles to be recycled; and the other was smashed by a drunk while i was at a new year's eve party at a friend of a friend's when there was a wreck out front. my car was one of three that had been plowed into by the drunken service manager of a nearby ford dealer who was joyriding in a souped-up mustang that was in for servicing.

all in all though, they can be rather cathartic.
and often profitable.

[CatholicEdHead]

4. Then stay away from the I-90/39 interchange at Cty Road N

south of Madison Wisconsin.

[Romulox]

6. Oh Jesus! Are you the guy in the minivan going 50 mph in the far left lane on I-94?

:eyes:

[European Socialist]

9. No, I'm the guy with white knuckles getting off at the next exit.

[Romulox]

12. Thank god! NOW I can pass!

Just kidding. I'm a 5 MPH over kind of guy, and the speed demons and the elderly "traffic cops" both piss me off.

I have noticed a lot of elderly passive aggressive assholes in the metro-Detroit area, however. There is a stretch of the Southfield freeway just north of 94 that is notorious for being a speed trap. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to pass somebody going 50 mph who suddenly accelerates when I get in the left lane.

You sure you aren't one of those guys? :shrug:

[high density]

7. Didn't you hear? Snow makes rubber grip the road better

I'm confused by it as well. I'll admit that I zoom around when it's good out, but I'm a completely different driver in the snow. Too many people are overconfident in the snow. This is especially true of those in trucks and SUVs that think their vehicles can stop magically because they've got 4x4 or AWD.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

26. I know what you mean about being over confident. I went today going

about the same speed as I usually do. There was a sheet of ice by the stop sign. I slowed a little, and everything locked. Brakes and steering wheel were both rendered useless. Ran straight into a high curb with my front right wheel. It threw off the alignment, the steering wheel has been violently shaking ugh :banghead:

[sandnsea]

8. It's too fast on any kind of snow for any vehicle

But you can't call people fucking idiots for being fucking idiots anymore.

[Romulox]

11. No offense, but I doubt you've been to Michigan in February; life can't stop for snow. nt

[sandnsea]

16. I lived in MT for 15 years

60 in the snow is too damn fast.

[Richard Steele]

31. Running 60mph in the snow is a fine way to cause life to stop.

Too bad the stoppages aren't limited to the idiots running 60.

[Romulox]

40. How is a guy from NC gonna lecture people in Michigan on how to drive in the snow?

In the first instance, we may not be eskimos, but "the snow" doesn't really tell you much. How much snow? Flurries? Mixed with freezing rain? Etc.

So to make generalizations about how fast is safe "in the snow" is very silly. And as everyone who knows what they're talking about will tell you: it's ice (not snow) that is the chief danger on winter roads.

[Richard Steele]

41. Wow, you don't learn from your mistakes very well, do ya?

I didn't spend the first few decades of my life in warm, sunny NC.
Figure it out.

[Romulox]

43. I don't see any mistake. You're the one who's make generalizations about what is safe "in the snow"

I'm just pointing out that these sorts of generalizations don't betray a deep knowledge of the subject.

[Richard Steele]

47. You've made the same mistake TWICE in this subthread alone, and had it pointed out both times...

But you still can't see it? Wow, that's pretty sad. :(

I guess it's true: there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Romulox]

49. Thanks Yoda, but wouldn't it be easier to just admit you don't know what you're talking about?

:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

51. Such an admission: EASIER indeed,if compared to a dicussion with you it was, but UNTRUE it would be.

Everyone here at DU with as much sense as God gave a GOOSE
has long since recognized that you're talking out yer ass.
Deliberately, with malice aforethought.

And doing a piss-poor job of it. You'd be well advised
to take your minor-league asshattery back to AOL where
it might occasionally IMPRESS someone.

Because it sure as hell ain't impressing anyone here at DU.

[Romulox]

53. Well, aren't you being creepy and melodramatic!

We all make mistakes occasionally; let it go!

[ecstatic]

50. In the Southeast, everything shuts down for snow

People cram up the grocery stores and stockpile food at the first sign of approaching snow... And did I mention they can't drive very well either?

[idovoodoo]

52. So who are the fucking idiots in that picture?

...

[razors edge]

10. Why are 90%

of the people doing 20MPH over the limit on I-75 north in Toledo sporting MI plates?

You folks just drive like nuts up there, must be a lack of oxygen or sumptin.

;)

[A HERETIC I AM]

13. Maybe because most of I 75 north of Toledo is IN Michigan. n/t

[razors edge]

18. All of it north of Toledo would be.

[knitter4democracy]

15. The ones doing that don't know Ohio cops.

The only tickets I've ever gotten were in Ohio. You all are crazy about that. Five over can get you a ticket, whereas in Michigan, that's the expected speed most days, ten to twenty on certain highways.

[razors edge]

17. I was just thinking about that too,

are the Ohio SHP saving these guys up to make the quotas later in the month? I never see them getting tickets at the rate we do.

[European Socialist]

22. Ohio sucks with their unjust tickets. I had two myself.

[noonwitch]

42. We just can't wait to get home after eating Tony Packo's chili dogs and buying cheaper cigarettes.

After all, it's not like there's anything to look at between Detroit and Toledo. Temperance is such a happening town.

I slow down driving in Ohio. My dad warned me about the Ohio State Police, although I rarely see cops anywhere on US 23 between Findlay and Upper Sandusky.

[knitter4democracy]

14. Ohmygosh, yes! It was awwwwful last night on 94.

I had to go pick up my dog from my mom in K'Zoo from Battle Creek, and the road was slick and nasty. The fastest I felt safe going was 50 (and not all the time), and I have new tires and AWD. I kept getting passed like I was sitting still. It was slick! I saw three cars off the road, but why would anyone slow down for that? :shrug: Seriously insane.

[tech3149]

24. Rule # 1, go as fast as you can comfortably

I've been run off the road at 70 mph because you couldn't tell where the road was. I may have been lucky, skilled, or just understood what I was doing. The after-action report isn't conclusive.

Rule # 2 Don't expect that the other drivers can read your mind or adjust for every stupid thing you do.

Rule # 3 If things don't go right, he who was going the fastest owns the mostest responsibility.

Rule# 4 Physics matter, If you don't understand the laws, don't try and disprove them.

Rule # 5 If you can't afford to pay for a mistake, do everything in your power not to make one.

Afterthought 0.5 Learn your own skills and limitations and make the most of them. Some people have great hand/eye coordination and can deal with the world around them post haste. Some may not be so quick in reacting to situations, but see them coming. Use your strengths but correct your weaknesses.

Stupid recommendation #1 Choose the best equipment you need for the driving environment you have to live with. If you don't need to deal with feet-deep snow more than a month or two a year, get a good M/S tread and mount them on standby rims. If they don't ignore the roads M/S tread should be good. If they don't salt and just throw down aggregate M/S tread might be all you need. It might be good to get a set of chains (plastic or metal)to keep in the trunk if you get stuck.

[knitter4democracy]

25. Chains of all kinds are illegal in this area.

Otherwise, I'd use them at times. I've also seriously considered winter tires, but we just don't have the money for a set of tires to sit around for half the year.

[TheCowsCameHome]

19. Get a big 'ol SUV and snap 'er into four wheel drive on an icy road

and nothing can ever go wrong.

Really.

It says so right here in the owners manual.

[The Gunslinger]

23. You just described what happens in N.C. during an ice storm

Nothing but 4wd suv's and pickups on the side of the roads. Thankfully we don't get ice storms too often.

[Batgirl]

21. I've had plenty of time to meditate upon this very question

while sitting motionless in traffic waiting for wreckage to be cleared from the expressway during the morning commute, which typically occurs before the salt trucks have made the roads safe for morons. My morning commute has often doubled from 1 to 2 hours this winter, and not because of slow drivers poking along in the left lane with their blinkers on, but rather because of those who seem baffled by the notion that ice is slippery. This morning I had the opportunity to catch up on my meditation 4 different times while attempting to drive south along a 30-miles stretch of US23, waiting for crumpled wrecks to be loaded onto trucks and hauled away.

The thing I really don't understand is how someone can pass all these wrecks and still drive like they're James Bond delivering an organ for emergency transplant.

[Eurobabe]

27. They long for the autobahn?

:shrug:

[El Pinko]

29. I don't sweat it much.

I don't live in snow country, but when I lived in Miami they drove like bats outta hell, because the police do NOT enforce the spees limits on the freeway.

But I drive a little over the speed limit in good weather, a little under in rain, and if it was snowing, I'd be slow as molasses.


I keep my car-length per 10 mph between me and the next car, even if it means being passed. So if there is a pileup, I have plenty of time to react and not be a part of it.

If people want to be suicidal that's their problem. I don't have to take part in it.

[CRF450]

30. You couldn't pay me a thousand dollars from me to take my Trans Am on the snow!

I have never been so scared in my life taking that car on a icy road, NEVER again. I'll take the Dakota and put it in 4x4 mode next time.

[mvccd1000]

32. Ha! I learned to drive in a '77 Trans Am in the winter in MI.

Nothing as much fun as a powerful RWD car on a snow-packed road. :)

[CRF450]

33. Ha, yeah, if your going less than 10mph.

Great handling on dry roads, not so much on the slippery roads.

[mvccd1000]

34. Didn't say it handles great, just said it was fun. :)

I ended up going the wrong way more than once in my learning process, but I made it through in one piece. A few years later I taught my little sister how to "drive" the car sideways down the road by goosing the throttle just a little bit at the right time to keep the rear end hanging out without coming around. (Along with other tips like don't hit the gas or the brake right away if you feel the tires losing grip, etc.)

Some years later she avoided an accident due to a skid and called to thank me for teaching her that; she said whatever I had showed her taught her how to get through a skid with some amount of control, and she saved her car because of it.

That was kinda cool. :)

[CRF450]

35. I get what you say. People should be taught how to control a car in a slide,

And thats a good way to learn in a place away from population! I havent gotten in a situaiton like that yet with traffic. But sometimes when I'm in town and it had just stopped raining. I'll find a dead empty parking lot and just do a bunch of controlled power slides and whatnot. The key is knowing when exactly to turn the steering wheel to keep the car from spinning out of control. Too bad drivers ed doesn't teach kids how to "control" a car.

[mvccd1000]

36. I always thought the same thing.

One of my jobs in the auto industry required me to take a small amount of advanced driver's training; controlling a skid in a turn when the rear wheels lock, ABS malfunctions, driving up and down curbs at 45 mph, etc.

When I got done, I remember being appalled that they don't teach useful skills like those in regular driver's training. I'd love to take one of the 2-3 day classes at Bondurant or somewhere that teaches cops and bodyguards how to drive in various situations that most of us don't encounter on a regular basis.

[Romulox]

45. Good idea. Up in Michigan, we usually take kids to an unplowed parking lot for just that reason. nt

[CRF450]

46. Now that I think about it...

Maybe we should push this idea to our candidates to start mandating tougher driver training, and setup a course for different emergancy situations. That wasy, we wont have so many shitty drivers, and our roads will be a little safer.

[planetc]

37. It all depends on whether you see a car as a means of self-expression, or

... whether you see it as a means of transportation. If you're a self-expressionist, the whole thing is a game, with rules you can explore the bending of. If you're a transportationist, the car is a few tons of metal which make contact with the road at four, and only four, points, called tires. Here in the delightful snowy north, we transportationists calmly observe vehicles passing us on doubtful road surfaces--and sometimes we see these vehicles in the ditch by the side of the road. If we see that they are calling for help on their cell phones, we drive slowly onward. Well, one lady I know waved cheerfully to the SUV driver in the ditch who had passed her a few minutes before. She's less inhibited than I am. Physics is physics. It is what it is. Best of luck out there on the road!

Of course, the multi-car pileups are probably worsened by driving closer to the car in front of you than is strictly safe. I love to reflect that I don't have a lot of control over how close the driver behind me is, short of pulling off the road to let that driver pursue his or her objectives in front of my car. But I have complete control over how close I am to the car in front of me. I find a quarter of a mile an ideal distance--with that size gap, I have a few spare seconds to actually enjoy the scenery I'm driving past.

[JNelson6563]

38. I've seen it end badly

I'm up in Traverse and we were heading downstate one year, Christmas at Grandma's. Weather and roads were very bad. Young guy blows by us and everyone else. Not long after, we drive by a horrible wreck, this guy's vehicle wrapped around a tree. It was terrible.

Julie

[Ganja Ninja]

39. It's not the speed your traveling at, it's the fact that you're ...

in front of them that spurs them on. How many times have you been passed by someone only to watch them slow down once they've gone by you?

[Romulox]

44. By the same token: It is NOT safe to drive within inches of the car in front of you

in inclement weather, even if you are going 20 mph under the speed limit! :think:

[Elidor]

48. Something about bad weather challenges some people

I see it in heavy rain, too: the pack on the interstate will sometimes move much faster in a downpour than during sunny times. I'll be trying to see the end of my hood and people will be plowing past me at 70 or 80 like it's nothing, sending huge waves of water against the side of my car.

One day in Dallas, Texas the rainwater got so bad that we all started floating down the street. And I was glad. GLAD. Because they couldn't speed past me anymore. But it's not a good feeling to be floating down the street in your daddy's car. "Well, dad, you see...I was floating. It's not my fault."

I learned to drive in snow and ice (Denver) and I think you have to pick your moments carefully. There are times when you can push it, but why push it? It's best to be calm and leisurely in the snow and ice. And drive a big old ugly green Impala from the 70s. Or a 75 Chevy Malibu Classic. The full houseboat, with benches and foghorn. People will magically stay out of your way when you're in a car like that. On those rare occasions when they don't, you might not even notice you've been hit.