John McCain blew up the USS Forrestal - doesn't anybody care?

[Kolesar]

I watched a two hour special on the History Channel last year, about the disastrous fire that almost sank the USS Forrestal back in the '60s.

On that show, they said that the video shows the first missile coming from Lt John McCain's A-4 Skyhawk, hitting another aircraft and starting the fire.

I've been on carriers and I know they are bascially disasters waiting to happen, accidetns and fires happen almost daily (and WERE a daily occurence on the Forrestal when I was on her). What I don't figure is - how come none of the politicos have tried to swiftboat McCain for this? It's prime sleaze politics waiting for a target. Is it because all the swiftboaters work for the GOP?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=20080220103307AASl5A3&grp_name=LakeLiberals&grp_spid=1600365373&grp_cat=/Government___Politics/By_Country_or_Region/U.S._States/Ohio/Politics&grp_user=1

We report, you decide.

edit:Created a styled, indented blockquote

[conscious evolution]

1. How many American sailors

did he kill that day?

[Hydra]

2. Because if a GOP member does something wrong

"It's not important"

Double standard is getting old, IMO.

[Lasher]

3. Woah, this is good scoop!

What a collosal fuckup! Amazing that I've never heard of this before.

[catnhatnh]

4. Only pilot of the Vietnam War....

...both sides wasted a missile on...

[truebrit71]

30. ROFL!!!!

:rofl:

[butterfly77]

5. K&R...

[Submariner]

6. If McCrazy was GOP fodder they would promote the Prisoner of War fiasco he's embroiled in

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/

[karynnj]

32. Those people are cons

The Vietnam war has an unusually low rate of MIAS. These people attacked McCain first because he doubted them - they eventually were against the entire committee headed by Kerry that found that after a very serious investigation that there were no signs of prisoners being held in the 1990s. It was this committee that pushed Vietnam to make a very serious difficult attempt to repatriate as many American remains as possible - including Dean's brother's.

The fiasco is not McCain's but the fact that there are people willing to prey on the grief of family's who have loved ones whose remains have not been found.

[wuushew]

7. This does not appear to be true

At 10:52 A.M. on July 29, the second launch was being readied when a Zuni rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the flight deck aft of the island. The missile streaked across the deck into a 400 gallon belly fuel tank on a parked A-4D Skyhawk. The ruptured tank spew highly flammable JP-5 fuel onto the deck which ignited spreading flames over the flight deck under other fully loaded aircraft ready for launch

http://www.forrestal.org/fidfacts/page13.htm

[dodger501]

9. I saw a film clip of this

A missile shot into the ass-end of McCain's plane . . . explosion ensues and we see McCain scrambling on all fours through the cockpit to the front of the plane and onto the deck. He was the victim.

[Kolesar]

11. Over time we tend to remember false things as true ...

http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2007/09/07/04

The Truth of False
September 07, 2007


Good myths die hard. Recent psychological studies suggest journalists' attempts to set the record straight may in fact be perpetuating falsehoods. Shankar Vedantam, columnist at the Washington Post, explains.


BOB GARFIELD: Americans may or may not be as sleep-deprived as drug makers claim, but if it were a myth you could try to quash it with the truth. That's what the Centers for Disease Control Prevention recently did. They sent out a flyer listing various facts and myths about the flu vaccine and labeled them "true or false." But a study at the University of Michigan found that the CDC flyer actually did nothing to change people's minds and may have even spread vaccine myths to more people.

Shankar Vedantam, a reporter for The Washington Post, explains that right after reading the flyer, people mostly remembered the false statements as false.

SHANKAR VEDANTAM: But about 30 minutes later, older people started to remember some of the false statements as true, and three days later, very large numbers of older people and significant numbers of younger people also started remembering increasing numbers of myths as true.

The true statements did not suffer the same kind of deterioration with time. In other words, over time we tend to remember false things as true but not true things as false.

BOB GARFIELD: Hmm — well, I guess there's some hope in that. By what mechanism is this taking place?

SHANKAR VEDANTAM: The mind relies on a number of rules of thumb, and one of the rules of thumb that it uses is that things that are more easily recalled are true even if the context in which they originally heard the statement was that the statement is false.

BOB GARFIELD: Now, if I understand your piece, when people hear a statement involving a negative - let's say Saddam was not connected to 9/11 - and they hear it often enough, somehow the "not" disappears.

SHANKAR VEDANTAM: That's right. What happens, unfortunately, is our denial of the myth ends up repeating the myth and makes the myth itself more accessible to people's memory. And furthermore, as the separate study that you note points out, what happens very often is that the "not" in the sentence essentially falls off with time in many people's memories.
...snip...

There's more, and the audio link, too.

The story is out there, John. Deal with it.

[RamboLiberal]

43. Sorry but what you posted is totally bogus

I've seen that History Channel show numerous times with commentary by many involved on the ship including McCain. The film from the ship shows the missile firing off from another plane and hitting McCain's plane. Find the video or go look up the info in the book "Sailors to the End".

[jgraz]

8. And yet we have pro-Hillary DUers calling him a "War Hero" in an attempt to take down Obama

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=95577&mesg_id=95577

Just pathetic.

[bmbmd]

13. I think Obama called Sen. McCain

a "true American hero" last night. Just saying.

[jgraz]

14. He didn't follow it with "and that's why I'm going to lose"

[karynnj]

34. He is a war hero

and neither of the Clintons or Obama are.

[A HERETIC I AM]

38. Of course, that all depends on your perspective.

There are die-hard Marines that call the Purple Heart Medal an "Enemy marksmanship award". (learned from a conversation with one) Meaning, you aren't supposed to get them. If you do, you didn't do your job (shoot the enemy before he shoots you).

I don't deny what happened to McCain was horrible, but who is the real "Hero"? The guy that gets shot down after only a few missions or the one who flew scores of sorties, never got shot down but shot down numerous other enemy planes?

I have an acquaintance, an F4 driver from the same squadron or wing or whatever who knew McCain at Miramar. Perhaps I should start a thread on the stories he has told me. The short of it is that when news came to Miramar that McCain was shot down and captured, the response from many who knew him was akin to "Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy".:sarcasm:

[karynnj]

52. I think he was more a hero as a POW.

Still, I would bet that had right wingers been told Kerry's and McCain's stories without knowing their names or party affiliations - there is no doubt who they would see as a hero.

After all the SBVT stuff, could your acquaintance have "created" that memory because he is politically not happy with McCain? (There I am thinking of the difference between what people said of Kerry in about 2002 when Brinkley interviewed many of them and what the same people said in 2004. It is clear though that Kerry's guys liked him.)

[A HERETIC I AM]

55. Could he have "created" the memory? Perhaps. Except that apparently there were dozens of other

aviators that knew McCain, the flew with him and trained with him that felt the same way.

I understand the point you are making and it is a valid one, to be sure, but I know this person fairly well (I say he is an acquaintance because we know each other, speak regularly and have a cordial relationship, but I won't say we are "friends") and it is my opinion that he is honest and forthright. I have no reason to doubt his recollections. This gentleman was an F4 Phantom pilot who flew off of carriers on missions over Viet Nam just like McCain.

There was a lot of resentment of McCain primarily because it was felt he was a sub-par aviator who got a post flying for the Navy because of who his daddy was. (A 4-Star Admiral in the US Navy)

[karynnj]

57. I stand corrected you are privy to far more real information than me

I was likely bending over backwards to be fair due to my horror at how Senator Kerry was treated. That you know the man well counts a lot. Your point that he was favored due to his dad is very valid.

It is also clear that the truth of how unethical he really is coming out this evening.

[focusfan]

53. Big deal I would rather have a president that has not been in the military

[jmowreader]

58. I'd rather have one who HAD been in...

assuming, of course, that the person in question is a Democrat.

I don't count Shrub's service as "being in the military" even though he nominally was; anyone who joins the National Guard during a foreign war and puts down "I do not volunteer for overseas service" is just dodging the draft.

And with that in mind, we currently have a whole administration full of serious draft evaders. Look where it got us.

[tuckessee]

80. I agree.

This is the United States of America, a democratic republic - not Sparta or Prussia.

[Froward69]

10. Patience patience...

Have no fear we are gathering info to be used when it will be most effective. have you heard about Mcaint's Wife and her opiate addictions?

[maui9002]

36. And what would be the relevance of Cindy McCain's drug issue?

which was well publicized here in AZ; from my point of view, she went through a very public and humiliating experience simply because her husband was a politician. If she had been married to someone not in the public eye, she would have escaped the scrutiny. I just don't see what relevance it has to John McCain's running for President.

[momster]

37. If She'd Been Someone Else

say a woman of color...she'd *still* be in jail.

[maui9002]

54. Okay, but if that's true, I still ask the same question

What does her issue with drugs have to do with John McCain? If you're against the woman of color going to jail for this problem (which I assume you would be), you shouldn't change your position because the person is rich and white.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

59. I love how you agree with the premise. You apparently don't have to worry about loved ones being

jailed because they're not rich spouses of politicians.

[maui9002]

62. What's your point?

My original post asked why Cindy McCain's drug issue was relevant for a presidential campaign in which her husband was running. Is your point that Cindy McCain should be fair game for more public humiliation because she's rich? Or is your point that a poor person wouldn't get the same treatment that Cindy McCain received, and that a more just legal system would treat both equally? If it's the former, then shame on you. If it's the latter, fine, but that's not relevant to the question I asked.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. LOL, telling anyone here they should ashamed and demanding lockstep adherence to your personal

rules of discourse on a discussion board upon immediately arriving here is quite revealing.

Your outrage meter set point is rather low. Welcome to DU, enjoy your stay! :hi:

[maui9002]

73. My posts here are just my opinion

And I'm not demanding anything. But it is frustrating for a relative newcomer to put out an opinion that raises what I felt was a legitimate question, and get mostly responses that question why I made the post instead of responding to the post. I don't like personal attacks on political candidates, and I especially don't like personal attacks on the spouses or other family members of political candidates, and in my opinion, the original post in this thread and the post about Cindy McCain fall into that category. There are a number of posts to another thread about attacking Cindy McCain that take a different viewpoint, which while I disagee with, at least address the issue rather than the poster's motives.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

78. Funny, I don't see you jumping in and decrying the internecine attacks here on one or the other

Democratic candidates. Until you stick up for Democratic candidates or their spouses right here at DU, I'll reserve the right to view your posts vehemently defending McCain and his wife with a touch of skepticism.

[momster]

61. American Drug Policy is Ridiculous

And, no, I don't think people should be thrown in jail for being addicted to drugs. Stealing from your charity, however, yes, jail time for that.

[maui9002]

63. I was under the impression that this thread was about John McCain

It began with what I believe (and the author admits as much in a later post) was an untrue and unfair attack on John McCain. I responded because I believe, very strongly, that attacks of this kind, like the one on John Kerry, are despicable. And I don't think it makes it right just because the target happens to be a Republican rather than a Democrat. Then another post in this thread raises the issue of Cindy McCain's drug use. I asked the question why her drug issue is relevant, since she is not running for President, and I'm lectured about American drug laws and how poor people get screwed while rich people get favorable treatment. I'll just leave it like this. John McCain has plenty of issues he can be attacked for, but his almost being incinerated on the Forrestal ain't one of them, and his wife (and all other spouses) should be off limits. If you want to argue drug policy, there's a board for that, where I think these points would be more relevant.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

65. Did you join DU just for the opportunity to defend and protect McCain?

:rofl:

[maui9002]

71. Nope, I think McCain would be dangerous

Because he's wrong on the war in Iraq, he's wrong on most domestic issues, and he's compromised his relative independence by pandering to the conservative right during his quest for the presidency. In addition, if you want to attack him on issues that aren't policy based, he's had some difficulties with ethical issues; see this morning's NYT and Washington Post for the most recent story and I'm sure McCain's role in the Keating 5 scandal will be rehashed during the campaign. And as for attacks on candidate's spouses, I'm bipartisan. If there were an attack on Michelle Obama similar to what was suggested above re Cindy McCain, I'd defend her right to be left alone. The reason I made the original post had nothing to do with any suport for John McCain; it has to do with my disgust with the attacks on John Kerry (as well as Teresa Kerry) during the 2004 election, which were similarly untrue and unfair. That being said, I guess once again I'm disappointed that you, like other posters, have ignored the question I raised in my post (why is Cindy McCain's drug problem relevant to a presidential campaign in which her husband is a candidate) and chosen to respond by accusing me of being a McCain supporter (which is just not true).

[Vickers]

69. Are you this defensive about the attacks on, say, Michelle Obama?

Just curious.

:eyes:

Welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[maui9002]

72. Yes, I think spouses should be relatively off limits

See my response above for additional explanation. The only exception would be if the spouse makes a statement on behalf of the candidate, which still wouldn't justify a personal attack in my view, or in other special circumstances (like when your spouse happens to be a former president).

[Froward69]

68. it goes to his

credibility... burying the story, never actually being punished. goes to show GOP hypocrisy.

[JDPriestly]

12. The facts are unclear.

This author blames McCain:

What have sealed Navy records given to the neo-cons to blackmail McCain? Plenty, according to eyewitness on the USS Forrestal.

According to an eyewitness to the Navy's worst fire disaster that killed 134 sailors and injured 62, McCain and the Forrestal's skipper, Capt. John K. Beling, were warned about the danger of using M-65 1000-lb. bombs manufactured in 1935, which were deemed too dangerous to use during World War II and, later, on B-52 bombers. The fire from the Zuni misfire resulted in the heavy 1000 pounders being knocked loose from the pylons of McCain's A-4, which were only designed to hold 500-pound bombs.

During the fighting of the fire and while VF-74 and VF-11 were still counting their dead, McCain was helicoptered off the Forrestal to the USS Oriskany, which suffered a major fire on October 27, 1966, that killed 44 sailors. In that event, thousand pound bombs were jettisoned away from the fire but the lessons of the Oriskany went unheeded by the Forrestal's officers, including McCain, who served with the VA-163 Saints on board the Oriskany when the fire on that vessel occurred. On October 26, 1967, McCain was shot down over North Vietnam during a bombing sortie from the Oriskany.

http://bushstole04.com/Editorials/why_is_mccain.htm

But, Wikipedia portrays McCain as a victim:

About 10:50 (local time), while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19°9′5″N, 107°23′5″E,<2> a Zuni rocket was accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom II by an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power. It flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk, either Aircraft No. 405 piloted by LCDR Fred D. White or No. 416 piloted by LCDR John McCain,<3> which was waiting to launch.<2><4> The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of pressurized fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. More ruptured fuel tanks spewed volatile jet fuel from beneath aircraft onto the deck, feeding the flames. Some of the liquid sloshed down into the hangar deck where it posed a deadly hazard for men stationed there. Huge gusts of fire shot into the air along the flight deck, trapping pilots in their aircraft with no recourse but to escape through the flames or be incinerated in their cockpits. LCDR Fred D. White, waiting to launch in Aircraft No. 405, leaped out of his Skyhawk. Other men came to his aid but as the first bomb exploded it killed the pilot. LCDR Herbert A. Hope of VA-46 (and operations officer of CVW-17) jumped out of the cockpit of his Skyhawk between explosions, rolled off the flight deck and into a safety net. Making his way down below to the hangar deck, he gallantly took command of a firefighting team. "The port quarter of the flight deck where I was" he recalled, "is no longer there."<2> With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe.

The impact of the zuni had also dislodged two of the thousand-pound bombs, which now lay in the burning fuel. The fire teams chief, Gerald Farrier, without benefit of protective clothing immediately used a PKP fire extinguisher to knock down the fuel fire in an attempt to rescue the pilot and prevent the bombs from exploding. The fire team normally had almost three minutes to reduce the temperature of the bombs, but the chief did not realize the condition of the bombs had altered this significantly until one split open. The chief called for the fire team to withdraw but the bomb exploded seconds later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

The question is how much McCain really had to do with the decision to use the inappropriate bombs.

[Kolesar]

16. very diligent

don't miss my answer upthread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2895669&mesg_id=2895919
:)

[0007]

20. Even the freepers know that John McCain was a big fucking coward

that day. He ran and hide. Get the straight poop and go to freerepublic.com and broach the subject. They have some pretty good stories with links.

[truedelphi]

23. The freepers hate John McCain

Given that hatred, I don't think I would rely on anything they say as being true.

Or even close to true.

[karynnj]

35. Because Free Republic is such a good source?

They were wrong when they lied about John Kerry and they are wrong when they lie about John McCain. There are PLENTY of things that make McCain a bad choice, smearing him is wrong.

[0007]

19. You're right on the money.

[RamboLiberal]

46. Unless McCain was the skipper or the CAG of the ship

he had no frigging say in the bombs that were loaded on the ship or on his plane. Trying to tar him with this is as idiotic as the Swiftboaters who lied out their asses about Kerry.

[yardwork]

15. Correct. All swiftboaters work for the GOP.

[Hangingon]

17. You should check the facts a little more.

I think McCain's A-4 was hit by a Zuni rocket from a F-4.

[maui9002]

18. Not true and unfair

There are plenty of reasons to attack John McCain due to his policies; attacking him for his service is not only offbase but out of bounds. For the same reasons it was inappropriate to attack John Kerry for his service in Vietnam (it was clear that the attacks were not due to what he did or didn't do in Vietnam, but what he said when he came home), it's inappropriate to attack John McCain. How John McCain can be blamed for the Forrestal tragedy defies common sense and the evidence. It's as bad as the several people who've posted or commented on radio that they don't like McCain because he doesn't bend his arms--which, of course, is irrelevant to his politics--not to mention that his arms are permanently disfigured due to the injuries he received when he was shot down and the North Vietnamese not providing appropriate medical care. If you objected to the attacks on John Kerry, you should object to these types of attacks on John McCain.

[A HERETIC I AM]

21. AGreed. McCain was not responsible and was in fact almost killed

in the fire onboard the Forrestal.

Kudos on your post.

[Kolesar]

22. The idea is to make him deny it

good luck with that, John.

[Mugu]

26. I need a little clarification.

Am I reading your post correctly? You admit to knowingly spreading a falsehood about a man that almost lost his life in a awful accident?

[RamboLiberal]

47. You're no better than the Swiftboaters!

Don't rewrite history! Let's not go where the Repukes went in 2004.

Unfit for Command reveals a John Kerry you don't know-the true John Kerry that his political image-makers are trying to hide. But the veterans who served with him know better, and in Unfit for Command, they tell their story, including:

* How all three of John Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, easily treated with band-aids, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization
* How captured Americans were tortured in North Vietnamese prisons for not endorsing John Kerry's false testimony-before the United States Senate-about alleged American war crimes
* How John Kerry carried a typewriter and an 8-mm home movie camera with him to Vietnam so he could record his own exaggerated version of his war exploits and film staged reenactments of his "combat actions" to advance his political career
* Why John Kerry's photograph hangs in a place of honor in the Vietnamese communist "War Remnants Museum" in Saigon

Want to know the real John Kerry? Read Unfit for Command-and prepare to be shocked.

Still on Amazon.com

[AngryAmish]

75. There is a photo of John Kerry in the "war Remnants Museum"

A congressional delegation was there after the war. I think McCain is in the photo also.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. And how did that work out for them? Oh that's right, they won. n/t

[Javaman]

24. In navy circles I understand they refer to that tragedy as the USS Forestfire. nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

67. Who here has EVER posted that kind of idiotic statement?

Since I don't listen to Rush, I don't know what his callers might say.

YOU are the only poster I've seen put this on the board:

It's as bad as the several people who've posted or commented on radio that they don't like McCain because he doesn't bend his arms-

And then you'll accuse other posters of posting that statement, I know the drill.

[backscatter712]

25. IIRC, it was a malfunction. McCain didn't pull the trigger.

Not that I'm a McCain fan, but if we're going to criticize him, let's not pull a Rove and invent smears.

I think what happened (somebody correct me) is that a "Huffer" truck (a truck with a jet turbine onboard that's used to start aircrafts' jet engines) parked too close to an aircraft, and its hot exhaust blew on a Zuni rocket and caused it to cook off.

[A HERETIC I AM]

27. According to Wikipedia, it was an electrical power surge...

on the F-4 as it was being switched from external power to internal power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

[backscatter712]

31. Maybe I'm confusing it with another accident.

IIRC, the Enterprise also had a bad fire during the Vietnam war - maybe the huffer truck thing's from that incident.

[A HERETIC I AM]

33. It is. Here's some info on that incident;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CVN-65)

# 14 January 1969: At approximately 8:19 am, a MK-32 Zuni rocket warhead attached to an F-4 Phantom was overheated by exhaust from an aircraft starting unit and detonated, setting off fires and additional explosions across the carrier. The fire was brought under control promptly when compared with previous carrier flight deck fires, but 27 lives were lost, and an additional 314 people were injured. The fire had destroyed 15 aircraft, and the resulting damage forced Enterprise to put in for repairs, primarily to repair the flight deck's armored plating.<6>

This happened off Hawaii.

The Enterprise has that unmistakable, box-like island structure.

[RamboLiberal]

40. Carrier USS Oriskany also had a fire during Vietnam War duty

The carrier was on station the morning of 27 October 1966 when a fire erupted on the starboard side of the ship's forward hangar bay and raced through five decks, killing 44 men. Many who lost their lives were veteran combat pilots who had flown raids over Vietnam a few hours earlier. Oriskany had been put in danger when a magnesium parachute flare exploded in the forward flare locker of Hangar Bay 1, beneath the carrier's flight deck. Subsequent investigation showed the flare functioned as designed and cause of the fire was user error. A seaman threw the ignited flare back into the weapons locker where the flares were kept for storage instead of throwing it over the side into the water; this allowed the entire storage locker to ignite and cause horrific damage. Some of her crewmen jettisoned heavy bombs which lay within reach of the flames, while others wheeled planes out of danger, rescued pilots, and helped quell the blaze throughout the next three hours. Medical assistance was rushed to the carrier from sister aircraft carriers Constellation (CV-64) and Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42). Later investigation by Captain Iarrobino of the Oriskany and analysis by the Naval Ammunition Depot in Crane, Indiana, showed that out of the flares one in every thousand could go off accidentally if jarred. Five crew members were court-martialed as a result of the incident but were later acquitted. After this incident and others, the flare design used by the Navy was changed to a safer design that would be immune to accidental ignition, and crews were increased to stabilize numbers so all activities could be properly supervised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Oriskany_(CV-34)

BTW this was the carrier McCain was flying from when he was shot down and captured.

[McCamy Taylor]

28. Please avoid any type of "Swiftboat" attacks on McCain. Rove will start enough of these himself

pretending that they come from Democrats. The intention will be to make McCain look sympathetic and Obama look sleazy and dirty--just another Mayor Daley type Chicago politician.

Instead, try this . "McCain served his country well, but he has shown himself to be out of touch now by..." and then go after him on any one of his gazillion of mistakes he has made as a politicians.

Americans are not going to elect an aging war hero. They want someone who can fix their economy. When McCain talks about the economy, he hyperventilates.

[McCamy Taylor]

29. Net effect of attacks like these hurts Dems and Obama more than McCain so BEWARE

and would other DU posters please help me in pointing this out when you find these posts, because I expect them to start popping up on DU a lot.

[RamboLiberal]

39. This is false crap - as others pointed out the missile hit McCain's

plane. No pilot fired it, it was some kind of electrical short that triggered the missile. The fire and the explosion that killed the firefighting team and many sailors and pilots in their sleeping quarters was caused by the ship taking on old WWII bombs because the US Navy was running short of bombs. I don't believe McCain or the skipper had any say about taking on this ordanance. McCain certainly wasn't the CAG at the time I believe. The video shows McCain plane being hit and him scrambling out of the cockpit and almost in to the fire.

Let's not Swiftboat McCain with this BS!

Suggest you check out the excellent book "Sailors to the End". I read quite a bit of it at the bookstore one night.

From Amazon.com

In midsummer 1967, the United States aircraft carrier Forrestal, stationed off Vietnam, lost 134 men to fires and ensuing explosions after an errant missile from one of its own planes ruptured a fuel tank on a nearby jet. Gregory A. Freeman's Sailors to the End is a starkly illuminating account of the disaster which, like so many maritime tragedies, was perfectly preventable. Although a faulty detonation switch (similar to a surge suppressor) caused the rocket to fire, the crippling, deadly conflagrations were caused by exploding ordnance--"ancient ... thin-skinned" bombs of World War II vintage. The Navy never admitted its guilt in the matter, a point Freeman makes very clear. He has a knack for balancing instructive overviews with telling details (for example, each link in the ship's anchor chain weighed 360 pounds). Freeman does not shy from the grotesque detail, and many scenes, especially in the sick bay, are harrowing to read. The sad tale of the men of the Forrestal is a model of narrative clarity and honest reporting. --H. O'Billovich

From Library Journal
The tragic events that occurred on the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal in July 1967, while the ship's crew was preparing for an air strike against North Vietnam, ranks high with other naval disasters at sea. Told through personal narratives of 12 eyewitness sailors, the book shows how through a series of accidents misfire from a Phantom aircraft's Zuni rocket struck another aircraft on the flight deck, piloted by (later Senator) John McCain. The misfired rocket set off a series of explosions, some from 1000-pound vintage World War II bombs already loaded on jets on the flight deck. The ensuing series of cataclysmic events caused a bloody carnage and loss of 134 men. Freeman (Lay This Body Down) doesn't spare the gruesome details. McCain, a combat pilot and POW during the Vietnam War, was caught in the middle of exploding aircraft and walls of jet fuel fireballs. Sailors were trapped below decks or thrown overboard by each succeeding explosion as deadly shrapnel hissed across the deck. Despite the damage and loss of life, the aircraft carrier did not sink. This thorough, absorbing account is recommended for large public libraries and Vietnam War collections. Gerald Costa, Brooklyn P.L., NY

[Kolesar]

60. It is bullshit. I was hoping more DUers would pick up on that in the link in the O/P

Even the yahoo posting I put up was lame with its freepish misspellings. It was something I found when I was on a yahoo site.

I thought my On the Media excerpt upthread would have been a giveaway too.

[Mountainman]

41. If there is one thing I learned here at DU is that history is written by those who did not live it.

What I mean is the majority opinion rules or what opinion has the most supporters who pressure others to stop posting or replying.

[RamboLiberal]

42. Instead of this BS go after him on the Keating Five

Keating Five
McCain's upwards political trajectory was jolted when he became enmeshed in the Keating Five scandal of the 1980s. In the context of the Savings and Loan crisis of that decade, Charles Keating Jr.'s Lincoln Savings and Loan Association, a subsidiary of his American Continental Corporation, was insolvent due to some bad loans. In order to regain solvency, Lincoln sold investment in a real estate venture as a FDIC insured savings account. This caught the eye of federal regulators who were looking to shut it down. It is alleged that Keating contacted five senators to whom he made contributions. McCain was one of those senators and he met at least twice in 1987 with Ed Gray, chairman of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board, seeking to prevent the government's seizure of Lincoln. Between 1982 and 1987, McCain received approximately $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates. In addition, McCain's wife and her father had invested $359,100 in a Keating shopping center in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators. McCain, his family and baby-sitter made at least nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard the American Continental jet. After learning Keating was in trouble over Lincoln, McCain paid for the air trips totaling $13,433.

Eventually the real estate venture failed, leaving many broke. Federal regulators ultimately filed a $1.1 billion civil racketeering and fraud suit against Keating, accusing him of siphoning Lincoln's deposits to his family and into political campaigns. The five senators came under investigation for attempting to influence the regulators. In the end, none of the senators were convicted of any crime, although McCain was rebuked by the Senate Ethics Committee for exercising "poor judgment" for intervening with the federal regulators on behalf of Keating. On his Keating Five experience, McCain said: "The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do."

McCain survived the political scandal by, in part, becoming friendly with the political press; with his blunt manner, he became a frequent guest on television news shows, especially once the 1991 Gulf War began and his military and POW experience became in demand. McCain began campaigning against lobbyist money in politics from then on. His 1992 re-election campaign found his opposition split between Democratic community and civil rights activist Claire Sargent and impeached and removed former Governor Evan Mecham running as an independent. Although Mecham garnered some hard-core conservative support, Sargent's campaign never gathered momentum and the Keating Five affair did not dominate discussion. McCain again won handily, getting 56 percent of the vote to Sargent's 32 percent and Mecham's 11 percent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Vietnam_operations

[TahitiNut]

44. Did he burn his mouth on the tailpipe?

:dunce: :silly:

[RamboLiberal]

45. Stupid comment n/t

[TahitiNut]

48. I guess you live a life with very little humor ...

... and are thus not familiar with that old joke. Too bad. :shrug:

[RamboLiberal]

50. No - I like smart humor - I'm familar with the joke

but what happened on the Forrestal that day was no joke. A lot of men died in that fire and McCain did nothing wrong and was lucky to survive. Do we joke about the soldiers dying in Iraq?

[madmom]

49. IMO McLame losses all earned respect when he said torture(waterboarding) was ok...

he of all people should be screaming to the roof tops about torture and the bad it incurs! nope as far as I'm concerned McLame is no longer worthy of respect!

[RamboLiberal]

51. Exactly - I don't question the young McCain's courage

and he probably wasn't a perfect character at the time. He is a hot-head still and given to arrogance. But the McCain of 2000 after the savaging Rove and Bush did to him sold his soul to the devil for a chance at the WH!

[Thothmes]

56. arrogant and hot headed tends to describe

most young Navy pilots that I have ever met.

[FalconsRule]

66. We want them to believe

they are the baddest asses in the sky. All young fighter pilots believe that. Those that don't fly tankers...

[Thothmes]

70. or B--52s

[B Calm]

74. He was a bad pilot!! How many planes did he crash?

[Thepricebreaker]

77. It will NEVER stick.. he was a POW for years... Go down this road at your own peril

Your going to attack McCain about this war service? A POW for years? He cant lift his arms above his shoulders because of his torture and your going to go down that road? You would be put out like a cigarette but.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

79. LOL, another rabid McCain defender. Welcome! We'll be enjoying your repartee during the GE, I'm sure

:hi: