Can we please stop wishing for the demise of businesses?

[Captain Angry]

Hi there,

Some people here seem to revel in every notice that a company has entered bankruptcy protection or is closing up shop. Especially when it's a store that caters to some group that we're not a member.

Most of the folks here don't do that. But way too many still do.

While these companies fold, be they banks, specialty stores or multi-national conglomerates, they are still employers. Every time one of these companies close their doors, somebody is going to become unemployed. And regardless of what the federal government says, jobs aren't as easy to come by as they could be.

Today it might be a company we hate. Tomorrow, it might be somebody that employs 50,000 people. Or more.

Business is not the problem with what our government has become. For every Enron that had WAY too much say in how policy was created, there are 1000 that just do their thing and would never spend a dime to influence a politician.

We need companies that design things, produce things, sell things, move things, finance things, etc.

As somebody who watched my job head off to India without me, I know first hand what it's like to be rendered unemployed by a bad business decision. But I wouldn't even be happy if my old employer fell apart. Because way too many good people would be out on the street.

Thanks for reading.

** Disclaimer: I've been thinking about this for a while, so if you've recently posted one of these kinds of articles, this isn't a shot at you. You might have just reminded me. :-)

[rwenos]

1. Agreed - Business is Not inherently Evil

Even Marx and Engels had nothing bad to say about "petty bourgeois capitalism" -- i.e., the English independent shopkeepers.

It's big corporate business that exploits. And for every one of them that files for bankruptcy, there's an unsatisfied wage claim, and a looted 401k plan, and an unfunded federal tax withholding liability. When big companies go down, the only real losers are the employees.

[Skittles]

2. I hear you, Captain

absolutely

[WillowTree]

3. THANK YOU!!

I just made the same point on another thread. The first thing I always think of is the people whose jobs are in jeopardy or gone altogether and it tears my heart out. Been there, done that. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[MADem]

4. There are a lot of stupid people in the world.

They believe that all businesses are "corporations" and they also believe that all "corporations" are evil.

They are dullards who can't think.

They don't realize that part of the reason our standard of living is so high is because of businesses and corporations.

We need to dump the bad ones, keep the good ones.

Not such a hard thing to figure out...if you apply yourself.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[idovoodoo]

13. Actually, no posts at all would be necessary to make that observation.

Or did you have some specific number in mind...?
:D

[El Pinko]

18. Why not start an OP about the "fact" that half of DUers are idiots...

...and see what kind of response you get...

[idovoodoo]

20. Well, I've been reading for a while and it's pretty obvious that about half of the people here

think the other half are idiots. Haven't you noticed that?

[El Pinko]

27. No.

I don't consider people who are more or less of the same outlook on things to be idiots just because they disagree with me on a few things.

Maybe the problem is that you are at odds with most of DU on most issues, and that's why none of your posts seem to be about any issues, but rather just a bunch of slams against the posters here.

Could you explain which "half" it is here that is so moronic, and which "half" is on the ball?

[MADem]

9. I dunno if half of DU buys that "Business is Evil" BS.

The few that do are just loudmouths.

Plenty WORK for those businesses, and even those corporations. And not all of them are bad.

[idovoodoo]

12. That was precisely my point! Thanks for getting it.

Every American household is a 'business' (if it works at all)...iconoclasm is a wonderful thing until it craps on whatever keeps the iconoclast's world running.

[El Pinko]

5. I don't think most people wish for the demise of businesses.

But unfortunately, ever since Reagan, businesses have ripped up the compact they once had with employees. No more pensions, just 401ks. No more health insurance, just partially-funded HMOs (if that), no more job security, and hardly ever a raise, always WAY behind inflation, and at the same time, we all se corporate profits soar year after year, and CEO salaries going from 50X the salary of a normal worker to 1000X the salary of a normal worker.

As long as business keeps treating the people who keep it functioning like worthless peons, a certain amount of schedenfreude when they fail is inevitable.

[Captain Angry]

10. Some thoughts...

401(k) vs. pensions...

It's all about risk management.

If a company maintains a pension program (let's call it a defined benefit program), they are responsible to ensure that the pension has the investment and return that was contracted for. This reduces the flexibility of the company's investment decisions. Furthermore, it created a situation where an employee would lose their pension if they chose to leave on their own. The defined benefit program was not portable.

They moved to the 401(k) system, a defined contribution program. The companies still dedicate money to their employees, but the risk moves to the employee to maintain and invest their own funds. Part of the process was to ensure that information, documentation and training would be made available so that the employees could make intelligent decisions about what went into their investment. This program also meant that an employee could leave and transfer their investment to their next employer or into a private IRA.

Health insurance...

Health insurance is a fraud, and isn't the employer's fault. If the government offered a basic safety net with maintenance programs, the US worker would be a whole lot more competitive. Ford is paying something like $1800 per car for old pensions and health benefits. Toyota (in Japan) isn't. If the USA had a program that just made sure that everybody had a base level of health (flu shots, pre-natal, etc.) we'd be in much better shape.

Job-security.

Nobody should be guaranteed a job, if they don't have a reason to work hard, some people won't do it. Everybody has the reasonable expectation that if they do their job, that they'll be treated fairly. That's gone out the window with some very high profile companies like Circuit City. Firing senior employees to hire cheaper ones in the same city shows that their business model isn't working. If your margins are that tight, find a new industry or cut something else.

Salaries

There is no defending what the largest companies did with their executive pay. But keep in mind, the board of directors for the publicly traded companies decided that was going to be the compensation program. The shareholders of those companies should have been throwing the directors out as they were not making decisions in the best interest of the shareholder, but in the best interest of enriching somebody that might be a board member for a company where they worked. That system needs to be fixed in a big way. But that's only the very largest companies that get into that situation.


The companies who treat their employees like crap will only stop when they stop receiving applications and stop selling their goods. But again, I think that's the minority of companies. Most of them are not doing these things.

[El Pinko]

15. You've nicely laid out the excuses for business' abandonment of workers...

...but the fact is all of those things add up to employees working a lot harder and longer, for a lot less over the last 25 years.

Business claims that this is all necessary because of "competitive pressures" but those competitive pressures are largely exacerbated by government tax and trade policy.

And you pooh-pooh the health insurance issue as "fraud". I won't argue that it's not a kleptocracy, but by whom? Oh yeah - BUSINESS!



When business starts behaving like citizens who have an obligation to this SOCIETY, just as much as us HUMANS, not just bands of thieves who will dump 1000 employees at the drop of a hat while raising CEO compensation, I think average citizens will be more symathetic with their plight when things go south.


I realize that the failure of a business helps NOBODY. But then again, feeling a bit of schadenfreude when it happens doesn't make its impact any worse or better. The idea that our visceral feelings about these things have any real impact is absurd.

[Captain Angry]

19. The number of hours in lower paying jobs sure has gone up.

Competitive pressures are absolutely interfered with by our government as well as the other ones around the world, add to that supernational trade organizations and it gets even messier. It would be interesting to see how well "free-trade" would work if it truly were free. No barriers whatsoever, no tariffs, nothing. Back to the old theory of competitive and absolute advantage. The countries with the expertise produce their products, and trade with the ones who don't.

The health insurance system is run by businesses, that is true. But only the very largest ones. And they're not operating in a manner that is even remotely in the good interests of a healthy public. They're the companies that need to be scrutinized first and foremost by the next administration.

To be fair, a business has no incentive to act as a citizen. Bribery notwithstanding, businesses aren't supposed to be able to vote. If company A pollutes, and company B does not, company A's stuff is cheaper. Guess whose stuff gets bought. Until there is a counter-incentive to Company A for the pollution, they would be crazy to do anything that reduces their profit. I'm not saying that's a good system, it's just where we are right now.

We definitely need an overhaul and a real direction. I sure hope we get one come November.

[Kitty Herder]

28. El Pinko, your're awesome!

I'm pretty new here, but I gotta say, I always love your posts and usually agree with them. :loveya:

[ruiner4u]

7. glad to K&R...

"yuppie company" is going out of business!!! YAY!!!!

S/he wouldn't be so gleeful if its dinner was dependant on that companies paycheck.

[Captain Angry]

11. That thread was just one of the many that pop up on this site.

There are a lot of people that feel very good about watching a company die when they cater to an upscale customer base.

Many of those same people would be terribly sad if Apple or Ikea or Volkswagen or...


Look for the posts about banks that have to close their doors. Some people want to go point and laugh as it happens. Very sad.

[ruiner4u]

14. its pretty sad..

so many on here like to pride themselves on progressive ideals, but when they can poke fun at something and rouse the rabble its akin to crack..

[El Pinko]

16. That wasn't the point of that OP

The point was that Sharper Image was peddling harmful garbage and lost in court.

[WillowTree]

23. Of course it wasn't.

You just hadn't yet accomoplished your goal for the day to use "schadenfreude" in a sentence. And now you have. Good for you.

[Angela Shelley]

26. Hey WillowTree, you just used "my word",

Schadenfreude!

Have a nice day :-)

[WillowTree]

29. Back atcha, Angela!

And a super weekend, as well!!

[villager]

17. however, we need to overturn the 19th century Supreme court decision that gave corporations

the same rights as individual citizens, and thereby sent this country on a path to ruination.

Corporations do not have a right to "free speech" in elections by larding up the campaign coffers of bought and paid for candidates.

There was a recent Jefferson warned against too much corporate power.


http://www.ratical.org/corporations/demoBrief.html

[hunter]

21. I'm not gonna cry if the coal industry dies.

Hell, if I was driving down the street and the coal industry stepped in front of my car I'd step on the accelerator and tell the cops oops, my foot missed the brakes.

We need to build a society where job retraining is easy and unemployment benefits are generous because there are entire industries that need to be killed.

[Captain Angry]

22. There's an interesting case.

It bugs the hell out of me that in the year 2008 we still have humans underground harvesting bits of dinosaur so we can watch TV.

I absolutely and completely agree with you on retraining. It is in the national interest of the USA to have well trained employed people.

Coal isn't going away this year. But there's no reason we shouldn't be funding the daylights out of every alternative possible. Universities should be doing research. Private companies that figure out how to generate clean power should be encouraged.

Coal has specific uses. Much like oil, we need to identify where substitutes can be used, and where they can't. If we were to knock down coal production by 99% so that we just produced enough for the industrial needs, it would be a great start.

[Kitty Herder]

30. I know many people who would cry. The coal industry is horrible. But

like every other industry, there are those who depend on it for their livelihoods. I live in an area where the only thing going is coal-mining and two huge coal-fired power plants. (I try not to think about the health of effects of those plant, so don't remind me.) Most of my neighbors and a good share of my relative would be out of jobs without the coal industry. Hell, I'm a coal-miner's daughter.

If they could immediately find jobs that paid as much as they make now, I would celebrate the end of the coal industry. And so would they. It's not like they enjoy working in an extremely dangerous, dark hole in the ground or that they delight in working in an industry that is so terrible for the environment. But it pays well and like I said, around here, it's the only thing going. And when coal-miners lose jobs, they can't find new ones easily. Their skills don't transfer to other jobs well. They usually end up making minimum wage at 7-11.

So I hate coal-mining. But I'd also hate to see it go.

[hunter]

36. That's what's wrong in the United States.

Many workers are essentially redemptioners, held in servitude by a variety of forces.

That's why we don't have single payer universal health care, living wages, adequate unemployment benefits, and paid jobs training. The people with the political power want to keep it that way.

If coal miners could transition to building and installing wind power turbines or high speed electric railroads, for example, without any financial hardship, they would jump at the opportunities, and we could quickly shut down the coal industry without any great hardship for the workers.

There are other industries that need to be shut down too. We are destroying our own environment. If we can't stop ourselves nature will. Unfortunately nature's methods usually involve a lot of death and suffering.

[McCamy Taylor]

24. Can we celebrate when a corporate crook goes to jail?

:applause:

[Captain Angry]

25. Absolutely.

Corporate criminals affect so many more people than a "blue-collar" criminal.

These guys make decisions that will underfund pensions, give bonuses to cronies, and all at the expense of the employees and the shareholders.

They're the ones that need to spend time away from home. I don't think they should be locked up with violent criminals. But they sure shouldn't be allowed to be at any facility where golf or tennis exists.

[earth mom]

31. The Robber Barons have taken this country over for a second time.

Any Corporation or business entity who has lobbyists in Washington DC are ABSOLUTELY the rotten stinking corrupt root of the problem.

When some of those bastard Corporations crash and burn, you can't blame people for cheering their demise.

Frankly, I'm surprised that people aren't out on the street at this point.

The only reason people aren't is because the majority people are so imprisoned by debt obligations they are too cowed and afraid to do a damn thing about it.

[mmonk]

32. Not wishing for their demise, I do wish they would be

relegated to being just business and not ruling a country and its policies and political process while having laws created in favor of it over live breathing citizens. For what it's worth, I've been in private business most of my adult life.

[Berry Cool]

33. Thank you.

If I still had spare Valentine hearts to give out and it were still the season, I'd give you one.

[A HERETIC I AM]

34. So, you're looking to negate some DU'rs reason for posting at all, eh?

Sheesh. What will they carry on about then?

I mean, after all, there is an entire daily thread that is dedicated to the premise and promotes the meme that all business is evil. What would they all do during the day if not revel in every bit of bad news available? When there is actual good news, it is either ignored or written off as unreliable or somehow part of a conspiracy. Good news also has the effect of slowing the frequency of posts down to a crawl. When the bad news is prevalent, it is scrutinized, applauded, the post rate shoots through the roof and the sentiment is overwhelmingly "See? I told you it is all a scam".

If a company does not give every dime of profit to its employees, it is evil.
If a company makes a product or provides a service- ANY product or service that certain DU'rs don't like (or don't understand), it is evil.
If, in order to financially survive an economic slowdown, a company lays off or fires employees because not doing so is economic suicide, it is evil.
If a company is simply too large for the taste of many DU'rs, it is evil.
If a company is private, does things that benefit its private shareholders or participants, seeks to maximize profit for them and won't make every single bit of its operational information public, it is evil.
If an individual happens to purchase shares in a company and then benefits when that company is profitable, then THAT PERSON is evil.



:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: (Did I really need that many of those?)

I find it amusing that the people who complain about corporations on this message board are able to do so directly because of the many major corporations that facilitated getting that message out. Do you have a hatred for American capitalism? Fine. Put your money where your hatred is and stop using the infrastructure built by AT&T, The Bell companies, Northern Telecom and every other major company that had anything to do with building the communication system around the world.

Too many gleefully hope for an utter economic collapse just so they can feel better about their perception that all business are run by horrible people who clearly must wake up each morning and think "how can I screw over the American public today?"

Good thread, Captain. Thanks.

[TexasObserver]

35. You're right. Jobs are lost, and little mom and pop vendors get busted out as a result.

Every company that fails take down with it many decent workers, and many decent small companies that have built their business around serving the bigger business.

Get rid of the CEOs and top management? Yes. Make those guys walk the plank and/or repay money wrongly taken or misused? Yes. Make the appropriate insurers pay off on director and officer misconduct? Yes. Strip the owners of their equity to rebuild the company under new ownership, through a bankruptcy chapter proceeding? Absolutely.

It's right to strip away the wrongdoers and the surplusage, but failed companies hurt the workers, not the wealthy, who remain largely insulated.