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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:35 PM
Original message
What about this Jonah Goldberg
I have been seeing him everywhere on TV lately talking about his book Liberal Fascism. I am surprised I haven't seen any posts about him. He has totally redefined Fascism as a left wing Socialist system contrary to the dictionary definition as a far right system. Is the nut the son of Bernard Goldberg? :puke:
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. he is the son of Lucianne Goldberg and you know who she is I
assume.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wasn't she was the one that inspired Linda Tripp
to have Monica save the blue dress?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. yup, that's her!
and shortly after her 15 minutes of fame were up, Jonah got a job at National Review.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I just read her bio on Wikipedia
she is a regular Benedict Arnold, what a bitch.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I didn't but just checked her out on Wiki. I hate her. nt
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. i think she runs a RW discussion board also.
Lucianne.com or something like that.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. oh yes and her poster are "Ldotters" they make little green football posters look
almost sane.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yep - it was mentioned in the Wiki article. It's compared to Free Republic, so
I won't be checking it out.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. In other words he is a real SOB
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. he's an over privileged fop that never has done an honest days work in his life, he also
needs to get off his Dragonlady mother's teat.
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. I agree
He pulled himself up by his mothers garter belt
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. It isn't even original.
The rightwing revisionist theory of fascism as a left wing ideology has been floating around for at least the last 20 years. It is mostly spouted by folks who are more or less actual fascists, or at least hardline authoritarian right wing radicals, for example Jonah Goldberg.

There is plenty of good scholarly research into the problem of totalitarianism, and certainly totalitarian regimes on the left and the right had much in common, however Jonah is just a dishonest propagandist for our own native fascists.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. He even claims FDR was fascist.
If you need some debunking, try this.....


Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.


Summary

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.


Argument

To most people, Hitler's beliefs belong to the extreme far right. For example, most conservatives believe in patriotism and a strong military; carry these beliefs far enough, and you arrive at Hitler's warring nationalism. This association has long been something of an embarrassment to the far right. To deflect such criticism, conservatives have recently launched a counter-attack, claiming that Hitler was a socialist, and therefore belongs to the political left, not the right.

The primary basis for this claim is that Hitler was a National Socialist. The word "National" evokes the state, and the word "Socialist" openly identifies itself as such.

However, there is no academic controversy over the status of this term: it was a misnomer. Misnomers are quite common in the history of political labels. Examples include the German Democratic Republic (which was neither) and Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democrat" party (which was also neither). The true question is not whether Hitler called his party "socialist," but whether or not it actually was.

In fact, socialism has never been tried at the national level anywhere in the world. This may surprise some people -- after all, wasn't the Soviet Union socialist? The answer is no. Many nations and political parties have called themselves "socialist," but none have actually tried socialism. To understand why, we should revisit a few basic political terms.

Perhaps the primary concern of any political ideology is who gets to own and control the means the production. This includes factories, farmlands, machinery, etc. Generally there have been three approaches to this question. The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood. The second is capitalism, which has disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded. The third (and untried) approach is socialism, where everyone owns and controls the means of production, by means of the vote. As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.

Socialism has been proposed in many forms. The most common is social democracy, where workers vote for their supervisors, as well as their industry representatives to regional or national congresses. Another proposed form is anarcho-socialism, where workers own companies that would operate on a free market, without any central government at all. As you can see, a central planning committee is hardly a necessary feature of socialism. The primary feature is worker ownership of production.

The Soviet Union failed to qualify as socialist because it was a dictatorship over workers -- that is, a type of aristocracy, with a ruling elite in Moscow calling all the shots. Workers cannot own or control anything under a totalitarian government. In variants of socialism that call for a central government, that government is always a strong or even direct democracy… never a dictatorship. It doesn't matter if the dictator claims to be carrying out the will of the people, or calls himself a "socialist" or a "democrat." If the people themselves are not in control, then the system is, by definition, non-democratic and non-socialist.

And what of Nazi Germany? The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." (1)

The employer, however, was subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Like all war economies, it boomed, making Germany the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, in 1936. (The first nation was Sweden, in 1934. Following Keynesian-like policies, the Swedish government spent its way out of the Depression, proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war.)

Prior to the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, worker protests had spread all across Germany in response to the Great Depression. During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. Historian William Shirer describes the Nazi's dual strategy:

"The party had to play both sides of the tracks. It had to allow Strasser, Goebbels and the crank Feder to beguile the masses with the cry that the National Socialists were truly 'socialists' and against the money barons. On the other hand, money to keep the party going had to be wheedled out of those who had an ample supply of it." (2)

Once in power, Hitler showed his true colors by promptly breaking all his promises to workers. The Nazis abolished trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike. An organization called the "Labor Front" replaced the old trade unions, but it was an instrument of the Nazi party and did not represent workers. According to the law that created it, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able… to perform the maximum of work." Workers would indeed greatly boost their productivity under Nazi rule. But they also became exploited. Between 1932 and 1936, workers wages fell, from 20.4 to 19.5 cents an hour for skilled labor, and from 16.1 to 13 cents an hour for unskilled labor. (3) Yet workers did not protest. This was partly because the Nazis had restored order to the economy, but an even bigger reason was that the Nazis would have cracked down on any protest.

There was no part of Nazism, therefore, that even remotely resembled socialism. But what about the political nature of Nazism in general? Did it belong to the left, or to the right? Let's take a closer look:

The politics of Nazism

The political right is popularly associated with the following principles. Of course, it goes without saying that these are generalizations, and not every person on the far right believes in every principle, or disbelieves its opposite. Most people's political beliefs are complex, and cannot be neatly pigeonholed. This is as true of Hitler as anyone. But since the far right is trying peg Hitler as a leftist, it's worth reviewing the tenets popularly associated with the right. These include:

* Individualism over collectivism.
* Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
* Eugenics over freedom of reproduction.
* Merit over equality.
* Competition over cooperation.
* Power politics and militarism over pacifism.
* One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
* Capitalism over Marxism.
* Realism over idealism.
* Nationalism over internationalism.
* Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
* Meat-eating over vegetarianism.
* Gun ownership over gun control
* Common sense over theory or science.
* Pragmatism over principle.
* Religion over secularism.
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Friendly relations with the Church
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 11:08 AM by kskiska



SMOKING GUN!
Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935

On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."



Hitler praying

The caption reads: "Der ergreifende Abschlub der Kundgebung in Wien: Wir treten zum Beten..."

(The touching and emotional end of the rally in Vienna: Let us pray...)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
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ChazII Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. a definition
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. :D
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PoiBoy Donating Member (842 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-22-08 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thom Hartmann shredded his stupid ass...
..when his book first came out... Goldberg was sooooo p-o'd... and when Thom asked him if he could stay over the break because he had more questions, Goldberg said he had another interview and just about hung up on Thom...

way to go Thom..!!!

:applause:
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. Yep. Here it is, in case anyone is curious.
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Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. Goldberg is a right wing propagandist. Noting more.
He is a shallow human being. Anyone supporting the criminal in the White House should be shunned. :dem:
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. I think I read somewhere that he's a
"doughy pantload"...I wish I knew who originated that, because it rocks!
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OilemFirchen Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Yeppers
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Soft, padded loser, catapulted to noteriety on the wide back of his dreadful mother. NT
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
19. Ha! Jon Stewart tore him apart. See Here:
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. What an ass. The
Republicans have made "Liberal" a bad word and now that gutless Democrats are calling themselves "Progressives" he like Bill O'Liely and his Secular Progressive bullshit are redefining the word progressive. You have to give these evil bastards credit, we need to destroy "Conservative" so no Republican would ever want that label. :grr:
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. Ah, Jonah Goldberg Champion of Chickenhawk Warmongers
Check out the site http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/">OperationYellowElephant for more. especially his give war a chance speech to http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/2007/12/military-recruiting-opportunity-jonah.html">UMass Amherst Young Republicans
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. Like Mother, Like Son

I used to hang out and snipe on Lucienne's site, back before she eliminated all liberal postings. Early in the Bush regime, I recall Lucienne commenting on how sad it was that great words had been lost due to political correctness---words like "pickaninny," for instance. And no, I'm not making this up. This was after I'd been thrown off the site, but I emailed the administrators, asking if Lucienne was planning on referring to the children and/or young relatives of Colin Powell and Condi Rice as "pickaninnies." I also told them that I now regarded being tossed off Lucienne.com as one of the great honors of my life.

Jonah Goldberg is a more-or-less grown man, and he can own up himself to being an insufferable, ignorant asshole. But his mother is a malignant witch, so she should get a little credit, as well.....
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
24. goldberg is quite the slimeball....fuck him and his opinion
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
25. We're trying to ignore the yellow elephant in the room
he is a big load of nothing
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. Some takedowns of the book
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
29. he's a fat little lying turd
and that's an insult both to shit and to the gravitationally gifted.
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