Do our schools even teach civics classes anymore?

[Syrinx]

I've made it a point recently to engage young people that I meet in brief conversations about government and politics.

The ignorance that I have stumbled upon has absolutely amazed me.

Most of these young people, people in high school, don't know what a "veto" is. They don't know what is meant by "separation of powers." Many of them can't even name the three branches of government!

Do our schools even teach basic civics anymore?

It seems to me that these young people can only be so ignorant because our society is being intentionally "dumbed down."

I had always assumed that Leno's "Jay Walking" segment had to be edited in the extreme. I had assumed that there was no way that your average college sophomore doesn't know who the first president of the United States was. I'm not so sure anymore.

EDIT: I've also met a couple of young people that knew a lot more about government and politics than I did!

I'm just saying that I don't think the schools teach that stuff very much anymore, and I wonder if they teach it at all.

[elleng]

1. Awful recognition,

and excellent question.

Sent our daughters to private/parochial schools, where such was indeed taught. (And comparative religions were in curriculum of Catholic schools!) Consequently I can't speak about public education, but I have doubts.

[seabeyond]

19. had kids in both private and public. pulled out of private cause public

was doing so much more academically. just saying

[elleng]

27. seabe,

public in DC was untenable. Would have been HAPPY to do public (where I went, forever!) if had it as a reasonable option. We should ALL be flexible, imo.

[Mabus]

2. There is so much that they aren't being taught anymore

but I don't blame the teachers. It is symptomatic of the NCLB policy which does dumb down our educational system. Kids aren't being taught the basics nor are they being encouraged to develop their critical thinking skills.

When I was a kid (many years ago) I remember my third grade teacher taking time out to help one student with his math. We were doing fractions and decimals but this guy just didn't get it. He was mildly disruptive and complained that he didn't know why this stuff was important or how he'd use it outside of school. She stopped the class and asked how many were interested in sports. She then explained how to figure batting averages using both fractions and decimals as examples. All of a sudden this guy's eyes lit up and he understood. She went on with other examples of how fractions and decimals were used in our everyday life and why they were important. She even assigned us homework she called "Fractions are our friends" and had us look for fractions and decimals in our everyday life. We wrote papers. More importantly, she changed this guy's life. He actually became pretty good at math because it made sense to him.

It's been over thirty years since that happened but even as a kid I knew that woman was a great teacher. She took the time to engage each one of us in the wonders of math and their practical implications in our day-to-day lives. I don't think she would be able to do that under the NCLB guidelines because of time constraints.

fwiw, after I started attending college (in another state) I used to go back and visit with that teacher. She was an inspiration to me because she cared enough to make sure that there were no children left behind.

[HockeyMom]

3. Yes

My daughter had to take US History and Government and Participation in Government to get a Regents Diploma in NYS.

The Participation in Government is pro active. They had to go out and actually DO something. They could attend school board meeting, a jury trial, volunteer to register voters, etc. One of the things my daughter did was to write to Hillary, Schumer, and our local rep, Tim Bishop, about a concern of hers. Although Hillary and Schumer sent her a form letter back, Tim Bishop actually answered her letter point by point and commended her for being so concerned at such a "young age". It was a very nice letter and she was very surprised at receiving it.

[elleng]

4. Good to hear

that NYS Regents Diploma still means something! Its been many years since mine, and I've been wondering about it.

[laylah]

5. I work at a local

school and have asked the same question. Here, anyway, that is not done until high school, and then very little. Sad. Another thing that isn't taught thoroughly is American History, which totally blew me away when I heard it!

[SoCalDem]

6. Those classes used to be required for graduation

Civics in 11th grade and US Government in 12th

My guess is that these days, they are probably electives, and kids may not even take them because they look like "hard" classes..

[HockeyMom]

41. Both those courses are

required for graudation in NYS. Yes, even the Participation in Government. They are not electives.

[DavidDvorkin]

7. My generation is also ignorant, and we had those classes

A lot of students pay little or no attention to most of what they're taught. Maybe that should be most students.

I went to high school in the lat 1950s. We were required to take US history and civics courses, but I'm often astonished at how little people of my age know about both. My son went to high school in the 1980s and also had to take such courses; he also encounters such ignorance in his peers.

Don't blame the schools.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. I am an 80s grad. I took Civics but I can barely remember much it, even with the

propping up by DU and all its wealth of info.

[DavidDvorkin]

17. Yup. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother having schools at all!

:)

[knitter4democracy]

8. It's taught. That doesn't mean the kids assimilate the info.

When I taught high school English (before we had the kids), I remember a day in my AP English class when we were covering different critical approaches to Jane Eyre. The students were supposed to read the Marxist critic's essay the night before, but since I knew they hardly ever read their assignments (for an AP class!), I gave a have-you-read quiz. One of the questions was to be an easy one, since almost all of the class was in AP Government at the same time: "Define the term bourgeoisie." They all gave me blank looks. I thought that maybe they just didn't know how the term was pronounced, so I wrote it out on the board. Still blank looks. Only one student got it right, and she wasn't in AP Government.

I teased the AP Gov't teacher at lunch that day about it, and she flew into a rage. Communism was the second unit she'd taught that year, and they constantly referred back to it in class. She'd spent two weeks on it, they'd done well on the test, and she thought they knew it. It wasn't there at all.

Granted, that was a bad batch of kids that year (thought it was funny to cheat on tests and not read the assigned readings to see what they could get away with :eyes: ), but it did teach me that people can just let stuff go in one ear and out the other after the test.

That was in a Catholic college-prep school, btw. My public school government teacher made us memorize all of the amendments and most of the Constitution. His tests were cumulative and nasty. I still remember more of my gov't class than my Hubby does from his.

[seabeyond]

18. us memorize all of the amendments and most of the Constitution

and can you right now write it all down. of course not. you memorized it for class then... let it go.

[knitter4democracy]

36. Give me a bit, and I probably could get a lot of them.

The problem is, it's our government. We can't afford to forget this stuff.

[Occulus]

9. The entire time I was in school,

my education regarding the Declaration of Independence always seemed to stop at the words "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

It's kind of funny, how no teacher ever seemed to feel that the next sentence was in any way important. Nobody- nobody- around me grew up thinking that revolution was/is an even remotely viable option.

[doni_georgia]

10. Depends on the teacher how much emphasis is but on government

I teach 8th grade socials studies. Here is Georgia, that means Georgia studies which includes Georgia and US History and Georgia and US government. I focus HEAVY on government and citizenship, and my kids leave well informed. Unfortunately, most of the other teachers teach this unit straight from the boring textbook and the kids don't learn it. The difference is, I have a degree in political science. I went back to school as an adult and got my teaching certificate after years of working in my field. Most of the other teachers have teaching degrees, where they only take one poli-sci course. They don't feel as comfortable teaching government as they do teaching history or geography.

We just finished our US government unit. While the other teams were reading the textbook and taking tests, my students were researching the issues and candidates in the presidential primaries. My kids had to write voter guides - which we distributed at PTO to parents. My kids also had to write endorsement speeches, create pamphlets on WHY people need to get involved in the election process. My students passed out voter registration info packets at basketball games and PTO, and then they managed a mock Super Tuesday primary - complete with all students having to register to vote, bring student ID, etc. After this was finished. The students had to write essays on what they learned about the experience. I was astounded. These kids could hold their own with any adult in the community - guaranteed. And they not only learned about the candidates, but they learned about the history of our government and how it works. I have never been so proud of my students!

[Bandit]

12. It isn't just kids that know nothing of government or how it functions.

Ask any person on the street and nine out of ten can not tell you who the Speaker of the House is or how many Extreme Court Judges there are or name even one of them. Hell most can't even tell you who the Vice President is. I don't think real Civics have been taught since the sixties..

[doni_georgia]

14. Sad Fact, but for kids to learn, you have to make it relate to them

This is nothing new. Kids believe the world revolves around them, and they don't see any point about learning about a bunch of dead guys that appear to have no bearing on their lives. If you want kids to learn anything (not just government or history) you have to grab them - find something to tie it to their lives and make it real for them. Otherwise they may cram it in for a test, but it is purged and never remembered after that. You want to get kids interested in government? Find the issues that affect them and talk about them. You want kids to learn about history - find some facts - anything - that makes these historical figures real to them. It's not easy for teachers to do this. Especially in this NCLB age of teach to the test. I just ignore the damn test to be honest. Social studies doesn't count toward AYP, so I can get away with it. I do everything short of setting myself on fire to keep these kids interested. We delve into crazy stuff that's not in the curriculum in order to get the kids to the point where they will be interested in the actual curriculum. Funny thing is, I have never had a student fail the state mandated test, and I am the only social studies teacher in my school who does no test prep at all.

[Bandit]

22. My ten year old granddaughter just did a report on Amelia Earhart

I was asking her how it went as it was an oral report and she said OK and I went on to ask her if she liked any of the other kids reports and she said she really liked one on Rosa Parks. It is a start I guess. Thank you for the work you do.. Our nation depends upon folks such as yourself..:thumbsup:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Well, it was required that I knew all the amenments and the basic structure

of government before I could graduate high school

[ThomWV]

15. This is the most important question we can be asking ourselves

I have come back to this post of your a half a dozen times now. I have tried to write a coherent response, quit, started again, quit again, and so on.

Where to start? Is it a question of not understanding the mechanism of government, that A does this and B does that and C does something else and here we are? Is that enough? Probably not.

Well, how about we teach to the historical documents, will that work? Here is the Declaration of Independence, here is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, here is the Federal Budget for the year 2009. Could any student be expected to make any sense of them?

Maybe we have to go back farther, maybe that will help. Do we tell them about Hobbes, Locke - how the two differ and what the effect of these men's writing are on us today? And in turn what about their background - are we in fact the product of the British civil war?

Just how far back do you have to teach for or children to understand the legacy they have to lose?

Can it be taught.

Has our Orwellian corruption of the language left us with the tools to understand our heritage?

There is so much to this and it is of such great importance that I do not even know where to start.

[seabeyond]

16. schools are teaching it. up to student to learn . schools are teaching kids so much

they are learning more and ealier than we did three decades ago and i am tired of people taking it out on the schools. put the blame firmly on the parents shoulders. not only are my children learning this stuff in school, but we actively talk it in home and particpate in the system and we have other sources of info out for children at their leisure to learn more.

i do believe their is a societal dumbing down. the biggest thing my son is getting in the middle school are the boys that insist being dumb is cool. i watched my high school age niece giggle thru knowing the difference of new mexico and mexico. we live in texas.

[LeftyMom]

20. The high schools here only do one semester of gov't and one of econ

I haven't noticed any enormous misconceptions among college students here, fwiw.

I do think it's pretty important to remember that running around with one's hair on fire worrying about the appalling ignorance of the young seems to be a human tradition going back to the ancients, that every generation does it when they get old enough, and that humankind somehow keeps progressing, so apparently those worries are overblown.

[Irishonly]

21. Senior Government/Econ Here

My daughter just completed senior government and the class wasn't too bad. They not only learned the basics but had debates on impeachment, civil rights for gays and abortion. Her teacher was excellent but she's been raised by politically active parents and she knew a lot before the class. She would comment on her classmates, their lack of knowledge and how many of them thought the class was not important. I was really pleased he invited a LA county voter registrar to class and the class was given voter registration forms.

[seabeyond]

23. my son is in 7th taking his soc studies course and will talk current events often

reminds me of my son telling me how much other kids just dont know. how many adults do you walk away from saying they dont know shit.... the kids that are aware are generallyt he kids with parents that are aware.

[Irishonly]

29. You Are Right

We have always talked about current events. My husband is a science buff and I love American History. My daughter loves English. I think parents who take an active interest in their child's schooling help immensely. We never thought the schools were completely responsible for her education. It makes a big difference. I know several Republicans that are always complaining about vouchers because they do not like the public schools but if you ask them if they have ever taken their kid to a science camp or museum they have no clue as to what you are talking about. They place sole responsibility on the schools. These are 'educated' people.

[seabeyond]

32. never thought the schools were completely responsible ... education

you are so right on. yes. thank you. and this is why i am just getting pissed anymore listening to these threads about our kids arent being taught anything. son in 7th and 4th. i have been a part, volunteer and active with boys education for over a decade and i KNOW that is just pure bullshit. i watch ALL the teachers and adm are doing for our kids.

BUT my rw brother who is homeschooling his teenage daughter, and totally has fucked her up and is now sending her to me tomorrow.... for a couple weeks until we can all decide what we will do with her... insists the schools are lousy and my children are not being educated

but i have never simply handed my children over to another entity to raise.... it is my job and these other groups are only there to help.

[DawgHouse]

24. I don't think they teach civics anymore.

I remember my civics class in the ninth grade. I loved it!

[knitter4democracy]

37. It's required by most states.

In Michigan, it's now part of the state mandated curriculum and tests from kindergarten on up.

[DawgHouse]

47. I am certain my son didn't have a civics class the same as mine.

Mine was an entire school year, required in ninth grade for all students. He may have had bits and pieces here and there, probably combined with American History.

[LWolf]

25. "our schools," "the schools" and what we teach:

We teach state standards and benchmarks. Go to your state's education websight and search the standards and benchmarks to see if they are there.

Most history/social studies frameworks don't include much government in elementary school. The curriculum is usually designed around developmental stages, starting with "all about ME" in kindergarten, progressing to my family, neighborhood, community, local region, and then, by about 4th grade, state history, with U.S. history happening in 5th grade, again in 8th, and again in high school.

The first real look at governments happen in 6th grade with the growth and development of ancient civilizations, including Greece and Rome.

While this varies from state to state, the progression is actually pretty close. Classrooms may touch on modern government, but it's not usually a strong focus until 8th grade, when the Constitution is studied (introduced in 5th grade, but explored in more depth in 8th).

That's if all of those standards and benchmarks are actually being taught. In reality, under NCLB, schools focus intensely on reading and math, to the detriment of everything else. When the district is facing sanctions for not making "adequate yearly progress" in reading and math according to the set formula, we are told directly to de-emphasize everything but reading and math. Not to quit teaching it entirely, of course. Just not to spend too much of our time or energy on those things not tested.

I certainly don't want to spend all year long testing social studies, science, PE, music, art, citizenship, penmanship, and everything else we are supposed to do in addition to the constant testing in reading and math. Perhaps less testing, fewer threats, and more time to teach ALL of the curriculum would help.

Edited to add links to your state standards.

elementary:

http://www.alsde.edu/html/sections/documents.asp?section=54&sort=5&footer=sections

grades 7 - 12

http://www.alsde.edu/html/sections/documents.asp?section=54&sort=12&footer=sections

[seabeyond]

28. elementary son loses science and social studies classes during spring

when they are going for the last push before the tak test. favorite classes of his. middle school told elementary students the biggest problem they are having with kids coming up to their school is lack of science with the youngs students. son wants to write a letter to gov perry. he will do that soon once he has a lighter load on homework. fourth grade and getting his writing primed for the writing tak is killing him the last month.

[LWolf]

31. Sounds familiar.

The current system and schedule is grueling and stressful. If we wanted to be more effective, we would enlarge classrooms, reduce class sizes, and invest in a longer school year (not day.) That costs more money, though, than test-bullying.

We'd also invest in some community infrastructure to address the greatest factors involved in school achievement, which are parent ed levels and socio-economic levels.

You know; things like poverty, health care, jobs, living wages. Those cost tons more than standardized tests, too.

[seabeyond]

33. it isnt like their is going to be utopia found and ALL kids will do well in school

never has been, never will be. there will always be those that excel, those that cruise thru and those that drop out. an other expectation is foolishness and cannot be done. give the greatest opportunities with the understanding it is not something ALL our kids will succeed at.

[LWolf]

35. That's true, and that's reality,

but it's not something that we are allowed to say out loud in public education.

My district is currently pushing to make sure that every high school student is enrolled in and passes AP courses.

The results of that effort will either be failure or a dumbing down of AP courses, making the gesture meaningless.

I want to give my students abundant opportunities to learn, and abundant support for their efforts. That's my job. The rest is up to them.

[seabeyond]

38. not something that we are allowed to say out loud

i know. what is that. i have noticed that attitude on this board. it is a bit of snobbery in ways or reverse prejudices.

i am saying, a number of kids dont want to go to school, dont think themselves throw away, useless, or less. they see making an earning in other ways that dont require a college education. they are fine with it. it is groups of adults that are deciding the kids lack for not having it. i am all for the trading school education and other manners. unfortunately in todays society so many of the blue collar jobs that still required smarts (not education) and hard work are no longer, or no longer pay a livable wage. THAT is what i would like to address rather than try to INSIST all students receive a college diploma.

[LWolf]

40. Me, too.

For each to choose the life, and career, that suits him or her best, and to take that path, trade school or college. A living wage and a good standard of living for all.

When I see students who are less academically inclined, but who love art, or love machines, I wonder why their talents are less valued. I certainly value the people who keep my car running, who create beauty in my world, who add their time and passion to help keep us functioning and make our world a place we want to be.

There are a wide range of occupations that don't require college, but are just as valuable to our lives.

College is not a prerequisite to literacy, to thinking. If we focus on teaching people how to think, how to learn, how to find the information they need or desire, we're teaching them to be informed, and to use information to guide their choices. We can do that preschool - high school, if we restructure curriculum to make that the priority.

I was married to a man for 12 years who quit high school and got his GED at 16.

He read books, newspapers, magazines, and online journals. He kept up with current events. He was a better mathematician than I've ever been, with my degrees. He was also a mechanic, a pilot, a welder, and could repair, build, assemble, install, do wiring, plumbing, and just about everything we ever needed. He could also, in a pinch, feed, vaccinate, medicate, play midwife and nurse to, and handle just about any kind of livestock. I always appreciated it, but never more than when I was no longer married to him and had to pay someone to do all those things that I don't know how to do.

[seabeyond]

42. excellent post

thanks for sharing lwolf. loved your post. and again, right on.

[ReformedChris]

26. Teachers in FL are too busy Zombifying kids into passing the F-CRAP test to teach such things..

In Florida we focus on ramming F-CRAP Material down childrens throats to the point of the children having nervous meltdowns. There is no time for teachers to teach anything that far out of the spectrum in any important way. Teaching Civics and how the government works would be a wonderful thing to do. I wish we had more time to teach it here.

[originalpckelly]

30. They used to teach it first year of high school in Denver Public Schools...

but too many kids were failing it, so they moved it to sophomore year.

[ThomWV]

45. Did more students get it a year later than did earlier?

[LibDemAlways]

34. My daughter is a high school freshman. She's been in

the same "blue ribbon" district all her school life. U.S. History was taught in 5th and 8th grade from the early explorers through the Civil War only.

In 11th grade, she will again have US History. I sincerely hope that this time the period from the Civil War to the Present is at least mentioned, but I have my doubts.

Economics and government are covered in 12th grade, a semester each, as was the case 40 years ago when I was a student at a Calif. HS.

One huge difference is that back then teachers often engaged the students in discussions of what we called "current events." That's all gone now. In fact, after the recent primary, a boy in my daughter's English class had to ask the teacher if the class could discuss the results of the primary. She did so reluctantly, because it was taking time from the "standards" that had to be covered.

This testing crap has turned teachers, through no fault of their own, into preprogrammed machines, spewing out state-mandated "facts" that leave little, if any room, for creativity or discussion.

[beevul]

39. It goes farther than that...

People...people I overhear in gas stations...and grocery stores...and hell, even HERE, believe that rights come from the government...or that the constitution CREATES rights...


When people do not have the basics of our own form of govermnet in clear understanding, what difference does it make if they understand ancient roman or russian civilization?

[woo me with science]

43. Well, a lot of teachers don't believe we should teach facts.

They are way too busy teaching "higher level thinking."

Okay, that was sarcastic. But you see it on every damned education thread around here...teachers defending not requiring students to learn basic information that should be part of every curriculum.

Research in cognitive psychology (cf. Robbie Case, among many others...) has illustrated very clearly that kids begin to think on a higher level only once they have a good enough grasp of basic information to see patterns and make connections with all the information they have mastered.

This is part of the dumbing down of America, that so many people believe that high-level thinking is possible without the basics. Try participating in a science thread around here with all the screaming experts who have never taken a basic science course, and you will see the result. People can support Bush only because they HAVE NO IDEA what the Constitution says or how our government works, because they have never been required to learn it.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. I know they do teach it freshman year in HS here

But I think, if kids aren't taught at home that this is something very important, that they just don't often get interested. (Much the way I took health class, lol).

I've met younger adults who say "I'm just not into politics" as if it's something that's a hobby, not something that will affect their lives! It's their excuse for not knowing even the basics about how our country works.

Needless to say, my kids are bathed in it from an early age. We have nightly dinner table discussions about politics and government - they get the message early on that this is very important.

I think that's not the case for a lot of people, and that message is passed on to their kids.

[RedCappedBandit]

46. I dunno about the rest of the country..

but where i'm from (long island) i dont experience that level of ignorance.

I go to school upstate though, and I get a different impression up here.

I guess it all depends.

[nemo137]

48. At least in the state of Illinois, a test on the Constitution is required for graudation

I remember having nightmares about not passing, and then getting a 98% on it (I mixed up the 9th and 10th amendments, and forgot my state senator's name). So, civics is definitely taught, but might go in one ear and out the other.