In the entire history of the world, has there ever been a political philosophy

[leftofthedial]

that has failed so utterly, so swiftly as the American "conservative" philosophy?

I can think of no other approach to governance or to the management of an economy that has been such an unmitigated disaster.

State capitalism (Stalinesque "Communism") was pretty unsuccessful, but it lasted three quarters of a century. Nazism flamed out quickly, but hasn't really gone away, thriving wherever capitalists rule. The German Reich was brought down, not by a failure of the Nazis to govern, but by the megalomaniacal overreaching of its leaders.

American "conservatives" have had control of this country for seven years, thirty at the extreme outside, if you consider raygun as the birth of the death of our country. In that brief eyeblink of time, they've managed to take the world's wealthiest superpower and turn it into a 90-pound weakling, with a broken military, a fanatically divided populace, an economy that won't recover for a generation or longer, a crumbling out-dated infrastructure, a mass ignorant population with no skills to take themselves into the future, a completely dysfunctional educational system, a health-care system that is the envy of NO ONE except the insurance industry, and a political system so corrupt and so controlled by corporations that it can no longer even be considered "government" in any real sense of the word.

And we still are awash in ignorant SUV-driving gomers and goobers who think of themselves as "conservatives," even as their loved ones die from lack of health care, they lose their jobs by the tens of thousands, their homes are taken . . .

Maybe we *should* all support the arrogant tool of the oligarchs, Nader, not because he espouses ideals more attuned to Democratic ideals than either of the "democratic" candidates, but because it is a sure way to put John McCrazy-McBush in the White House, thus ensuring that this Untied States of Moronica will hit bottom sooner and harder. Maybe then we can rebuild a country worth living in.

[rainy]

I said that in another post. We have to hit rock bottom before the rest

wake up enough to see the light.

[leftofthedial]

4. most in this country have become addicted to the lies the politicians tell them

that phony world painted constantly on talk radio and in the delusional ravings of our current politicians is like cheap wine to a juicehead. Addicts can't get well until they hit bottom.

[blues90]

19. We have had a phony world as long as I have been alive

At 59 i do realize everything has been a sales pitch for the shear motive of moving products whether the products were toasters and are now human labor .

I find it almost beyond belief that most people are part of this political race if they know what's going on at all . I think the few who do vote , vote in the moment based on which sales pitch has been driven into their conscience the deepest .

It's a scam and a macabra of a joke on a mass scale far beyond what has ever happened before .

We are told we have choices however , what are they other than a glimpse into a fast moving blur of colors and banners and fancy slogans where you grab what you can before your arm gets taken off .

I look at the political world much like the world of product selection where there are 100 brands of tooth paste where all serve the same purpose yet they are sold as special and different .

The world of advertisment is a well advanced science based on sparking an emotion even if it is deep within the sub- conscience mind .

If you use just the example of plastic surgery where women are made to feel the breast implant of the injection to produce plumped up lips will make your life somehow better , I have to wonder how blured the vision is of these people when they look into the mirror , what do they really see , what is realy there or what their mind has been programed to ignore .

[leftofthedial]

25. might as well be the matrix

hardly anyone is "awake"

[lynnertic]

1. well geez happy good morning to you too

:(

[leftofthedial]

2. cheers!

:D

:toast:

[izquierdista]

3. Long way to go

To hit bottom. Look at Afghanistan. They have been bouncing along on the bottom, taking boulders to the face for years, yet they STILL have religious nutcases saying that all the problems will go away if the women wear less revealing burkas.

The problem with conservatism is that you have to EDUCATE people out of it. No education, conservatism will continue to hold sway. Let the general population get a little education and it is a broadening experience. As in, it makes people more liberal to have a liberal education.

Conservatism is all about dialing back the clock. This bunch have dialed back the economic parameters to the Gilded Age, and they are working on the social parameters as well.

[leftofthedial]

5. good point about education

:thumbsup:

[rainy]

15. The problem with Afghanistan is that too many outsiders try to manipulate

the government there for pipelines etc... This creates a void for extremists to fill. The natural leaders that the people of Afghanistan would choose are made to look like villains so that the puppet leaders can be installed.

[leftofthedial]

23. Afghanistan has been a tribal society forever

and no one has succeeded in uniting the country, much less conquering it.

[ThomWV]

6. You missed it by 6 years

Mussolini's facist Government lasted 21 years, if you mark the beginning of the current fiasco from Reagan's election its 26 years.

So Mussolini and facism fell faster than the Reagan conservatives.

[leftofthedial]

7. reagan conservatives did not control America until 1994

we had divided government before then, (although admittedly, the "democrats" have not provided much by way of opposition),

but fascism didn't go away, it just moved to asia, central and south america, africa and wherever else capitalism was served by keeping totalitarian fucks in power.

[End Of The Road]

8. There are conservatives, and then there are neo-conservatives

And they're not alike.

http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2006/05/02/43338.aspx

I believe it's the neocon ideology that's bringing us down. Right now, a true, honest conservative would look like the savior himself (herself!) compared to the evil that is neoconservatism.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like conservatives either; I'm a social liberal to the core. I just think it's important to distinguish between the two ideologies for better understanding of "the enemy."

On edit: I hope the link is not to a DU-banned site. I'm not endorsing the site at all -- just used it because it has a useful side-by-side comparison. I'm not looking to be TSed.

[leftofthedial]

12. the conservatives, paleo-conservatives, whatever you want to call them

are the root of the problem. They, not neocons, are the reason raygun was elected twice and bushes--friggin bushes!--were "elected three times. Long before the neocons stole power inside the "conservative" movement, the paleo-conservatives were dedicated to a destroy-America agenda.

They abhor taxes--ALL taxes. They have sought relentlessly to destroy public education since the 1940s. They have sought relentlessly to destroy unions. They have sought relentlessly to overturn Social Security and all other vestiges of the New Deal. Neocons just added rabid American imperialism and domestic totalitarianism to the mix.

[End Of The Road]

14. Just to be clear about Ronnie

his administration was positively LOADED with neoconservatives.

Neoconservatism did not just pop up during the last seven years. Take Rummy, for instance. He was lying and employing the politics of fear as far back as the Ford administration. Maybe even longer, since he was first elected as a U.S. rep in 1957 (I think).

And neoconservatism is not going to go away with the election of a democrat in 2008. That's one reason, among several, that I think we need to investigate/impeach/indict a bunch of them in the current admin. At least they would be publicly discredited.

Look at how they are going to continue to influence public opinion with Kristol at the NYT and Rove on Fox.

[leftofthedial]

20. the neocons definitely dominated raygun's administration

helped get him shot in all likelihood and pulled the puppet strings as the last shreds of his mind fell away.

The neocons hijacked the "conservative" agenda, jacked it up on crank and steroids and shoved it up the ass of America. They are war criminals and traitors.

But it was the mainstream repuke/"conservative" agenda of eliminating all taxes, putting off investment in any shared infrastructure, destruction of public education, privatization of everyfuckingthing--all heartfelt principles of regular, run-of-the-mill American "conservatives" on Main Streets, in country clubs and boardrooms all over America--that is the heart of the collapse of this country. The neocons just made it happen faster.

[LeftishBrit]

31. I agree

I think it can be very tempting to see 'paleoconservatives' as less bad because *right now* their isolationism makes them oppose the Iraq war. But they are really at least as bad as the neocons. They are extremely right-wing economically and socially (and these attitudes when taken to extremes are literally deadly to many people); often seriously racist; and their isolationism at another time could have resulted in Hitler taking over Europe.

These are the people who hated FDR and fought his policies tooth and nail; who opposed civil rights and social liberalization. In a raw form, these were the 19th century British right-wingers who did everything they could to crush the poor, and destroy the nascent trade-union movement and opposed even the smallest steps toward women's rights. In a somewhat attenuated, but still thoroughly nasty, form, they were the 1980s British right-wingers who brought Thatcher to power, and helped her to damage and in some cases destroy some of the best things in our society. In the worst form, they are the British National Party; the Europaean supporters of LePen and other fascist types; the American supporters of Pat Buchanan and even David Duke.

We should stand firm against *all* right-wingers.

[leftofthedial]

32. The neocons have at least shown that the fundamental principles of "conservatism"

are a load of crap. They don't work. They destroy economies and impoverish people.

Conservatism is an utter failure.

[End Of The Road]

37. Neocons do not embody the fundamental conservative principls

I really hesitate to weigh in again here, because I don't want to sound like a conservative apologist. I'm not one, I swear to God.

Among the things ruining the economy is free trade agreements and outsourcing. Old-school conservatives have generally been opposed to free-trade agreements.

Old-school conservatives believe in limited government spending, small government, non-interventionist policies. Neocons just the opposite. Old conservatives are for decentralized gov (states rights), neocons for big centralized gov.

Like I said earlier, I hate them both, but the two ideologies have very different roots.

[leftofthedial]

38. Ohhh. that must be why they opposed all Bush's tax cuts.

(Funny, I thought it was their idea). Hmm.

And why they've fought hard for stricter corporate governance and more regulation.

(Weird, I thought they pretty much told every government regulatory agency to take an 8-year vacation.)

And why they hate spending money on the military, etc. etc.


Conservatives have not put their money where their mouth is on state's rights since the civil rights act . . .

They have never actually delivered on smaller government rhetoric--every repuke since Teddy Roosevelt INCREASED the size of the federal government--they still talk about it, but they haven't even pretended to practice that since WWII . . .


The neocons hijacked the conservative movement and have basically a fascist zeal for conservative ideals. They are certainly NOT the same people, although a strong case could be made that the neocons are a subset of conservatives. The argument that they are not, given their leadership of the conservative movement for more than a generation, is a bit like one sect of Christians claiming that another sect are not *real* Christians because they do not share some particular dogmatic orthodoxy.

But neocons HAD to enlist the political support and votes of conservatives in order to take power. Neocons represent what? About .0001% of the population? Since taking power, they have put forward an aggressive conservative agenda with regard to taxes, military spending, civil liberties, social spending . . .


My point in this thread is that although neocons are not completely identical to paleo/old-school/country-club conservatives, the heart of the destruction of America has been due to purely, conventionally well-recognized conservative principles: cut taxes, especially on the wealthy; spend more on the military; spend less on social programs; deregulate and whenever possible privatize; champion laissez fair capitalism; suppress minority voting; etc. The proverbial Republican grandfather would have recognized and championed most of these ideas. CONSERVATIVE IDEALS are what has killed us.


Is supply-side economics conservative or neoconservative? If neoconservative, and if the two are distinct, why did rank-and-file repukes overwhelmingly vote in favor off its proponents for the last 30 years?

[treestar]

9. K&R

This is a great sum up of the last thirty years. This philosophy does not work! When are the voters going to figure that out?

[leftofthedial]

21. thanks.

voters won't figure this out apparently.

they look at what is offered by the corporations to us in 2008 and think it represents "change"?

I wanna :puke:

[izquierdista]

10. You're both off

Not 1994, not 1981, this shit has been going on since Tricky Dick showed up with his "secret plan" to end the VietNam war. Secret plan to turn the country into a fascist paradise is more like it.

What liberal presidents have we had since 1969? Carter? A southern governor who was acceptable because he was pious in his private life and prudent with his spending? No, as much as I admire Jimmy for what he had done since he left the White House, I would NEVER call him a liberal. He barely had time to make up for the destruction Nixon caused and he was out in four years.

Clinton? Please, another southern governor who won mostly because Ross Perot siphoned off more votes from the Repubs that he did from the Dems. NAFTA was not a liberal program, ending "welfare as we know it" was not a liberal idea, about the only thing Bill was liberal with was unzipping his fly.

Since 1969, there has been no progress on a national health care system, but plenty on privatized insurance and HMOs. Since 1969, the defense budget has managed to increase monotonically, with no regard to events in the outside world. Despite the invention of the Internet (and while it may not have been Al Gore, it sure wasn't some Repub stooge that gets credit), America's infrastructure peaked in the 1960s and the only things that have been built since are more highways and gated communities.

No, I think they have had a lot longer to ruin things than you think.

[leftofthedial]

13. American Conservativism has been pursuing its agenda since their coup against FDR failed

they've fought the New Deal ever since.

America has *never* had a truly liberal government--even FDR was just moderate by global political standards.

But the conservatives have not enjoyed unfettered control until 1994 when they took Congress and worked with a conservative President Clinton to implement a radical "free" trade agenda, began dismantling the social safety net and set the stage for the coup of 2000.

[eleny]

11. Nader's candidacy will not get any kind of major suppport

He appears to send people around here into frenzies. But the most we can hope for as liberal Dems is that he'll pull our Party toward liberal positions such as getting corporate profit out of the health care system. Kucinich couldn't get that accomplished. I guess our Party is pretty moderate.

[AndyTiedye]

17. Nader Didn't Get Any Major Support in 2000 Either

He still cost us the election.

[eleny]

18. Gore could't even carry his own state of TN

Even Gore admits his flaws. I voted for him and would again - but he didn't lose just because of one other candidate.

[ThomWV]

27. And still managed to get the majority of the votes nation-wide.

[leftofthedial]

24. 2000 was a coup

Jesus F'ing Christ couldn't have won.

[citizen snips]

16. marxism was a disappointment.

[leftofthedial]

22. when?

[kentuck]

26. It should be in the trash heap of history.

It has utterly failed.

[leftofthedial]

33. this should be screaming from headlines and blaring from every radio in America

It should be the rallying cry of every truly Democratic candidate.

But what I hear is "Democrats" going along, getting along, fiddling around the edges and refusing to fight for REAL change away from the conservative policies that have ruined this country.

[KG]

28. not sure why you think American "conservative" philosophy has failed

it is far from dead. very much alive. so alive that the the dem party is shamelessly pandering to american conservatism every day in their struggle to win an election.

[leftofthedial]

34. you touch on a good point, albeit tangentially . . .

"conservatism" survives as a marketing meme. It may well serve, as a brand name, to get someone elected. It has utterly and unambiguously failed as a means of governing a nation or of structuring its economy. The message has not yet reached the gomers and goobers of this country.

It is true, too, that both Clinton and Obama are fundamentally one with the conservative status quo. They propose minor fiddling around the margins, but stay far away from proposing any real change. Even their rhetoric of change is shallow and superficial.

[Tyler Durden]

29. You aren't FREE until you hit bottom.

We will all keep accepting the bailouts, the baksheesh, being left until last to be imprisoned, drafted, or killed.

"Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out."

Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Communism and Nazism are the most obvious ones.

You may think America has gone down the tubes recently, but compared with Russia, China, Cambodia etc it's flourishing. WW2 and the holocaust make Iraq, Afghanistan etc look like very small beer indeed.

Sorry to be so boring, but sometimes the obvious answer is the correct one.

[KansDem]

35. Well, I wouldn't call it a "conservative 'philosophy'"

"Philosophy" means "lover of wisdom" and I don't associate that with American conservatives.

I'd opt for "American 'conservative' horseshit"

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. The cornerstone of ideological conservatism is ignorance.

Without ignorance, the rest of the structure composed of intolerance, greed, self-aggrandizement, belligerence and myopic self-interest, cannot stand.

[Orsino]

39. It hasn't failed completely...

...as corporate conservatism guarantees that media outlets are bought up by corporate conservatives, muzzling the marketplace of ideas and artificially prolonging conservatism.

Conservatism is indeed failing, but it's also a trap that prevents our extricating ourselves until disaster strikes. I am very much afraid that our nation can only change by collapsing.