Have you ever killed someone in self defense? (not during wartime)

[walldude]

I pretty much stay out of the Gun control threads because I have no real feelings for the issue. As long as you aren't pointing your gun at me, have at it. However, after seeing the relish and joy which some DU'ers have expressed with the homeowner who had to shoot an armed burglar, I was wondering how many have had to actually take a human life.

I have known 2 people in my life who have had to kill someone in self defense, and both of them, even though totally justified in what they did, have never been the same since. One was my dad, he was a cop who killed a guy who drew his weapon, he ended up so haunted by this that he quit the force and crawled inside a bottle for the rest of his life. The other was a friend who killed a guy in a home invasion. He actually took a bullet in the cheek and still had a hard time living with what he had to do, I last spoke to him about 15 years ago and he still couldn't sleep through the night 5 years after it happened.

I just don't understand the callousness. Unless this homeowner has no humanity in him he is going to be haunted by this, even though he was totally righteous in what he did. I for one, judging by what my father went through, wouldn't want people telling me what a great shot it was, or calling it a "good shoot" if I was forced to take the life of another. So has anyone, especially the people yelling "great shot", had to take the life of another and when you did it, did you consider it a "good shoot"?

Edit to include link to shooting thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2926858&mesg_id=2926858

[Iris]

1. Excellent and thought-provoking post.

[SoFlaJet]

8. holy shit

yes, in fact I am a serial killer and have someone in my trunk duct taped up as we speak-my freezer is stocked with body parts I'm just waiting until after dinner so I can re-stock it...

[walldude]

18. Um.. last I checked serial killers don't shoot in self-defense

Or... did I miss something?

[NC_Nurse]

2. Hell no!

I'm all about saving lives. O8)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Yup.

My sensei. His life was not a bed of roses afterwards, either. His face had to be rebuilt with silver and teflon implants, for one.

Then there was the trial he had to go through, thanks to an over-zealous prosecutor.

He was not proud of what he did. To say the least.

[slackmaster]

4. Taking self-defense classes made me think about that a lot

The reality is that if you are ever forced by circumstances to use deadly force, your life is likely to be changed forever in some way. You are likely to go to jail, if only briefly. You are likely to be sued. You are likely to be socially ostracized.

I've always been taught that shooting someone (or stabbing, or using empty hand techniques) is literally the last thing you want to do, that you do so only to protect something that you would be willing to die for.

[Lex1775]

6. Some people handle it better than others.

I know some people who have and they have nightmares about it.

I know some people who have and they have zero remorse about it.

EDIT: Oops, this should've been a reply to the original post, sorry slackmaster.

[Virginia Dare]

15. A local priest shot a guy who was robbing his safe..

that was a rather thought-provoking incident.

[Aviation Pro]

5. No...

...and I don't intend to put myself in that position.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. K&R!

Excellent post.

[conscious evolution]

9. No,but I have put several people into a hospital.

Two were bullies when I was a kid and I finally reached a breaking point with them.
Those two incidents never bother me these days.
The last two were a speed dealer and his goon trying to intimidate me into be quite about what they were doing. They used pepper spray on me and I was fighting blind otherwise I would have killed them.
Good thing I didn't kill them.I still have nightmares over it as it is.

[AZ Criminal JD]

64. Tough guy on the anonymous internet

[conscious evolution]

73. Defending myself

makes me a tough guy?
Whatever.

[AZ Criminal JD]

75. Everybody kicks everybody else's ass on the internet

How come no one ever loses a fight? Someone must lose fights. I guess they don't have internet access.

[conscious evolution]

76. The OP did not ask

if anyone has had their ass kicked.
Until I snapped on the bullies I got my ass kicked a lot while growing up.Since then I have had my ass stomped only once.Deserved so I might add.Had a few draws also.
Mainly though,I prefer to walk away from a fight if I can do so.

Now that I think about it asking if anyone else here has their butt kicked might make for an interesting OP.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. No. Not sure I could.

If my children were being threatened, I would disembowel him/her without hesitation, but for property? I don't think I could do it.

[tularetom]

11. No but I shot a burglar in the ass with a pellet gun

and I gotta tell you it's a good thing the pellet gun was the only thing I could reach or I probably would have at least seriously disabled him. I drove up the driveway and caught him coming out of my garage with my chain saw in his hand. He took off. The pellet gun was under my car seat. I grabbed it and chased him. As he ran around the corner of the barn I chased him while I pumped the gun yelling at him to drop the saw. Finally I got close enough to get off a shot. I aimed for his hand hoping he would drop it but missed hitting him in the "upper thigh". He hollered and dropped the saw but kept on running. By the time I stopped and retrieved the saw he had got out to the road and got into his car and drove away. The sheriff caught him later when he went to an emergency room for treatment. I was severely chastized by the cops for not just letting the guy go and calling them but they never filed any charges.

I took a ration of shit from a lot of people for shooting a guy in the ass. I don't think I would do that again but if I saw someone in my hallway coming toward me with any type of firearm I'm afraid I'd do exactly what that homeowner did. Maybe I'd feel like shit about it later but it seems to me it's a life or death situation.

[slackmaster]

21. I shot a dog in the ass, lightly, with a pellet gun once

Never saw it again.

[AZ Criminal JD]

63. What a hero

[jmg257]

12. Have you ever been in a fight? Were you all upset afterwards because you won?

Now imagine that you are in a fight for your life - that the guy you're facing is trying TO KILL YOU (or your kids, or your wife)...why would you feel bad for him if you won?

BTW, I am not talking about being stressed about courts and lawsuits and all the possible/probable fall out - definitely could be something to worry about there - most people have alot to lose. But YOU ARE ALIVE!


Of course not eveyone will feel this way. That is understood. Hopefully the person in question will not let it bother him too much, as he was (apparently) amply justified in doing what he had to to survive.

[walldude]

16. Luckily I've managed to go my entire life without having

to resort to violence. I believe there is a difference between killing a man and punching him in the face though, and you answered my question with a question. I already explained that the two people I know had a hard time dealing with it. My dad told me that unless you've actually done it, you will never know how it feels.

[jmg257]

17. Like I said - how your Dad feels is understood. Not eveyone will be the same.

[slackmaster]

19. Not as upset I was after getting my ass beaten up

:D

[jmg257]

23. Ha! :) Losing sucks doesn't it?

[slackmaster]

27. It sure does, but I've carried a knife for self-defense almost every day since that one

Almost 35 years and haven't been in anything resembling a fight since then.

Except that time back in the 80s when my roommate, in a drunken rage, attacked me with a post hole digger and ended up with a broken ankle...

[panader0]

13. I live out in the boonies and never lock my door.

I am poor, and have nothing worth stealing (except my Gibson ES335). I would die for my kids or my SO. But kill? no. The idea of taking someone's life is against my beliefs. If I had a home invader, I would tell them to take what they need. Trying to be as non-violent as possible. People who break into your house are usually looking for something of value to steal to buy drugs. If you aren't threatening, everything should go well. If someone wanted to break into my house in the day when I'm not at home, they could break a window or knock the door down with nary a soul to hear itor see it. So why lock?

[comradebillyboy]

14. I don't think I would lose too much sleep

if I shot an intruder in my home or in defending the lives of my family, my self or an innocent bystander. But I am not going to wait for the cops to come and save me because they won't. I certainly don't go looking for trouble and my concealed carry training has made me very aware of what constitutes legal justification to use deadly force in New Mexico.

[sandnsea]

20. Some people don't know they're changed

Or don't know their dismissiveness is really just false bravado burying pain too overwhelming for them to handle. I don't think anybody kills someone else without suffering from it.

[gateley]

22. Years ago on Johnny Carson a guest sang a haunting song from the play

"Mata Hari". It was a letter from a young boy to his mother, telling of being in war, that the enemy looks "just like me, mama", and "can I kill, mama?". He relays the story of the interaction with this other kid - this other soldier sent out to fight for his country, and in the end, he says "yes, mama, I can." The song leaves you feeling that he is heartbroken to have taken another life, and that he saw no victory, only a loss of who he believed himself to be.

At the time I gave it much thought and honestly felt I couldn't take another life even if mine was in jeopardy.

Since then, I have been attacked and robbed at gunpoint. I don't think, if I'd had a gun, that I would have necessarily pulled the trigger unless I felt my life was in danger, but I KNEW that, despite my prior beliefs, that if it came down to him or me, I would do whatever it took to stay alive, including taking his life.

On the thread you link to, if there was a home invasion - which is in itself a violent, threatening act - and someone was coming at me with an assault rifle -- an assault rifle! -- as I posted there, I couldn't shoot him dead enough. He has no right to take my life.

I may suffer remorse or crawl into a bottle like your dad did, but I learned that it's instinctive to do what it takes to stay alive.

[walldude]

24. I fully agree with everything in your post....

what caused me to write this post was people were cheering the guy on in that thread, like it was all well and good, and I wondered how many who are so quick to crack the champaign actually had to live with something like this.. Turns out, not too many.


"Mata Hari". It was a letter from a young boy to his mother, telling of being in war, that the enemy looks "just like me, mama", and "can I kill, mama?"

Funny you mention that, I still have the letters my grandfather wrote to my grandmother during WWII. He died at Normandy. The thing I remember most about his letters was that he always wrote how he didn't really "hate the enemy" he was just doing what needed to be done.

[gateley]

32. You must treasure those letters - you're so lucky to have them.

They show the pain of war - what we do to those we make fight for us. How tragic he was killed there - just doing what needed to be done. :cry:

I just looked up Mata Hari -- it was in 1967. That song made a strong impression on me - I still think of it 40 years later.

[Recursion]

25. You said "not in war"; just curious why?

Pretty much everything I know about killing and death I learned in Iraq. But I guess I see the point that war is different.

[walldude]

29. Well I think there is a huge difference between a soldier and

civilian having to shoot someone. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the effect on a person is any different, but going into a war zone you pretty much are expecting to have to fire your weapon, killing goes with the turf so to speak. For me the effect is the same though, I would never congratulate you on the amount of kills you got in Iraq, however I would congratulate you on getting in and out of there with some semblance of your sanity and humanity in tact. All of the soldiers I know wouldn't wish what they had to go through on anyone, most won't even talk about the things they did and saw because people who didn't go through it would never understand. Same principle with the home invasion shooting, unless you have had to take a life to protect your own you will not know what the shooter is going though, yet people felt the need to cheer him on rather than to feel for what he is going to have to live with.


BTW thanks for your service, I hope you are home and not having to go back...

[Papagoose]

26. My father did

He was robbed at his place of business by armed intruders. In the chaos and in his anger, and STUPIDLY, he fired a shot into the darkness towards them and hit one in the back. My dad called 911 and held the man in his arms until the police arrived; unfortunately the 'victim' died the next morning. My dad was charged with first degree murder, convicted of third degree murder and sentenced to 10-20 years in prison. He was diagnosed with cancer 5 years into his term, never received proper treatment and was mentally destroyed by guilt. He died at age 70, after 11 years in prison, just months from being paroled.

The highly political prosecutors, judge & Tom Ridge's Parole Board in my dad's case are the people responsible for making me aware of the cruelty and callousnous of Republicans.

[Lex1775]

28. Wow. What state was this in?

[walldude]

30. State of insanity if you ask me....

[Papagoose]

34. PA

[rockymountaindem]

45. That's bullshit man

I Colorado I think he would have been totally within his rights.

[hlthe2b]

49. damn, Papagoose... Now your post is thought provoking.

I'm very sorry for what happened....

[RamboLiberal]

66. I know some DU'ers rail against such laws but I think your dad

is a case that argues for Castle Doctrine or no retreat laws such as in Texas & Florida. Yeah, they can be abused, but unfortunately there are also DA's who will charge someone who is defending himself with murder or manslaughter in cases like your dad.

When the sh*t is hitting the fan with armed criminals how the hell can someone be expected to have to think through whether or not to pull the trigger on the criminal.

I feel bad for what happened to your dad and you.

And as a CCW holder in PA I realize how easily I could be in your dad's shoes.

[msedano]

31. cold war korea

we had infiltrators. a couple of guys got ambushed one night in another unit, doing the same job i did from time to time--replacing commo lines stolen for the copper. don't know if that was locals who panicked, or infiltrators. but the news heightened the awareness of the necessity to kill or be killed. interesting memory. see http://www.readraza.com/hawk/pages/ah2ovpetfrog_jpg.htm

one night we had infiltrators come into our area. i went out looking for them with the intent to kill. didn't meet up with them, but the korean army killed two of them twenty miles south of us in kap yong.

i feel for your dad. my condolences.

mvs

[Unrepentant Fenian]

33. Not exactly on topic.

I have had to kill in combat and it never really bothered me, and THAT bothered me for awhile. I was not raised to kill, even though my Father was a decorated World War II vet. He never talked about combat to us kids. He talked about good German beer and French brandy, but never about combat, even though he saw plenty of it. He was wounded and was awarded the Bronze Star for bravery during the Battle of the Bulge.
Even though my actions never really bothered me, they brought about a great sense of disgust for anyone who glorifies war without having ever been there. I don't think that I deserve any special treatment for my Veteran status, it's something I did, nothing more. But when some body says "Thank you for your service" ,( even though they are well meaning) I really want to tell them to "Fuck Off". I sure as hell didn't do it for "Thanks" from you or anyone else. I do occasionally carry a pistol for protection and would never hesitate to use it to save my own or someone else's life. But there is no possession on this Earth that I would kill to protect. I truly believe in each person's right to carry a firearm to protect themselves. I believe that as strongly as I believe that anyone who uses a firearm to protect property should be jailed for a very long time and prohibited from owning a firearm for as long as they live after they get out of prison. As a side note, I would probably use a firearm to protect my dog, but have no problem with anyone who hunts legally. That's all I got......

[walldude]

36. Actually it was right on topic friend...

The point of the thread wasn't really about killing in self defense, it was about cheerleading someone who did if you have no idea what it's like. I believe you hit on my exact sentiments with this statement:

they brought about a great sense of disgust for anyone who glorifies war without having ever been there.


Cheers :toast:

[Unrepentant Fenian]

Thank you

[silverlib]

35. I had a gun in my lap in a recliner by my front door

all one night in 1981. A man had broken into my apartment the night before and tried to rape my 16 yr. old daughter. He had garters and women's hose on and was quite frightful, but she awoke in time to scream and scare him off. I awoke to her screams and the front door slamming. (He had come in through a window). She ended up with a busted lip and nightmares for quite some time. I borrowed the gun and even told the police my intent and hope that he would return to the scene of the crime. They instructed me to unload the gun - not to quit firing once I started and that if I shot him on the porch, to drag him in, and they would help me clean up the blood. I knew I could do it. I sat all night and waited. He didn't come back and, to this day, I thank my lucky stars. It took me a week to realize that I could have ended up just as your father. My case was vengeful justice and not self-defense, but too close for comfort just the same. I certainly agree with you and came closer to killing a human being than I ever wish to come again.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. My half-brother shot and killed my father.

In, at least, what he perceived as self-defense. He was 15 at the time. My father was a violent drunk and had threatened to kill the whole family after another trip to the bar across the street. When he returned, my brother shot him.

It was ruled justifiable manslaughter and he served no time.

I was 4 at the time but still remember it vividly. I've only spoken to him once in the last 30 years and he seems fine. But, it did cause pain for many in the family.

I'm a big fan of gun-control.

[K8-EEE]

38. OMG!!!!!!!!!!

Well....that's quite a story, very sad!

And no, I've lived in L.A. all my life and never known one fortunate incident to happen involving a gun. God knows if you read FR you would picture every old lady knocking off a couple of muggers on the way to the grocery store every morning but I'm 48 and every gun incident I've ever heard of within my friends and family has been a tragedy.

[idovoodoo]

39. If there had been more gun control, you might not have lived to write that post.

You ought to be glad your half brother got rid of the violent drunk...
:eyes:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. There were alternatives avalable.

Fleeing, calling the cops, locking him out, ridding the house of guns, etc.

[idovoodoo]

43. No offense but those sound like 20-20 hindsight.

At least the way you wrote that little vignette made it appear those alternatives were NOT easily available...and if you were 4 years old, well, your memories of that time are going to be 99% colored by what you heard about it since...NOT by what your own brain retained.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. And, you're basing your conclusions on what?

On a vignette? I've been aware of it, and the details of it, for most of my life.

[Truth2Tell]

40. Thanks for this thread! Recommended. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

41. I truly don't think I'm capable of it

And I'm positive that even if I were, it would scar me deeply.

[idovoodoo]

44. I shot a bully in the ass with a pellet gun when I was 10. He had been

tormenting meand my friends for months and I finally had enough. It barely broke the skin of his butt but it damn sure got him off my case.
(I COULD have used my .22/.410 over and under and killed the little (big) shit but being well-taught about guns I knew
that wasn't an acceptable response)

[Canuckistanian]

46. No, I haven't

But I remember a Time-Life magazine article a long time ago about a security guard who was forced to shoot a deranged man who had taken a woman hostage with a knife.

If the guard hadn't taken the guy out, the woman most certainly would have been killed.

But what I remember is that the article mentioned that the incident clearly shook up the security guard and that the guard would need therapy to come to terms with the fact that he had just killed someone.

Now THAT is the sign of normalcy. That causing someone else's death is ABNORMAL and DISTURBING, no matter what the reason.

[Hekate]

47. Thanks Walldude. This is a good OP and a good thread. And my answer is thankfully No.

[Mugu]

48. I believe that there are several reasons that cause people to cheer

when they hear about somebody successfully defending themselves. First, if there is going to be an armed conflict it is only right that the defender survive rather than the aggressor. Second, for every perpetrator that somebody else kills, that's one less that I have to worry about encountering. Third, hearing about people defending themselves might persuade potential aggressors to rethink their life (now possibly death) choices. Forth, it's easy to cheer anonymously on the internet without actually understanding just how traumatic it is to take another's life, even if taking that life was the only option.

I have known several people who have killed or attempted to kill. You are correct that for each one of them it was a life altering event. But, I have yet to meet anybody that wished that the confrontation turned out the opposite.

I long ago decided to avoid situations that might put me in the position of needing to defend myself. Hanging out in taverns, messing with married women, etc. However, I also adopted the attitude that if someone comes into my home uninvited that they were committing suicide rather than I am killing them. Like the people that commit suicide by cop, it's not my fault when aggressors confront me in my own home. Don't come in my home uninvited and your chance of being killed by me is zero.

I won't like it, but I'll do it and live with it.

Regards, Mugu

[Marr]

50. Yeah but dey wu all bad.

[U4ikLefty]

51. I shot a snowball-thrower just to watch him die

...and don't you blame my gun.

[RB TexLa]

52. No, and I would only do so to defend my wife or brother's lives, not my own.

[Mugu]

53. So in your eyes, your life is worth less than a murderer's.

Your choice, but to me that's just plain pathetic. Just how bad do you have to be to be better than a murderer?

Regards, Mugu

[RB TexLa]

65. The murderer has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's about me.

I've always felt that if in a situation of having to kill someone or be killed by someone that I would and that it would be a problem to live with. I have met a person who had to do just that, and he has suffered his entire life because of it. He didn't have any legal trouble and was morally and ethically in the right but that hasn't prevented it from effecting him. I chose not to go through that. There is nothing I gain from and too much to possibly go through from killing someone to prevent them from killing me. If it's preventing someone from killing my wife I do get something, more years with my wife, in that situation I am rewarded for my action in the other I am not.

[Mugu]

68. So you would be willing to give your life for your wife's,

but not to defend your own? I truly don't wish to be confrontational, but why is your life less valuable?

Regards, Mugu

Edit: wording problem.

[RB TexLa]

71. Has nothing to do with any value of anyone's life. I'll just copy and paste

I have met a person who had to do just that, and he has suffered his entire life because of it. He didn't have any legal trouble and was morally and ethically in the right but that hasn't prevented it from effecting him. I chose not to go through that. There is nothing I gain from and too much to possibly go through from killing someone to prevent them from killing me.

[tuckessee]

54. If you were threatened would you summon others to do the killing for you?

Like the police?

[RB TexLa]

55. no

[Mugu]

57. No what?

[RB TexLa]

59. No I wouldn't call any police, I've never called the police for anything in my life

[tuckessee]

58. That's consistent.

You have my respect.

[penguin7]

56. I Have killed animals (not in self defense) and felt very bad about it.

[Mugu]

60. As well you should.

That's what keeps you (us) from committing atrocities.

Regards, Mugu

[dysfunctional press]

61. no. but it also wouldn't bother me to do so- in self-defense that is.

although i sure as hell hope the situation never arises, as i can tend to be one of those people who "freeze up" in a situation like that...BUT- if i was able to "prevail", it wouldn't bother me to take the life of someone who was trying to take mine.

[The Straight Story]

62. self delete

(nt)

[eridani]

69. Studies of cops who commit suicide--

--having shot and killed someone was a very big risk factor. It made not the slightest difference whether the shooting was later ruled as justifiable or not.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

70. I have never been in a position to deal with this, but...

I have an unusual perspective as it relates to life. I see a much bigger position than most and see us as more of a grain of sand in an infinite universe and our individual lives as essentially irrelevant. As such, I have as of yet, never been in a position where I have had to deal with this issue but, I don't think I would have a problem ending someone elses life to defend my own or that of my families.

I owned guns when I was young, 11, 12, and had not owned any for about 40 years after. Never even thought about it. Now, at 57, after watching the Bush Junta do such a good job protecting the residents of N.O. I realized that the only person I could depend on in an emergency was myself. I now own so many guns that my grandson, a cop, recently saw my collection and asked if I was preparing for war. You ask the question, could I kill someone? The answer is yes. Would I feel bad about it? I don't think so. I hope I never have to find out.
Bud

[krispos42]

72. I did a poll about this a few days ago...

Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2903443

And you would probably find this article "Heroic Consequences" interesting as well...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x153308

It was printed in "Handguns" magazine, so I'm assuming the author is a gun nut that packs heat.

[aikoaiko]

74. Shooting someone in self-defense is a heavy burden, as you saw with your father and friend.

The posters you criticize are only trying to ease the burden of this homeowner with some social support for his actions. Perhaps your father and friend could have used more of that social support.

eta: on reflection, maybe thats not the only reason posters are calling it a good shoot, but it is why I would.