McCain...'war hero'?

[trof]

I'm reading the late Col. David Hackworth's "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts". It's a riveting account of how, in Viet Nam, he turned an infantry battalion of poorly led draftees, with one of the Army's worst casualty rates, into an efficient disciplined unit.

He had already decided that the war was total bullshit and saw it as his job to get as many guys back safely as he could.

Any way...Hack also tells about how medals, decorations, and citations were handed out by the bucketful, cheapening their original meaning and value.

And here's what he says about John McCain eight years ago:
"John McCain is being hailed by the press as a "genuine war hero." But is he a war hero in the conventional sense like Audie Murphy and John Glenn?

Or is his "war hero" status the creation of a very slick publicity campaign that plays on flag, duty, honor and country?

For sure, McCain has the fruitsalad a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars , two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service gongs.

On a purely medal count basis, he outweighs Murphy and Glenn, who both for years repeatedly performed extraordinary deeds on the ground or in the air against an armed enemy.

McCain's valor awards are based on what happened in 1967, when during his 23d mission over Vietnam, he was shot down, seriously injured, captured and then spent 5 1/2 brutal years as a POW.

In an attempt to find out exactly what the man did to earn these many hero awards, I asked his Senate office three times to provide copies of the narratives for each medal. I'm still waiting.

I next went to the Pentagon. Within a week, I received a recap of his medals and many of the narratives that give the details of what he did.

None of the awards, less the DFC, were for heroism over the battlefield where he spent no more than 20 hours. Two Naval officers described the awards as "boilerplate" and "part of an SOP medal package given to repatriated (Vietnamera) POWs."

McCain's Silver Star narrative for the period 27 October 1967 the day after he was shot down to 8 December 1968 reads: "His captors… subjected him to extreme mental and physical cruelties in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes. Through his resistance to those brutalities, he contributed significantly towards the eventual abandonment…" of such harsh treatment by the North Vietnamese.

Yet in McCain's own words just four days after being captured, he admits he violated the U.S. Code of Conduct by telling his captors "O.K, I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital."

A Vietnam vet detractor says, "He received the nation's third highest award, the Silver Star, for treason. He provided aid and comfort to the enemy!"

The rest of his valor awards issued automatically every year while he was a POW read much like the Silver Star. More boilerplate often repeating the exact same words. An example: "By his heroic endeavors, exceptional skill, and devotion to duty, he reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Naval Service and the United States Armed Forces."

Yet McCain's conduct while a POW negates these glowing comments. The facts are that he signed a confession and declared himself a "black criminal who performed deeds of an air pirate." This statement and other interviews he gave to the Communist press press were used as propaganda to fan the flames of the antiwar movement.

Accounts by McCain and other writers tell of the horror he endured: relentlessly beatings, torture, broken limbs. All inflicted during savage interrogations. Yet no other POW was a witness to these accounts.
A former POW says "No man witnessed another man during interrogations… We relied on each other to tell the truth when a man was returned to his cell."

The U.S. Navy says two eyewitnesses are required for any award of heroism. But for the valor awards McCain received, there are no eyewitnesses, less himself and his captors. And they're not talking.

Our POWs in Vietnam were treated appallingly. The Viets would either break a POW or kill him. POWs provided info beyond name, rank and serial number or they didn't come back.

Based on these stalwart men's horrific experiences, the Code of Conduct has been changed. A POW says, "Now the training is to give them something… don't risk permanent damage to health, mind or body."
McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs told me he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he "just followed orders."

McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card."

David H. Hackworth died in June 2005, he was a much-decorated and highly unconventional former career Army officer who became a combat legend in Vietnam. Col. Hackworth received 78 combat awards — including a Distinguished Service Cross, a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and eight Purple Hearts — during his 25-year military career which spanned the Korean and Vietnam wars..
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_hacker_2.htm

[Lex]

1. McCain to be "swift boated" ?

I don't like denigrating the service of McCain anymore than I did when it was Kerry. Maybe I'm naive.

[JDPriestly]

29. It's McCain's karma. Did he defend Kerry?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

43. Yes McCain did defend Kerry

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain told the Associated Press. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

[blm]

69. Shortly after he made that statement he told Kerry camp they COULDN'T use his words

in their ads refuting the swifts.

He also HIRED the swiftliars' ad makers last year.

[hendo]

88. So its not enough..

That the republicans swiftboated Kerry, now we have to try to swiftboat McCain? This is sick!

Swiftboating is a bad thing regardless of which side chooses to engage in it!

[roguevalley]

50. self edit

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

2. Mods, get this shit outta here.

[lazer47]

3. Mods Lock this thread!!!! Enough is enough

[Jim__]

4. Don't attack McCains's military record.

He was a POW for a number of years. He was tortured. He was offered the chance to go home early, and he turned it down because it was against the military's rules. What he did under torture may be subject to criticism from other people who withstood similar torture; but not by anyone else; the rest of us have no idea what he went through or what anyone's breaking point might be.

That said, I think McCain is easily attacked on his political record and his attitudes towards war with Iraq and Iran.

[JDPriestly]

30. I would agree with you, however, McCain did not vote for

the recent bill that would have prevented our torturing prisoners. McCain is two-faced on the issue of torture. He is GOP first and American second. McCain is not a true patriot. His medals were no more deserved than those of any other Viet Nam vet -- including Kerry.

McCain does not get a free ride on his claims of military heroism. The American people need to know all the truth about this man.

[JuniorPlankton]

5. Out with this crap!

:mad:

[flamin lib]

6. Whatever the validity of McCain's citations, this isn't a place we as

Democrats should go.

It is true that during Vietnam a lot of medals were handed out and at the time I recall career soldiers lamenting the fact that they were "popcorn" compared to previous conflicts.

Regardless, they were awarded and he has the legitimate right to wear them.

Swiftboating was wrong when it happened to Kerry and it's wrong to do it to McCain.

Never hate a man for what his is (Republican), get to know him first and find a real good reason.

[Spacemom]

7. I'm not going to judge someone

who spent 5 1/2 years as a POW. I don't care who did or did not witness his torture. Medals don't make up for what he went through.

That has nothing to do with why he'd make a horrible president.

This is just as sick as when it was done to Kerry.

[sharp_stick]

8. These swiftboat pricks

need to be stopped, I can't believe the shit they've been allowed to spew for this long. The guy that runs that site is an asshole extrodainaire and I will not click on any link to it or read anything from it.

Fuck him, and everyone that allows themselves to be associated with him.

[Tarc]

9. This is deceptive and dishonest. Mccain did not aid the enemy or commit treason

There are many, many LEGITIMATE things to criticize John McCain on as we head towards the general election. Repeating decades-old lies and twisted half-truths is not the way to go.

[TBUSA]

11. Col. David Hackworth had earned the right.

Col. Hackworth earned the right to illuminate the charactor of a fellow veteran. He always spoke as a Patriot first.
Why do you say the Col is lying ( i.e. spreading untruths).

Col. David Hackworth was a patriot of great integrity. Don't listen if you do not want to hear, but the Col earned the right to express the truth. What part of his revelations do you knoew as being untruthfull?

[lazer47]

15. You do not """earn""" the right to swift boat anyone

[Winterblues]

24. Swiftboating is lieing about one's record

This truth has been out there since the seventies and laws were changed because of how information was given to the North Vietnamese. While it was considered justifiable it doesn't mean it didn't happen. No one denies it took place. Not even McCain..

[polmaven]

52. It may even be LYING

about one's record!

[Winterblues]

54. My spelling is atrocious even with spell check

:shrug:

[Tarc]

23. Hackworth is a political hack, just like Corsi and the swiftboaters were to Kerry

So please, go take your :tinfoilhat: bullshit to the dailykos or somewhere equally gullible that'll eat it up without thinking.

[trof]

63. Hackworth is the political hack who had his boots on the ground

in Viet Nam for a long time.
Out in the jungles and the delta.
Getting his ass shot at on an hourly basis.
While doing one of the most monumental jobs in military history of turning a truly fucked up, poorly led battalion of dissatisfied scared draftees into the proverbial lean, mean, DISCIPLINED fighting machine.
Even to personally leading, on the ground, a rescue mission to one of his platoons who had gotten into some deep shit.
At night, in the jungle, while the VC is blazing away.
Many of those kids came home alive, not in body bags, purely because of him and the training, discipline, and pride he gave them.
And they'll still tell you that.

I never heard of any political aspirations on Hack's part.
So to call him a political hack is just plain bullshit.

When you've been there, done that, then talk to me about it.

[karynnj]

51. NO HE DOESN'T

The same thing was said of the jerks who lied about Kerry. The military opted to give those medals and from everything I read of McCain he never claimed anything that was not true.

[kiva]

10. Just. Stop.

And who recommended this #$&$!*%^$?

[asdjrocky]

12. Wow, all you have to do-

Is read the comments that came after the OP here, and you'll know why Democrats are ten times better than the repuglikins!

It makes me proud to see the way my fellow Duers responded here.

[tjwash]

13. Lets not do this OK?

Attacking a mans military record is what low life assholes like Karl Rove and George Bush do.

As reprehensible and awful a human being that a person like Duke Cunningham for example was, I will never EVER demean or swift boat him like some would take great pleasure in.

Otherwise we are just a bunch of repub assholes wearing purple heart bandages at the convention.

[TBUSA]

16. Swiftboating is lying.

The difference between something like a KarlrOve and a Patriot like the Col is
truth.

We should be aware of a Presidential candidates character. If a scumbag like rOve lies about someones character thats despicable, but if a truth teller like the Col reveals something about a fellow veterans I character that's something to be considered.

Please do not put Col David Hack worth in the same category as a traitor.

[tjwash]

21. I'll put him in any fucking category I want to.

I don't give a fuck if the guy stormed the beach at Normandy and single handedly ended world war 2. Anyone that has actually served knows that you don't attack a mans military record and spin it to make them look bad. Otherwise you are no b tter than the lying sacks of shit that swift boated John Kerry, or this bitch:



I don't give one flying rats ass about how much credibility you think this guy has. If you want to act like a neo-con asshole and go down the character assassination and cheap personal shots road...fine. Just join the right fucking party for it, but get that shit out of here.

[TBUSA]

39. Swift boating is lying. Charactor assination is not lying when their are facts.

I am a proud Democrat and a Patriot. When a true Patriot like Col. Hackworth is
impuned by being equated with lyers I will stand in his defense.

Please try and understand how lyers, like the neo-cons, muddy the waters.

What was done to Sen. John Kerry was lying, deception and fraudulent (I.E. swiftboating). The official record of McNuts shows lying ,deception and fraudulent behavior. If that does not present a problem for you, you should look to a party with thinking more in line with yours (I.E. Republican-assholes).

[sepulveda]

45. bull

"The official record of McNuts shows lying ,deception and fraudulent behavior"

not in regards to his MILITARY RECORD which is what is being slagged here.

mccain served honorably, and deserves credit for it.

it's swiftboating to do it to mccain. it was wrong with kerry, and it's wrong now.

dont' conflat mccain the politician with mccain the military man.

his record in the military was honorable.

and i don't see anything in hackworths screed to negate that

[Winterblues]

46. Here is a letter recorded in Congress sent to Bush* and others about McCain

From a fellow Republican no less.
WHY WAS MCCAIN NOT PROSECUTED FOR HIS CRIMES??

To:
President George Bush
Sen. Bill Nelson
Sen. Mel Martinez
Rep. Timothy Mahoney

February 25, 2008

MORAL OBLIGATIONS TO STOP McCAIN

Patrick Briley
February 19, 2008
NewsWithViews.com

The U.S. has had Presidential candidates and Presidents who were known criminals, prevaricators and very immoral, promiscuous men who harmed national security. John McCain is no exception. However, does the public and do Republican delegates and leaders really want to pay the same costs in the future of America for McCain that they paid in the past for nominating and helping elect illicit Presidents?

The information about McCain in this article has been made available to Duncan Hunter, former Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, via the appropriate members of his Congressional staff and his national campaign director, all of who know me. Since withdrawing as a Republican Presidential nominee candidate on January 23, 2008, Duncan Hunter has campaigned for Presidential nominee candidate Mike Huckabee and has had, and continues to have, an opportunity to communicate this information about McCain to his fellow Baptist, Mike Huckabee.

Duncan Hunter, as a Republican leader and a Christian, has a moral obligation, responsibility and civic duty, and as an act of conscience to ask Mike Huckabee to publicly ask his delegates not to vote to nominate McCain and to publicly tell them why.
The Republican delegates and Party must be told by Huckabee and/or Hunter what they know about McCain and why Republicans need to nominate someone else besides McCain as the Republican Presidential candidate. God WILL HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE AND IN JUDGMENT if they do not tell the public and the delegates this in an effort to save America, lives and souls.
If Hunter and/or Huckabee are not willing as Christian, Baptist leaders to take the risk of paying a political price for telling the truth about McCain and standing for Godly Christian values and principles when they know to do so, they risk losing their souls, having their consciences seared, and having the "Son of man being ashamed of them" when he returns.

The article, "Influence peddling claims dog McCain, describes McCain's criminal corruption while on the Senate Commerce Committee for which McCain should have been removed from office and prosecuted. During the time this was going on, McCain was receiving large contributions to his Reform Institute from socialists George Soros and Teresa Kerry:

"In 1999, McCain refused to recuse himself when the Commerce Committee gave legislative oversight approval for mergers then before the Federal Communications Commission involving two communications companies that were Davis, Manafort & Freeman lobbying clients - COMSTAT Corp., a government-owned satellite company, and SBC communications, a Baby Bell phone company.

"But in between the two separate $100,000 contributions Cablevision made to the Reform Institute, McCain, then chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, wrote a letter to the Federal Communications Commission supporting Cablevision's desire to continue packaging customer TV programming in a manner more profitable to Cablevision."

"In 2005, after the Associated Press exposed McCain's apparent conflict of interest in the Cablevision case, McCain resigned as Reform Institute chair."

But another offense for which McCain should be in prison is the fact McCain helped criminally loot the S&Ls of 100's of billions of dollars for himself and 4 other U.S. Senators (Charles Keating 5) as well as his buddy, former US Senator Jake Garn, who knowingly legalized the looting with the Garn-St.Germain law. McCain should be in prison today for this and the public should be reminded of it. McCain in effect has solicited bribes to wield his influence in these scandals.

"Many of the officials involved are apparently the same neoconservatives who cooked the books to enable the rush to war against Iraq and who are continuing to urge more wars in the Middle East, most notably against Iran and Syria. Several of them are close allies of leading Republican presidential candidate JOHN MCCAIN."

On February 18, 2008, The Dallas Morning News publicly called for a formal and full blown investigation of the matter:

McCain and former Senator Jake Garn also directly conspired against American MIA/POWs (in North Korean, China, Russia, Laos, North Vietnam) and their families from 1988 to 1992. McCain intentionally used his position as a Senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee to stymie investigations and to block information going to the public about known POWs that were intentionally but falsely listed as MIAs to hide what was known about them and to avoid accountability for not trying to recover them.

I have first hand witnesses who know of McCain (via WSJ author and world renowned POW/MIA expert Bill Paul) conspiring with Senator Garn to conceal information about known POWs while McCain was at DIA, then in the House and then as Senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee (while still covering up for DIA as a Senator according to Bill Paul), and the Senate Subcommittee POW Hearings by Kerry and McCain in 1992. During testimony before the Kerry subcommittee about American POWs left behind in North Korea, McCain walked out of the hearings but not before demeaning, castigating the expert witnesses.

NSA officers responsible for handling intercepted and other intelligence traffic in SE Asia (Laos, North Vietnam, Cambodia, etc) during the time of McCain's captivity are in the process of preparing to reveal what they know of McCain's confessions and his radio broadcasts from North Viet Nam condemning the US and his collaborating with the North Vietnamese and Cubans to the detriment of fellow POW members. Another intelligence officer, Jack McLamb, has recently already made similar assertions known publicly. You can now read a declassified transcript of McCain's Confession Speech to the North Vietnamese Broadcast by Radio & Praising them for His Treatment.

A former NSA officer says "he does not know of ANY people in US intelligence that he knows (he knows many) that do not believe McCain collaborated with the North Vietnamese and was not a TRAITOR to the U.S." This is a quote that I was asked to write down.

There is very strong suspicion McCain tried to hide POW information from the public and POW/MIA families because McCain did not want to draw attention to his collaboration with the North Vietnamese and the betrayals of some fellow POWS and MIAs.

McCain molested a MIA's wife (that many POW/MIA families know personally) in the mid 1980s while McCain's second wife, Cindy, was giving birth to one of their children. McCain has publicly admitted to having extra martial affairs during his first marriage. John McCain's biographer Robert Timberg has listed and documented McCain's sexual affairs with his military subordinates when he was an Executive Officer and as a Squadron Commander.

McCain's claims of wanting to nominate "conservative" Supreme Court judges ring hollow when one considers the fact that McCain worked closely with Democrats (the "Gang of 14") to block confirming conservative, strict constructionist judges.

John McCain co-sponsored a bill with Ted Kennedy to given amnesty to illegal aliens. McCain has never spoken out against the intentional non-enforcement of illegal immigration laws, a violation of the law in itself. In fact he voted to send social security monies to illegal aliens. McCain's Hispanic Outreach Director, Juan Hernandez, is well known for his "Mexico First" declarations.

McCain co-authored the McCain/Feingold campaign finance bill that was ruled to be an UNCONSTITUTIONAL infringement of the First Amendment.

A man like John McCain who publicly praises Islam and publicly says he could vote for a Muslim US President, would help arm Muslim terrorists and take their campaign dollars because he already has.

John McCain helped armed Kosovo Islamic terrorists. In gratitude the Albanians collected one million dollars for the McCain's presidential campaign.

McCain also backed Bosnian Muslim terrorists and the Clinton plan to use the CIA, AlAaeda, AlQaeda leader Dr Ayman Zawahiri, and Iran to train them and later bring some of them to the US and Salt Lake City.

John McCain has betrayed his two wives, POWs and MIAs, the US Constitution, his fellow Republicans. He has committed crimes that amount to felonious kickbacks and bribes for which he should be in prison. If former CIA officer Phillip Giraldi's assertions are true, then McCain may also have engaged in another felony, treason, for criminally helping proliferate US nuclear technology to Islamic nations.

If McCain had been prosecuted and convicted for any of his felonious crimes, McCain would not be eligible to be President.

McCain's statements and actions have also aided and abetted enemies of the United States, Islamic terrorists and illegal immigrants (some affiliated with Islamic terrorists and Communist Chinese) inside the US.

McCain is a preeminent and immediate threat to the national security and sovereignty of the Untied States.


Wellington , FL

[14thColony]

62. As stated in the OP

no other American POWs were present when the interrogations happened, so how could "a truth teller like the Col reveal something" that he could never have possibly witnessed? Or experienced for that matter, having never been taken prisoner by the NVA? Don't get me wrong, I liked Hackworth, but that doesn't mean everything he ever said was right. Even the best of people are wrong.

And watch that 'traitor' crap - give me an hour with a pair of pliers and a blow-torch and I'll have you confessing that you crucified Jesus Christ and killed Jimmy Hoffa all in the same afternoon.

McCain did the best he could in horrible circumstances. I doubt you or I would do so well. Even today in the military we are taught to try to get as much out of our captors as possible in the way of aid while giving up as little as possible in return. I get to see a doctor for my broken leg if I tell you the name of my aircraft carrier? No problem. I get valuable medical aid and you get a useless piece of information in the process. Case in point: a pilot from Gulf War I who was interrogated by Iraqi intelligence on pointless junk like how fast his plane was and how high it could fly. Who gives a crap? Useless info and a sign of amateur interrogators. He gave them all the answers they wanted and got to see a doctor. This is considered a current case study in how to manipulate your captors to get what you need. So by your standards all of us in the military are taught to be traitors as a matter of doctrine.

[TooBigaTent]

14. trof - everyone who is attacking you for this thread is forgetting the reality

of politics in this kill-or-be-killed world that the pukes have created.

By taking criticism of McCain "off the table" we are disarming ourselves. The same goes for going after his wife and their whole, sordid history. Everything is a valid target for criticism. He is a hero because he got a plane shot out from under him. At least he did not bail out on a crew ala Bush, Sr.

The republics are going to pull out every tactic and if we fight with one (or both) hands tied behind our back, neither BO nor HC will get within spitting distance of the WH.

[trof]

70. Thanks. That's not the way I meant it, but thanks. eom

[Vickers]

17. Things will seriously backfire if this is pursued.

Questioning George's (non) service was OK, but on the whole I think McCain's service was honorable.

Swiftboating ain't cool when *either* side does it.

[treestar]

57. Did it backfire on the repukes when they did it to Kerry?

But a better way to handle it is - "war hero" is not a qualification for the Presidency.

Even worse, McBush would continue the Iraq debacle until it is "won." That's what should kill his chances.

[blondeatlast]

18. As much as I have depised my senior Senator for years, I won't stand in judgment

of him as a POW. I can't possibly know what he went through. IMHO, he served honorably in Viet Nam but let his country down as a Senator--his voting record on Veteranns in the Senate and House are enough to damn him. We don't need to go there and I'll refuse.

Rumors like these are old around Arizona and given little credence. Please; we have morals and ethics to fight him with; we don't need to go this sorry, cowardly route.

[TBUSA]

20. I will not stand for anyone implying that the late

Col. David Hackworth was telling lies.

You are about to vote for the next leader of this great Country. You should know the truth about your choice.

Whoever would equate Hack's integrity with the traitorist machinations of swiftboaters is missing the point.

[blondeatlast]

22. Hackworth may be right, but we DON'T need to go there. These rumors have been whispered

about here in AZ for decades and there may be a grain of truth in them.

But good God, I can't imagine the hell of the Hanoi Hilton and refuse to sit in judgment of any of it's guests.

His voting record on military and veterans issues speaks far more about his real agenda than this ever could.

I've never voted for him and have very actively campaigned against him for almost 20 years and sure as hell won't be voting for him now, but we don't need to go here.

Do as you wish, but I can't go there.

[JDPriestly]

31. The question is not whether the Hanoi Hilton was inhospitable

The question is whether McCain is using his claim to heroism to protect him from a realistic look at his military record while Kerry was assaulted -- brutally assaulted as to his reputation on this issue.

I also have a big problem with the fact that McCain claims to have been tortured in Viet Nam (a claim that I believe) but then failed to vote to ban waterboarding recently. That shows that whatever he claims to have been in the past, he is no hero today. He is a coward today. That is what matters. What he is today, how he cow-tows to the Bush right-wing of the Republican party is what is wrong. If his claims of heroism prove to be exaggerated, so be it. If they turn out to be true, so be it. If people can accuse Obama of being Muslim when his religion is clearly Christian, certainly we can question McCain's claims about heroism.

Getting shot down is not an act of valor. Enduring in silence through torture certainly is an act of valor. John McCain needs to discuss publicly just what happened in Viet Nam. And then he needs to face inquiry into whether his account of those events is true. It is part of our process.

[Vickers]

27. "I will not stand for"

:rofl:

Let me know how that righteous indignation works out for ya, mmm-kay?

[TBUSA]

40. Standing in defense of a true American hero works well for me.

How about you?

[Vickers]

49. Wow, your eBravery is commendable!

:thumbsup:

You must've learned that under Col. Hackworth's command.

[14thColony]

65. I suggest

you challenge him to a duel to protect Colonel Hackworth's impugned honor. Pistols at 20 paces!

[L0oniX]

19. They call NASCAR drivers hero's too. Hero doesn't mean much these days.

[hughee99]

25. Yes, our party should just float that turd out there in the GE

I'm sure it will really hurt the McCain campaign and make the Democratic candidate look good. :sarcasm:

Look, McCain may not have earned all his medals in the official, military approved way, but there's no political advantage to be gained by making an issue of it. The guy spent 5 1/2 years as a POW, there's no amount of irregular paperwork regarding his commendations that's going to tip the public against him in regards to this. Talking about it will only serve to make the accusers look petty, and to keep reminding everyone about his military service.

[blondeatlast]

26. Exactly--this will backfire badly even if done by surrogates. We should run, not walk away from this

And after nearly 20 years of representing me, no one, but no one, wants to see the end of Bush III's political career more than I do--but not like this.

[nashville_brook]

59. are we taking ourselves a little too seriously here?

the OP is a vet himself who has read this material and came to GD under the impression that he could discuss this here.

a post in GD does not party strategy make.

[blondeatlast]

66. I don't mind discussing it HERE, but some (not the OP) are advocating

us taking this into the public arena. That's 100 miles of bad road--I'm an Arizonan who Mccain has (puke) represented his entire career. I've known about this stuff since he first ran for Congress.

It won't do us any good as a campaign strategy--but I have no problem having it discussed here. Subtle dirfference, but it's there...

[EndElectoral]

28. McCain's a war hero, so was Kerry......I prefer a peace hero.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. So do I.

[karynnj]

48. Kerry was also a "peace hero" - given 1971 and the 1980s anti-Contra fight.

[Drifter]

32. McCain is a war hero ...

Nothing will change that.

McCain is also about as corrupt a politician as you can get ... and nothing is going to change that either.

The only swiftboating he deserves is based on his corruption as a politician, and he should go to jail for it.

Cheers
Drifter

[Catchawave]

34. Sounds like antiwardotcom bullsh*t

WE are better than this.

[Forrest Greene]

83. Is There Something Wrong

...with being against war?

[mulsh]

35. " You aren't supposed to get captured"

Two of my great uncles survived the Bataan death march. One of them, Mike, died last year. That's what he had to say about McCain being a "war hero".

[TBUSA]

41. Wise Uncle. BTW ,Was circling the enemy , low enough to be shot down with

down with small arms fire, in the mission statement? Did he ever say why he was circling that low over a target they had just bombed? Maybe his mission statement
assigned him the task of verifying damage? Anyone read one of his books where he explains this ?

[treestar]

58. This is exactly what the repukes would have said had Kerry or any

other Democratic candidate been a prisoner of war.

And how can anyone be a hero in a war that was "lost?" That's exactly how they would put it.

Their entitled attitude towards a double standard for them is all they do in reaction to taking the "high road."

They'll get the full benefit as Kerry should have. They don't seem to suffer for being so low, then why would the Democrats?

[Forrest Greene]

36. Hey, Hey, John McCain

How many children did you kill & maim?

In my book, John McCain rates as an incompetent fighter pilot. He got shot down. His assignment was to return safely, so all that training & taxpayer-bought aircraft could be reused. He failed.

How incompetence as a fighter pilot qualifies a person as President of the United States, that I don't know.

Don't care, either.

[Thothmes]

79. Need more research for your book

McCain flew A-4 sky hawks. there are attack aircraft, not fighters. He was not a fighter pilot. His assignment was to attack facilities in North Viet Nam. Get there and drop your ordnance first. Everything after that is of secondary consideration to the mission planners.

[Forrest Greene]

85. Pardon Me

That was a layperson's unfamiliarity with the specific jargon of a particular profession.

Doesn't alter my point any, though.

[Thothmes]

87. Yes it does

His assignment was to attack targets in North Viet Nam. That was his mission when he was shot down by NV anti-aircraft forces. Mission always comes first, getting home alive with your aircraft comes second. That is a brutal way of looking at things, but that is exactly how Officers of the the U.S. Navy view their responsibilities.

[DainBramaged]

37. Every captured Vet should be considered a hero if Gramps is

A hero does heroic deeds.


Don't they?

[smiley_glad_hands]

38. I dont think swiftboating him is going to get anywhere.

And I'm pretty sure Obama is not going to go there either.

[Lerkfish]

42. I would fault no one for caving under torture

which is why we have no business whatsoever torturing others.

[Chovexani]

44. This is absolutely disgusting

As a child of veterans I think this is appalling. There are plenty of legit things to attack McCain on. I can't stand the man personally and hate that he is my senator but trying to swiftboat the man is beyond the pale. He was tortured for fuck's sake.

This is no better than that purple bandaid shit the Repukes pulled at their last convention. Simply disgusting.

[NoPasaran]

47. Mods, please get this out of here

We're better than this.

[cornermouse]

53. Fascinating.

There's as much or more support here for McCain (republican remember?) as there was for Hillary (democrat remember?)

Hello?

[nashville_brook]

55. i don't see this as a "swiftboat attack" -- i'm interested in McCain's war bio, period.

as Bush has made torture an issue in an administration McCain would inherit (if elected) i think it's incredibly important that we have an honest discussion of McCain's torture experience AND his reaction to it as a prisoner and as a president.

i can completely understand why vets and patriots would get prickly about a discussion of any POW's valor, but you can't go completely to the dark side and shut down all questioning of McCain's war record. It's crucial to understanding and answering McCain's foreign policy tendencies to pretend that his record doesn't exist, or that it's beyond reproach let alone examination.

Use this thread as an opportunity to hone the arguments. Honestly examine the narrative. We need to be able to have this discussion -- it would irresponsible to go into the GE without being prepared for it.

at the very least, cut trof some slack. he's just asking questions based on secondary sources he found interesting. lets have a discussion -- not a riot.

[ecstatic]

56. I won't question his service, but I'm not going to cry if others do it

They did it to Kerry. It was despicable but each case is different. The attacks on Kerry were based on lies, but that doesn't mean that the attacks on McCain are lies. Besides, karma's a bitch. We've suffered under republicans long enough. And frankly, I don't care if there's a stench in the air as long as it's one of us being inaugurated January 2009.

[TheDoorbellRang]

60. This is NOT where we need to go

:thumbsdown:

[orleans]

61. mccain....psycho. n/t

[VOX]

64. He can't even get his arms up over his head, for God's sake...

He broke both arms and a leg after ejecting from his jet when it was shot down. As a POW, he also suffered fractures to both shoulders, broken ribs and received a knee injury from being tortured during his 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war.

As low-down as Kerry's swiftboating by right-wingers was, seeking a some sort of reciprocity on this issue will not be well received.

McCain is a royal pain in the ass, and his politcs make me crazy, but I have no argument about McCain being portrayed as a genuine war hero, if only on the basis of his raw courage and endurance.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

67. Kicked and Recommended...

[GoneOffShore]

68. To those here who are dumping on the OP

I would ask if they have really read Wilfred Owen's poem? And actually understand what it means.

DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

8 October 1917 - March, 1918

[ruiner4u]

71. World War 1 and the Vietnam conflict are not comparable.

Yes, horrible and atrocious chemical warfare happened for the first time <which led to multinational treaties and conventions to abandon such evil weapons>, yet there was a sense of 'old Europe' warfare.

Your comparison to Vietnam is completely erroneous and if you are smart enough to post a poem like that you should know that the comparison you are making is complete and utter bullshit.

POW's in WW1 were treated like crap, but they did get bread, water, and did not have things shoved under their finger nails.

What happened in the trenches with mustard gas was evil beyond belief, and following the war the great nations of the time pledged to never use them again.

What happened to the POW's of Vietnam was evil that had been outlawed by the civilized world. And at that point NV was not civilized. They were barbaric to our POWS and deserve NO defense.

As to dumping on the OP, this has nothing to do with the mans candidacy and everything to do with someone with posting power trying to 'One-up' the republicans.. Its just as sick as the swift boaters..

To the OP and anyone defending his crap, spend 5 1/2 in an UNCIVILIZED nations POW camp and see how liberal you feel.


Yet another sickining moment on DU..

[Forrest Greene]

73. I Disagree

World War I & the Vietnam War, despite many obvious differences in causes, courses, and techniques, have a great many features in common, particularly the pointless, degrading, spectacular loss of life, the lack of any real reason for the war beyond a certain restless boredom among heads of state & the needs of their economies, & the chief results of both wars: a decisive end to a long era of trust in government & of denial as to its methods, not to mention in both cases the toppling of the government of the war's chief aggressor.

I could go on, but instead, I would like to point out that the person whose debating tools include statements such as "the comparison you are making is complete and utter bullshit" has fully failed in his or her presumed effort to make a worthwhile point in a credible voice.

[ruiner4u]

74. Typical...

You dont address anything I say, throw in a few vague statements, and then bring up a quote to try and make yourself look supieror...


Ahhhhh, the DU trifecta...

[Forrest Greene]

76. Effortless Refutation Follows

Ruiner: "You dont address anything I say,"

Ruiner: "World War 1 and the Vietnam conflict are not comparable."

Forrest: "World War I & the Vietnam War, despite many obvious differences in causes, courses, and techniques, have a great many features in common." Followed by representative comparisons.

Do you have anything worth reading in response to my actual points?

I'll leave my refutation at that, with questions: Do you know what an "ad hominem argument" is? Do you find its use gains you much respect?

I got a good laugh at your post & could use another, so I'll probably check back, but I don't think I'll bother responding. You can just imagine me there.

Ruiner, your cornball moniker gives the impression that you will equate my future non-response with you being the "winner" of a "fight." That would be incorrect. In fact, I will be avoiding you for precisely the same reason I will avoid the leavings of dogs in the street: not because I fear them, but simply because I don't want to bother scraping them off my shoe.

My posting of Jarrell's poem was in response to GoneOffShore's offering Wilfred Owen, not to your post. Believe me, I wouldn't dream of trying to impress you.

Oh, the correct spellings of those words are "don't" (including the apostrophe,) & "superior."

Keep on tryin', though! Bye, now!

[GoneOffShore]

78. You did notice the crickets after you posted that didn't you?

[Forrest Greene]

80. Sorry, I Can't Hear You

Could you type a little more loudlierly?

[GoneOffShore]

75. You sure about that?

"POW's in WW1 were treated like crap, but they did get bread, water, and did not have things shoved under their finger nails."
We were doing the Water Cure in the Philippines just a few years earlier, and that got swept under the carpet.
War is war.

And soldiering is a job - you do it or you don't.

I don't believe in the mystique of the warrior - it's a myth, as Owen's so ably illustrated. I'm sure that upsets a lot of people but I'm a cranky old hippie who resisted during Vietnam.

You don't like it, put me on ignore.

[Forrest Greene]

72. That Poem May Be Too Long To Hold Some People's Attention

Translating the Latin would help a bit, too. May I suggest, in addition:


The Death Of The Ball Turret Gunner

From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from the dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.


-- Randall Jarrell

[GoneOffShore]

77. A very moving poem -

Here's a translation for those interested

"DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country."

[NNN0LHI]

81. Let Joe Scarborough explain what he meant when he said that torture had in fact "worked" on McCain?

He holds himself out as an expert on this stuff. Lets ask him for the record.

Don

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Scarborough_90_of_Americans_would_approve_1019.html (Video at link)

Scarborough: '90% of Americans' would approve waterboarding

MSNBC host Joe Scarborough says that the controversial interrogation tactic known as waterboarding -- a method of simulated drowning used by interrogators to extract information from subjects -- is an effective practice that most Americans would overwhelmingly approve of if asked.

In a discussion about US Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey's refusal to rule out waterboarding as a method of gathering intelligence during confirmation hearings this week, Scarborough said the technique had achieved proven results.

"For those who don't know, waterboarding is what we did to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who is the Al Qaeda number two guy that planned 9/11. And he talked," said Scarborough. "A lot of people say torture doesn't work, torture doesn't work. And I'm not here saying that we need to torture. I'm just saying, for the record it is a matter of historical record, that when we water boarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he started talking, and he kept talking."

"If you ask Americans whether they think it's okay for us to waterboard in a controlled environment," the host said later, "the New York Times editorial board will not like the results of those polls because 90% of Americans will say 'yes.'"

Asked later if he thought waterboarding qualified as torture, Scarborough wasn't so sure.

"You know, that's the debate. Is waterboarding torture?" he asked. "I don't want the United States to engage in the type of torture that John McCain had to endure."

Scarborough said that even though McCain was a staunch opponent of torture, he pointed out that that torture had in fact "worked" on the senator.

[Pavulon]

82. Bad Idea

hackworth was no model of perfection. He was also political.

This is a loosing debate. EVEN IF what you say is all fact the public will not see the point attempted here. They will see a sloppy hack.

[tritsofme]

84. Attacks like this probably only help McCain.

McCain has been a national figure for many years, and the general public has recognized his war hero status for the entire time he has been in the public light.

Kerry was more of an unknown quantity to a national audience, and was able to be defined by the opposition better.

If these attacks are made against McCain, it would only serve to engender sympathy for McCain, especially among moderates, and help his campaign.

[Thepricebreaker]

86. Don't go down this road with McCain you will get steam rolled in the general. n/t

[npincus]

89. This is a loser....

needs to be dropped like a flaming potato.