United Church of Christ being investigated by the IRS

[ladym55]

I just received an email from the United Church of Christ that they are being investigated by the IRS and the denomination's tax-exempt status is being threatened BECAUSE CHURCH MEMBER BARACK OBAMA SPOKE AT THE DENOMINATION'S 50TH GENERAL SYNOD MEETING.

Now I realize that we are all hot and bothered by the primaries right now, but this ISN'T about Obama. It's about a progressive denomination being intimidated by the federal government.

The Internal Revenue Service has notified the United Church of Christ's national offices in Cleveland, Ohio, that the IRS has opened an investigation into U.S. Sen. Barack Obama's address at the UCC's 2007 General Synod as the church engaging in "political activities."

In the IRS letter dated Feb. 20, the IRS said it was initiating a church tax inquiry "because reasonable belief exists that the United Church of Christ has engaged in political activities that could jeopardize its tax-exempt status."

This is chilling. Today John Haggee endorses McCain, and James Dobson and Pat Robertson regularly insert themselves into the political process with any consequences. HOWEVER, if progressive denomination has a member speak (who is a political candidate), they are in danger of losing tax-exempt status. What about ALL the churches that have hosted Huckabee in his campaign? Are THEY being investigated?

Now the denomination is forced to start a defense fund.

To read more about it, check out this link from the UCC website:
www.ucc.org/news/obama-speech-in-2007-prompts-1.html

[babylonsister]

1. ladym55, can you post this in GD/Primaries also? Thanks! nt

[leftofcool]

2. Which churches have hosted Huckabee?

I would be interested in reporting this if you have knowledge of it. He does make his living doing speaking engagements around the planet and has been for a long time but this is the first I have heard of him speaking in an actual church since his presidential bid. Can you list these?

Left of Cool

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

5. Having someone speak at a synod meeting is *far* different

Than an individual member of the denomination allowing a politician to speak at the pulpit..

Weve seen politicans on both sides speak at churches but not at the national convention for that church..

[leftofcool]

9. A Synod Meeting means nothing to IRS

The poster siinsinuated Huckabee was speaking at churches and this should be investigated. But I need a list.

Left of Cool

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

14. It shurly does

An annual national synod meeting is where churches at the national level set policy make theological decisions for the denomination, and set other massive priorities. Having someone running for president here threatens to poison both wells (church and state)...

For years on the left and right politicians have spoken at churches Bill Clinton often spoke at churches

And men of the cloth have been active in politics (Reverend Jessie Jackson, Pat Robertson, ...)

[leftofcool]

16. Make a list then

of all the church like places where you know for sure that Huckabee has campaigned from the pulpit and not preached so I can turn him in to the organization I belong to. All I need is a list but I also need to know for sure that he was actually campaigning. Videos or links to videos would also be great as that is more proof.

Left of Cool

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. You did not read my post

Campaigning in a church is one thing (The Democrats and Republicans have been doing it for years)

A national convention of an entire denomination is completely different..

[leftofcool]

25. Okay which synod/religious convention

I would still need the name of the synod or was it the Southern Baptist Convention before I could turn him in for campaigning illegally.

Left of cool

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. The SBC national convention meets in June

By then I suspect Huck will be out by that meeting...

[ladym55]

11. He is a 20-year member of the church

And he was asked to talk about his faith journey. My concern is that the right crosses the line regularly.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

15. Not at national conventions where

Theological lines are drawn, funding and mission lines are drawn, and many other aspects of church practice are set..

[Critters2]

24. Actually, not many aspects of UCC practice are set at Synod.

Synod cannot set policy that is binding on judicatories or local congregations. No covenanted ministry of the UCC can tell another what to do about anything. Synod passes resolutions, but they are not binding on any other body. It's more like a big family reunion!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. Sorry but youre wrong

"ATLANTA — The United Church of Christ's rule-making body voted overwhelmingly yesterday to endorse same-sex marriage, making it the largest Christian denomination to do so.

The vote is not binding on individual churches, but could cause some congregations to leave the fold.

Roughly 80 percent of the representatives on the church's 884-member General Synod voted to approve the resolution yesterday, a day after a smaller committee recommended it."

When teh Synod meets big decisions about church doctrine are made..

[Critters2]

31. This is not church doctrine. It was a resolution of GS and nothing else.

Completely NOT binding on local congregations or judicatories. Indeed, your quote says "the vote is not binding on individual churches..." The article is mistaken in referring to GS as "the United Church of Christ's rule-making body". It simply isn't. Only local congregations set rules binding on local congregations.

I teach a UCC polity course. I know whereof I speak.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. Yes, not a "top-down" church at all

So no church-wide decisions would be taken.

Seems to me RW candidates regularly speak at meetings of RW Christians, and I haven't heard of them being targeted like this.

[BrotherBuzz]

30. But the Baptists get a free ride? Methodists, too?

In January of this year, both Obama and Sen. Hillary Clinton spoke separately to the national gathering of the National Baptist Convention of America. In April 1996, when her husband, Bill Clinton, was seeking re-election, then-First Lady Hillary Clinton, who is United Methodist, spoke before her denomination's quadrennial General Conference.

[ladym55]

8. I don't have specifics on that

I do remember seeing him on one of the news shows in the last few months and it being reported that he was in the pulpit at a Southern Baptist church. I'll do some checking and see what I can find out.

[leftofcool]

12. Don't forget that he is a preacher

He need only report to IRS that his minister status has naught to do with campaigning. Legally, he has done nothing wrong as long as he is preaching from the pulpit and not campaigning.

Left of Cool

[ladym55]

18. Well, it got covered on the news

It was treated as part of Huckabee's campaign. I remember it because what he SAID during his sermon was political and kind of scary to me. Unfortunately, I'm old enough to have a menopausal memory so can't immediately grab the details for you here.

[Critters2]

20. Exactly. Thank you. nt

[ladym55]

36. I've been touring the Huckabee website

I can't find church appearances in the media section. Rats. However, I found a LONG list of various conservative church leaders (including pastors) endorsing Huckabee.

[MadMaddie]

3. And so it begins....only Republican religous organizations can

participate in the political process and all others are prosecuted.

Sounds like the person at the IRS that made the decision should be investigated.

[muntrv]

4. Don't forget Jerry Falwell. He was always hangin' around republicker presidents.

[leftofcool]

6. But

did any of them ever speak in his church? And that is the issue with IRS. eeeeeeeeek! Asswell is someone I do not miss!

Left of Cool

[spanone]

7. pat robertson ran for president for chrissakes

[Critters2]

19. He can run for president. So could I, if I wanted.

This is a function of a private citizen. But one cannot, in one's role as pastor representing a church, endorse a candidate or party. And churches can never do so.

[salin]

10. and the investigation into the Southern Baptist Convetion has also been started?

Opps- of course there was never such an investigation...

[leftofcool]

13. This is still ongoing I believe n/t

[Critters2]

17. I do think it was handled badly. His campaign workers were at GS,

taking donations and volunteer contact info. It was clear that his campaign saw this as a campaign event. That should not have happened. He should've kept them FAR away from the site. The speech itself was pretty apolitical, except for his promising universal healthcare, but the campaign presence is troubling.

Yes, conservatives do similar things. They shouldn't. Neither should we.

I was troubled by it at the time, and I'm troubled now. Especially since local UCC churches have 501c3 status because they're part of the national church, and not as local congregations. If National screwed this up and costs local churches our status, there will be hell to pay. They should've handled this better.

You're also, right, though, that Hagee and Robertson should not be endorsing candidates. Indeed, it's illegal for them to do so. Their churches should come under investigation as well.

[leftofcool]

23. Can't they endorse a candidate

as long as it isn't done from the pulpit? IRS is a bit vague on this part.

Left of Cool

[Critters2]

26. A church or other 501c3 as a corporate body cannot endorse a candidate or party.

This is really clear. The 501c3 corporation can't endorse a candidate or party.

[leftofcool]

29. That part is clear b

"The 501c3 corporation can't endorse a candidate or party." But the individual can which is how many of them get around the IRS.

Left of Cool

[Critters2]

33. The individual can't do so in his or her capacity as clergy

or an officer of the corporation. I live in a parsonage and won't even put yard signs in my yard, for fear of violating this rule.

[NMMNG]

22. I think some of the answers may be in the IRS letter

http://www.ucc.org/news/pdf/lettrirs.pdf


In the last two lines of page 1, and the first 3 paragraphs of page 2 (it's a PDF document so I can't copy and paste) it explains what the issue was. It appears that, essentially, the problems were that Obama was the only one asked to speak at the event (which implies support for him by the synod), and that there were 40 Obama volunteers outside the center promoting his campaign.




Other churches have had clashes with the IRS for issues with candidates. For example, last August Americans United called for a church in CA to be investigated because the pastor, Wiley Drake, had sent out a press release endorsing Mike Huckabee. The IRS later decided to do so. Most recently, Wiley was in the news because he asked his followers to engage in "Imprecatory Prayers" (IOW, he wanted them to pray for the deaths of) against members of Americans United because they'd had the audacity to ask the IRS to investigate him for his illegal activities.

Gotta love those fundies. :sarcasm:

[Critters2]

27. I think they can easily argue that he was the only candidate invited

because he's the only one who is UCC. But the campaign workers on site are hard to explain away. I do think that crossed a line.

[NMMNG]

37. You're right there

Even though the campaign workers were outside the building they were still close enough to leave people with the impression that they were connected with the event. Therefore it was crossing the line. As for Obama being the only one invited, AFAIK he is the only UCC candidate.

[Critters2]

46. They were connected with the event.

I don't see how they can argue otherwise.

If my congregation loses its 501c3 over this, I am going to be pissed!

For what that's worth.

[lumpy]

38. Gotta' love the First Southern Baptistibans. Not.

Reactionary right back to the stone age. It was interesting to visit one of their church services which consisted mainly of denigrating other churches.

[NMMNG]

39. Denigrating everybody

I think they hate everyone but themselves. :scared:

[BrotherBuzz]

56. Truth be told, I believe they secretly hate themselves, and don't know why

We cannot change anything unless we first accept it;
condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses. - Carl Jung

Interesting, My childhood reverend,in our humble little UCC church on the west coast, was a student of Carl Jung's work, and consequently, we learned a lot about Jung's philosophy in his weekly sermons. I wonder if First Southern Baptists ever even heard of Jung?

[NMMNG]

57. Probably not

Jung isn't in the Bible. ;-)

[davidinalameda]

44. he's the only one running who's a member of the UCC

and let's not forget he was how many points down in the polls when he spoke?

it's interesting, for lack of a better word, that this is coming out now-a week before the March 2 primaries

[Critters2]

45. He spoke in June. Were there polls in June? nt

[davidinalameda]

48. yes

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x2882.xml?ReleaseID=1079

[NMMNG]

53. The time delay isn't surprising

I don't think it has anything to do with the primaries.

The IRS action on the Wiley/Huckabee issue I referenced in my previous post took 6 months from the date of the original action. (Wiley endorsed Huckabee in August, and the IRS action occurred in February of the next year).

[JerseygirlCT]

34. That's very frightening. I wonder where things stand with

All Saints in Pasadena, too? They were targeted last year because of a sermon that was anti-war. In church? Anti-war? Can you imagine?

This is one more example of the GOP and Bush administration's absolute willingness to use any means at their disposal to harm the opposition, regardless of its legality. Gov. Siegelman probably has something to say on that count, too.

[spooky3]

40. the IRS did this to a Pasadena church in 2004 (link inside)

http://www.votelaw.com/blog/archives/005413.html

[lonestarnot]

41. Why should this surprise you? An innocent Governor (dem) from Alabama sits

in the slammer for being a dem! Fight or cough up the taxes or stay home!

[mzmolly]

42. I got the same alert.

This is absurd.

[Critters2]

43. Wow! There are more UCCs here than I realized!

:hi: Hi, UCC sibling!

[mzmolly]

47. Hola!

I'm not one to make it to Church, but I love the action alerts and the "values" of the UCC. I wish they had a late service near by, I'd likely go more often. ;)

:hi:

[Critters2]

50. Hola!

[davidinalameda]

49. hi

:hi:

[Critters2]

51. Hi! Are you anywhere near San Luis Obispo?

A friend of mine took a call there about a year ago. He spent nine years in Iowa, but was homesick for California.

[davidinalameda]

52. Alameda is up the coast about 3 or 4 hrs

we're by Oakland and across the bay from San Francisco

[Critters2]

54. Oh. I don't know California at all.

Only time I was ever there was when Synod was in Oakland. I was a delegate, so no time for sightseeing. I only saw my hotel room, the convention center, and the sidewalk in between. I have no feel for California at all.

My girlfriend did her BA at Berkeley and wants to retire to that area. I want to retire to Iowa. i foresee this being a problem. If the relationship lasts that long.

[davidinalameda]

58. you can't afford to retire to this area

hateful expensive out here

but you all could settle on some places maybe in the northern part of the state-rural, but still close enough to the SF and Sacramento areas

[Wizard777]

55. Pastor Hagee has "endorsed" Mc Cain. But I don't think the IRS will investigate.

Another politically motivated investigation.

[hootinholler]

59. I heard this on NPR last night...

He was invited before he announced his candidacy!

-Hoot