I have a problem hearing that John McCain is a "hero".

[rasputin1952]

Don't get me wrong, he served admirably, (unlike like bush), was wounded, and spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton, but to call him a "hero" is bit of an overstatement.

Let me begin by saying that there are many heroes this nation has produced. I'd like to mention three of them that were truly war heroes.

Bob Kerry, awarded the MOH for heroism in Vietnam. Trashed by the GOP, when he was just thinking of running for president against bush in 2000.

Max Cleland, trashed by the GOP as a "coward" and "on a beer run" when he tried to toss a live grenade away from a Slick, (UH-1 Huey), to save the men in the chopper. The RW never mentions that about two weeks before that tragic incident, Cleland was awarder the Silver Star because of action in where he pulled wounded men from his Signal unit to safety during a fire fight, and by administering medical aid, he is directly responsible for saving at least two lives...while under fire.

But there is one person that, in my opinion sets the bar for heroism. He never ran for office, in fact, before his death, he spent the last years of his life going to elementary and secondary schools telling children to aspire to their dreams, they could do whatever they wanted if they put their minds to it. He was not just military hero, he was a civilian hero as well, dedicating himself the well being of many communities. His name was Roy Benavides.

You can read of Kerry and Benavides here:

http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html

Just go to "Vietnam", pick the alphabetical list, and scroll till you find the citation.

What I'm saying here is that while McCain did his duty, he is no "hero", at least not in the realistic sense of the word. Heroes abound all around us, we see them everyday, they are out there tirelessly working to make their corner of the world just a little better.

McCain, no.

One other thing...the real heroes of war rest under military stone or bronze, they sleep under the waves. They died, so that we may live in freedom.

:patriot:

[terryg11]

1. sorry

as you said, he spent five years as a pow in vietnam and never once broke, even if I don't agree with everything he stands for politically he more than served his country and I would consider him a hero for what he did over thirty years ago.

[rasputin1952]

24. he did "break"...

he gave out information under the extreme duress of torture. he states in his book that he did not give out any relative information the North Vietnamese could use, but he did talk. By definition, he "broke".

Let me set something straight there. McCain served his nation, and he served admirably, that is not what I posted about, I posted he is no, nor was he ever a "hero".

One of th points the RW is saying is that he is a"hero" because he would not leave his fellow prisoners...Two things about that:

1. The Hanoi Hilton was not a hotel where a person could "leave" at will.

2. he was the son of an admiral, (supposedly why he was offered an "out"). If he had taken advantage of that, he would have been branded a coward, his fathers career would have been destroyed, and he would never be able to pursue anything other than corrupt dog catcher in public life. His military career would have been over immediately, and the possibility exists he could have been tried under the UCMJ.

No hero there, just someone who was practical.

[ClassWarrior]

2. He was never really in the Hanoi Hilton...

...was he? :evilgrin:

NGU.

[Uben]

3. Every soldier is a hero

Any man or woman who chooses to defend their nation is a hero in my book. I make it a point to shake hands and thank every enlisted man or woman I see. I also send supplies to our troops in iraq and Afghanistan for them to use in their spare time. I do not have any family currently serving in the military, but I sure do support those who do. I am too old to serve now, but am doing what I can to help.

[rasputin1952]

25. Thank you...

You are a hero!

:patriot:

[paperbag_ princess]

4. not to mention

that they offered to let him leave, but McCain declined because it was not fair to the other POWs and he knew it would be used as propaganda against the US.

He is a hero in any sense of the word....regardless of whether he has had failings in other areas of his life.

[longshotjohn]

11. not to mention

And I agree with you paper_bag princess. McCain is a hero I don't give a whit what any one says on the negative side about that. His father and grandfather both Navy Admirals-the boy had a lot of living up to do. Sure, he was a rebel at the Naval Academy and near the bottom of his class, but he rose to the occasion in War.

:thumbsup:

[Swede]

5. He repeatedly put his life in the line of fire.

I think that's a hero.

[rasputin1952]

26. That is what everyone in the military is expected to do...

it is the job we signed on for.

the word "hero" is bandied about as if it were a tennis ball...i didn't see anyone one on the RW, not one, say that John kerrey was a "hero"...they lambasted him at every level. McCain did his job, and as a vet, I appreciate and respect that...he was no hero.

[Yael]

6. I don't believe that he is fit to be president, but he defines "war hero"

He was offered early release -- but stayed an extra 5 years under the 'first in first out' premiss.

A hero leaves no man behind.

IMO, find another argument. This just makes Democrats look petty and out of touch with reality.

[rasputin1952]

27. he would have been despised if he had taken an ...

"easy out".

His name would be right there w/Benedict Arnold. By staying there, he was being practical, not heroic.

[stellanoir]

7. It is said that he was given option for release by the Vietcong when they

learned of his father's status as an admiral and unless his fellow POW's were released he chose to decline option to leave.

That was rather heroic.

I take far greater issue with him being constantly branded as a "maverick."

There is nothing remotely maverick about war mongers really.

[ClassWarrior]

15. So he stayed as a stunt to pad his Presidential resume?

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[stellanoir]

20. Or maybe he was suffering from Stockholm syndrome or something

like most RWers do by being lulled into a false sense of security by their oppressors and abusers.

[AngryAmish]

21. He was never a prisoner of the Vietcong

He was a prisoner of the North Vietnamese government/Army.

Vietcong was the guerrilla aspect of the army who did not wear uniforms. While controlled by the North Vietnamese government and/or communist party it was not a formal warfighting unit. Vietcong were active in South Vietnam.


Pedantic point I know. But that is me, Mr. Pedantic!

[stellanoir]

23. whoops & that's for the correction

that felt sort of "off" when I typed it but I was too lazy to research it.

[LostinVA]

8. John McCain is a legitimate war hero

And, I hope our side stays very, very far from saying he isn't or in "swiftboating" him like the GOP did Kerry, also another legit war hero. We had no right to be in Vietnam, but I can't rail against the soldiers who were there, including Gore, Kerry, Kerrey, Cleland, McCain, and Ross Perot's running mate, whose name I know but has left my head right now!

[rasputin1952]

29. Admiral Stockdale...

recipient of the MOH.

He did some fine things.

[Red Zelda]

9. "Every soldier a hero, everyone else a bum"

THAT'S fucked-up thinking, America, but you keep on doing it.

[gratuitous]

12. Not very far from actual thinking

And I'll agree with you, Zelda; there is far too much thinking that simply donning a military uniform qualifies as heroic. It's our true national religion, more than Christianity in any of its forms, more than capitalism, more than anything. It permeates the fabric of our society so thoroughly that we don't even recognize it a lot of time. There's an old saying that the last creature you would expect to discover water would be a fish. Likewise, the Myth of Redemptive Violence is so inculcated in our habits, thinking, mores and culture that it's part of the essence of being an American, the notion that military violence is a universal solution to any problem.

The idea that "everyone else is a bum" isn't stated, and I don't think everyone worshiping at the altar of Redemptive Violence believes that. But it sure is lurking in the shadows of the church where the candles don't quite illuminate.

[Fuzz]

10. I don't have a problem with it.

I DO have a problem with 'republicans' trashing any Democrat who served and don't expect us to do the same. Issues interest me more.

[Virginia Dare]

13. They do seem to cherry-pick their heroes don't they?...n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. What does being a "hero" have to do with being president?

He was a navy pilot. He did what he was told by the bosses. He was injured while doing so. The bosses thought he did a good job and gave him some tinware for his trouble. He was praised by the public and elevated to public office because he did what he was supposed to do.

I see no correlation between that and serving in any public office.

[Serial Mom]

16. I understand he suffered as a POW and served our country

but it was during a violent ugly unconstitutional war where innocent men, women and children died at the hands of our soldiers.

From vets of that war that I know, he was called just a flyboy. He flew planes, dropped bombs and then returned to his carrier (until he was shot down). A couple of these vets claim flyboys did NOT understand what the men on the ground were going thru to fight this guerrilla warfare. Braver men such as John Kerry and thos mentioned above knew what was going on over there - McCain didn't until he was captured.

I applaud his service, and maybe his heriosm for withstanding what they did to him, but he never really understood that war so cannot boast that he knows anything about how to fight the current war. After all, he just wants to "bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran" again.

[madokie]

19. You put is so well,

[madokie]

17. Thank you

I should be a hero for keeping my ass from being captured not him for being. I just don't subscribe to the thought that mr. McCain is a hero anymore than I do my last dog was when he saved a child by pushing him out of the way of a car that he, my dog, didn't survive.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I agree with you. What he did in Hanoi was admirable, to be sure .....

... but it can also be argued that all he did was his duty .... which, according the to the UCMJ, was, essentially, to act honorably while a prisoner of war.

Apart from that, he was, at best, a mediocre officer who crashed a few too many planes. he got out without a star when, by all measures, he could have had plenty, given who dad and grampa were.

He is WAY over rated.

[madmom]

22. John McCain lost all credibility and respect when he advocated water boarding!

[tuckessee]

28. Any American who kills foreigners for dubious reasons is a hero. n/t