McCain was Born in the Panama Canal Zone

[BeatleBoot]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/28/america/28mccain.php

<snip>

McCain's likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a "natural-born citizen" can hold the nation's highest office.

<more>

[The Straight Story]

1. So being born to American parents on foreign soil makes you not an American

Who stretches things that far?

[dflprincess]

3. And McCain was born on an American Military base

which, I thought, would be considered American soil.

This crap has got be coming from the neocons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Slight correction

he was born in the CANAL ZONE, that was US Territory... and a US Base

So he was born of US Parents (His dad even served as an Admiral during WW II). and in an American Hospital inside an American base.

I really don't get the "scandal."

What I do get is that those even pushing it, (ironically even Fix and friends) are ignorant of International Law

McCain is a US Citizen by two means... blood and land. (Ob and fulfilling every need of the US Constitution to run for office)

[The Straight Story]

6. Thanks for the correction

Makes it even worse.

There are a lot more things to rip his ass over than this - if not, we are in big trouble.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Exactomundo, also realize who started this one

FIXED news....

Makes you wonder

[BeatleBoot]

17. Fixed News? I got it from RawStory ? Is that a bad thing?

Honest. I'll be a good little liberal.

I don't want any problems with the liberal police.

Who do you want me to support?

I'll do it, honest. I don't have a mind of my own.

I just want to be a part of YOUR club...

Snook'ems

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Oberman went into it today... apparently Fixed and Friends started discussing this

and as usual it has picked up steam.

It makes you wonder WHY?

Cui Bono?

Anything Fixed news does raises, or should raise, an alarm bell

But they are now sliming their heir apparent to bush

[BeatleBoot]

23. Well, its like way on the bottom of the page at RawStory

so are my credentials still in tact or do I have to go show my papers to the Kommandant?

Let me know.

I promise, I won't step out of line again.

Heil Obama!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. ????????????

Don't get your reaction at all.

I just pointed out where this has been discussed (apart of raw story) and why this MIGHT be important

Whatever.

The origin of this story is definitely important... but if you think that snark is what this is about, whatever.

By the way I give a rat's ass about supposed or real liberal credentials. I was just POINTING A DAMN FACT... which was POINTED by a NEWS PROGRAM

God...

[BeatleBoot]

33. "Realize Who Started This One" ???

Oops..

"This one" was FoxNews?

I thought "this one" was me?

Eggs on my face.

Just a little too much - this site - lately.


I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Take a break

[BeatleBoot]

35. Thanks.

Way so sorry!

:hi:


Off to do this:

:boring:

[Prefer]

19. He is a dual citizen of Panama and the US, by default

I have a relative in that same situation as McCain.

[Harry Monroe]

24. No, he's not a citizen of Panama

He was born in the Panama Canal Zone when it was US Territory. That does not make him a citizen of Panama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. No, he was born INSIDE a US Base, not in the town in the local hospital

otherwise you'd have a slight point... as some nations require you to declare your allegiance at the age of majorty

[Prefer]

47. Actually

my father in law was Army, born to an Army family in Panama, he is not much younger than McCain, about 9 years. He is a dual citizen as a result of being born there. He would have also been born inside a US base, just like McCain.

So are you saying my father in law is NOT a dual citizen of Panama? We know him to be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Depends on Panama

really. If Panama wishes to give him the citizenship, since the base is in their country, their prerrogative

But he is also a US Citizen born on US Territory

[Prefer]

72. Wow, you can't admit you were talking out your ass?

now you start saying "it depends on Panama"?

Face it, you made an assertion that was proven wrong by my personal experience, and you can't actually bear to admit that you were wrong. My Inlaw is a DUAL CITIZEN as a result of his birth. That is a FACT. It doesn't "depend on Panama"...

I now have to be suspect of everything that you say, because you have demonstrated that you don't have the personal integrity to be honest to us. You'd rather tap dance and try to save some illusion of authority for yourself than to simply be honest.

[SoCalDem]

41. My brother was born in Panama, but OFF-base, so he had dual citizenship

and the dr joked that the only thing he could not do was become president.. he was born at Gorgas Hospital (due to complications)..

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. You can get dual citizenship even if you were born in the CZ.

Panama proclaimed its sovereignty over the Canal Zone, hence, those who were born in the CZ who wanted to stay, could apply for citizenship if they wanted to

[Midlodemocrat]

49. Because there is no scandal. He's a citizen. Period. End of story.

[SoonerPride]

52. Not "Natural Born" though.

EOM

[ProdigalJunkMail]

54. yes he is...it is settled law n/t

[elizfeelinggreat]

7. republicans

of course. (but you knew that)

Imagine, a child of someone in our military, serving there ... they really are stretching!

[BeatleBoot]

9. No one is talking about citizenship.

The U.S. Constitution says that to be President...you must be a "natural born" citizen.

Born in the United States.

Governor Jennifer Granholm of Michigan is a U.S. citizen, but she can never become President because she was born in Canada.

[The Straight Story]

11. What does Natual Born mean?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Under International Law from US Parents on US Territory

that was the understanding in the 18th century, and applies today.

Under modern International Law being born in the territory of insert nation here confers citizenship (A base is territory... and this is by land) Born of One or TWO parents confers that citizenship too... why some in the right want to remove the being born in the US from automatic citizenship... never mind it violated accepted international law

Pesky International Law class I took in College

:-)

By the way any descent Civics class or history class would touch on this as well

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. US Parents, US Base, he was born IN THE US

if he was born aboard a US Flagged vessel, same story. or a US embassy

Read a little on international law

The governor was NOT born in US Territory... or at least I don't believe Canada is American Territory, which ANY US base is under International Law

[BeatleBoot]

16. Did I say she WAS born in a U.S. Territory?

No I didn't.


So WHAT's UP with the CAPS?

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Just to clarify

She was born in Canada... and is a naturalized US Citizen. There are other offices she could never occupy such as Senate Majority leader, due to the succession rules, and if she was in the cabinet, even if she was the SecState, she would never be in the succession line

He was born in a US Territory from US Parents.

Get it now?

And sorry for the caps...

[BeatleBoot]

29. Jah Wol Herr Kommandant

You will see my papers are in order.

I am a card carrying member of the Democratic Party.

Heil Obama!

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. You know, as a daughter of a holocaust survivor your snark is a little

disgusting... on report you go

[Sherman A1]

38. Agreed & Well Said

[MonkeyFunk]

40. She could certainly be Senate Majority Leader

First, it's not the line of succession. Second, even if it were, she could hold the position - just be skipped over in succession. It's no different than Madeline Albright being Secretary of STate.

[Wabbajack_]

43. A senate Maj Leader

needs to be a "natural born"?

[MonkeyFunk]

44. Nope

Our resident self-styled historian has some very strange ideas about the constitution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Cannot serve as president of the executive if he is not natural born

and by tradition they are

[MonkeyFunk]

75. You're just wrong

there's no requirement that the Senate Majority Leader be a natural-born citizen. And the Senate Majority Leader is not in the line of succession.

As a prominent historian recently wrote:

"By the way any descent (sic) Civics class or history class would touch on this as well"

[razors edge]

22. So Guantanamo is a US territory?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Technically, and it gets very muddy, yes

but since the Cubans have not cashed the rent check since 1960... why they can make that argument that US law does not apply (never mind the USSC has not truly taken that side either and has declared Prrisoners have a right to US Courts and lawyers... not that this has been obeyed by the administration)

[razors edge]

36. I didn't think a lease was a territorial possesion.

Have you seen this?

http://muddythoughts.blogspot.com/

It’s pretty clear from the original treaty the Canal Zone was actually Panamanian land leased to the United States. The Torrijos-Carter Treaty of 1977 further backs this up:

Article I

2. In accordance with the terms of this Treaty and related agreements, the Republic of Panama, as territorial sovereign, grants to the United States of America, for the duration of this Treaty, the rights necessary to regulate the transit of ships through the Panama Canal, and to manage, operate, maintain, improve, protect and defend the Canal. The Republic of Panama guarantees to the United States of America the peaceful use of the land and water areas which it has been granted the rights to use for such purposes pursuant to this Treaty and related agreements.

Note this treaty declares Panama as the territorial sovereign, meaning they own the land and water, and they grant to the United States use of the land and water.

It is conclusive that the Panama Canal Zone was Panamanian sovereign land administered and operated under treaty by the United States, and that popular belief that the Canal Zone was a United States territory is mistaken. This also is consistent with the State Department regulations in 7 FAM 1100 and 8 USC 1403(a) cited above.

Since the Canal Zone was not “in the United States” with respect to the 14th Amendment, it must follow that the only place it can be is outside the United States. John McCain was born outside the United States in the Canal Zone, and as we have already seen, was covered under 8 USC 1403(a).

If you look again at 8 USC 1401(c) and 1403(a), you see a big difference. 8 USC 1401(c) address births outside the U.S., meaning clearly that the “born in the United States” clause of the 14th Amendment cannot apply to this form of citizenship. Therefore a person that falls under 8 USC 1401(c) has to be a naturalized citizen. 8 USC 1403(a) already “declares” citizenship and implies naturalization. The only logical conclusion is that the Canal Zone was considered to be outside the United States, else these sections (8 USC 1401(c) and 8 USC 1403(a)) never needed to be codified into law in the first place, and 8 USC 1401(a) would apply instead (see above).

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Yes but you also have another fact.... both Guantamo and the Canal Zpne

had US Flagged US Military Bases, specifically USN bases. Military bases have the status of an embassy

[scisyhp1]

50. No, they do not have status of an embassy.

Status of military bases is determined by mutual agreement between the US
and a host country. Base territory is never considered souvereign territory
of the US, in fact in most cases US may be asked by the host country to pick
up and leave as soon as current agreement expires (as Panama did) or even
before that with sufficient notice. US has no claim to souvereignity over
that land.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. According to INTERNATIONAL LAW. I know that pesky thing

for the DURATION of that base, any person entering that base is entering the territory of that country's base of origin and people BORN inside that facility are considered to be born INSIDE that country, not the host country.

I know pesky.

[razors edge]

73. You have lots of "pesky" going on

but "pesky" doesn't let me walk if I break the law. I don't know where pesky is addressed in the law, can you point out one place in law where pesky is addressed?

[razors edge]

62. Does an embassy have

the international recognition and legal status of a territory?

If so where is it stated?

[fishwax]

15. natural born doesn't exclusively mean born in the U.S.

Children born abroad to parents who are U.S. citizens are U.S. citizens at birth.

[scisyhp1]

51. "Citizen at birth" does not need to be the same as

"natural born citizen". One can be "citizen at birth" of several
different countries at the same time, but for all but one s/he
will be born outside of. In fact s/he can be born outside of all
her/his countries of citizenship at birth. The Constitution does
not say "citizen at birth", but "natural born citizen". If it is
not clear what it means, it is up to the Supreme Court to interprete
the concept. It is conceivable that the interpretation could be made
based on original intent to disqualify anyone with potential dual
loyalty from becoming President, and "natural born" means strictly born
in the US of US citizens. In this case, McCain becoming President
will clearly violate the Constitution.

[fishwax]

63. nor does "natural born citizen" mean the same as "native-born citizen"

"One can be "citizen at birth" of several different countries at the same time, but for all but one s/he will be born outside of."

And one can be a natural born citizen of multiple countries at the same time :shrug: Nothing in the constitution suggests that "natural born citizen" means only those born in the United States. Citizenship to those born within the U.S. (jus soli) is guaranteed by the 14th amendment, but citizenship by bloodline (jus sanguinis) is guaranteed by other statutes. Generally speaking (with a few exceptions in each case), people born within the United States (regardless of parentage) and people born to U.S. citizens (regardless of location) acquire citizenship automatically at birth.

"It is conceivable that the interpretation could be made based on original intent to disqualify anyone with potential dual loyalty from becoming President, and "natural born" means strictly born in the US of US citizens."

I'm not convinced that's conceivable at all. For one thing, there's no reason to believe that the framers intended to mean born within the U.S. For another, even ruling in that way wouldn't prevent someone with dual citizenship/dual loyalty from being eligible.

Finally, even if there were some way of twisting the law that wasn't patently absurd, it's unlikely that this supreme court would rule against McCain in this regard. :)

By the way, welcome to DU, scisyhp1! :toast::hi:

[pinto]

2. It's interesting, yet moot. I favor we challenge McCain on "more of the same",

not being born in an American protectorate or whatever the legal status of the Canal Zone was in those days.

:kick:

[Ravy]

5. Anyone living in the United States at the time that the Constitution

was ratified is grandfathered.

[idovoodoo]

8. Well, yeah he's old, but geez louise

:evilgrin:

[spag68]

12. McCain

I don't care where he was born. I'm more interested in the fact that he barely got through the academy, sat in his plane while things where blowing up all around him, then got shot down and was a pow for 5 years. How does that make you a hero? Now don't be flaming me, I was in and out of the service before 1963, so i'm a vet. also.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Must Have Been A Huge baby

Couldn't fit in the birth canal.

[peekaloo]

25. lol

his momma's canal is soooooooooo big........}(

[Spinzonner]

26. That's all water under the lock

[WillowTree]

27. You do realize, don't you,

that a child born to US citizens is a US citizen by birth? Or don't you?

The term "natural born" has always been interpreted to mean just that; someone who is a citizen by birth as opposed to a naturalized citizen. That's all the Constitution requires and that is a fact that was strengthened by an Act of Congress in the 1790s.

This is a debate that is long since settled. Now go forth and find something of actual substance.

[DRoseDARs]

39. Erm, if you bothered reading the article you'd know the debate is NOT settled...

It still causes consternation for constitutional law researchers. Most people (experts and laypersons) would agree with the position that a child born of US citizens most certainly meets "natural-born" status, Congress has made some attempts in the past to address the issue, FDR's son decided not to run for the presidency because his people decided that his birth on a Canadian island disqualified him despite being the son of a US president. The fact of the matter is this issue is still somewhat vague and until Congress addresses it head on (apply directly to the forehead...) or a case is brought before the Supreme Court, it will remain fuzzy.

In McCain's case, he'll be fine. I believe both US and international law recognize the soil under both US military installations and consulates/embassies is legally US sovereign soil. The Coco Solo Air Base was US soil from 1918 to 1999; McCain's being born 1936 places him squarely in "natural-born" territory, nevermind that both his parents are natural-born US citizens. This dog won't hunt McCain, but beyond McCain it's hardly a settled issue.

[MonkeyFunk]

45. Do you have a reference for the claim

regarding FDR's son? I suppose you mean Franklin Jr.

He had a rather undistinguished political career. Served 3 terms in congress, twice lost running for for NY Governor and lost the race for NY Attorney-General. When did he consider running for President?

[DRoseDARs]

74. You could try reading the article in the OP of this thread...

...that apparently no one is reading. ;)

"It also surfaced in the 1968 candidacy of George Romney, who was born in Mexico, but again was not tested. The former Connecticut politician Lowell Weicker Jr., born in Paris, sought a legal analysis when considering the presidency, an aide said, and was assured he was eligible. Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr. was once viewed as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible since he had been born on Campobello Island in Canada. The 21st president, Chester Arthur, whose birthplace is Vermont, was rumored to have actually been born in Canada, prompting some to question his eligibility."

[MonkeyFunk]

76. That's very diferent from your claim

You said he decided not to run because "his people" decided that his birth on Campobello disqualified him. That's a very far cry from "was seen as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible..."

[treestar]

55. I agree that the dog won't hunt for intelligent people; but was are talking

about the electorate is Barack Hussain Obama's name can bother them, this can too!

The right is cynical about the public and we have faith in them. Sometimes I wonder if this is not to our detriment.

Reality or the law does not set in with a good portion of the public. This might bother them though it shouldn't. It's the type of thing the repukes would exploit.

[scisyhp1]

56. There is no such recognition of US military installation status

by US or international law. Not only US bases are not "US sovereign soil",
in most cases US does not even own the land on which they are built. US have
some limited jurisdiction over that territory, but, for instance a Panamanian
citizen who committed a crime in the Canal Zone, would have been subject to
Panama's law. The land is temporarily leased by mutual agreement with the host
country and has to be vacated as soon as that agreement expires without being
extended. That's what happened in Panama. Would the US have been evicted from its
sovereign soil? I don't think so.

[DRoseDARs]

60. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy disagrees with you...

In regards to Guantanamo Naval Base:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/topstories/2007-12-08-3774991251_x.htm
"Justice Anthony Kennedy, considered a pivotal vote in the Guantanamo case before the Supreme Court, has already revealed his leanings on what laws apply at Guantanamo. In a 2004 opinion, he said: "Guantanamo Bay is in every practical respect a United States territory.""

Guantanamo is admittedly a fuzzy issue to cite (the Bush Administration is saying US law doesn't apply even though the Endangered Species Act, which is US law, DOES apply), but Google wasn't turning up any more useful links detailing the legal status of the ground underneath US military installations. It's your turn to cite some sources to back up your claim on legality (I already knew about the Panama lease; Guantanamo is also on a lease and yet US law both does and doesn't apply). :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. And justice Kennedy did not make many friends

but indeed that was his judgement and why Guantamo has become quite sticky

[burrowowl]

42. Interesting

my brother was born on the USAF Torrejon Airbase in Spain and is not eligible to be President.
If McCain was born in Panama even on an USAF Base, he is not eliglible. You have to be born in a USA STATE. Would be interesting to see if someone born in Alasaka or Hawaii before they were states if they could run.
Edit: also interesting that Cheney hied to Wyoming since his address was Texas as well as Bu$h. Oh, so interesting.
If McCain was born in Panama, he is not eligible, even on an US Air Force Base.

[MonkeyFunk]

46. You're just wrong

Why is your brother not eligible?

There are two kinds of citizens - natural-born and naturalized.

Did your brother have to be naturalized?

[Lex]

59. Nice try. But you're incorrect.

nt

[FLDCVADem]

70. I'm not sure who told you that...

...but they are incorrect. Having served in the Air Force for 20 years, and having had one of my children born in a USAF hospital in Germany, I can attest to the fact that they most certainly are "natural born" citizens, and thus eligible to be President.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says you have to be born in a USA STATE (emphasis yours).

[treestar]

53. He is arguably born a citizen, but there is room to make an issue of it

Which we ought to do. We know damn well they would do it to a Democratic candidate in the same position.

"Natural born" could include the zone or include those born of US parents abroad. Still, someone ought to look that up and if there is any opening to exploit, do it.

[trayfoot]

57. Stupid Argument - Whoever is advancing it!

GOD knows.....I am not now and never will be a supporter of McCain, but this BS is just that - BS! McCain is a "natural born citizen" by virtue of the concept of "jus sanguinas" ----- born of American parents, and it does not matter where those parents were at the time of the birth!

[Lex]

58. This is a non-starter. Plenty to attack McCain on, but

this ain't it.

[Thepricebreaker]

61. This makes us look like fools: Some facts..

Abraham Lincoln was the first US president born outside of the original thirteen colonies.

BARRY GOLDWATER was born in the Arizona territory in 1909 which was not a state at the time.

LOWELL P. WEICKER JR., of Connecticut, born in Paris, was told he was eligible for the Oval Office.

GEORGE ROMNEY, born in Mexico, ran for the presidency in 1968.

[Rex]

66. Moot point, McCain has zero chance.

Nonion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. You forget Diebold

if they find a way, they will steal it. Mark my words

[Rex]

71. Not with John.

Someone else, yes.