Just got back from a car show; I'm totally disgusted

[MorningGlow]

Mr. MG, MG Jr. (4, who loooooooves cars), and I just got back from a fairly large auto show. We were there most of the afternoon, because Jr. had to sit in just about every car he could manage to climb into. While Mr. MG wrangled the kid, I held the coats and followed behind. I did a lot of eavesdropping, and nearly every conversation attendees were having had to do with concern about gas mileage.

But what did I see on all the stickers? 14 to 19 MPG. 16 to 24 MPG. The highest I saw, aside from one (one!) hybrid (but many weren't there--no Toyota hybrids were represented), was 30 MPG highway.

I am totally, completely, irretrievably disgusted. The car makers are not even TRYING. Not even making an effort. It's like they're stuck in 1956, when you could fill up your tank for $1.50. What is it going to take for car manufacturers to figure out that the thing buyers want most is not more cupholders or MP3 hookups or new garish colors (dark lime green and orange seem to be "in" for '09 :puke: ), but FUEL EFFICIENCY.

I weep for this country. Truly I do.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

1. And did you notice the price of them.

[MorningGlow]

6. Unbelievable, some of them

Nothing was cheap, although Jr. blew past the Kias, so I didn't get a good sense of the prices of economy cars. But sheesh--a Lexus for $73,000? $80,000? The price of a small house?! Mr. MG said (jokingly), "Yeah, but it has leather seats." I said, "For that price, they'd better include the rest of the cow in a freezer." I think one 4x4 pickup was $70,000 as well.

Funny--the Hummers didn't even list the mileage on their fact sheets. They were all blank.

[CRF450]

23. I dont know of any trucks that cost 70 grand.

Unless the one you saw was a full decked out heavy duty diesle.

[MorningGlow]

31. It was there, I assure you

I can't remember what brand it was--I asked Mr. MG just now, and he couldn't recall either. It wasn't a diesel, but it was a fully loaded 4x4 monster. In pumpkin orange. :puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

77. Well if Kia's were there than there were cars with 30+ highway

The spectra Im pretty sure..

[walldude]

105. Hummer H2's- 8mpg average...

Which means about 10 on the highway and 6 in the city... :puke:

[Ian David]

2. See something, SAY something. n/t

[sandnsea]

3. I drove a Mazda station wagon in 1987

that got nearly 50 mpg. I drive a Neon now that gets nearly 40 mpg. There is no excuse for cars that et less than 25 mpg. They just shouldn't be allowed to be sold.

[MorningGlow]

9. Exactly--they are refusing to manufacture more efficient cars

They know what the concerns are, and they know how to make more efficient cars--but they just won't do it. Gotta make the oil companies happy, doncha know.

[defendandprotect]

42. Now . . . people of sane minds might laugh at that . . . expecting that

corporations would be making decisions based on improving their product ---

according to the myths of capitalism which most Americans believe . . . ???

But the reality of capitalism seems to be something quite different from what we were taught, eh?

Perhaps even anti-American, un-patriotic --- suicidal greed?

I think that Exxon-Mobil's 36 BILLION profit last year would provide for some rather large
kick-backs to the auto industry executives . . . ???

[northzax]

4. so go up to the representatives

and say "hey, why don't you have any that get over 30 mpg? if people do this at every autoshow, they will keep reporting back to the companies that this is what people are asking for.

[MorningGlow]

8. Meh. They were just booth babes.

I doubt anybody would have taken the message back to anyone who matters. But I have to admit that lots of people who were asking questions were bringing up mileage and asking about hybrids. (I overheard a Volvo rep trying to pooh-pooh hybrids using the "expensive battery" excuse.)

[Itchinjim]

5. Yaris!

They laughed at me when I bought this Toyota Yaris last spring. Who's laughing now ya big truck driving, small penis packing sonsabitches?!

[MorningGlow]

10. Yaris are CUTE

What's the mileage on that? I don't think I saw one at the show.

[TahitiNut]

12. 29 mpg city / 35 mpg hwy

http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_yaris_sedan_s_4_spd_at/

[WhollyHeretic]

14. My Yaris averages about 37 MPG (city and highway combined)

[Lorien]

64. ?? My '94 Toyota Camry gets 28 / 32

of course I live in Florida, and autos generally get better mileage in warmer climates, but still, I think that manufacturers CAN do much better.

This will be my next car:





It's the Aptera, and it gets up to 300 MPG.

www.aptera.com

It'll do for a good 90% of my driving needs. For the other 10% I'm hoping that I can get the Camry to limp along for another ten years (so far, so good)!

[JVS]

13. The gauges are mounted on the center of the dash instead of in front of the driver, right?

I'm considering one, but I have to ask: how long did it take to get used to looking to the right for the speedometer?

[WhollyHeretic]

16. I didn't even notice it after a week or two. I've had the car for about a year now

It has a fairly roomy interior for such a small car.

[kimmylavin]

18. Got one myself, last December.

Took about a month or so to get used to the configuration. :)

BUT - the thing's got three glove compartments, three cupholders (plus two water bottle ones in the doors), an iPod hookup, tons of places to put stuff, room for four adults (tried it out with my somewhat large relatives!), more room than you think it would (think 20 or so grocery bags), folding back seats that can make the car hold more/bigger stuff, and I've been getting about 35 to 40 mpg with mine.

I drove it cross country last summer, was completely comfortable and didn't have any problems.
My husband calls it my "roller skate", but affectionately, and I LOVE driving it.
Its fun, its zippy, and it gets into parking spaces that other cars just can't (big plus in Los Angeles!)

Plus its a relatively cheap car!
You get two options (power pack or not).
I got the power pack, and I think my total - with the full warranty - was around $16,500.

Just my two cents (well, more than that, I guess!), but I hope it helps!

[Itchinjim]

20. Just a couple of days for me, I love mine and my brother bought one too.

He got it for his commute from Joliet to Chicago and is absolutely pleased with it.
Edited to add that I'm 6' 4" and I fit into it with no problem whatsoever.

[TCJ70]

124. It's not that hard...

...my Saturn is like that. It's actually pretty nice.

[AZ Criminal JD]

24. I drive a F-150 and I laugh at you every day.

[Itchinjim]

25. Why?

Do tell.

[Telly Savalas]

45. Because of your pitiable selfish materialism.

You should be more charitable and give your money to poor oil companies.

[AZ Criminal JD]

50. Because my truck is much safer than the car you drive.

When you hit me, your car and everything in it will be smashed to bits and I won't feel but a bump. I am more than willing to pay a few extra dollars every year for safety of me and the occupants of my truck. You can see above the traffic in a truck to avoid the idiots driving little cars. Plus it a hell of lot more useful for putting anything in it you want to move around. So yes, I'm laughing now since you asked.

[Itchinjim]

54. Well I won't be in Alabama any time soon so you don't have to worry

about me hitting you. However when you do get hit by F250 or a Hummer driven by a person with a smaller dick than even yours (That is if any you idiots can even afford to fuel up your behemoths) I won't laugh, I'll just pity your shortsightedness and selfishness. Then I'll drive home and haul sheetrock around in my very useful and fuel efficient 95 Ford Ranger.

[AZ Criminal JD]

56. I can afford the fuel just fine, thank you.

From your posts you seem to have an obsession about other people's dick size. I think that answers a question.

[Itchinjim]

57. And what queston might that be?

[AZ Criminal JD]

59. Why are you obessed with other people's dick size?

The last time I gave much thought to it was before I was even old enough to drive.

[dysfunctional press]

72. i noticed that about his posts as well...what's up with that?

some people are WAAAAAY too obsessed about other people's genitals.

[Itchinjim]

84. Pointing out that persons who feel the need to compensate for some perceived inadequacy

by owning a large truck is hardly an obsession and I would guess that a lot of persons who feel the need to drive large trucks have some sort of masculinity issues whether conscious or unconscious. Now then in my original post did I say that Bamalib has a small dick because he drives a big truck? No I did not. But you seem to taken the post rather personally which makes me believe that I must have struck a nerve little guy.

[AZ Criminal JD]

94. The people who relate dick size to vehicle size are the same nuts who see dick size everywhere.

I know it would come out of you if you posted about enough things. I am sure it has if I bothered to do a search of your posts. Of course that would be something to do with dick size too, wouldn't it? I have seen posts here about dick size and guns, dick size and cigars, etc. But of course anything THEY own has absolutely nothing to do with "masculinity issues" as you interestingly put it.

[Itchinjim]

104. Ok I drive a small car and you drive a big truck.

Jezz I've never gotten such grief over a throw away line. So therefore I apologize to you for any offense I may have given you or any other truck owner in the USA. And FYI I don't consider your F150 to be an unreasonably large truck. Unless it has 4WD because nobody in Alabama needs 4WD.

[AZ Criminal JD]

108. No apology needed. Just throwing thoughts back and forth.

And I agree most don't need a 4WD here, at least anywhere I want to go.

[nolabels]

119. I have to agree on both counts

I often deliver those larger diesel trucks back to the customer after i get done working on them. To me it's kind of scary because those big trucks could just crush any car or pickup trucks with one wrong move. My mother-law got crushed and killed by one while she was driving. Her front tire blew out on a two lane highway and pushed into the on coming Tractor trailer truck. She was driving crew cab Ford F350 lifted with four wheel drive big tires etc. Her two passengers just got minor injuries. It's in the luck of the draw and not really too much more :shrug:

[fascisthunter]

126. BINGO

[MattSh]

61. And you call yourself a liberal?

Hey, I'm protected. Fuck everyone else? That's what passes as liberal in 'bama???

[AZ Criminal JD]

67. I don't call myself a liberal. I am one.

The poster said he laughs at truck owners. I then said I laugh at him and then he asked me why. So I told him. I never said "I'm protected and fuck everyone else". It was the small car owner who brought it up. Anyone who can buy a car can buy a truck. Anyone. Now aren't you embarrassed?

[Uncle Joe]

76. If everyone buys a truck or SUV no one will be safe.

As their gas mileage is generally worse, the looming catastrophe of global warming climate change will only accelerate and intensify as more carbon is burned and put in the atmosphere. I believe we'll see even more tornadoes in the winter time as just one example.

[AZ Criminal JD]

82. Everyone doesn't have to buy a truck or SUV.

If you are so concerned about gas mileage maybe we should ban any car more than 10 years old. They all get less gas mileage than newer cars. But that would affect the poor wouldn't it? So what is it, take away cars from the poor or destroy the planet?

[Uncle Joe]

83. Older cars are phasing out due to attrition if nothing else,

I was addressing your safety and everyone can buy a truck or SUV point, these don't have the excuse of being old. I understand there is a legitimate need in many cases for a pick up truck but if the people don't start taking society as a whole in to consideration, no one will be buying anything.

[AZ Criminal JD]

93. Don't backtrack. If cars are destroying the planet, as you say, we can't wait for attrition.

That is the type of thinking of the big corporate polluters who would want us to wait until they gradually put in new controls and eliminate old plants. Poor people, just because they are poor, have no right to destroy the planet. Their cars must be taken from them now. That is the inescapable logic of your position so live with it and go for it. There are millions of old junkers on the highways and I hate them. Get rid of them now!

[Uncle Joe]

98. No one is backtracking, life is full of balancing acts, and I don't believe

there is a single answer to the looming catastrophe of global warming climate change.

Now that you mention it I suppose maybe a New Deal type of financing for them to obtain fuel efficient cars would be wise. The people would benefit and the human species might be saved as well. Of course mass transit would be best in places where it's feasible, unfortunately it's not in large swaths of the nation.

Nothing in my post lets big polluters off as I make a distinction between those that can and those that can't.

[bullwinkle428]

106. Older cars all get poorer mileage than newer cars? What a laugh!!

I can show you 20-year-old Honda CRXs that get 50+ mpg, using a conventional gas engine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CR-X

Yeah, they're almost impossible to find now, but they were one of the most affordable cars on the market when they were in production.

[martymar64]

112. My 20 year Civic gets about 30 mpg

It's beat up looking, but at today's price and with my driving, a $25 tank of gas will last me two weeks. I pity the truck drivers that are having to put so much more $ into the tank. If they'd rather blow there cash on gas, fine by me. I'll use my hard earned cash for better things.

[Harry Monroe]

118. My '94 Geo Prizm gets 29 mpg

And it is bought and paid for. I believe in buying and keeping reliable cars for as long as possible. Think of the carbon output that goes into building new cars, from the smelting of the steel and metal, the making of new plastics from hydrocarbons etc. There is a lot to be said for keeping an older car as long as possible; there are quite a few out there that get decent gas mileage.

[AZ Criminal JD]

132. Of course some get good mileage.

I was talking about comparable models. A newer car of the same model will almost always bet better mileage. But I was responding to the poster who said the world was going to end. I don't believe that so it doesn't matter how old the cars are or what their mileage is to me.

[wuushew]

63. How are trucks safer than cars in regards to rollovers?

Having a higher center of gravity just builds additional risk into your overall driving profile.

[AZ Criminal JD]

65. I have seen a lot of accidents including many rollovers.

I have never seen a truck rollover just cars and we have a lot of trucks here in Bama. I am sure they happen, just haven't seen any. I am not an accident investigator so I can just go by what I have seen and experienced.

[Lorien]

70. I've seen dozens of rollover accidents in Florida-MOST of which have

involved SUVs and Trucks-and the majority of those ended in serious injury or fatalities for the truck/ SUV driver.

[Pavulon]

78. False stigma

how is a truck different than an E class, 5 or 7 series BMW. Those cars are much heavier than most passenger cars and sub compacts. An accident involving a sub compact and any large sedan will result in more serious injuries in the small car.

Simple physics.

[CRF450]

91. Yes there heavier, but they still have a much lower center of gravity.

I love my Dakota as much as the next driver that likes his/her truck. But I actually feel safer in my 01 Trans Am being that if I see an accident about to happen, I mave MUCH better chance at avoiding it than in the Dakota.

[AZ Criminal JD]

80. Bullshit to both your claims.

[Javaman]

129. ...

4. How frequently do cars and trucks rollover?
Though rollovers are relatively rare events, they are particularly deadly when they do occur. Overall, rollover affects about three percent of passenger vehicles involved in crashes, but represents nearly 1/3 of all occupant fatalities each year. For example, in 2001, 10,138 people died in rollover crashes, which represents 32 percent of passenger vehicle occupant deaths for the year.

Sixty-one percent of all occupant fatalities in sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and 45% of pickup truck deaths were the result of a rollover crash. By contrast, 22% of passenger car fatalities in 2002 were the result of a rollover crash. The estimated risk of rollover differs depending on the type of vehicle. 10% of cars and 10% of vans in single vehicle crashes rolled over, compared to 18% of pickup trucks and 27% of SUVs.

http://www.consumersunion.org/rollover/faq.html#4

on edit:

http://cars.about.com/od/safetyfacts/a/roll_results.htm

[CRF450]

140. And most of those people that died in a rollover

Werent wearing a seatbelt. Trucks and SUV's are in a way, much safer because of more mass. But combine a driver who doesn't know how to control a large vehicle plus not wearing a seat belt, they can be very dangerous to the driver and other people around the vehicle.

[bullwinkle428]

107. I've seen several rollovers during this winter, most involving SUVs

and full-size pickups. The latest one - a big-ass Tahoe/Suburban that hit a slick spot on a two-lane I drive to and from work everyday, just this past Thursday.

[Pavulon]

68. Mass. Rollover is always error

driving a vehicle within its limits keeps cg between the wheels. You do not make evasive maneuvers in trucks. You just take the hit.

The same attack could be made against the E320. These cars are much heavier than a honda civic or Hyundai.

In the event of a collision the big mercedes (volvo, bmw 5) will do much better because of better design and more mass.

[Lorien]

69. Hell no. Trucks and SUVs have a much higher mortality rate

in collisions that result in rollovers than sedans for that reason. Truck and SUV drivers are given a false sense of security in their behemoths. Ultimately it ends up being just another case of Darwinism in action.

[Pavulon]

75. I crashed an f-150 work truck

a person failed to yield. They pulled into traffic and I hit them in the rear q panel. 40mph collision. Very dangerous.

Luckily there was no back seat passenger in the car as the left rear was destroyed. Bent the car like pretzel and crushed the passenger space.

The front bumper of the 150 had minor damage. Replaced it for about $200.

If I had yanked the wheel I could have rolled over. By braking and making minor steering change the accident was minimized.

Everyone was ok.

[AZ Criminal JD]

81. I guess that Darwinism is taking a while isn't it?

There is not a higher rate of truck rollovers and there is not a higher rate of mortality. You are just making it up for your fantasy.

[Ikonoklast]

89. Here ya go

SOUTHEAST PICKUP TRUCK – PUBLIC AWARENESS
FACT SHEET & TALKING POINTS
Buckle Up In Your Truck – Safety Belts Save Lives
A Focus on the Southeast U.S.

According to NHTSA, there were 1,677 fatalities from pickup truck crashes in the Southeastern states of the U.S. in 2003. Seventy-one percent of these pickup truck fatalities were not buckled up at the time of the crash.

Roughly 37 percent of these fatalities were involved in a rollover crash.

While rollovers can happen in any passenger vehicle, pickup trucks are twice as likely to rollover as cars, because they have a higher center of gravity. The higher a vehicle’s center of gravity, the easier it is for it to rollover.

Pickup trucks in fatal crashes rollover twice as often as passenger cars.

Even more alarming, the ejection rate for occupants of light trucks in fatal crashes is nearly double the rate for passenger car occupants.

Ejection is the most common source of injuries and fatalities in rollover crashes. The primary defense against ejection is wearing a safety belt.

You increase your odds of survival in a rollover crash by 70% to 80% if you’re wearing your safety belt.

Thousands of lives each year can be saved in rollovers if drivers and passengers wear their safety belts in their trucks.

That is why federal, state and local law enforcement and highway safety partners in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee are joining together to launch an aggressive new public awareness initiative called “Buckle Up In Your Truck.”

The goal is simple: to save more lives by convincing pickup truck drivers and their passengers to always buckle up.

The campaign includes a variety of public awareness and outreach activities including television and radio promotion in targeted markets where pickup truck fatalities have been most prevalent.

The multi-state “Buckle Up in Your Truck’ initiative immediately precedes the intensive Click It or Ticket national safety belt enforcement mobilization set for May 23 to June 5, 2005.

The eight Southeastern states participating in the “Buckle Up In Your Truck” campaign contain approximately 20 percent of the nation’s population but represent approximately 26 percent of the nation’s traffic fatal traffic accidents.

For driving tips on how to avoid rollover crashes and injuries, please visit the web at www.safercar.gov. For more information about the value of always wearing your safety belt, please visit www.buckleupamerica.org.


I'll take the NHTSA statistics over uninformed opinion, any day.

[AZ Criminal JD]

95. You didn't read your sheet apparently.

Most of the deaths were due to not wearing seatbelts. If you wear seatbelts, and I hope everyone does, trucks are inherently safer than cars in equivalent crashes. Trucks are twice as likely to rollover in "fatal accidents". That is a self-fulfilling statistic. They are not twice as likely to rollover than a car in an accident. Just the opposite. But many more people, for whatever reason, don't wear seatbelts in trucks. Uninformed reading of statistics can lead to a hazardous result.

[Ikonoklast]

100. You read it wrong.

The first bold paragraph is an absolute, not abstract, statistic, whether there was a fatality involved or not.

It is followed by the death to accident ratio in those rollover accidents.

The NHTSA has studies that confirm those statistics of a 2:1 ratio of pick-ups vs. passenger cars.

Ask your insurance agent, if you don't believe me. His rates are based on using those very same NHTSA statistics.

Or just use the google. Plenty of evidence of the 2:1 rollover statistic out there.

[AZ Criminal JD]

136. Guess my insurance company is dumb.

I have never paid less insurance than I do now driving a F-150.

[Lorien]

73. Never heard of Peak Oil, have you?

You will.

[AZ Criminal JD]

79. I have heard of it , probably long before you did.

I first heard of it when they said the "peak" was going to be in the early 70s and we would be out of oil by 1985. Another Malthus type theory that is always getting pushed back. Always 10 or 15 years in the future when the people know you will have forgotten the earlier predictions.

[Tyo]

125. You ever consider where much of the oil comes from?

You like having Osama BL sitting in the passenger seat with a big ol' grin on his face every time you fire up that pos? If you've got a crew cab you have room for a couple of Saudi royals too.

[AZ Criminal JD]

133. We get very little oil from the Mideast

Learn the facts. We get imported oil mainly from Mexico, Canada, South America, Russia and the North Sea. OBL not part of that action.

[YankmeCrankme]

130. gotta love this asinine attitude

So, your big truck sits up higher and lets you see more which makes you safer. Unfortunately, it also makes all the other vehicles around you less safe because you block their road visibility.

Glad to see that selfish gene is working so well. Talk about idiots driving, some are even in trucks.

[AZ Criminal JD]

137. You can drive a truck too. Most cars are more expensive than pickups.

So go buy one and be safe too. See - I am not selfish, I want everyone to survive.

[LostinVA]

128. He also laughs at throwing soda cups into fast food drivethrough windows

Just to add some perspective to it.

:eyes:

[AZ Criminal JD]

135. Never done that, but you sound like you have some experience.

[LiberalAndProud]

99. Had you seen this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2940598

Trucks can be handy. Happy for you that the price of gas isn't a problem for you. I still have my truck for the times when I need to move some things around. It is harder to see when closer to the ground, but I'm much happier at the pump in my new Nissan Sentra.

Had to trade in hubby's CR-V for a Versa because we were feeling the pinch at the pump.

Glad you can laugh though, really.

[sellitman]

109. Unless you need it for work you are actng very Republican.

"Its all about me " is a common mantra of the right.

There is a reason they are called "Repiggies"

[B Calm]

117. Your little F-150 looks really small from the windshield of my Freightliner.

I'm not making fun of you, hell I drive a pickup truck too. I need a truck out here in the country to haul firewood, etc. etc. But, if you think you are driving something safe because it's a little bigger, remember your sharing the road with 80,000 pound 18 wheelers that will smash your F-150 just as easy as running over opossums!

[AZ Criminal JD]

138. I know when you are popping pills it is hard to see out the windshield.

But at least you might be able to see a pickup a little better than a shitbox car. But then again maybe I am asking too much.

[workinclasszero]

53. I hear ya!

I laugh at the Earth Destroyer 2 SUV drivers as they speed past me on the freeway. I get 30mpg in my XB and with their leadfeet they are getting like 13 or so if their lucky.

Wait till gas hits 4 plus dollars a gallon this spring they will really be cryin then. But their god GW didn't know anything about it lol.

This is what my ride looks like:

I love my Toaster! :)

[Ishoutandscream2]

92. My aunt in law owns one, and I got to drive it

Absolutely loved it! Handled well, good pickup, and also very comfortable, and I'm 6'2".

People initially called it a "clown car." Now I seem to be seeing more of these. And with the price of gas, you are definitely getting the last laugh.

[ThatsMyBarack]

102. That's a GORGEOUS car!

Can I have it? ;)

[Sherman A1]

121. That is the exact one I bought 1/31/08

After going to the Auto Show here in St. Louis for a final walk around, just to see if I had missed anything in my year long internet research on mileage. In cost vs. benefit, this came out better than a hybrid in my figures. I am getting 34.8 mpg combined right now on my 56 mile round trip commute each day. The savings in gas from my `98 Ranger V6 will pay half of each month's car payment. I suggest the convenience package and all weather package, but everyone has their own needs. Anything I can do to answer a question or two feel free to email me.

It's a great little car....

[TahitiNut]

7. Fuel cost = $205.00 per month

I wonder why they just don't put big signs on the cars advertising the average fuel costs, assuming the current price of gasoline, an average of 15,000 miles per year and the vehicles's combined EPA fuel economy.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

27. now THAT is a heck of an idea

if you buy a refrigerator or a water heater you will see a little sticker advertising approximate annual energy costs for that unit...putting the same thing on a car (with numbers for month AND year as well) could really start to impress on people just how much these guzzlers can be to operate!

GREAT IDEA!
sP

[JVS]

11. You might be interested in knowing that this year the fuel economy measurements are done by a new...

method that yields much lower results. Thus the same car that used to be rated 38 MPG might only be 30 MPG now.

[MorningGlow]

15. Really? I did not know that.

How odd. Thanks for the info--makes me feel a bit better--but even so, we should be doing better than we are.

[WhollyHeretic]

17. This years seems to be fuel economy measurements seem to be too low

My Yaris last year was listed at 34/39 and I got slightly better than that. This year it is listed at 29/35.

[wtmusic]

19. But automakers get to use the old calculation in complying with CAFE

standards. Kinda like lowering the interest rate. "Your dollars are worth less now." 'Kay.

"Calculations of MPG overestimated

The EPA laboratory measurements of MPG have consistently overestimated fuel economy.<47> This results in a shortfall of about 15 percent in actual vs. measured CAFE goals. Starting with vehicles in model year 2008, the EPA is improving their estimates of MPG.<48> This change does not affect CAFE ratings, only Consumer Guide values will change to reflect more realistic fuel efficiencies.<49>

NHTSA spends one-third of one percent of its budget on CAFE."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy#Calculations_of_MPG_overestimated

[CRF450]

22. I call BS on them overestimating mpg.

I'v driven many vehicles and I have yet to drive one that consistantly gets less than city mpg! I drive a 2001 Trans Am WS6, which is rated 19/28, these new EPA numbers have rated my car 17/25. I average around 22mpg, and have reached 31mpg on the interstate. My Dodge Dakota (work truck mainly) is rated 14/18, its averages around 16mpg in town, and has reached 21mpg on the highway. New 08 estimates rate it at 13/17.

I think the EPA needs to get back to the old ratings.

[wtmusic]

26. You are probably a more efficient driver than most Americans

"EPA has changed the way it estimates MPG.

Starting in model year 2008, estimates will reflect the effects of

* Faster Speeds & Acceleration
* Air Conditioner Use
* Colder Outside Temperatures

<>

The actual mileage you get will still vary based on your driving habits, traffic conditions, and other factors."

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

If you don't drive like a bat out of hell (like many do) you will probably regularly beat the new estimates.

[CRF450]

28. Actually, I dont really drive with a light foot.

Higher speeds dont really bother my car since it is very aerodynamic and has a very tall 6th gear, it'll reach 30mpg wheather I'm going 65 or 75mph. Even at 75, the engine is onyl running about 1500rpm. I cant even go into 6th gear untill about 63mph or I'll lugg the engine. One thing about this car, is that it has a shift skip feature, it makes you skip from 1st to 4th gear under light acceleration. But it gets annoying as hell sometimes. I dont know if the Corvettes use this same feature, they do use the same T56 tranny, I believe.

I drive no different with the truck and get the same results against the EPA estimates.

[wtmusic]

38. Hmm.

What do you think their incentive would be to underestimate efficiency? Or is it just bad science?

[CRF450]

51. I feel that the new number are a bit underestimating

And obviously it has some people saying "why cant automakers raise their fule economy instead of lowering it?!". The truth is, they'v mostly stayed the same, and for a given car thats been around for 30+ years they'v slowly gone up in effeciency. Its not so much as cars are getting more powerful, I put most of the blaim on them getting so damn heavy now. The engines themselfs have gotten more powerful and pretty effecient, but the car itself aint helping because they just keep getting heavier and heavier!

The same engine used in the Corvette say, an LS3 which is a 6.2L 436hp v8 could easily get up to 30mpg on the highway, because the Corvette is a lightweight aerodynamic vehicle weighing in at around 3200lbs. The engine is not even breakin a sweat to keep it going. But when you put it in a vehicle that weighs more than twice as much and has the aerodynamics of a brick, the engine will be working alot harder, thus it burns more gas.

[windbreeze]

62. no it isn't bad science....didn't car makers get into hot water for

making statements of higher mpg estimates a car would get, because they couldn't prove that a car would get that mileage on a regular basis, no matter who was driving or what the conditions were?.....Seems to me I recall a flap about it, and how it was then determined that they would have to adjust their mpg estimates to ones that were probable, provable and attainable by anyone and everyone, no matter what the driving conditions might be, rather than what they got under perfect and mechanical conditions...that's why the estimates have been adjusted down...I can't give you any articles, but it's something I recall reading about just a couple years ago..anyone else recall this??? wb

[CRF450]

90. Didn't hear any of that.

I only heard numerous people compaining about the prius getting lower than its estimated mpg.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. My 08 Caliber gets a consistent 30mpg commuting.

The epa sticker said something like 22/28.

[Ilsa]

131. That's interesting.

I drive my vehicle properly, have it serviced regularly, and I usually get close or dead-on the MPG estimates. I guess I'll be even more pleased with my mileage results down the road. Now, we need to get car with good fuel economy. I drive a pig right now, but it is paid for and an older vehicle.

[housewolf]

21. "dark lime green and orange seem to be "in" for '09" - Oh My Gosh!!!

I haven't seen that since the Dodge Chargers disappeared about 35 years ago!

Can't say I'm exactly looking forward to it...

[MorningGlow]

32. The pumpkin orange was a bit easier on the eyes

The dark lime green (apparently key for '09 Jeeps, which dismays me, as I have a Wrangler--crappy mileage, but I bought it in '00 when life was easy) is hideous. It's Ugly Monster Slime color.

[NikolaC]

29. Their Sales Will Continue To Plummet

Most cannot afford the gas prices any more and car sales are going down. You'd think that they would get a clue that this is not working but I guess they, like most corps, don't give a damn.

[MorningGlow]

34. When was it--a few years ago?

That they polled US drivers about cars, and everyone said mileage was most important and many people said they'd buy a hybrid if they could, and shortly thereafter the US car makers all said they were going to continue to produce SUVs instead of hybrids, because "that's what the people want". No clue. None.

[flvegan]

30. Just as an FYI, most "car shows" that showcase *new* cars

are done to roll out the newest models and exotica. IOW, you won't likely see the usual Honda Civic, but you might see a tricked out Si. You won't see the 30+ mpg Mazda 3, but you'll get a view of the Mazdaspeed 3.

Most carmakers don't want to put the "average" cars out there with the Z06 Vettes, Shelby Mustangs and uber performers from Germany and Italy.

Sad but true. It's not an actual reflection of what's out there.

[MorningGlow]

35. You know, we were looking for the funk

We went expecting lots of concept cars, futuristic stuff, and tricked-out models, and instead we saw what you'd see if you compressed a bunch of car showrooms into one building. Another guy struck up a conversation with us and said the same thing, and he said he wished he had saved the programs from the car shows he used to go to when he was younger, because this one wasn't remotely like those. It was disappointing in that regard.

[Book Lover]

58. The industry only blings out a few shows

Detroit, LA, NYC: these are the important US auto shows. All the others are just as you say, a bunch of showrooms in one place.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. I want it all!

I want fuel efficiency AND an MP3 hookup.

:rofl:

[MorningGlow]

36. And will that new vehicle of yours

be in dark lime green or pumpkin orange?
:rofl:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

37. Today, it'll be white

from all the road salt

:rofl:

[MorningGlow]

43. I hear you on that!

I have a Jeep Wrangler, so I can't go through automated car washes (I have the hard top on, and it has vents near the back, so an automated car wash washes the inside as well as the outside). It's white too--it WAS gray. Funny thing is, there's a DIY car wash near my house, and I drove by it the other day and thought, "...Nah...it'll just get all gunked up again in a day or two." Now that's the mindset of a northerner who's given in to winter!
:rofl:

[Pavulon]

39. This comes with a diesel..

a b50 burning 600hp by 600 ft/lbs diesel..I'm in..

[MorningGlow]

40. DH is hoping for one of the new VW diesels

I hear they're still tweaking the design. No sign of them at the show.

[Pavulon]

46. Lots of good diesels..

from jetta to E class. Diesel is way high now. Artificial price, it should drop.

[MorningGlow]

47. We figured even with the high price of diesel

If you can squeeze 45 mpg out of a gallon, it'd be worth it.

[defendandprotect]

41. What's your opinion on the car manufacturers getting kick-backs from the oil industry---????

[MorningGlow]

44. I do smell a rat

I mean, the car makers can't be THAT dense, or THAT mired in the past. They have to know which way people are trending (toward hybrids and fuel efficiency). They have all kinds of marketing gurus to figure that out. I wouldn't be surprised in the least that they'd "share the wealth" in some way with the oil industry. Yeah, I'm a cynic. But it's saved my ass on more than one occasion.

[defendandprotect]

49. Right . . . and they actually took the MPG backwards from where it was in the

60's or 70's . . .

Question is, where do the big wigs keep all this money . . .

I had heard quite a long time ago that a lot of the drug money which makes it way in politicians hands is in Swiss Bank accounts . . .

Which brings up the issue of how big a threat secret bank accounts are to democracy --- ???

[BlooInBloo]

48. Wouldn't surprise me if they only took the sexy cars to those shows.

[MorningGlow]

52. That was the problem

They weren't sexy AT ALL. It was just what you'd see in any dealer's showroom. :shrug:

[pdxmom]

55. I went to the car show here in Portland a few weeks ago and it was

Nissan that hadn't brought any of their hybrids. The salesperson told us that Nissan was going to phase out the hybrids and go with the "clean diesel". Not sure that we believed this was true, but the car companies certainly aren't making any attempt to help with changing to true alternative.

[TheFarseer]

60. I keep seeing MPG decrese for hybrids

why is that? Shouldn't they just get better? And I'm talking about Prius's And now we have Yukon hybrids that get 16 MPG under optimum conditions?!?! WTF is the point of that!?!?! I absolutely can't belive we can't get incremental improvement in gas mileage, but it sure as hell seems like we can't.

[CRF450]

97. Where did you see a Yukon hybrid getting 16mpg??

Their rated up to 21mpg, and someone who actually test drove a Tahoe (same exact vehicle) hybrid got up 26mpg in the city. Thats 10mpg or more than than what the regular gasser model will get.

[TheFarseer]

111. I read that in Consumer Reports magazine

It's on the newsstand right now. They said they drove it around the city and it got just over 16 mpg.

[CRF450]

115. I dont put much trust in Consumer Reports.

Take a look at this article. http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature/first_steer/Motive_First_Drive_2008_Chevrolet_Tahoe_Hybrid.shtml

[taterguy]

66. That's like going to a titty bar if you're offended by the sight of naked breasts

Cars consume gas

Walking or riding a bike does not consume gas.

Try those methods if you're concerned about how much oil we consume.

[MorningGlow]

87. Hey, mister pissypants, way to misunderstand my post

I'm not offended by the fact that cars exist, and I don't expect them to run on air; I was just expecting more fuel efficiency on display than what I saw. The car industry is capable of better; it's just not bothering.

Not like I have to explain my lifestyle to you, but I do walk or ride a bike when I can, but living in a rural area and having to transport a 4-year-old to preschool 20 miles away can be a bit of a challenge on foot.

[taterguy]

101. Hey Miss tight panties you misunderstood my post

Auto-shows are not the place that auto-makers show off how fuel efficient they are.

The target audience is people that want to be dazzled with shiny bells and whistles so they're not going to be plugging their economical vehicles which quite frankly aren't that sexy.

People that are interested in fuel economy will just decide which models to buy by reading Consumer Reports.

[MorningGlow]

103. Not from what I witnessed, Mister Potato Head

All the conversations I overheard were about fuel efficiency--attendees asking the reps, attendees tsk tsking over the mileage on the fact sheets, etc. It was VERY important to the target audience; the auto industry is just too slow to tweak to that fact.

[Exultant Democracy]

71. How can people aford to drive cars with 14-18 MPG, I get 30 town and 40 highway and gas is burdensom

[dysfunctional press]

74. they have more disposable income...?

:shrug:...just a guess.

[AZ Criminal JD]

134. I work. Gas is a minor expense.

[earth mom]

85. Ever see the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

Proof positive that the car makers don't give a damn about the environment or what the people really want.

Meanwhile they are trying or they already have bought off their union employees so they can continue business as usual for half the price.

Disgusting! :puke:

We need Gore now more than ever!!!! :cry:

[MorningGlow]

88. No, I haven't, but I would like to

Even though that kind of doc reaaallly depresses me.

I'm with you on Gore; but I think on a cosmic level he wasn't supposed to be president so he can focus on just this type of thing.

[fishnfla]

86. "the flags fly the highest where the people buy their cars"

myspace lizzie west

[doc03]

96. I was a t the Cleveland Auto Show Friday and

there were lots of hybrids there. Toyota had all their hybrids and one of the salespeople told me Toyota will have all their models available in a hybrid by 2020. Chevy had theirs and Chevy also had a experimental fuel cell vehicle and the Malibu will be out in hybrid this fall. I looked at the Honda Civic and Ford Escape also. What I have read the premium you pay for the hybrid doesn't really translate into savings although it my give you a good feeling to use less gas. Myself I need a new car and I am thinking of a gasoline powered Honda Civic, Mini Cooper or the Scion tc. If I decide to go to a mid-size 6 cyl I like the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan/Lincoln MKZ or a Honda Accord. Consumer reports says to avoid the Camry 6 cyl.

[JPZenger]

113. Horsepower has greatly increased

In the last decade, the horsepower of many cars has rapidly increased. It has negated the technological improvements that should have resulted in better mileage.

[CRF450]

114. Its not so much as horsepower increase thats not increasing fuel milage.

Its because cars are getting way way heavier then they should be! The engines themselfs are getting more powerful and effecient, but as a car gets heavier, it takes away the benefits of said engine being more effecient. The benefits of a powerful engine is that it doesn't have to work very hard at all to get the vehicle moving. Regardless of the amount of horsepower it can achieve, it still wont burn much gas if driven normally in a lightweight vehicle.

[DCKit]

120. The muscle cars of the 60's and 70's had 0-60 times of about 9 seconds...

Nowadays, the econo-boxes do 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds. Yes, the manufacturers are, in fact, putting ever more powerful engines in smaller cars and claiming that Americans demand that power and would not buy their cars otherwise. Passenger vehicles with 1.3 and 1.5 liter engines are common - and in demand - in Europe, but I don't think any gas-only car is marketed in the U.S. with anything smaller than a 1.8 liter engine.

One way for a car with a large engine to get stellar mileage is a six to eight, or even a high-ratio, continuously variable transmissions, which would add to the cost of the end product. It's no wonder cars with five and six speed manual transmissions are always rated with better mileage figures than their four-speed, automatic transmission counterparts. Any engine that has to run at 3,500 rpm to maintain highway speed is going to burn far more gas than one that cruises at 1,500 rpm.

I would also dispute the claim that smaller cars are heavier than ever before. Sure, steel is relatively cheap, but these are companies that source vehicle components based on pennies difference among their suppliers - they're not putting anything into the cars that doesn't need to be there and every pound of steel is there for rigidity and/or crash protection, not because the computers they use to design the frames and bodies haven't reached a pinnacle of development.

Finally, VW has the new diesel engines, but they're not on the market (at all) this year while final approval and testing is finished. They'll be back next year with the 45 mpg diesel Golfs and Jettas.

[doc03]

122. I read recently that it was either the Honda Accord

or the Toyota Camry had 200 more HP than when first introduced in the USA.

[CRF450]

123. Most of the muscle cars of the 60's did 5 second 0-60's

But in the mid 70's when the EPA dropped the hammer on them, they struggled to do 0-60 faster than 9 seconds and couldn't hardly get anymore than 180hp. Your right though about todays econo cars, around half of them or a little less can do 0-60 in around 7 seconds, which is pretty quick but not blazing fast.

I own an 01 Trans Am with a 6 speed tranny, and it is geared really tall! At 65mph its barely runs anymore than 1300rpm, get up to around 80mph and it does hardly anymore than 1500rpm. Now a tall geared tranny like this really makes a big difference on the highways. The T/A has reached 31mpg going 74mph, and in town I barely get anymore than 22mpg. Not many other cars with 6 speed trannies are geared that tall such as a Nissan 350Z or a Toyota Celica, because they have a v6 and a 4cyl engine which doesn't have as much torque compared to the 5.7 v8 in my car.

[B Calm]

116. If Al Gore would have been President the past seven years, we

would all be driving/flying solar powered automobiles by now.

[margotb822]

139. Family Guy?

I saw that one last night. Yes, I bet things would have been better...

[fascisthunter]

127. I Wish My Vehicle Did Better on Gas

right now, I get 32 miles/gallon on HWY and about 30 in the city. The technology is already out there...

[Windex]

141. Speaking of Fuel..

I wonder if we could pass a bill to keep daylight savings time until things improve. It goes into effect March 9. Here is an interesting article I found on it. Towards the bottom of the page you will find this excerpt:

Oil Conservation

Following the 1973 oil embargo, the U.S. Congress extended Daylight Saving Time to 8 months, rather than the normal six months. During that time, the U.S. Department of Transportation found that observing Daylight Saving Time in March and April saved the equivalent in energy of 10,000 barrels of oil each day - a total of 600,000 barrels in each of those two years.
Likewise, in 1986, Daylight Saving Time moved from the last Sunday in April to the first Sunday in April. No change was made to the ending date of the last Sunday in October. Adding the entire month of April to Daylight Saving Time is estimated to save the U.S. about 300,000 barrels of oil each year.

Beginning in 2007, Daylight Saving Time commences on the second Sunday in March and ends on the first Sunday in November, thereby saving even more energy.

And when reading pros and cons on it I found it there is less crime during daylight saving time.

Heres the Link:

http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/k.html