How can Ricin in a Las Vegas hotel room NOT be linked to terrorism?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Can anyone explain? How can such a blanket statement be made?

[Ilsa]

1. Hmm. I guess they assume that All Terrorism is islamic-radical terrorism,

and nothing else counts. Nevermind Timothy McVeigh, etc.

[JerseygirlCT]

2. From what I understand, it's not really a good weapon for

mass use. It needs to be injected, and certainly at that point, is terribly deadly. But it's not easily spread around to large groups of people, making it less useful as a terrorism weapon -- if the goal is killing lots of people.

Now, if the goal is killing one particular (and important?) person, then it would probably work for that.

No chemist here, but that's what I heard explained last night.

[enlightenment]

11. Interesting, since the other day they suggested that

this guy had inhaled the stuff - they used the word "aerosolised".

eh?

[JerseygirlCT]

12. That is interesting...

I heard last night that it needed to be injected.

Guess we'll have to keep digging to get to the truth. Maybe someone here with know!

[Warpy]

16. I see a typical right wing fringe type

who got the stuff from another right wing fringe type and just had to uncap a vial to see what it smelled like.

He did call the ambulance, himself.

[troubleinwinter]

34. It's not a good "mass weapon" to kill thousands, but it's a good terrorist weapon to kill or serious

sicken dozens or a hundreds in a confined area. A subway train is a fairly good target for such a weapon.

It does not need to be injected. It can also be inhaled or ingested.

See post #31.

[Patsy Stone]

3. Read: Not scary Radical Islamofascist Extremist terrorism

But yes, it could be domestic terrorism (or maybe just good old fashioned murder). If it's terrorism, it's the kind people like to keep quiet, because it doesn't further the "they hate us for our freedom" storyline.

ed: clarity.

[ret5hd]

4. When it's somebody that might later be tied to the gov't?

[NanceGreggs]

5. Well, I don't know how often YOU travel, Phoebe ...

... but apparently the average motel guest packs his/her suitcase with the usual fare: clothing, toothbrush, deodorant, comb, hair products, ricin, mouthwash, underwear, and maybe a good book in case there's nothing worth watching on TV.

What's so hard to understand?

[troubleinwinter]

20. He wasn't a traveler. He'd been staying there for a year, at $1,800/mo.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2950953&mesg_id=2951597

[NanceGreggs]

23. WOW - I didn't know that ...

... I guess when he saw the name "Extended Stay Motel", he figured they meant really, really, really extended.

But then that does it explain it - he'd simply packed enough ricin to last his very extended stay. Doesn't everyone? I don't understand why this shouldn't be dismissed by the police as "nothing unusual" - what else could possibly be going on here?

Maybe I should use that :sarcasm: thingy, just to be sure ...

[troubleinwinter]

24. It's just all so strange.

He crashed with his cousin & wife at their home in Utah. Then stayed awhile in a neighbor's trailer on the property. Then a year in LV at $1,800 per month. Utah neighbor doesn't know anything about him working or not.

Nobody says "in Las Vegas he worked as an office machine repairman" or "insurance salesman" or anything at all. You'd think a person could find a little apartment for less money.

[NanceGreggs]

25. I've been totally out of the loop ...

... on this story since it broke yesterday. And that's some seriously weird shit going on there.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

6. What a good question.

The conservative view might be that less government means not taking the time to investigate whether ricin in a Las Vegas hotel room leaving 8 people hospitalized, and one in a coma, could possibly be an act of terroism.

[FightingIrish]

7. A creepy white guy with WMD is not sufficiently frightening

to serve our national leadership. Maybe if his middle name was Hussein...

[malaise]

8. No beards

no dark hair in the room..no brown people :shrug:

[uppityperson]

9. That is a good question. eom

[AntiFascist]

10. When domestic right-wingers are responsible....

it's just politics as usual. Whatever became of the anthrax investigations?

[angrycarpenter]

13. Just wait until the democrats start looking at domestic terrorism.

There are a hundred potential Wacos out there and a thousand Ruby ridges. When a new justice department or ATF starts to do their jobs I think that they will find a country filled with armed camps and people who will have no problem blowing up any federal building. It's already starting and the new administration is not even in yet.

[u4ic]

14. Perhaps it's about the $$$

Everything in that town is. I mean, of course, tourist $$$.

Wouldn't that affect the tourism industry, that Vegas might be a target?

[Warpy]

15. And why are they being nonspecific about that "anarchist booklet?"

Do I dare hazard a guess that it's a tract from one of the right wing fringe outfits? Poisoning the salad bar in Sin City seems right up their alley. Anarchists are more likely to blow up unoccupied buildings and equipment. The right wing does more crimes against people.

[Crabby Appleton]

17. I heard it was the Anarchist Cookbook

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook

not sure which version.

[Warpy]

18. Where did you hear this?

Was it on any mainstream news source?

Everything I've read has been very nonspecific.

And yes, I have my own copy buried on a spare hard drive.

[tyedyeto]

19. In the same way that the McVeigh et al bombing wasn't "terrorist"

In the same way that any abortion terrorist isn't a true terrorist.

What white person who has ever advocated a terrorist act ever been subjected to what our government calls a 'terrorist' act?

[McCamy Taylor]

21. Hiding from mob? Might be why he had his pets with him. Gun for protection.

Making ricin to kill whoever wanted him dead.

Many non-terrorist possibilities.

[LeftyMom]

22. Presumably they have a good idea of another purpose (contract killing?)

that would rule out terrorism.

[alfredo]

26. A revenge killing of fellow employees, ex wife and boyfriend, or to

teach a lesson to a casino. We won't know for sure until word leaks out.

[LeftyMom]

27. I'm really curious. I stayed at that hotel a few months ago.

[alfredo]

28. whatever it was, he was up to no good.

[AZ Criminal JD]

29. Ricin is not a terrorist tool. It is used to kill individuals.

[troubleinwinter]

31. That is not correct.

The United States investigated ricin for its military potential during the First World War. At that time it was being considered for use either as a toxic dust or as a coating for bullets and shrapnel. The dust cloud concept could not be adequately developed, and the coated bullet/shrapnel concept would violate the Hague Convention of 1899. The war ended before it was weaponized.

During the Second World War the United States and Canada undertook studying ricin in cluster bombs. Though there were plans for mass production and several field trials with different bomblet concepts, the end conclusion was that it was no more economical than using phosgene.

Jan van Aken, an expert on biological weapons explained in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel that he judges it rather reassuring that Al Qaeda experimented with ricin as it suggests their inability to produce botulin or anthrax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricin

Iraq, also a signatory of the Bioweapons Convention of 1972, admitted in 1991, that they had conducted research into the offensive use of Bacillus anthracis, botulinum toxins, and Clostridium perfringens (presumably one of its toxins). It was further discovered that they had also worked on development of aflatoxins, wheat cover smut, and ricin. Biological agents were tested in various delivery systems, including rockets, aerial bombs, and spray tanks.
http://www.azdhs.gov/phs/edc/edrp/es/bthistor2.htm

Minnesota Patriots Council
The group extracted ricin from castor beans obtained through mail order. They planned to disseminate the agent as an aerosol but were arrested after the FBI had penetrated the group and learned of the plan.
Two members of the group, Doug Baker and Charles Wheeler, were the first individuals to be indicted and convicted under the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989.

LONDON, England -- Ricin has been developed as a weapon for the best part of 100 years.

The U.S. Chemical Warfare Service began studying the poison as a potential weapon of war during World War I.

During World War II, a ricin bomb was developed by the British military at the top-secret Porton Down biological weapons establishment in Wiltshire, western England.

Ricin was then code-named Compound W. The weapon, dubbed the W-bomb, was tested but never used on soldiers or civilians.

More recently, the toxin has found its way into the arsenals of extremist individuals, groups and governments.

Plans by the al Qaeda terror network to produce ricin were found in the Afghan capital, Kabul, in November 2001.

Iraq is also known to have included ricin in its biological weapons programme.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/07/terror.poison.extremists/index.html

In recent years various radicals or extremist groups have been caught with ricin or castor beans in their possession. Al Qaeda was said to possess quantities of ricin, and Iraq, according to the weapons inspector David Kay, was continuing to work on ricin, although United Nations inspectors found no actual weaponization of the poison.

In January (2003), the FBI told police to beware of possible attacks using ricin, a toxic substance derived from the castor bean plant. That warning followed the arrests last year in Britain of 11 North African men on terrorism charges stemming from an alleged attempt to develop a ricin weapon.

It IS regarded as a terrorist weapon, and quite a few people are sitting in prison today for making and/or posessing ricin as a violation of the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989.

It is a concern because it is easy to make and castor beans are readily available.

[troubleinwinter]

33. Because it IS very much regarded as a terrorist weapon, and every little crackpot

extremist group and extremist individual seem to like to make ricin, you have to wonder WHY the determination was made that this 'loner' was not a terrorist and not a suspect?

Letter With Ricin Vial Sent To White House

The U.S. Secret Service intercepted a letter addressed to the White House in November that contained a vial of the toxin ricin, but never revealed the incident publicly and delayed telling the FBI and other agencies, law enforcement sources said yesterday.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8403-2004Feb3?language=printer

2003 White House mail
Ricin was detected in the mail at the White House in Washington, D.C. in November 2003. The letter containing it was intercepted at a mail handling facility off the grounds of the White House, and it never reached its intended destination. The letter contained a fine powdery substance that later tested positive for ricin. Investigators said it was low potency and was not considered a health risk. This information was not made public until February 3, 2004, when preliminary tests showed the presence of ricin in an office mailroom of U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist's office. There were no signs that anyone who was near the contaminated area developed any medical problems. Several Senate office buildings were closed as a precaution.

The discovery of ricin on a mail-opening machine closed three Senate office buildings in early February, 2004. Although no illnesses or deaths resulted, using ricin as a bioterrorist weapon in the workplace remains a serious threat. The following references aid in recognizing disease characteristics and hazards associated with ricin.

• Two tax protestors were convicted in 1995 under the Anti-Terrorism Act for possessing ricin as a biological weapon.
  
  
• A retired electrician was arrested in 1995 under the Anti-Terrorism Act for posessing castor beans. Two years before, a large quantity of ricin toxin, weapons, ammunition, and gold were found in his car by Canadian customs officials as he crossed the border from Alaska to Canada.
  
  
• In October, 2003, an envelope with a threatening note and a sealed container with ricin was discovered at a mail processing and distribution facility in Greenville, South Carolina. No ricin-associated illnesses were identified as a result of the incident.
  
  http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/ricin/recognition.html

[AZ Criminal JD]

37. It is correct

Ricin may be a fantasy weapon for some groups and individuals because it can be easy to make but it is not a practical weapon. That is why none of your stories list any terrorist act killing people. It is hard to distribute except to an individual. I don't know anyone in prison for this so I dispute that "quite a few people are sitting in prison."

[troubleinwinter]

38. "I don't know anyone in prison for this" I should hope not. Merely because you don't know them

doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't know the Queeen of England, but she exists.

Here are a couple:

Because of its ease of production and high toxicity, ricin has found its way into the arsenals of extremist individuals, groups and governments. Iraq is known to have ricin as part of its biological weapons program, and it is believed that at least one group linked to the terrorist organization al-Qaeda also has experimented with the poison as a weapon. Domestically, several individuals have been arrested and convicted of ricin possession in recent years under the 1989 Biological Weapons Anti terrorism Act. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/09/020909065008.htm

Minnesota Patriots Council
The group extracted ricin from castor beans obtained through mail order. They planned to disseminate the agent as an aerosol but were arrested after the FBI had penetrated the group and learned of the plan.
Two members of the group, Doug Baker and Charles Wheeler, were the first individuals to be indicted and convicted under the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989.

Two tax protestors were convicted in 1995 under the Anti-Terrorism Act for possessing ricin as a biological weapon.

A retired electrician was arrested in 1995 under the Anti-Terrorism Act for posessing castor beans. Two years before, a large quantity of ricin toxin, weapons, ammunition, and gold were found in his car by Canadian customs officials as he crossed the border from Alaska to Canada.

In 1997, Thomas Leahy was arrested for shooting his stepson in the face. In thebasement of Leahy's home was a makeshift laboratory where, tests indicated, he hadproduced ricin. Leahy pleaded guilty to violating the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Statute.

Steven Ekberg

An anonymous phone call was made to 911 claiming that Steven Ekberg possessed an arsenal of firearms, including machine guns, and a box of poisons, including ricin. The caller stated that he used to be Ekberg’s roommate and that he saw the items several months before the day he called 911. Since then, Ekberg had moved back to his mother’s home. The caller stated that Ekberg said he would use the firearms and poison “if, like, the government ever, like, tried to screw him over.”

Ekberg was arrested and indicted on one count of the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act. On May 3, 2005, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 26 months in a federal prison.

On March 10, 2004, FBI agents executing a search warrant on a Maryland home for an extortion/computer intrusion investigation discovered ingredients that could be used to produce the deadly biological toxin ricin and other potential weapons of mass destruction.

Among the items found were castor beans, laboratory glassware, numerous chemical reagents, unidentified liquids, crystalline solids, electrical components, and inert hand grenades.

Myron Tereshchuk, who lived in the house, was arrested and admitted to initiating the process of ricin production. A copy of the U.S. patent for ricin production was found on Tereshchuk. Laboratory analysis identified the liquids and solids to be ricin, nicotine sulfate (a chemical used in pesticides), and explosive powder. Also found in the house were incendiary explosive devices, including practice grenade bodies that had been modified to hold explosive powder.

On May 13, 2005, Tereshchuk pled guilty to possession of a biological weapon and possession of explosives. He was sentenced to three years and five months in prison for each charge. He was additionally sentenced to three years of supervised release. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/wmd_cases.htm

In2002, Kenneth Olson was arrested for producing small amounts of ricin.16He wasfound guilty of possession of a biological agent or toxin for use as a weapon, andsentenced to 13 years imprisonment. In 2002, Kenneth Olson was arrested for producingsmall amounts of ricin. He was found guilty of possession of a biological agent or toxin for use as a weapon, and sentenced to 13 years imprisonment.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:LUMyiA6AdJ8J:www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21383.pdf+Biological+Weapons+Anti-Terrorism+Act+ricin+convicted&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

In November 1999, press reports indicated that FBI agents had apprehended a man in Tampa, Florida, for threatening to kill court officials and "wage biological warfare" in Jefferson County, Colorado. James Kenneth Gluck, 53, a former Colorado resident, sent a 10-page letter to Jefferson County judges threatening to kill them with a biological agent. He specifically identified one judge by name. FBI agents arrested Gluck on 5 November 1999 as he left a public library near his home in Tampa. Police, fire, and hazardous materials (HazMat) crews responded to the scene along with the
FBI and blocked off Gluck's street. Upon searching his residence the next
day, agents discovered that Gluck had the necessary ingredients to make
ricin, though no refined ricin was actually found. They also found test
tubes and beakers, as well as the "anarchist's cookbook" and books on
biological toxicology, in a makeshift laboratory in his home.
http://vets4politics.blogspot.com/2008/03/ricin.html

If you want more, you can use Google yourself.

[troubleinwinter]

39. You can "dispute" it if you like, but it would be helpful to provide backup. I have, you have not.

Canada, Iraq, U.K. and the U.S. seem to have viewed it as a practical weapon. (see post #31).

"Ricin has been developed as a weapon for the best part of 100 years."

It was one of the excuses used for attacking Iraq.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell Addresses the U.N. Security Council- Feb. 2003

"We know from Iraq's past admissions that it has successfully weaponized not only anthrax, but also other biological agents, including botulinum toxin, aflatoxin and ricin.

The network is teaching its operatives how to produce ricin and other poisons. Let me remind you how ricin works. Less than a pinch--image a pinch of salt--less than a pinch of ricin, eating just this amount in your food, would cause shock followed by circulatory failure. Death comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure. It is fatal."

[AZ Criminal JD]

40. Ricin is not practical for use as a mass terrorist weapon.

If it was it would have been used by now. You have not provided one example where it was. The examples you have given are lone nuts or people who had an intent to kill a specific person. Just as I had said. I don't regard those people as mass terrorists. Just because al-Qaeda or some other group has "experimented" with ricin only proves it doesn't work since they haven't used it even though they would have had ample opportunities.

[leftofthedial]

30. the comatose guy isn't brown-skinned

nothing to see here


move along

[angstlessk]

32. cause he is a white guy?...that is my guess? n/t

[eppur_se_muova]

35. The same way 100 vanished H1-B workers "do not pose a security threat"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2797750&mesg_id=2797750

[troubleinwinter]

36. What an amazing story. I had not seen that. Thanks. Hope the workers are safe. ????