Ayn Rand, Student-Led Learning, and D.U.

[otherlander]

On a thread here a couple of months ago, a bunch of DUer's were talking about education and the theories of Maria Montessori came up. The thread was criticizing modern education on the grounds that it taught kids to function as cogs in a machine rather than as individuals and discouraged their natural curiosity/desire to learn things. When someone brought up the Montessori method, people seemed to agree that it was a better method of education because it let children direct their own learning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_school
That was the first time I'd ever heard of the Montessori method. I looked it up on Wikipedia, followed the links at the bottom of the page, and read more about it. Some of it reminded me of freeschools/Sudbury schools, which I kind of informally did some research on a couple of years ago. The biggest difference I noticed was that Montessori schools separated people by age group, and Sudbury schools mixed students of all ages. But they both seemed non-authoritarian and driven by kids' curiosity, instead of a forced curriculum. Awesome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
I think the coolest-sounding fact I read about the Montessori schools was how they tried to have all the classroom materials made out of natural stuff like wood and glass, instead of plastic. But then there was something else I read that I wanted to ask you guys about. This is from the Wikipedia article, but I verified it on some other websites, too:

(Maria Montessori's) teaching strategies have also been praised by philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand, who considered Montessori's methods, and their revival in the United States in the 60s, as a more individualistic and reason-based alternative to what she saw as the shortcomings of progressive education.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Montessori

I guess it makes sense. Ayn Rand was individualistic. We're pretty individualistic. But Rand was into individualism in a scary, cutthroat, capitalist kind of way. And from the opinions I've read here- about healthcare, about everything- we're the exact opposite of that. No matter how much we scream at each other, it still seems that almost every person on DU wants a society where people actually take care of each other. So help me understand this- How do we like the same educational model as Ayn Rand? It was Rand's mistake (I think) to believe that individualism and cooperation were enemies of each other. Maybe I already know the answer but just don't know how to say it? Be patient, guys; I'm not as old or as educated as most of you.

[I work for workers]

1. Don't sweat it.

If you do, your falling into a logical fallacy. There is no reason to dislike something good because someone bad is somehow associated with it. After all, even GWB likes vacation time...

[BeatleBoot]

2. I don't think that Objectivists believe Individualism and Cooperation are in Conflict.

They believe in rational selfishness - not irrational selfishness.

Let me clarify.

Rational Selfishness means one will take care of one's own self, but not at anyone else's expense.(ex earn a wage and feed themselves)

Irrational Selfishness means you'll take care of yourself at someone else's expense (ex: stealing money from your neighbor is irrational selfishness).

Therefore, to be Rationally Selfish, you need to cooperate with others to make the mutual trade off (trade or barter services to feed one's own self).

Therefore, to be Irrationally Selfish, you would need to be uncooperatve with someone (ex steal from them, take something at someone else's expense).



Do I sound like a Robot Now?

[otherlander]

11. You don't sound like a robot, but...

the idea behind Anthem seemed to be that having a common good would create a society where people weren't supposed to exist as individuals.

Which is ridiculous.

[BeatleBoot]

18. It's defintely not practical

Roads, Police and Fire these are all things that are common to us - that we all use and are essential to a society.

Privatizing these things make no sense.

Individuals all exist and they exist within the framework of a society.

While I agree that sacrificing the individual for the common good is wrong, I think Ayn Rand took it way over the top.

Not an Objectivist by any means, but I have studied it through her and Leonard Piekhoff's (spelling mine) books.

You can count me in as a Democrat who loves the U.S. Constitution and my country (without a Flag Lapel Pin).

[LeftyMom]

3. Montessori has some authoritarian tendencies.

The main thing that I find objectionable about it is that there is one way to use, and one thing to learn from each "apparatus" or whatever the hell their word for a fancy montessori learning toy is.

As an unschooler (think Sudbury at home) the idea of limiting a child's interaction with a safe object seems like a barrier to learning.

[otherlander]

14. Ok, that makes sense

but her system still seems less authoritarian than your average public school.

BTW, are Sudbury schools considered a type of freeschool?

[kath]

16. yes, only one right way to use her materials. Also, MM was against pretend play -

which is a bullshit approach - dramatic (AKA pretend) play is extremely important in the development of young children. Modern day Montessori schools have softened in their approach re imaginative play, but Maria M. was against it.

[KoKo]

4. Montesorri Schools were a BIG DEAL for Progressive Parents in the 70's...

Here are some links from Google.. For more just Google: "Montesorri Schools in the 70's"

The Reform of Urban Schools. Schools for the 70's, Preliminary Series.
Schools for the 70's, Preliminary Series. Authors: Fantini, Mario D. ... and choice so far available mainly to students attending private schools. ...
www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/recordDetail?accno=ED047042 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Berkeley Parents Network: Financial Aid for Private K-12 Schools
... how I remembered feeling in the berkeley public schools, back in the 70's, .... You know, some of the Montessori schools offer scholarships of various ...
parents.berkeley.edu/recommend/schools/financialaid.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Public or Private schools: What do you think? - ParentDish
... people with disabilities were not invited to stay in public schools until the 70's. But...all of that aside, my daughter goes to a Montessori toddler ...
www.parentdish.com/2006/09/14/public-or-private-schools-what-do-you-think/ - 104k - Cached - Similar pages

New private Carlsbad school to open next week - North County Times ...
Pretty clear what has happened to our schools. MASS INVASION anyone?? I grew up here and went to public schools in the 60's and 70's. No problem then ! ...

www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/03/news/coastal/2_03_329_2_07.txt - 72k - Cached - Similar pages

[housewolf]

5. Ayn Rand's ideology most closely resembles Libertarianism

Some Libertarians are also Randian Objectivists. Many Libertarians are fiscal conservatives and socal liberals and there are many points of commonality. Education and freedom of expression can transcend ideology.

[OHdem10]

6. The problem I have with Rand: Alturism is evil.

Selfishness is a virtue. God forbid--the idea of a common good.

[BeatleBoot]

9. They Consider Altruism to not be Rational Selfishness

Which it isn't. If anything Altruism considers or entertains more irrationally selfish behavior.

For example, Altruism would allow someone stealing from you without any consequences.


On Edit:

I see your post must be referring to her book, The Virtue of Selfishness.

In the introduction, she discusses rational and irrational selfishness and how she took flack for the title.

[snot]

7. Very few people, and very few people's ideas, are all good or all bad.

that's what makes life challenging, fun at least potentially, and meaningful.

I certainly hope the good gets picked out of my own ideas/effects from the bad.

[Recursion]

8. I went to a Montessori school. I don't see how Rand would have liked them

Part of the whole ethos was to downplay individual achievement and stress being part of a community that learns as a whole.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Only idiots think Rand had anything worth saying.

[mike_c]

12. good gawd that's the LAST thing I'd worry about....

My daughter did several years in Montessori schools, transitioning to home schooling when the local Montessori school ran out of age groups (basically at middle school level). Anyway, Montessori school prepared her for almost completely self directed home schooling through high school. She has her BS now and is teaching in a Head Start program. I can't praise Montessori schools enough. I do think the value of each individual school is independent of others, i.e. there are great Montessori schools and less great ones, but the couple that my daughter experienced were awesome for her. Her mother and I were struggling students ourselves at the time, and it was hard keeping her in Montessori school, but worth every dime, I think.

[otherlander]

15. Cool.

[Warpy]

13. It just shows that old Ayn didn't understand the Montessori

method any better than she understood either economics or human nature.

At least the old bag was consistent.

[The Straight Story]

17. Well, ask yourself this:

If a bunch of people who are individuals and practice individualism come together and decide that they have similar goals and dreams, and then form those ideas into a government to better use their resources for a common goal - what do you call it?

A democracy/republic/government.

The problem comes in when people born into that government are also very individualistic and want to have more freedoms than the people before them - which some might call being progressive.

The ebb and flow from generation to generation is possible in a structured environment if you allow each to modify the conditions set down in the created society.

Some are more free now (women and other minorities) than before, but in some ways we are also less free now as a whole than before (more and more laws limiting individual freedom, while other laws insure more freedom for those who were oppressed before).