Who has been hit across the face with the AT WILL CLAUSE !

[blues90]

I do realize the damn fool thing has been around for a long time however in all the years I have worked my ass off not one employer ever used it .

Hell I wasn't even aware of it of it's meaning until 1999 when I became a manager of the service dept of a large ford dealership . It was part of the employee handbook that was was required to understand .

Even with that I payed no attention to it because i have never seen it used or put into action .

Employers always gave an employee a 90 probation period and then you were ready for benefits and a employee . They always wrote up any employee and warned them of issues giving then at least three chances to address the issue .

I was fired after 12 years and I never had an issue or warning or even a file with any complaint . This is where I discovered the at will clause was at work against me . There were a few changes to at will , they involved sexual harrassment and race discrimination . This ruled me out since I am a white male .

What happened to me was one 2 year employee was in think with a new general manager which I was not aware of since I was there to do my job and doing my job was not in my mind to deal with inside gossip or who was buddies with whom .

It would made little difference even if I were aware , but he wanted my job and he gave his 2 weeks notice and the very day that would be his last was the day they fired me .

I new many customers who told me about how they lost over time and how they got 4 sick days per year and if they went past the 4 days they lost vacation days . We had the same deal that seemed to come out of the yellow tinted smog filled thin air .

They also reduced the number of employees in the small office I worked out of . My job was to train new techs and deal with customer concerns on repairs that either were done wrong or were termed no problem found as well as to call ford engineers and figure out what a problem may be with issue (say engine quits) I would gather the info , verify the concern , get any and all info as to when this happened through talking to the customer and so on and on .

However I ended up with me and the service phone operator and I was required to do the 8 other jobs that were dealt with in the office I worked out of and one was quality control and assistent service manager and others which I knew well but they added to my work load .

The point being and my question , who has dealt with this . My issue is dead since this was the end of the year 2004 . Who has been hot wioth the at will clause and ended up without a job and no way to even get the chnce to speak to the owner who made the final decision . He would not even talk to me where all others who have thick files got more than their share of chances and i was never told why I was fired other than to be told , some things are not tolerated here , what ever they may have been , i could never figure out what I did because i had no complaints and all I wanted was to know what it was and be able to iron it out . They only said it was a customer complaint and I deal with all service customer complaints so I would have known if there was something wrong there .

This was three years ago and still I bugs me to no end . I had perfect record and the service dept's performance is judged on scores generated through surveys mailed to customers . When i took the position the score was 20 tops , in my first month I had it up to 89 and never below this and many times my score was in the top ten % of all the dealers in the region at 92 to 95 % out of 100 % . This last part is really not important , it's just part of my hard work that seemed in the end not to matter , what mattered was who's your buddy . By the way they laid off 9 other people two weeks after me , not fired but laid off and a year after I was fired the very general manager who got me fired for his own buddy favor was fired for touching the younger female workers in the front sales office , you know like walking up and hugging them close and I could tell they did not want this .

[meegbear]

1. I've heard of it, but never heard of it in action

[raccoon]

2. I think most states now have this "at will" crap.

It really bites.

I encourage anybody who moves to another city or state for a job think long and hard before doing so, because of this.

[blues90]

3. If I recall there are only 2 states without this abomination . nt

[Rex]

4. Sounds like you left a job that had a really bad boss.

I've been there. It sucks. :(

[independentpiney]

5. I think all non-union private employment is 'at will'

so whatever government mandated or written company poicies for sick days, overtime etc. the employer may have can still be circumvented. I was never hit with it myself, but I worked for a few non-union construction companies that essentially had zero tolerance for abenteeism/tardiness for their basic laborers and saw it used regularly.

[Lex]

6. state employees and federal employees are usually not "at will"

nor are those working under contracts with their employers when those contracts confer rights on them over-and-above "at will."

Anyone else is pretty much "at will" which means the employer can fire you with or without cause as long as it's not due to a protected status (one's race, religion, etc.)

[independentpiney]

7. But can't the 'at will' clause be used as an escape clause

by the employer regardless of any rights conferred by written contract over and above 'at will? All the employer has to do is say they are firing the employee for other reasons.

[Igel]

30. No, not necessarily.

The contract waives your rights and the employer's rights. He may have the right to fire you if you're an at-will employee, but the contract can impose restrictions and limitations on his rights.

The "other reasons" are usually outlined in gory detail in a good contract, and have to be followed (otherwise the employer's setting himself up for a lawsuit).

[raccoon]

8. State employees--not sure but I think if you live in a "right-to-work" state

they may be at will too. Especially if they haven't been in a position very long.

[Lex]

9. nope, NC state employees are not "at will"

although NC is a "right to work" state

[raccoon]

10. Not sure about SC though. Especially when person is on probation,

I mean, have on the job less then 6 months.

[Lex]

13. Yes, the probabion period is a different matter

and is probably strictly at will.

[Romulox]

21. Nope. Anyone with a written employment contract, for instance, is probably a "just-cause" employee.

[raccoon]

11. I am real sorry this happened to you, Blues.

Whoever said, it's dog-eat-dog out there, it's a jungle out there, said it right.

Anybody who doesn't know that is very sheltered.

Another thing, even if one were lucky enough to be somewhere they didn't have "at will" employment, they can make your life miserable enough to make you leave. Good luck with any legal action against them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

12. As much as what happend to you stinks..

At will creates a level playing field..

I left my last job with no warning... The VP decided to throw his weight around and had a closed door meeting with me and an HR rep (read, trying to intimidate me) because I would not let crap code go by. The next day put out my resume and had a job lined up a couple of weeks later...

I walked into the office one day and said 'Im done, I have another job and Ill be leaving after two weeks' (2 weeks is more courtesy than he deserved). I was, of course, given a two week vacation ..

Point is if an employee can end the relationship with no notice and for any reason why should an employer not have that right?

[blues90]

15. Usually now days if you do give the 2 week notice

Most employees are asked to leave that day , I saw this happen in many cases .

Also one employee leaving will not destroy a company but getting fired without a fair chance does destroy an employees life when they had no job lined up and the type of job they had like mine has become next to impossible to find again since the auto industry is in trouble .

If ones performance accounts for nothing then what happens to the quality of work . People now complain about all sorts of customer service activity , this is the result .

It is in no way a level playing field .

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

16. Works both ways

"Also one employee leaving will not destroy a company but getting fired without a fair chance does destroy an employees life when they had no job lined up and the type of job they had like mine has become next to impossible to find again since the auto industry is in trouble"

While that is true I have seen projects and whole teams more than decimated by the loss of one key person. In fact its has cause severe problems for an entire department.

[blues90]

18. Then if this is the case and it can cause an issue as you say

I have a solution , get rid of the damn at will and give these key employees a contract .

Most places of employment one employee leaving will not sink the ship and if it could then the company is not run very well , they should cover their own ass and have an employee trained to take over just in case say someone dies on their way to work .

so the argument is empty . at will is a way around tossing anyone out and bringing ones best friend or golfing buddy in .

What do you think it does to someone like me who put 12 years into a place to be tossed out like so much garbage without even so much as a chance to talk to anyone about the issue as to why I was fired . If they had good reason then they would have talked to me , no they did it out of shear ignorance and this is why they refused to talk to me .

I wish ill on the employer .

I will never again trust an employer or will I ever be dedicated , I will just work for the buck and screw honesty and all else , I find these sorts of employees all over the place .

Obviously you have never gone through this crap , or you are an employer .

People wonder why some fired long term employee walks in with gun when they have been erased for no good reason .

That's ok though because the way things are going in the long run employers are getting exactly what they have set things up to be and they too will lose their entire company over it when things dry up .

Most are nothing but small ideals of the huge corporations with the same mentality playing god with peoples lifes . Difference is they don't have the same protection as the big guys .

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. Why?

"I have a solution , get rid of the damn at will and give these key employees a contract . "

And what would be the penalty for someone up and deciding to leave for another job with no notice. It takes 6-9 months to completely break in a new IT guy..

[blues90]

20. the contract binds the both

What is the penalty for firing someone without good reason ?

You have got to be an employer , no doubt about it . Or you work for a relative or don't work at all .

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

23. Youre avoiding the point

What do you think a reasonable punishment might be for someone terminating the relationship to go off to a better job offer?

--

As to me: Im not an employer I don't work for a relative, and I work 60 hours a week to provide for my family..

IT Engineer working for a large corporation more than a thousand miles from my nearest relative...

[blues90]

28. I don't know , why don't you tell me since you left a job

for a better one without notice . I did not leave , it's different all together .

I don't really understand why you take the side of the employer when the fact is you are the one who actually create the situation by not at least following age old common curtesy rules of giving two weeks notice .

I don't follow your motive or point here . do you hold guilt for quitting without notice ? Is this why you continue to bring up punishment ?

I worked 80 hours a week with extra work pushed on me for no extra income and I did not quit simply because I needed the job and was there for so long . I got my un-deserved punishment and what punishment did my employer endure ?

[independentpiney]

26. He's not necessarily an employer

But states he's in IT and infers that he was able to find a comparable or better job within weeks, and before he gave notice. IT was an employees market for years , and because of that tends to provide better employee compensation, benefits and work environments than most other sectors. His experience and perspective is based on that, and not typical for most of us proles.

[independentpiney]

17. I don't know if it creates a level playing field

You felt the need to give him the courtesy of 2 weeks notice (even though he didn't deserve it), in part because not to do so could haunt your future employment prospects. An asshole boss under at will can fire you on the spot-no notice,no severence,and no accrued vacation unless you can afford to take it to court.

[Romulox]

22. The playing field between employers and employees is patently NOT "level"

So your "level playing field" theory rapidly breaks down.

For example, employers do not have children to feed...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

24. Really?

I know managers who have lost their jobs because key people left (thus destroying most projects in the pipe) those managers had kids to feed..

[Romulox]

25. Except that managers are EMPLOYEES, not employers

Moreover, managers are presumed to be at-will employees, just like the people they manage.

Just a subtle little twist...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

27. Managers AVP's, ....

Who is not an employee?

[slackmaster]

14. I got smacked hard in December 1981 and have never trusted an employer since then

There is no such thing as job security.

On the other hand, I've never felt that I owed loyalty to an employer.

[lonestarnot]

29. Right to work states, at will, wrong color tie, YOU're FIAD!

End of story. But you cannot be fiad for an illegal reason ie discrimination, and I'm no lawyer. :toast: