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So, what do you all think of Thomas Szasz (summary below)

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 04:42 PM
Original message
So, what do you all think of Thomas Szasz (summary below)
* The myth of mental illness: It is a medical metaphor to describe a behavioral disorder, such as schizophrenia, as an "illness" or "disease". Szasz wrote: "If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic."<3> While people behave and think in ways that are very disturbing, this does not mean they have a disease. To Szasz, people with mental illness have a "fake disease," and these "scientific categories" are in fact used for power controls. Schizophrenia is "the sacred symbol of psychiatry". To be a true disease, the entity must somehow be capable of being approached, measured, or tested in scientific fashion. According to Szasz, disease must be found on the autopsy table and meet pathological definition instead of being voted into existence by members of the American Psychiatric Association. Mental illnesses are "like a" disease, argues Szasz, putting mental illness in a semantic metaphorical language arts category. Psychiatry is a pseudo-science that parodies medicine by using medical sounding words invented over the last 100 years. To be clear, heart break and heart attack belong to two completely different categories. Psychiatrists are but "soul doctors", the successors of priests, who deal with the spiritual "problems in living" that have troubled people forever. Psychiatry, through various Mental Health Acts has become the secular state religion according to Thomas Szasz. It is a social control system, which disguises itself under the claims of scientificity. The notion that biological psychiatry is a real science or a genuine branch of medicine has been challenged by other critics as well, such as Michel Foucault in Madness and Civilization (1961).

* Separation of psychiatry and the state: State government by enforcing the use of shock therapy has abused Psychiatry with impunity.<4> If we accept that "mental illness" is a euphemism for behaviours that are disapproved of, then the state has no right to force psychiatric "treatment" on these individuals. Similarly, the state should not be able to interfere in mental health practices between consenting adults (for example, by legally controlling the supply of psychotropic drugs or psychiatric medication). The medicalization of government produces a "therapeutic state," designating someone as "insane" or as a "drug addict". In Ceremonial Chemistry (1973), he argued that the same persecution which has targeted witches, Jews, Gypsies or homosexuals now targets "drug addicts" and "insane" people. Szasz argued that all these categories of people were taken as scapegoats of the community in ritual ceremonies. To underscore this continuation of religion through medicine, he even takes as example obesity: instead of concentrating on junk food (ill-nutrition), physicians denounced hypernutrition. According to Szasz, despite their scientific appearance, the diets imposed were a moral substitute to the former fasts, and the social injunction not to be overweight is to be considered as a moral order, not as a scientific advice as it claims to be. As with those thought bad (insane people), those who took the wrong drugs (drug-addicts), medicine created a category for those who had the wrong weight (obeses). Szasz argued that psychiatrics was created in the 17th century to study and control those who erred from the medical norms of social behavior; a new specialisation, "drogophobia", was created in the 20th century to study and control those who erred from the medical norms of drug consumption; and then, in the 1960s, another specialization, "bariatrics", was created to deal with those who erred from the medical norms concerning the weight which the body should have. Thus, he underscores that in 1970, the American Society of Bariatic Physicians (from the Greek baros, weight) had 30 members, and already 450 two years later.

* Presumption of competence: Just as legal systems work on the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty, individuals accused of crimes should not be presumed incompetent simply because a doctor or psychiatrist labels them as such. Mental incompetence should be assessed like any other form of incompetence, i.e., by purely legal and judicial means with the right of representation and appeal by the accused.

* Death control: In an analogy to birth control, Szasz argues that individuals should be able to choose when to die without interference from medicine or the state, just as they are able to choose when to conceive without outside interference. He considers suicide to be among the most fundamental rights, but he opposes state-sanctioned euthanasia. In his 2006 book about Virginia Woolf he stated that she put an end to her life by a conscious and deliberate act, her suicide being an expression of her freedom of choice.<5><6>

* Abolition of the insanity defense: Szasz believes that testimony about the mental competence of a defendant should not be admissible in trials. Psychiatrist testifying about the mental state of an accused person's mind have about as much business as a priest testifying about the religious state of a person's soul in our courts. Insanity was a legal tactic invented to circumvent the punishments of the Church, which, at the time included confiscation of the property of those who committed suicide, which often left widows and orphans destitute. Only an insane person would do such a thing to his widow and children, it was successfully argued. Legal mercy masquerading as medicine, said Szasz.

* Abolition of involuntary hospitalization: No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment.

* Our right to drugs: Drug addiction is not a "disease" to be cured through legal drugs (Methadone instead of heroin; which forgets that heroin was created in the first place to be a substitute to opium), but a social "habit". Szasz also argues in favor of a drugs free-market. He criticized the "war on drugs", arguing that using drugs was in fact a victimless crime. Prohibition itself constituted the crime. He shows how the "war on drugs" lead states to do things that would have never been considered half a century before, such as prohibiting a person from ingesting certain substances or interfering in other countries to impede the production of certain plants (e.g. coca eradication plans, or the campaigns against opium; both are traditional plants opposed by the Western world). Although Szasz is skeptical about the merits of psychotropic medications, he favors the repeal of drug prohibition. "Because we have a free market in food, we can buy all the bacon, eggs, and ice cream we want and can afford. If we had a free market in drugs, we could similarly buy all the barbiturates, chloral hydrate, and morphine we want and could afford." Szasz argued that the prohibition and other legal restrictions on drugs are enforced not because of their lethality, but in a ritualistic aim (he quotes Mary Douglas's studies of rituals). He also recalls that pharmakos, the Greek root of pharmacology, originally meant "scapegoat". Szasz dubbed pharmacology "pharmacomythology" because of its inclusion of social practices in its studies, in particular through the inclusion of the category of "addictiveness" in its programs. "Addictiveness" is a social category, argued Szasz, and the use of drugs should be apprehended as a social ritual rather than exclusively as the act of ingesting a chemical substance. There are many ways of ingesting a chemical substance, or "drug" (which comes from pharmakos), just as there are many different cultural ways of eating or drinking. Thus, some cultures prohibit certain types of substances, which they call "taboo", while they make use of others in various types of ceremonies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz

I read his works many years ago and found them to be very thought provoking. I don't always agree, but his works are food for thought.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Apparently the only thing this great thinker hasn't done
is sit down and attempt to interview unmedicated schizophrenics.

Schizophrenia is indeed a mental illness, a poorly understood chemical cascade that eventually results in permanent structural changes within the brain. Sufferers often live in perpetual terror, no mystery when one considers how they've been treated most of their lives. The outside world affects the interior world.

I once had a schizophrenic teenager ask if there was any way to turn just the bad voices off and keep the good voices. He was fairly high functioning, in that his speech made sense. Often, all you get is a word salad that makes little sense to anyone but the patient.

The reality of that disease is a far cry from Szasz's political theories, I'm afraid.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh he's interviewed plenty of them. His point is that schizophrenia (and other disorders)
are definitional in nature. We draw a line and say people on this side are okay, on the other psychotic. Consider "oppositional defiant disorder".
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There is dysfunctional and counterproductive behavior
and there is real illness. Schizophrenia falls into the latter category.

He needs to know what he's talking about. When he starts lumping schizophrenia in with behavior problems, he clearly does not.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. You're missing the point, I think
Labelling is a big problem. Szasz is by no means the first to have pointed out (as TSS notes, below) that we used to define technicolor delusions as demonic possession. It was a religious issue, now it's been medicalized in western countries. In trad Islamic societies, it's defined as a blessing: the sufferer's mind is with God, and only her/his body remains on earth. In other words, as with everything else, the answers we get depend on the questions we ask.

And schizophrenia is defined by behavior, btw, just like ODD. Someone who behaves unexceptionally will never get a schizo diagnosis. But, as in Rosenhan's famous experiment that left red clinical faces all around, perfectly unexceptional people can get a schizo diagnosis merely by saying that they hear voices saying "empty", "hollow" and "thud".

Even Richard Feynman, for pete's sake, one of the least-psychotic people on earth, got a psychiatric 4F label after WWII because the Army clinicians weren't listening to him. He was trying to explain to them that he loved and missed his deceased wife very much, and that all sorts of phenomena were interesting to him as a scientist, while they were hearing that he talked to dead people, heard voices, etc.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. in this case...
ways of being are all contextual and nothing matters beyond that... so if the Taliban want to stone a woman to death in a crowded soccer stadium, it's their interpretation of god and thus okay within the context of their society? no matter if the woman does not want to be stoned to death? is that not the question we ask? if so, are we just operating within our cultural context and that woman's life has no ultimate value?

and if this is so, how does this situation change if it is validated simply by its existence?

I also know of the experiment in which the sane doc went to the hospital. but in the context of life, when your family member is obviously unable to function, to communicate - no one should be allowed to offer them a different way of being in which they can then decide? The issue, to me, is that mentally ill people many times cannot decide what is in their interest - what they want - because of the distortion of the illness.

but again, as I think this thread has shown, anyone who actually has a relative who is mentally ill doesn't approach it from a po-mo perspective. Love matters. A desire to seek help for those who are unavailable b/c of an illness that can be treated.. those are real matters.

Even before Derrida's death, quite a few people were already declaring po-mo povs emotionally, morally and ethically bankrupt. And one woman from India, whose name escapes me, has made a strong argument (it's online somewhere) that po-mo has created the climate in which fundamentalisms can flourish... her examples are Hindis, not other fundies.

...which brings me back to my earlier question.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. I don't personally think we're obliged to respect all other cultures, no.
I'm not religious, so my concern is for the autonomy and wellbeing of the individual. The "rights" of systems run a distant second in my hierarchy of what's important. So I would oppose the Taliban nasties completely, and would have few ethical qualms about their deaths if they persisted in their behavior (few would).

"in the context of life, when your family member is obviously unable to function, to communicate - no one should be allowed to offer them a different way of being in which they can then decide?"

I don't know where you're getting that. People in need of help should get help they can use. But real help doesn't require the recipient be labelled. Dissidents in many countries - not just the USSR - have found themselves labelled, imprisoned, and drugged (I won't say medicated) because they're dissidents. Dissidence is itself defined as worthy of labelling, because of course nobody but a nutter would oppose Dear Leader or his regime.

Labels express power relationships, and that's one of the things Szasz is trying to get across. Some guy with no education, a lot of rage, and few brakes on his behavior kills 5 people for what's in their pockets and we call him "criminal" and "psychopath". Bush (or Clinton) kills tens of thousands by proxy to enrich wealthy MIC stockholders and we call him "Mr. President". What's the essential difference?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. the work is dated, in his day it was claimed 10 percent of the population was schizophrenic
Edited on Tue Mar-04-08 10:51 PM by pitohui
the point he was trying to make with his polemics have been made, we can now do brain scans and see how a schizophrenic's brain differs from a normal person's brain and sometimes we can even give a medicine that cures it

back in the day, it was actually said that 10 percent of americans were schizophrenic, a ridiculous statistic and szasz had to overstate his case to draw attention to what was ridiculous about mental health treatment in his day

remember, back then, a woman could be pretty much shut away FOR LIFE for not being feminine enough or pissing off the wrong person or the wrong doctor, a woman was found in the 1970s who had been in a mental institution for her entire adult life (she was then IIRC in her 80s) for being a schizophrenic who invented her own language -- actually it was the doctors who were uneducated, she was speaking some perfectly real language from her native land, somewhere in eastern europe -- but it was too late, she'd been deprived of her entire life -- and there were many cases of women shut away for years or decades for being "neurotic" or "schizophrenic"

it was cases like this that made people skeptical about the value of a dx of schizophrenia and made it about as believable as a dx of "hysteria"

obviously this work is several decades dated and to my mind of little or no relevance today

i do think it was an important statement to have made back in the context of the time
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. One thing that stood out to me that he discussed
Was how back in the day some people thought folks who were different were seen as possessed, then as society grew and changed they were seen as mentally ill, and that some of us here and now would fall into those categories back then because we are different.

When we give people in government/church the power to determine that others are mentally ill, we also give to them the power to take away from them their rights.

I think we have come a long way in those regards, but I can't help but feel he had a deeper point we should pay attention to.

He does recognize that people have mental defects that can be helped, but is cautionary towards it all.

I don't always agree with him, but I think he brings to mind some things we should consider.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. does he discuss epilepsy?
should someone be able to drive a car if that person has grand mal seizures when the person is not medicated? Epilepsy is a measureable illness of the brain, was formerly considered a form of demon possession, is manageable in most cases with medication (the same medication, interestingly, that often works for bipolar dx'd people. I mean... since epilepsy is that an illness that can be measured, that makes it a disease, while the following is not?

what about ppl with mania? if they have families, should they be allowed to threaten the family members' lives because it's their choice whether or not they should be hospitalized? Or what if, when someone is manic, they go to work and spout nonsense about some great discovery they've had and have used the discretionary funds at his/her disposal to promote this discovery... which is bunk, but which means he would get fired? What if people who are manic are a danger to themselves, but their family loves them and knows they can remain in realityville if they take medication... should those people be allowed to jump off a bridge on a spur of a moment impulse? (btw, more ppl kill themselves when manic than when depressed... and one reason is the impulsiveness to the point of self-harm.

Is there a point at which the individual, if he or she is part of a society or a family, etc. must recognize that he or she also has a responsibility as a member of a community to encourage the well being of all? Isn't there a balance between self and others in one's life?

I read Foucault too, and he posits interesting questions and answers, but he also made statements with the knowledge that he had aids. So, is his perspective universal? Should someone with ovarian cancer tell others that dying is a sensual pleasure?

from an interview Foucault gave for the inaugural issue of Gai Pied in 1979, and from another interview given in 1983 (and published that year in Sécurité social: l'enjeu) extolling the virtues and pleasures of suicide. According to Miller, Foucault insisted that "dying is sensuous (just as Sade, for one, had said)" and, in those interviews, Foucault described death as the "formless form of an absolutely simple pleasure," a limitless pleasure whose patient preparation, with neither rest nor predetermination, will illuminate the entirety of your life.

(from Fact or Fiction: writing about suicide...)

I was under the impression that the idea of a subconscious was really not part of the intellectual conversation in Europe until the 18th c. - coinciding with the emergence of a theory of the sublime in art and nature. It's hard for us to imagine an existence in which Freudian concepts do not pervade our lives.

I can only imagine such ideas about mental illness come from someone who has never had to live with someone with an untreated mental illness. It is hell - for them and for you- but a person in that state will not necessarily seek treatment b/c he or she has a distorted view of his or her own existence.

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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have heard scientologists say much the same thing
That mental illness is made up and psychiatry is a scam.

I have known some pretty screwed up people. Mental illness is real. While psychiatry is not an exact science I think that they are on the right track.

The rest of it seems to be a medical rationalization for libertarianism.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. In some ways I can agree - but how does one define mental illness?
your brain is different than the rest of the populace, etc and so on?

I do agree that such things are real and I am all for treatment (have been on meds myself before) - I just think we need to be careful about how much power we give to those who define what it is :)
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Diogenes2 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I agree with you about Szasz...
a very, very interesting and thought-provoking writer.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. too many try to treat mental illness without any compassion.
Drugs and shocks alone do not successfully treat any mental illness. It takes very patient and kind people to make a difference.

The movie "One flew over the coo-coos nest" ruined the mental health services in this country. Within a few years of it coming out many mental hospitals had closed due to lack of funding. We now count on prisons to house the violent ones. The rest are roaming the streets homeless or are a terrible burden on their families.

I have no real solution to any of it but we could start by getting the treatment of the mentally ill out of the hands of drug companies and not waiting until a disturbed person kills someone before the issue of sanity comes up.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Correlation isn't causation.
"The movie "One flew over the coo-coos nest" ruined the mental health services in this country. Within a few years of it coming out many mental hospitals had closed due to lack of funding. We now count on prisons to house the violent ones. "

I agree with the 2nd and 3rd sentences in this paragraph. As for the first, no, I don't.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think Szasz is interesting...
It's interesting to think about the sort of effects that society has on diagnosis, and I think a lot of these issues are worthy of discussion. At the end of the day, though, I think Szasz is wrong despite having a lot of useful things to say.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. I have no doubt schizophrenia is real, that it is in some sense
Edited on Mon Mar-03-08 05:37 PM by Jackpine Radical
an illness, and that it is generally best treated with medication. I have seen many people who don't exactly meet the schizophrenia criteria, but still have psychotic symptoms, sometimes intermittently. Some of these people--many of them, in fact--test positive on neuropsychological tests for brain damage. They tend to get diagnoses such as Atypical Psychosis. As a matter of fact, I think the fact that schizophrenia comes with symptoms sufficiently well-defined to permit the examiner to classify someone as within or outside the schizophrenic category somewhat argues against Szasz, as does the fact that certain medications seem to ameliorate these symptoms. without simply snowing the patient. And, dammit, if you've ever dealt with schizophrenia, you know that it's not just "a different way of being" or something.

That said, I have plenty of other grudges against biological psychiatry. For example, I think that "Bipolar disorder" is a grossly over-used diagnosis, often given as a justification for inappropriately medicating people. (Many so-called Bipolars turn out to be PTSD cases or perhaps Borderline Personality Disorders and the like--but that is another essay for another day). I also think that most depression is an existential response to bad circumstances, that so-called "endogenous depression" is simply a long-standing existential problem, and that both are best treated primarily with psychotherapy, using meds only as necessary to get someone "up" far enough to participate effectively in the psychotherapy. (As an aside, one question I almost always ask depressive people is whether they can think of ways in which the depression is useful to them--e.g. providing an excuse for avoiding things).

And, as long as I'm on a roll about biological psychiatry, let me mention that I think medicating kids for Attention Deficit Disorder is usually the wrong way to go. I work in, and supervise, a clinic in which we are treating kids for ADHD without medications every day, and getting incredible results with EEG biofeedback.

I guess I'll quit now while this post is still short enough that smeone might actually read it.
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bean fidhleir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "symptoms sufficiently well-defined"
"As a matter of fact, I think the fact that schizophrenia comes with symptoms sufficiently well-defined to permit the examiner to classify someone as within or outside the schizophrenic category somewhat argues against Szasz"

But you doubtless recall Paul Meehl's famous anecdote about "growing my father's hair". Had he stopped the interview 10 minutes earlier....
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. One generally has a lot mor information than a single interview.
Anyway, one time I was interviewing an elderly chronically mentally ill woman and asked her if she ever heard voices telling her to do things when there is nobody present. Just then the ward speaker system came on and said that everyone should go to the dining room for recreation period.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Did just you hear it?
:rofl:
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. existential depression
I think that is an issue with a lot of depressive cases too. Because our society is set up to destroy our humanity. I read something a while back that stemmed from Victor Frankl's descriptions of existence in a concentration camp... surviving is hell, dying is hell. (no matter what Foucault says, the fingernail marks on the roofs of the gas chambers from people trying to claw their way out isn't a sensuous experience to me.)

the way to get beyond existential depression, this person noted, was to continuously create meaning for your life. Of course, if you're already severely depressed... how do you create meaning? maybe the issue was people who were not clinically depressed.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Depression is a luxury, generally only indulged in
by people who are not fully occupied with the immediate necessity of physical survival in the face of external hardships. The depression usually comes afterwards.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Jane Goodall observed what we would label depression among chimps
when his mother died, a young chimp walked away from the community, stopped eating, and died.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. And some concentration camp inmates were depressed
so I really do not agree that depression is a luxury... again, I'm talking about clinical depression. this is not the same thing as the blues. Those concentration camp victims sometimes killed themselves. Some were depressed, probably some weren't.

Since the majority of people with major depression are female, labeling such a condition a luxury... I wonder if, like heart disease, etc. women are not taken seriously because they don't present the same way that a male would.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yes. And depressed baby chimps have serotonin depletion.
Therefore the biological psychiatrists would tend to view the problem as a "chemical imbalance," and treat it as such, rather than recognizing that the brain chemistry is a result of the experience. The serotonin level is an intervening variable. To treat the serotonin situation without addressing the causes is to suppress the symptoms of the depression.

Not that I have any great ideas for treating depression in an orphaned chimp...
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Szasz is a wilfully ignorant fool at best. (nt)
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Mental illness is real.
Chemical imbalances are real.

But I'll agree with this:

"* Abolition of involuntary hospitalization: No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment."
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, I have committed a fairly large number of people to institutions
under 2 different sections of Wisconsin law: Civil commitments and sexual predator commitments. I had to testify in court in both types of instance. For civil commitments, they must meet 3 provisions: that they have a mental disease or defect, that this condition renders them dangerous to self or others, and that they be treatable. For sexual predator commitments, the conditions are slightly different. They have to have been convicted of at least one sexually violent act, and must have a mental disease or defect as in civil commitments, but it must render them more likely than not to commit further acts of sexual violence. There is no requirement for treatability for committing a sexually violent person.

And incidentally, the big fly in the sexual predator law ointment is the provision that they be more likely than not to reoffend. A whole cottage industry has sprung up around building scientifically acceptable actuarial tools to do that.
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Sexual predators are guilty of a criminal offense.
Therefore they are (justly) deprived of liberty.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Except that many states commit them to institutions
AFTER they finish their criminal sentences. The commitment is not part of their punishment. It's done in the name of treating them if possible, and protecting society from them in any case.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. So put simply
Bush is suffering from schizophrenia.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Oh, heavens, no!
Where did you get that idea? Narcissism and psychopathic traits, yes, but not schizophrenia. I would never have given that idea a moment's worth of thought, and I've never met any other respectable clinician who has done so either.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-03-08 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Abnormal behavior is only excessive normal behavior.

One of my grad professors challenged us to find an abnormal behavior without a "normal" counterpart, but we couldn't. He really had to stretch on some behaviors.

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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
32. His daughter was a 'friend' of mine in college...
hyperintellectual family, severely misguided...(read: disturbed)
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