22-Month-Old Child Finds Gun, Kills Himself

[fenriswolf]

*note, I am pro gun, I am also pro gun safty*

http://www.wftv.com/news/15545824/detail.html

OCOEE, Fla. -- Ocoee Police are investigating the shooting death of a 22-month-old boy at a residence in the Orlando suburb early Sunday morning. A police spokesman said that officers showed up at a house in the 900-block of Keaton Parkway around 12:40am, where they were greeted by family members holding the injured child.

Fire rescue personnel showed up and tried to revive the boy, but he died at the scene. The father of the child told police that his son found an .38-caliber revolver and accidently shot himself.

In addition to the father, investigators talked to other adults who were in the house at the time. The spokesman said they will wait for results of an autopsy before deciding if criminal charges will be filed.

The boy's mother was not home when the shooting happened and was notified by officers and the Ocoee police chaplain.

The names of the child and his parents were not released by the police.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Pavulon]

2. A terrible thing. A kind request PLEASE

to NOT turn this topic into a political mess. It is tacky.

Obviously a tragedy for all involved.

[apocalypsehow]

39. That is an unreasonable request on a discussion board. It's not as if we were in the family's living

room, with them present, debating the wisdom of gun control vs. so-called "gun rights": we are on a progressive discussion board, where the discussion of these kinds of matters is precisely the point of the board itself.

No, your request is made out of the (understandable) desire to not have to defend your "guns-for-anybody-everywhere-all-the-time" position, and its manifest tragic consequences as highlighted by the OP's posted article. And that is your problem, not mine.

[Pavulon]

44. Ok just asking..

To me it just seems a bit fucked up that EVERY shooting thread becomes a free for all.

I am happy to defend the right for people to own firearms and maintain them in accordance with the law.

In most states it is ILLEGAL to leave a firearm where a minor can get to it.

It is illegal to murder people.

The problems seem to come from fuckers who break the law. Hmm, wonder if more law makes that go away?

[WinkyDink]

102. Problem is: Punishment always requires a victim. Why are pro-gun people willing to accept victims

in the name of "just punish the bad guys"?

[Xenotime]

109. Exactly

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. Just about enough.

I have seen you post the comment that pro-gun people want "guns-for-anybody-everywhere-all-the-time" position about 10 times in the last week alone. Do you care to back that up with any kind of statistic, previous posts on this board or an NRA magazine article advocating that position? I have never heard anyone on this board make a proposal like that. Feel free to lie about your opponents, distort what they actually say and shout them down when you disagree with them, that's what fascist do. I haven't seen you post one constructive idea about what could have been done to have prevented this tragedy. Why don't you start there and stop being the shrill voice of unreason.

David

[Tesha]

48. Yes, let's ignore all of the 30,000 gun deaths every year

So you can have unfettered access to your toys
of choice.

Tesha

[Pavulon]

50. Lets address why 30,000 PEOPLE

choose to commit murder. It is illegal, BTW. We have a MURDER ban in the US...

Any gun control that exceeds criminal background checks and existing laws is pushed by lazy stupid people.

They are to lazy to address why PEOPLE choose to kill themselves (a huge number) and others.

They are to lazy to address why 1 in 9 black men between 18 and 32 is behind bars. That is INSANE. There are serious cultural problems at work in this country that are not at work on the streets of zurich. Not just race, poverty, and mental illness are at work, but a massive amount of crime is self inflicted by conditions here.

These topics are uncomfortable. So that is where gun control comes in. An easy fix for the simple minded.

Those who do not ask why Geneva and Helsinki are not dangerous places.

You too can be lazy and push gun control, like Prohibition before it, which does NOTHING to address the root cause.

Time to own up to the problems we have, and demand it from others. The days of blaming a chunk of metal for our problems, and passing it as a fix are gone.

[CTyankee]

60. Yes, but there are perfectly legal gun owners with no criminal or

psychiatric record who have a gun and once, and only once, kill with it. How is THAT for "uncomfortable"?

[Pavulon]

62. As rare as a true car accident, It happens

but in the VAST majority of incidents someone broke the law to lead up to it.

Again, the swiss and other armed european states come to mind.

[CTyankee]

68. And why isn't that VAST majority prohibited from having that gun that kills the next time?

Oh, and I'm not convinced that those "first time" killers are in such a minority. Just wondering...

As for the Swiss, I am checking that out with a family member whose son lives in Switzerland and has dual citizenship with the U.S. I'll let DU know what he says...

[EOTE]

70. No need, Wikipedia has a good entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Here are some snips:

"The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world. In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations."


"It is claimed that approximately 300 deaths per year involve the use of Swiss army guns, mostly suicides and family murders.<4> As a result of this and similar media reports, gun control advocates are trying to halt the practice of military weapons issuance and storage in the private homes of Swiss Army members. Gun supporters question the statistics and the practice has become a political issue. As of October 2007, the issuing of personal ammunition after boot camp has been discontinued and a majority of the already issued packs will be withdrawn within 2008."

[CTyankee]

71. 300 deaths, hmm? OK, well, I'll let you know what I find out....n/t

[Djinn]

87. why so spurious?

it's hardly a secret that the US has a much much greater murder rate than any other comparable western democracy even those with high levels of gun ownership.

Whether gun restrictions are a good or bad thing there is something else causing your need to kill each other beyond simply having access to the means.

Widely known, widely debated, discussed and written about but, as is often the case, if it's done outside US borders it doesn't exist :shrug:

[Pavulon]

73. You can buy 556 nato

at any firing range. Back out suicides. A firearm is just the path of least resistance.
Geneva is a very safe city.

[EOTE]

74. I wasn't suggesting that it's not.

Just posting the relevant parts of the wiki entry. I don't own a firearm and probably never will, but I think Switzerland demonstrates that a country's level of gun violence is not always very proportionate to gun ownership.

This was a terrible tragedy, but as you noted, a law was broke. Guns are but one of many, many dangerous things which can maim or kill if used recklessly or improperly.

[Pavulon]

72. 20% of households

have machineguns. Not replicas, real machine guns. Same as if every Guardsman had his duty weapon in his home. All the stats are on the internet.

To answer your question the same reason we dont ban cell phones and cars. Because if dumb shits can refrain from using them together (ie each used properly) they will not murder people.

Just take this one thing.. When you kill a person in a car it is almost always a result of negligence or criminal behavior.

I had it pounded into my head there is no such thing as a Accidental Discharge. There is negligent discharge, a fuck up, and an article 15, the penalty for fucking up.

You can never cure stupidity but you can make people own up when they hurt others.

[Winterblues]

108. Why aren't those 30,000 deaths caused by hammers or shovels

They can kill just as well as guns can but those deaths are caused by guns and not hammers. Why is that?

[EstimatedProphet]

110. Hear hear

[benEzra]

120. Most of those 30,000 are suicides. ~10,000 are murders, ~750 are accidents. (n/t)

[krispos42]

81. Give me a number

18,000 suicides with a gun every year. What percentage change would happen to the total suicides if tomorrow all civilian-owned guns turned into a puff of rust?

11,000 homicides with a gun every year. Same question.

Come on, take a guess.








The other 1,000 gun-related deaths are accidents (about 800) and justifiable homicide (about 600 total, police and civilian)

[DemBones DemBones]

117. I'd guess there might be a slight decline in suicides and homicides

if all guns magically disappeared, but only a slight decline. People who want to die or want to kill someone would find another way to do it.

And the real problem is that all guns would not disappear. Criminals wouldn't turn in their guns, only law-abiding gun owners would. Then they'd know that home owners would have no guns for self defense. Brilliant idea, gun control.


A child is dead and that's always tragic.

But many children drown every year in a few inches of water in a bucket, many others fall in a swimming pool and drown, many more are killed in auto accidents, some die in a broiling hot car while their parents are somewhere else. Children die in a lot of different sorts of accidents, and even the most careful parenting will never get the death toll down to zero.

[Djinn]

86. like your car?

How many people die every year just because people are too damn lazy to walk or catch public transport?

BTW I drive and living in Australia I don't really think much about gun laws so have no dog in this fight but find the arguments on both sides often descend into stupid.

If law abiding people can own cars (with restrictions on age, drink driving et al) even though they kill nearly 50,000 Americans every year, then why not guns?

I'm not claiming this is an argument against gun control just pointing out that your isn't much of a reason for it.

[Tesha]

99. Cars serve a useful purpose daily. It's unclear guns, on average, ...

Cars serve a useful purpose daily. It's unclear
guns in the possession of violent Americans, on
average, *EVER* serve a useful purpose, other
than as a sexual aid/comfort for the paranoid.

Tesha

[michreject]

92. They're not toys

and only immature reasoning would think of them as such.

You showed us a lot about yourself with that statement.

[Tesha]

98. Right. Well, maybe when gun deaths reach 50,000 per year people will finally be...

Right. Well, maybe when gun deaths reach 50,000
per year people will finally be disgusted enough
with the carnage to decide our right to life trumps
your right to bear *SOME* arms.

Tesha

[michreject]

100. I doubt it. nt

[SKKY]

3. Heart breaking. I'm pro-gun because I know how to keep them locked...

...up and to keep this kind of stuff from happening. I can't imagine how the child's father must feel right now.

[sammythecat]

38. I feel the same as you.

That poor man. What a tragedy.

[SKKY]

56. My kid gets a cold, and I fell like crap because, as a father, I feel like...

...I'm not giving him enough Vitamain C. Thinking about what this guy might be going through ruins my day.

[CTyankee]

61. That "poor man". Well I feel bad for him of course but why didn'the

try to keep the baby from getting the gun in the first place? Isn't that his responsibility?

[sammythecat]

76. How the hell would I know that?

How would any of us here know that? And yes, it is his responsibility. Weren't you sure?

The man made a horrible mistake and I'm going to make the assumption (the only assumption anyone should be making at this point) that he was a decent enough guy and loved his child like most any parent. I'm 57 and have experienced a good share of pain like most of us, but I have never experienced the hell this man is likely going through. Read my response further on down the thread.

"Why didn't he try to keep the baby from getting the gun...?" Why didn't you or I do something else the last time we made a mistake, large or small? I hate to use a cliche but sometimes shit just happens. We make mistakes and most of the time we're lucky and no one is seriously harmed. And in this case we don't know any of the particulars and it's a MISTAKE to make insinuations or judgments without knowing all the facts.

I'm not wanting to jump all over you, but I didn't care for the implied sarcasm quoting the phrase "poor man". He is a "poor man" right now and is likely suffering as much as a human can.

[zanne]

96. The truth is, some gun owners are irresponsible...

The argument that legal gun ownership should not be "regulated" because the guns are bought legally is a pile of crap. The famous "car" argument is also very weak. That's the same argument the neocons used about US casualties in Iraq, so that lets us know where alot of gun lovers are coming from.

The owner of the gun that killed a 22 month old baby should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Otherwise, the gunlover's arguments about "responsible" gun ownership won't hold water.

[ananda]

4. You know what I wonder about...

How people can look at gun tragedies
and still be pro gun.

Pro gun?

I also wonder about people who love
war machines.

[Pavulon]

10. Other things that kill unsupervised children when not secured.

Another polite request to not turn this threat into a political mess.

[0007]

20. Another trap we could live without.

[Duke Newcombe]

11. I also wonder...

...about those stupid pro-swimming pool people, seeing as they kill three times as many kids as guns.

Next to those people, ones that exploit a family's tragedy after being asked not to.

Duke

[JackintheGreen]

27. I hate the term "Pro-gun"

almost as much as I hate "pro-abortion." Pro gun rights, maybe. Pro-gun, not so much.

Not to make too fine a semantic point.

[Djinn]

88. have fun with it

if people insist your pro gun because you think people should be able to own them, insist on calling them pro-car, pro-dog, pro-hat, pro-pickle, pro-deodorant, pro-window stick on garfield dolls etc

[apocalypsehow]

42. Excellent point - I wonder the same things. But all I ever get is the posted equivalent of grunting

in reply:

"Guns good - gun control bad! Guns good - more guns better!"

[Pavulon]

46. Ban Buckets QUICK

before some shitty parent lets their kid drown in one. This person, depending on the state law, probably broke a control (law). Making it more illegal to leave a gun where a kid can get it will help how?

You guys always sling shit, and never have an answer.

Here is an answer, personal responsibility. If you own a gun secure it. If you dont, you are a criminal. If you drive your car, get off the fucking phone and leave your blackberry alone.

When you wreck, your SUV did not kill someone, you did. That makes you guilty of manslaughter. One notch under the guy who panics and shoots the store clerk. He will plead down to what you did.

It is the same shit, ban this, control that.

How about be responsible and expect to pay when you fuck up doing something really stupid. Grow up.

Sometimes this nation is like a bunch of 4 year olds.

[hyphenate]

5. What the fuck is a gun doing lying around

loaded and with the safety off? Sounds awfully suspicious to me. Then again, some people are really too, too stupid to own a gun, period.

This child has just won another posthumous Darwin award.

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. oh come on

you can't give a 22-month old a Darwin award.

[hyphenate]

14. Okay, okay, okay!

You're right. He's too young to breed. Give his parents the Darwin award and a jail sentence at the same time, if for nothing other than complete ignorance and neglect--whichever side a person falls on the subject of gun rights, it's still a matter of suspicion what a loaded gun was doing where a 22 month old could grab it.

We'll give the kid a break.

[Pavulon]

26. Illegal in this state

to leave ANY firearm where a minor can access it. Common sense law, supported by all sides here.

[sammythecat]

47. "We'll give the kid a break"

Your sarcasm on this tragedy is unbecoming.

Why can't you assume that the father may have been a decent enough father who loved his child and made an unimaginably terrible mistake. And I think the hell his is most likely going through right now is probably more than most could bear.

Most all of us have probably made a mistake in our lives that could have very easily resulted in tragedy. But we were lucky, weren't we? Someone like myself who has been driving for 40 years must certainly be able to look back and find at least one instance when they could say, "Thank God what almost happened didn't. It would have been my fault. I could have killed someone but I was lucky." This poor man is likely going to have to pay a price that he is never going to be able to meet. I feel sorry for him.

Try, for a moment, to put yourself in his shoes.

[hyphenate]

75. Because I don't think anyone leaving a loaded gun

around has got much going on in the noodle. In my mind, I have grave doubt the father was a "decent" sort, and my thinking is that he was likely involved in something highly illegal. Perhaps I'm the asshole because I look at this situation with such suspicions, but when you think about the circumstances, there are way more questions that just don't have a satisfactory answer as it stands right now.

Regardless, we're talking about a 22 month old child--NOT a 15 year old, NOT even a 5 year old: we're talking about a baby. A barely walking, waddling, non-comprehending toddler. And it's fairly improbable that holding a gun and shooting it at himself is within the physical realm of such a child. Not impossible, but it appears there were more than the father present in the house when it happened--so explain to me what kind of parent is going to be leaving a 22 month old baby to fend for himself in a house with other people? The only parents that I can think of are negligent ones.

So you may choose to disparage my comments, but we're coming from this from two wholly different viewpoints, and who knows just where the truth might lie? Perhaps we will never know. But I certainly think his father should hire a good defense attorney, as I'd have him up on charges of manslaughter--at the very least, and murder if it's appropriate.



*edited to add: mother wasn't home, so corrected that reference

[sammythecat]

79. "but we're coming from this from two wholly different viewpoints,"

Yes we are.

I'm looking at this as a tragic mistake made by a father resulting in the death of his child. That is indeed my presumption as of this moment. Kind of like "innocent until proven guilty". Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? We know NOTHING that could lead us to presume conspiracy, manslaughter, or murder. All we know is what was stated in the article.

Who knows what we'll know tomorrow. Right now it's too early to go get our torches and pitchforks.

[Djinn]

90. huge assumption there

"I have grave doubt the father was a "decent" sort, and my thinking is that he was likely involved in something highly illegal."

You have NOTHING at all to base that on. I agree the parents were idiots, completely irresponsisble, stupid idiots.

BUT

sammythecat is right - most of us have done something that for the grace of the spaghetti monster, could have turned out very badly.

Most parents have had that white with fear moment at least once when they can't hear or see their toddler and they see the pool fence is open, or something similar.

The pain of loosing a child sort of makes social opprobrium unnecessary.

[Djinn]

89. I'm with you there

I've never fired a gun and only laid eyes on a handgun when in the US on holiday, so I don't know how easilly they go off. I also don't have kids and know little about how dexterous a 22 month old can be but I did wonder how they got into a locked cabinet, loaded the gun, took of the safety and fired it.

They likely had their bleach locked up safer than their gun. Terrible and final way to learn a lesson.

[michreject]

93. Revolvers don't have manually operated safety's

Some of the newer ones have a ILS (Internal locking system). This renders the gun a paperweight. I have a few that have the ILS, but don't know where the keys are. :freak:

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Not the baby's fault.

The parents'.

[redwitch]

37. what the fuck is wrong with you?

22 month olds are not responsible for gun safety. jesus h. christ!

[michreject]

94. Revolvers don't have manually operated safety's- nt

[Xenotime]

111. I want to know why this gun was left loaded with the safety off too!

This was criminal on the gun onwer's part.

[Unsane]

118. "This child has just won another posthumous Darwin award."

What is this supposed to mean?

[zabet]

6. So sad.

:cry:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. Tragic, and criminally negligent.

[CTyankee]

12. Yes, on its face it is criminally negligent!

What I can't understand is how there can be adults in the house and NOT know what a 22 month old is doing ALL of the time?

But I agree that something here doesn't quite make sense, unless these are people who are used to having a loaded gun lying around all the time. I guess stranger things have happened, but it's hard for me to imagine...

[JerseygirlCT]

32. Oh, 22 month olds can be very good at sneaking off

even when you think you've got them in your sights every second.

Which is why you child-proof your home. Obviously that includes unloading and securely locking a gun. (I prefer opting not to even have one in the home, myself.)

That's why people put covers on outlets and toilets and cabinets. That's why they make sure the locks to the doors are secure and high enough so a small one can't reach them. That's why pools have fences - or should.

There's no way around this being criminal negligence, IMO.

[CountAllVotes]

9. reminds me of a friend of my Dad's

My father's friend had his LOADED hunting rifle displayed above the fireplace in their house.

Both my father's friend and his wife went out for awhile, leaving their very curious son alone in the house for a little while. He decided to check-out that hunting rifle proudly displayed and did not know anything about it.

My Dad's friend and wife came home to find their son dead. I will spare you the details of the grim findings.

Ever since this happened I have been against having guns in ANY house where a child is around. Period.

I've seen enough of this kind of thing in my lifetime. When will people ever wake up to the reality that nothing escapes a child's curious mind?

:(

[hyphenate]

19. I can't say all gun owners

with children aren't responsible. My brother always had rifles, but they were kept in a gun locker and unloaded. He and my nephews were out one day in the desert on their dirt bikes, and Chris saved the kids' lives when an aggressive rattlesnake decided he liked the smell of human flesh. My nephews don't like guns, though, despite growing up with them--it's just not something they feel any attraction to.

Personally, I don't want them around; I have no desire to shoot anyone, and I know I'm not strong enough to defend myself with one of them anyway.

[CountAllVotes]

51. me either

I believe they attract highly negative energy. Like I said, the case I mention above is one of several.

I know of another guy that has a gun. He thinks it is "hidden". His 5-year old son told me "My Daddy has a gun!". I asked him if he knew where it was and he told me that yes, he knew but is was supposed to be a "secret". 5-years old ...

and after that the woman living next door to me cracked up one day, ran into town, bought a pistol and shot someone. She is in jail for life now.

And that is only 3 of many cases I have seen.

It goes beyond responsibility.

I care to shoot no one either.

What a truly sick society we have become.

[JerseygirlCT]

34. Absolutely. There's just never a time

when they can be safely left within a child's reach. Never. You have to watch little ones especially every second, but you still never, ever, assume that watching them every second is enough.

[Lorien]

59. It happened to a friend's four year old too

The children (three of them) were left with a teenage babysitter who was busy with the other two when the smallest disappeared. No one knows how the four year old got into the gun cabinet. There was a loud bang but the babysitter could do nothing. The child died instantly. My friend took his own life with a handgun a few years later. :cry:

[Irreverend IX]

83. No, let's hear the details.

Because I find it hard to believe that a kid could shoot himself with a hunting rifle. They're quite long, and to hit yourself anywhere with one, you'd have to hold the muzzle toward yourself and reach far forward to push the trigger. After hearing a story about a guy who got killed while "cleaning his rifle," I tried acting this out with a rifle that had the bolt removed and found it a very awkward operation, and my arms are much longer than a kid's. A kid would probably have to push the trigger with their toe or use something to reach it.

I can believe that a kid would accidentally fire a rifle, damaging the house and scaring the hell out of the neighbors, but I can't imagine how a self-shooting could be anything but deliberate.

[B Calm]

13. I am pro gun too, but the owner of this gun should be arrested!

[EstimatedProphet]

113. I fully agree

[Mojambo]

15. Gotta throw the book at that gun owner.

I'm for responsible gun ownership.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

16. This is incredibly sad and depressing.

Where were the "gun safety" lessons that were to prevent this exact thing from happening? Someone passed when they shouldn't have or they avoided class that day altogether.

[GCP]

17. Hold on a minute - how heavy is a 38?

Can a 22 month old even pick it up and hold it steady enough to shoot himself? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

[B Calm]

22. That's why I think he should be arrested and charged!

[theHandpuppet]

23. That's what I was wondering, too

Can a 22 month old actually handle and fire a 38? I don't know much about guns so this is an honest question.

[Pavulon]

24. There are some very light (expensive)

38s. However the trigger pull would be 5 - 9 lbs. Sad all the way around.

[Pavulon]

28. After a bit of thought, yes..

but not by holding the grip ans placing the weapon to their head.

Only by placing it against the floor or a table and using a finger or thumb to push the trigger away from them.

Possible, but should never have happened.

[ingac70]

31. Not to mention...

how many pounds of pressure is needed to pull the trigger?

[Pavulon]

35. 6lb Double Action, in most

revolvers like a lady smith. My guess a small child would not be ablt to shoot themselves traditionally. Only be bracing the grip against the ground and "pushing" the trigger.

[MadAndy]

45. Double action trigger pulls are usually in the 15-20 lb range. Most todlers are not strong enough

to pull the trigger except by using both thumbs. Unfortunately when they do that the gun is pointing at them.

[CTyankee]

65. Oh, good god, why this hair splitting? A child is dead, for chrissake!

He got hold of the gun, it fired and it killed him, OK? Got it? Please, this is no time to say anything but what should be said about loaded guns in a house where there is a normally inquisitive 22 month old and a loaded gun? Nobody needs a Ph.D to figure this one out!

[Pavulon]

66. Upstream poster discussing foul play (nt)

[MadAndy]

77. Don't crawl up my butt just because I provided some information.

[Djinn]

91. hopefully you're not a cop or coroner

there are obvious questions here - is the kid shot itself, the crimes are related to not securing a firearm, if someone else shot the kid (accidentally or not) then the crime is something else entirely.

Inquisitive toddlers are surrounded by dangers all the time, pets, electricity, household chemicals, that's why they're usually secured. It's really not hard to do it with your bleach, your drano or your gun

[krispos42]

82. The listings in the gun magazines show...

between 10 and 15 pounds in double-action (firing from the hammer-down position).

Looking in my most recent edition of Gun Tests magazine...

Taurus .44 Magnum
Double-action: 11.0 lbs
Single-action: 6.5 lbs

Ruger .44 Magnum
Double-action: 12.0 lbs
Single-action: 5 lbs

Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum
Double-action: 13.0 lbs
Single-action: 6.5 lbs


I don't know about a not-quite-two-year-old being able to pull a cocked single-action trigger, never mind a long, heavy, double-action one. And who keeps a cocked revolver lying around????

[krispos42]

84. Generally about 2 pounds loaded.

Maybe up to 3lb on some of the longer-barreled guns. Smith & Wesson and Taurus make some real lightweights athat weigh in at a pound or less. Those are made out of aluminum, titanium, or scandium for the most part to keep the weight down.

[Lance_Boyle]

103. double-action trigger pull would be too much, I think

but there is every possibility that a 22-month-old could manually cock the hammer. Things that go "click" are interesting to babies.

[slackmaster]

112. That was my initial reaction as well

And the trigger pull on a double-action revolver is going to be several pounds.

[Reciprocity]

18. This sounds fishy to me. I think I'll wait before I decide on this one. n/t

[alarimer]

21. Hopefully the person that owns the gun will be charged with murder

Because leaving a loaded gun where a kid can find it is just like pulling the trigger yourself. A small child like that isn't capable of learning proper gun safety.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Why wasn't the gun unloaded

and placed in a child proof location? Why weren't the bullets stored in another child-proof place?

People can be amazingly careless with deadly substances. I recall a co-worker whose son died because he ate rat poison that was left out and not put into an inaccessible area in a locked bait box.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. What kind of deranged idiot leaves a gun where a child can

get at it?

I'm so sorry that they will now pay a horrible price for that stupidity, but honestly - I don't understand why people think they can own guns and have children and not keep those guns securely locked away.

[Pavulon]

36. Lots of stupid bastards, I think

they are taking over. The same people who leave their kids in hot cars do this. There is no EXCUSE. Any police department will GIVE you a trigger lock.

[JerseygirlCT]

40. No there really is not excuse.

Unfortunately, those parents will now suffer for the rest of their lives for their supreme stupidity. What really sucks is that few others stupid people will learn from their mistake.

[benEzra]

121. I don't know if this is the case here,

but in several recent cases in which a young child accessed a gun and shot herself or someone else, the gun's owner was a criminal legally prohibited from possessing firearms. Drug dealers often have families too.

FWIW, our guns aren't kept where the kids can access them, although my wife and I can get to them very quickly. Quick-access safes are an excellent investment.

[reformedrethug]

33. The parents

should be arrested for child endangerment, manslaughter, and general stupidity!!!!!!!!!

I wonder why this gun was:

A) Not protected with a trigger lock
B) Not in a gun safe, or other place where a child cannot gain access
C) Why was the damn thing even loaded???

[Edweird]

41. How sad. People need to go to jail for this.

A 2 year old is far too curious for there to be accessible firearms.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. what an incredible tragedy.

My heart goes out to this family.

This is something that they will never get over.


peace~

[China_cat]

49. What's really wrong with this picture?

I've fired a .38. Unless they have a hair trigger, it takes a fair pull to fire. Child of 22 months...small hands, likely not much strength in them. Sorry, something really smells about that story.

[Skittles]

52. that's what I thought too

something does not quite compute

[Zoigal]

53. First thing i thought when i read it...

Take a bit of finger/hand strength to pull that trigger...z

[tachyon]

55. Hair trigger or not, either it has to be cocked (pulling against a strong spring)

if it's single-action...or if it's double-action it can't -have- a hair trigger and the pull is several pounds.

[sammythecat]

57. Trigger pulls vary from gun to gun

and if the gun had a hammer it wouldn't be too difficult for a two year old to cock it, and then the gun would have a "hair trigger".

Some guns (1911's) are sometimes kept in what's called "condition one", meaning cocked with the safety on. Safeties can be disengaged by a baby.

In any case this was tragic negligence leading to death and horror. That's the simplest answer, and I think the most likely. There's nothing said in the story that should suggest any kind of conspiracy or intrigue.

[Irreverend IX]

85. This was a revolver, not a 1911.

A lot of incidents like this happen in drug houses, where parents are partying all the time and kids are left to their own devices. The pattern of events--other adults in the house, mother absent, child awake after midnight--suggests that that may be a possibility, and double-action revolvers have very heavy triggers, so I wouldn't completely rule out foul play. But it's too early to make any real judgment given the scant facts in the story.

[sammythecat]

119. You're right, I missed that when I first posted

even though it was printed out plain as day.

Maybe I'm slow, but I'm impressed with your detective work. You certainly put together a very plausible scenario. It makes perfect sense and just before writing this I saw an article that said the police have yet to decide if there was foul play. If this was murder or criminal negligence then of course my thoughts will change. And if it turns out to be a drug house situation where chaos and carelessness is the norm, then I agree that punishment is in order.

My assumption was that this was a case where a guy had his gun unsecured with a toddler loose in the house. It might have been the only day out of the last thousand that he didn't secure the gun. We just don't know. I was picturing an average household where now the father has to face the fact that his child is dead because of his own negligence. Nothing else involved but his own failure. I would think this would take any parent to the limits of self-hatred and loss. It reminded me of a story last summer when a farmer was plowing and had his grandson on the tractor with him. Somehow the child fell and was crushed to death under the wheel. More recently there was a woman who accidentally backed over her two year old in the driveway. The mother and grandfather were at fault. If they'd been more careful that moment the children would be alive. These were most likely decent people whose lives are now forever changed for the worse, if not ruined. Calling these people names and demanding legal action just seem like cruel piling on to me. It's not needed and it's not going to make it better.

Again, I'm going on the innocent till proven guilty premise. It may be murder or malignant negligence, or it might be a tragic accident. Thing is, this case involves a gun, and that fact alone is enough to get some here red in the face. They have a passionate hatred of anything having to do with guns and now here's an incident involving the death of a child, and some are too quick (I think) to jump to the worst possible conclusion.

[tachyon]

54. That's very tragic, but ---- what is a 22 month old toddler doing up and about after midnight?

There is more to this story, no doubt.

[JI7]

58. whether it's an accident or not the parents should be held responsible

if the child really did shoot himself by accident the parents should be held responsible for keeping a gun in a way where a 22 month old was able to get hold of it.

[Lex Talionis]

63. This is where existing gun control laws should come into effect.

the father should be intensely investigated. Was he drunk? High? Why was the gun in a place a two year old could reach it? Why was a two year old up that late at night? A lot of questions need to be asked and answered. What about the other adults in the house? Very suspicious. But hey, lets pile on and blame the gun, it did it.

As for pools, two children, brother and sister under 4 years, drowned last summer in my area. Mom was in the house getting high with her boyfriend. Also in my area a 1 year old drowned in a toilet. Again, Mom, who was watching her favorite TV show, wasn't doing what she was supposed to be doing. Make of it what you will.

[CTyankee]

101. I never wanted to have a pool when my kids were young, I was so scared of

kids drowning. I took my baby boy to visit my parents and he toppled sideways into their pool. Of course, I was standing next to him and pulled him out by his leg within 2 seconds. So with me it was smart 1)not to have a pool and 2)watch them like hawks if they are at someone else's pool. Plus, you must know if they are properly supervised at pool parties when they are little. I remember getting upset when I saw one of my daughters put on her swimsuit without taking off a thin chain necklace. She wanted to wear it to her diving meet and I said "absolutely not." She was 11 at the time.

[Lex Talionis]

107. It was a smart move on your part. Lots of parents, and I use that term

Loosely when it comes to some, just don't watch their kids. Then they are all mortified when something happens. A few years back the wife and I were riding along a country road. This little kid no more than 3 was walking right down the middle. We stopped, the only house was several hundred yards away. My wife stayed with the kid and I ride up to it. Theres a big party going on. Mom couldn't believe that her baby "just got up and walked away". Some people just don't need to have children. My wife never let our daughter go to a pool party unless she went, too. She had to stop that when daughter reached the age of 13. :)

[varelse]

64. This is especially horrible because

you just know the parents will probably spend the rest of their lives blaming themselves for the baby's death. People make mistakes that sometimes have tragic consequences, and it looks like that is what happened here.

[sammythecat]

80. Given the facts from the article

I agree with you. I think it's the only reasonable and responsible assumption to make at this point.

I can't understand why some here are so eager to add their own imaginings to the facts. Reminds me of the lynch mobs that were always so quick to form in the old TV westerns of the 50's and 60's.

[AlCzervik]

67. poor baby. i have trouble wrapping my little brain around this one and if i were the parents

i don't think i could go on. Just fucking senseless and so damn avoidable.

i grew around guns, my Dad has a big collection and they were always under lock and key and hidden, to this day i don't know where he his them and in his new home has a gun safe built in to a wall.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

69. Unacceptable.

Accidental or intentional shootings by adults or children. Absolutely unacceptable.

[CANDO]

78. Life is not worth living.

When something like this happens because of adult stupidity. If my child ever dies because of my idiocy, it's over for me.

[hyphenate]

95. Some more facts on the case

(I've highlighted some areas)

Police: Toddler fatally shot himself while father slept

FDLE will analyze a .38-caliber revolver to determine whether the 22-month-old boy's death was an accident.

Etan Horowitz | Sentinel Staff Writer
March 10, 2008

A 22-month-old boy was shot and killed early Sunday in what the boy's father told police was an accident that occurred while the adults in the Ocoee home were sleeping.

<snip>

The father, who police would not identify, told police that everyone was asleep when the boy woke up, found a .38-caliber revolver and accidentally shot himself, Richardson said.

The gun belonged to the father but it was not registered or listed as stolen, Richardson said. That type of gun typically is a "double-action" revolver, which requires the shooter to exert a lot of pressure on the gun for it to fire, he said.

"Normally you wouldn't think that a child that small could pull the trigger with that kind of action," Richardson said. "But there could be a malfunction, or a spring could be loose."

He also said .38-caliber revolvers usually have about a 10-pound trigger pull, so the shooter essentially has to be able to lift 10 pounds. "That would be a like a 22-month old toddler picking up two gallons of milk, which is kind of hard," Richardson said.

<snip>

Richardson would not identify the child, citing an ongoing investigation, and said the boy's mother does not live at the home. In addition to the father, there were other adults in the house, including the boy's grandparents.

Police are awaiting autopsy results before deciding whether to file charges, Richardson said.

The rest of the article:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-deadbaby1008mar10,0,883822.story

[LostinVA]

97. What a tragic story -- that article does make it sound very fishy, though

[orleans]

104. the father should be arrested for negligence, at the very least

"Detectives questioned the baby's father to try to figure out how the toddler managed to get a hold of the .38 caliber handgun and why the safety lock hadn't been installed."

why the FUCK do you have a LOADED gun without a SAFETY LOCK in a place where a BABY under the age of TWO YEARS can get at it?

[LeftHander]

105. two year old could not pull trigger of revolver or cock hammer.

UNless the dumbass kept his pistol with the hammer cocked.

[TCJ70]

114. How did the kid pull the trigger? n/t

[slackmaster]

115. There should be a federal tax break for people who buy decent gun storage devices

Here's mine. I paid almost $3K for it.

[Mugu]

116. With such small hands and short arms and fingers,

how does a baby point a revolver towards itself. I suppose that while laying on the ground with the muzzle pointed towards himself he could grasp the rear of the trigger guard and then use his thumbs to pull the trigger. But, I find it hard to believe that a 2YO has the strength in his thumbs to pull the trigger on a DA revolver. Plus, in the above scenario the friction of the cylinder on the ground would increase an already heavy trigger.

It's a tragedy no matter what the truth is, but I'm having great difficulty believing this story.

Regards, Mugu

Edit: Changed an to a.