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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:49 PM
Original message
Riots, hoarding, panic: the sign of things to come?
Already we have riots, hoarding, panic: the sign of things to come?

Carl Mortished, World Business Editor

The spectre of food shortages is casting a shadow across the globe, causing riots in Africa, consumer protests in Europe and panic in food-importing countries. In a world of increasing affluence, the hoarding of rice and wheat has begun. The President of the Philippines made an unprecedented call last week to the Vietnamese Prime Minister, requesting that he promise to supply a quantity of rice.

...


“This is a wake-up call,” said Robert Zeigler, who heads the International Rice Research Institute. “We have a crisis brewing in rice supply.” Half of the planet depends on rice but stocks are at their lowest since the mid1970s when Bangladesh suffered a terrible famine. Rice production will fall this year below the global consumption level of 430 million tonnes.

Street protests and rioting in West Africa towards the end of last year were a harbinger of bigger problems, the World Food Programme said. The global information and early warning system of the Food and Agricultural Organisation (FAO) has monitored outbreaks of rioting in Mexico, Morocco, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Guinea, Mauritania and Senegal. There have also been protests in Jakarta, the Indonesian capital, over government price increases.Population pressure and increased wealth are mainly to blame for the resurgence of food insecurity. More people are eating meat and dairy products in Asia, which increases the demand on the animal-feed industry. Milk powder prices rose from $2,000 to $4,800 per tonne last year as rising consumption of milk products in Asia coincided with shortages in the Western world. Drought in Australia has worsened the problem as have government policies in Europe and America to increase the use of biofuels.

...

Wheat is suffering even greater pressures, with prices up 115 per cent in a year. A succession of droughts in Australia has put upward pressure on the cost of a food commodity that is already in short supply. Stocks are at a 40-year low and exports are being restricted from Beijing to Buenos Aires. Ukraine started closing its door to grain exports in June and Russia set a 40 per cent export tariff on wheat in January.

...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3500975.ece
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. The planet can't support six and a half billion humans
and we just keep reproducing more and more.

Any population that gets out of control meets the same fate - lack of food pares it down to a more manageable size.

So - that whole abstinence only birth control is eeeevil thing working out for people?
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
3.  Are you sure?
I don't claim to know the optimum population for the planet but I do believe that the current problems are caused or at least exacerbated by switching the use of land from food crops to crops used in biodiesel.

It was easily foreseeable and preventable.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. that's using corn.....not rice.
Population has grown to the limits of this Earth....water is scarce as well. This has been coming for a very long time and no one would listen to POPULATION CONTROL...except the Chinese.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. No one?
"natural population growth in most developed countries has diminished to close to zero...

Similar trends are now becoming visible in ever more developing countries, so that far from spiralling out of control, world population growth is expected to slow markedly in the next century, coming to an eventual standstill or even declining. The change is likely to be accompanied by major shifts in the proportion of world population in particular regions. The United Nations Population Division expects the absolute number of infants and toddlers in the world to begin to fall by 2015, and the number of children under 15 by 2025"

wikipedia



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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Go talk to Al Gore or
check out www.popconnect.org and take a look at some of the facts. Sure, developed nations aren't growing...but take a look at the Developing ones. You think males over there are gonna wear condoms??? Hell, many think by raping a virgin, they will rid themselves of the HIV virus.

Does the UN think we are going to educate the developing nations between now and 2015? Given W's harsh crackdown on funds for Family Planning all over the world, it's going to take us a decade to catch up to where we were before the asshole took over.

So Wiki says "world population growth is expected to slow markedly in the next century"...so we're talking 2100??? Next century? You may trust Wiki 100%, I see it as lazy proof...sorry. Just read carefully what that short paragraph says. 'Major shifts in particular regions...' Famine kills everyone in a certain area???

Of course, we could have another Big Plague...or a nuke...maybe that would help...?



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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. ahem. I've looked at the facts. Pop growth is declining in
the developing world as well. Much of asia, latin america, parts of africa. (HOW did I know the poster's concern was with the "developing world"?)

World average fertility is about 2.6 - just a bit over replacement. Scheduled to level off, if current trends hold, around 2025 - 2030.

You speak of "educating" the developed world. I suggest, since americans consume 1/4 of world resources, 30-40 times more than the average african, it's they who need "education."

No need for a nuke. US & other big power proxy wars have killed more than 4 million people in the Congo region alone in the last decade. The holocaust few people mention.

The Congo has a higher birthrate, but a lower population density than the US. It has a hell of a lot of resource wealth, though.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. and as for "carbon trader" Gore, he can
bite me.

He ain't no knight in shiny armor where resources are concerned. Or population. Just a shill for one of the competing capital gangs.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Education....you know, if women of the
country get an education, they tend to not want or have lots of kids.

You reproduced? I did my job...I know that Americans create shitloads of waste and eat ou more than their fair share or resources...but you said there's no population problem, right? So what's the problem...consumption? Maybe both.

Fine...the world is just hunky dory...now go put your head back up your arse so I can ignore you. Go reproduce.

When did all of these stupid fucking people start to show up on DU? They're like evangelicals...'God said it. I believe it. That settles it.' Instead...'wiki wrote it. I believe it. Why research?'

It's like having a discussion with a two year-old.

The Congo will wish it had NOTHING in resources after the US gets down with it. Or do you deny that as well?

Nevermind, I won't see the answer.



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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I wonder why some people can't have a discussion without personal attacks.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2127.html

Go down the list to "World". 2.59/woman. Just a smidge off replacment rate. Reputable source?

Here: UN report. Is that reputable enough for ya?

"Developing World Below Replacement Rate by 2050"

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/pop850.doc.htm


Overpopulation is a measure of population v. resources. The US, Europe & Japan use the overwhelming majority of the world's resources, as nations & as individuals. So if we want to talk about "overpopulation," that's where the discussion should start.

Africa uses a tiny fraction of the world's resources. They'd have to grow their population 30-40 times to equal US per capita consumption.

But the population bugs always focus on the "developing world".

I have no children. But the facts are the same, whether I have none or 50.

Total fertility rates for the entire world are going down. The average for the world is 2.6, for the "developing world" it's 3.0. Estimates of future pop growth have been revised down at least twice I know of.

I don't care if you see this, as you're apparently wedded to your version of reality - since you feel a need to name call rather than debate.

But there are others who might be interested.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. hemp seed could help feed the world.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. ethanol, not biodiesel. n/t

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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Has more to do
with concepts of wealth, economic systems (capitalism) and colonial arrangements.

Who gets "pared down" first?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Don't worry about it.
We're going to let all the coastal people go. Everywhere.

I live on a coast in a city that cannot evacuate.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. optimal population
The optimal population would be the largest population that can be supported without creating useless suffering, poverty, and conflict. That is not a fixed number. It is a number that varies according to the available technologies (considering agriculture a technology), the dispersion of those technologies, and the strength (or weakness) of our cultures and their interactions.

Witnessing the onset of global warming, I have to believe that the world is significantly over-populated. Sadly, nature has it's own ways of restoring population balance.

Yeah. The abstinence-only approach to birth control is, borrowing from the jargon of it's most enthusiastic advocates- eeeevil.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. The US, with 300 million, consumes 1/4 the world's resources. n/t
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. So .... The Conservatives have been in control of things for 6 years ....
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 08:58 PM by Trajan
I thought they were economic prodigies ....

Somehow; Their stewardship of the world AND national economies has accidentally slipped from their confident if dishonest grasp ...

When does AMAZING republican financial brilliance kick in and do something good for the world ? ...

Oh ... yeah ..... They lined their own pockets, and now they are almost done ....

Got it ....
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. But we love fetuses!
We must have more fetuses!

Just watch...pretty soon some 'religion' will come along and say it's best to abort...the world is evil...send the fetuses to heaven where they will happy with God. I can hear it now.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's not look'n good is it...
:-(
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Local police here: Holdups used to be for drug money...
...now they are finding people turning to robberies out of despair for nothing to eat, no money to heat their homes.

Mission accomplished, George.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. 37 percent jump in robberies here in Winston-Salem
Edited on Sun Mar-09-08 10:39 PM by libnnc
in comparison to last year per WSPD.

5 armed robberies in one weekend--all in various parts of the city.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. That's because of the decline in Christian values
because of liberalism. Just pray harder.

:sarcasm:
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. And...and...and the 10 Commandments in *every* public place!!!
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 02:52 PM by KansDem
Also, prayer in school!

That'll stop the madness!
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Doctor Cynic Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. I know quite a few daughters of Praire farmers...that might be handy one day.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's time to whip up some Soylent Green!
Soylent Green - the other white/red/brown/yellow/black meat! :sarcasm:
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
49. Now that would be hilarious if
if if it werent so serious.;-)
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Well, it was just A Modest Proposal
n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Irony intended, I assume.
Swift was mocking the English ruling class, who similarly moaned about the "overpopulation" & "poverty" in Ireland - even as they stole Irish land, converted it to export crops & sheepfields, & left the Irish to subsist on potatoes on sharecropper plots.

"In the tradition of Roman satire, Swift introduces the reforms he is actually suggesting by deriding them:

'Therefore let no man talk to me of other expedients: Of taxing our absentees at five shillings a pound: Of using neither clothes, nor household furniture, except what is of our own growth and manufacture: Of utterly rejecting the materials and instruments that promote foreign luxury: Of curing the expensiveness of pride, vanity, idleness, and gaming in our women: Of introducing a vein of parsimony, prudence and temperance: Of learning to love our country... Of being a little cautious not to sell our country and consciences for nothing: Of teaching landlords to have at least one degree of mercy towards their tenants. Lastly, of putting a spirit of honesty, industry, and skill into our shop-keepers...'"
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
57. Aren't we drifting in that direction already?
And doing it smoothly and unhurriedly.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. So..
I'm confused, are people trying to suggest that we should enforce population control? We all know what happens in China to those who have too many children. The world is quite large enough for all of us, I assure you - it's the distribution of the world's wealth that is the issue. Held in the hands of the few, while they continue to hoard - and the masses suffer.

Population control would undoubtedly, largely favor the wealthy. Has anyone else heard of eugenics? Quite popular, even here in America, some time ago. At it's heart, this is quite similar. Why? Well, because, obviously, the majority of us are NOT wealthy. That's where your "overpopulation" comes from. Too many mouths to feed huh?

Well, fuck that. I'd sooner storm the castle than see innocent people tormented because some assholes can't share. Anyone tries to tell me how many kids I can have... they better wear a helmet and body armor.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. One
:hide:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Overpopulation IS the problem. Your sense of entitlement betrays your ignorance. nt
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. And your adherence to outdated Malthusian Dogma betrays your
lack of human compassion.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Please don't try to say that managing the Earth and addressing overpopulation is "lacking of human
compassion." It is really pathetic.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. Hmm have you worked in areas of the world where that Malthusian curve
is more than just theory? Free clue some of them are even INSIDE the US.

Here is another huge free clue... carrying capacity... heard of the term? We are reaching it, fast, if not already reached it

With the end of the age of oil you will see that dogma become reality for several billion people, and as a former humanitarian worker who has done triage, I want to tell you this... you will not have the task of triaging and deciding who lives and who dies. Somebody else will, and if our media has it its way, you won't even see it in the news. Free clue, it is happening right now.


So yes, I'd enforce growth limits.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. malthus? carrying capacity?
Population density in Congo: 11-25/km2

Namibia: 2.5

Gabon: 5.2

Chad: 8

Mali: 11

Niger: 11.9

angola: 12.8

Somalia: 12.9

Sudan: 14.5

Zambia: 15

Mozambique: 25

Somiland: 25

Liberia: 29

US: 31 (Uses 25% of world's resources)

Kenya: 59

Ethiopia: 70

Cuba: 102 (90% self-sufficient in food)

France: 110

Uganda: 120

China (PRC): 137 (self-sufficient in rice until "free trade")

Germany: 232

UK: 236

India: 336

Japan: 339 (Self-sufficient in rice until "free trade")

Hong Kong: 6407

Monaco: 23,660


Who's overpopulated? Who's using resources taken from other people's mouths?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yes, Malthus and CARRYING CAPACITY
Population density does NOT tell you the whole story.

Naive in the extreme.

Here is another free clue, once the weather changes enough the carrying capacity of the US will DROP, why? our bread basket will move north
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. "Free clue"?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 06:59 PM by Hannah Bell
What is it with the resort to personalism on this thread?

On whom will you enforce birth control?

Total fertility is at/below replacement in Europe & Japan, & would be in the US if not for immigration.

It's 2.6 for the globe, 3.0 for the developing world, & is on track to be at replacement for the globe as a whole circa 2030-2050.

The US consumes 1/4 of global resources, the rest of the developed world another 1/3. The global ruling class owns or controls the majority of world resources.

"Overpopulation" refers to the relationship of people to available resources.

Who gets the birth control?
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Limits to growth
This is a good idea but it starts with consumption of resources.

The overpopulation issue pales when compared to excessive consumption by the "developed countries."

The United Nations statistics showing the inequality in consumption are very shocking:

Today’s consumption is undermining the environmental resource base. It is exacerbating inequalities. And the dynamics of the consumption-poverty-inequality-environment nexus are accelerating. If the trends continue without change — not redistributing from high-income to low-income consumers, not shifting from polluting to cleaner goods and production technologies, not promoting goods that empower poor producers, not shifting priority from consumption for conspicuous display to meeting basic needs — today’s problems of consumption and human development will worsen.

… The real issue is not consumption itself but its patterns and effects.

… Inequalities in consumption are stark. Globally, the 20% of the world’s people in the highest-income countries account for 86% of total private consumption expenditures — the poorest 20% a minuscule 1.3%. More specifically, the richest fifth:

Consume 45% of all meat and fish, the poorest fifth 5%
Consume 58% of total energy, the poorest fifth less than 4%
Have 74% of all telephone lines, the poorest fifth 1.5%
Consume 84% of all paper, the poorest fifth 1.1%
Own 87% of the world’s vehicle fleet, the poorest fifth less than 1%
Runaway growth in consumption in the past 50 years is putting strains on the environment never before seen.

— Human Development Report 1998 Overview, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

...

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Consumption.asp

Please take a careful look at the boldened figure.

What do you take from that?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. 300 million in the US use 1/4 the world's resources.
So the heart of the overpopulation is here.


It's not overpopulation driving rice prices. This year's harvest was a record.

It's speculation.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. Yes, but those 3rd world countries are catching up fast. How long before there isn't enough food
for everyone? :scared:
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. Sense of entitlement?
You mean the fact that I'm going to have as many kids as I like no matter what fascists say? I suppose you're right, yes, my sense of entitlement does indeed betray my ignorance. Now I invite you to come up to Northern Maine and explain to us how many children we're allowed to have. I'm sure we'll all listen most attentively.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. The ONLY reason people have lots of kids is because of entitlement, ego or religion.
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 04:41 PM by TheGoldenRule
Which are extremely stupid and ignorant reasons for bringing more people into an overcrowded world that is seriously threatened by global warming.

If you want a bunch of kids-ADOPT.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. And it is severe arrogance to assume
that you have even the slightest clue why any couple would want many children. That would seem to me, both arrogant and ignorant. While you're speaking of ego and entitlement, perhaps you should consider your own words. Do you feel entitled to tell people how many children they may have? Is it your ego that convinces you that these are the only reasons that couples would like many children?

I have no objections to adopting - but the American system is something of a farce, and internationally it tends to cost a very large amount of cash, particularly if you want "a bunch of kids". I'll have mine the natural way.

I appreciate your concern though.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. So which is it for you? Entitlement? Ego? Religion?
Your high horse attitude EXACTLY proves my point. Why don't you give a reason as to why you want so many children?

I know why. It's because you can't find a reason that isn't about entitlement, ego or religion.


FYI-there are plenty of foster kids that need homes and want to be adopted. And guess what? Adopting them is absolutely FREE!

Imagine that, giving a child-who's already here on this planet-a home and a family. Wow, what a concept.

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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-12-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Actually
I only have one child, and have no immediate plans of having more. Perhaps I never will. My girlfriend IS adopting internationally, and it's only a matter of time (I hope) before we're engaged.

My point is that you have no right to tell anyone how many children they may have. No one has that right. How would you enforce population control? Forced abortions? Sterilization for those who have too many? If we consider history, I think we can both accept that that would be abused. And it would be a travesty, a crime against humanity to begin with.

I live in Aroostook County Maine - there are many farmers up here, and some still do things the old way. Many children is a GOOD thing for them, for running the farm. Just one example. Yes, they could adopt foster children - if they were willing to adopt them, then lose them. The adoption system in America gives far too many chances to parents who just can't get things right.

Honestly, in Maine alone we have room for millions more. The planet has not reached it's full capacity for human life - and I think is a long way from it. There are plenty of natural, renewable resources to take advantage of. In the US alone, a portion of the funding we spend on the military budget would be enough to provide adequate food and clothing for every individual in the world.

Water and food may be in shorter supply in many places - but this IS due to a lack of compassion within humanity. Global warming is a real and present danger - but even that could be avoided/solved/postponed, regardless of population... if we simply used cleaner energy.

I confess, I do have an ego - but I do not follow any religion, and feel entitled to nothing but basic human rights.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. The world is NOT quite large enough for all of us.
Thanks for your assurance, but the evidence is literally asfixiating us -- there are too many people on the planet, and it is only getting worse because the religious cults denigrate contraception.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I suggest you start with yourself, then.
If you're american, you consume more than 30 africans do.

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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. That's cute. But it is important to understand that Overpopulation is a problem,
. . . and has been a problem that has gone unaddressed for decades, and is leading to the destruction of the planet. And institutions need to act accordingly, unfortunately, the religious cults have exacerbated the problem with their infantile views of contraception.

It is also important to understand that just because Americans consume far more than they should, that does not somehow excuse or erase the overpopulation problem from existence.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. It's not cute, it's fact. The US is 5% of the world's population, but
uses 25% of its resources. If we offed ourselves, presto-chango, no overpopulation (which is nothing but the relationship of population to resources).

What I've found, when people talk about "overpopulation," the people they have in mind are 1) poor or 2) dark. They never see themselves & theirs as the problem. What they seem to secretly wish for is to see the riff-raff disappeared so they can have more.

World population growth is tracking to level off around 2025 & should slowly decline after that, if present trends continue. So that will be one problem solved.

The problem of elites claiming most resources, & an ever-increasing slice of resources, however, will not disappear. and that's the real problem, the root of all problems.

There's no global food shortage this year, none. No oil shortage, no metals shortage. There is no abnormal jump in demand growth, either.

But people will probably die from the pseudo-shortages, the bubbles created to fatten finance's wallets.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Exactly
Hit the nail right on the head.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. That's great. Interesting scenarios, now back to reality.
People -- too many of them -- no matter the color or where they are -- are overburdening the planet and its resources. We need to do something about it. And we shouldn't have to be on different sides of the issue if we also believe in overall conservation, anti-imperialism, anti-corporatism, etc.

What I've found, when people talk about "overpopulation," the people they have in mind are 1) poor or 2) dark. They never see themselves & theirs as the problem. What they seem to secretly wish for is to see the riff-raff disappeared so they can have more.


That is truly fucking bizarre -- unless your vision of overpopulation involves killing people (and it apparently does). My sense of curbing overpopulation is allowing people to do something about it before there is someone else actually born -- as I mentioned repeatedly above -- things like making contraception available free of charge to anyone. Cool, huh?

Everyone still has a good time, and live a good life, they just do it without obliterating the world's ecosystems. Again, that isn't mutually exclusive from conservation, environmentalism, "making elites give up their ever increasing slice," and saving world ecosystems by other means, it is all part of the same effort.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. If the people you're contracepting aren't the ones consuming
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 04:44 PM by Hannah Bell
the overwhelming majority of the world's resources, what's the point?

You need to give the birth control to Europe, the US, & Japan.

But wait, their birthrates are already mostly below replacement level - yet their consumption is still growing. as it must, if the "economy" is to keep "growing", & profits keep flowing.

What's the solution, then?

Contraception for Africa so we can take more of their stuff. Got it.


Population density in Congo: 11-25/km2

Namibia: 2.5

Gabon: 5.2

Chad: 8

Mali: 11

Niger: 11.9

angola: 12.8

Somalia: 12.9

Sudan: 14.5

Zambia: 15

Mozambique: 25

Somiland: 25

Liberia: 29

US: 31 (Uses 25% of world's resources)

Kenya: 59

Ethiopia: 70

Cuba: 102 (90% self-sufficient in food)

France: 110

Uganda: 120

China (PRC): 137

Germany: 232

UK: 236

India: 336

Japan: 339 (Self-sufficient in rice until "free trade")

Hong Kong: 6407

Monaco: 23,660


Who's overpopulated? Monaco, one of the homes of the global ruling class.

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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #48
56. You cannot claim that everyone is going to want to consume more and more.
I'm sure many in the Third World were not thought to be over-consumers. But the Third World is going through a massive economic expansion, and every single one of those people is going to want to consume just like the worst of the U.S. and Monaco. In fact, that is exactly what we are seeing.

Population density, again without any link (why do you never provide a link?), does not address GLOBAL overpopulation, much less GLOBAL overconsumption.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-11-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. The point isn't some place in the future, where people
might consume more. The point is NOW, is there a sudden increasse in demand now, or a sudden decrease in supply.

There isn't.

and NOW, it's not the third world using all the resources, it's the first world. contracept them. 1 child policy for them.

Google population density, you'll get several lists.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. The problem, as has been pointed out...
Is not overpopulation, but the distribution of wealth (or, the world's resources). I believe Hannah has presented some figures that clearly show this to be true.

So yes, it IS indeed a lack of compassion. But, not to worry, global warming will solve that problem. Won't that make some people happy?
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. I already see the signs in Michigan. One gas station was robbed twice with in two hours.
Anyone with a job where you have cash on hand, pizza driver, gas station attendant, taxi driver, robbery is in the back of your mind. Here the robberies spike when the weather gets warm and it is breaking this week, forty and sunny is a heat wave compared to previous temps.
IMHO, gas spikes, the dollar free fall, and a bad job market make for a scary situation.
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Bushwick Bill Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
19. Yes.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Yes, fear.
The best way to herd the critters.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. There's no food shortage.
There's massive speculation - "on an unimaginable scale," according to a World Bank presentation.

NYMEX/COMEX up 400% since 2001.

There's too much money & power concentrated in too few hands. It skews markets, it skews information, it destroys life.

It disturbs me to see the focus here on overpopulation per se, given that the US has both low population density & low birthrates - but uses 1/4 of the globe's resources.

If current trends continue, global pop growth will level out ca. 2025. In a sane world, there are healthy, life-affirming things that could be done to reduce pop growth even faster, while providing better lives for all.

It sounds like some posters are welcoming the deaths of the poorest of the global poor - those who are the least to blame for resources crises or overuse, but are the first to suffer & die in economic downturns.
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. What do you advise us to do?
What action can the average American take?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I advise you to get together with your friends & neighbors & talk
in a rational manner about the real issues we face, & work from there. The most important thing, I think, is to form relationships with like-minded people & groups - locally, then work up. Organization is power. Provide for yourself, but organize.

I advise you to not buy into fear-mongering, which is everywhere. Fear is always manipulated to herd people into pre-determined "solutions" devised by others. Not the solutions we might choose democratically, beneficial to all, if we had access to the facts & less fear steering us.

I advise you to be leery of "party lines".


There's a wealth of evidence that the recent price rises - in all commodities - oil, metal (inc. gold), food - are not justified in terms of supply & demand, & have more to do with manipulation of markets & speculation.

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