Biofuels = Stupid Idea

[Orwellian_Ghost]

Biofuels = stupid idea


“Biofuels”, “biodiesel”, and all of the rest of that junk are bad ideas and rely on bad science. In particular, they are bad for the environment, not only in terms of carbon emissions (they result in more emissions) but in loss of ecosystems and primary forest. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/science/earth/08wbiofuels.html?em&ex=1202792400&en=b90a6c6cca379cde&ei=5087%0A">Here:

Almost all biofuels used today cause more greenhouse gas emissions than conventional fuels if the full emissions costs of producing these “green” fuels are taken into account, two studies being published Thursday have concluded.


The clearance of grassland releases 93 times the amount of greenhouse gas that would be saved by the fuel made annually on that land, said Joseph Fargione, lead author of the second paper, and a scientist at the Nature Conservancy. “So for the next 93 years you’re making climate change worse, just at the time when we need to be bringing down carbon emissions.”

It’s all one big interconnected puzzle of supply and demand:

Likewise, Dr. Fargione said that the dedication of so much cropland in the United States to growing corn for bioethanol had caused indirect land use changes far away. Previously, Midwestern farmers had alternated corn with soy in their fields, one year to the next. Now many grow only corn, meaning that soy has to be grown elsewhere.

Increasingly, that elsewhere, Dr. Fargione said, is Brazil, on land that was previously forest or savanna. “Brazilian farmers are planting more of the world’s soybeans — and they’re deforesting the Amazon to do it,” he said.

...

http://www.landusewatch.com/2008/02/10/biofuels-stupid-idea/

[DainBramaged]

1. But Brazil has made them a success, why not follow their lead??

[Orwellian_Ghost]

4. How so?

A success for who?

Short term-long term?

Financial success?

What's the problem that is being solved?

[SoCalDem]

15. Brazil is different.. sugar cane is a more efficient crop to use

and it grows fast, with little tending to and probably little or no chemical intervention..

They probably sold most of the sugar they made from it, and by using it themselves for their own fuel, it became more cost effective..

but here, when almost everything we eat, has corn in it, on it , we deplete a food source, and pay through the nose to turn it into fuel...

so we get $4 gas, and $10 cereal and $6 a gal milk..and the fuel people who are raping our wallets get a toe-hold into out food supply, and its production.. (they were already there regarding the chemicals they use to fight pests & fertilize the crops)..

slippery slope

[RB TexLa]

16. If Louisiana or Florida voted first instead of Iowa we'd already be using sugar cane and not corn

[DainBramaged]

20. They are petroleum independent, isn't that the goal??

We can't power our vehicles with solar or wind, and since combustible materials are necessary (short of steam) ethanol IS the only long term solution, but we need to get away from grains and concentrate on cellulose and sugar. And if we stopped embargoing Cuba, we'd have a source of cheap sugar.

[spag68]

18. Brazil

Down there they used sugar cane, which has a much better conversion rate. We can't do that here of course because sugar is price controlled. The essence of the post is correct, what comes out is only a little more then input. Coal to gas is much better except for all the mountaintops that have to be blown off. Renewables and conservation are the way to go. If the sun runs out we
re all gone anyway.

[kestrel91316]

2. I support biofuels as a means of utilizing what would otherwise go to waste -

like old french fry grease from McDonalds........

To take human food crops out of the supply line and use them for biofuels is insane.

[wildbilln864]

3. grow hemp every three to four months!

www.jackherer.com
"$100,000 Challenge to Prove Us Wrong!



If all fossil fuels and their derivatives, as well as trees for paper and construction, were banned in order to save the planet, reverse the Greenhouse Effect and stop deforestation;



then there is only one known annually renewable natural resource that is capable of providing the overall majority of the world's paper and textiles; meet all of the world's transportation, industrial and home energy needs, while simultaneously reducing pollution, rebuilding the soil and cleaning the atmosphere all at the same time...



and that substance is the same one that has done it before . . .



CANNABIS HEMP!"
:hi:

[Wizard777]

6. The greatest environmental crime ever commited.

Was outlawing marijuana at the advent of the automobile. Marijuana will suck up all the CO2 you can give it and reward you with nice sticky bud for doing it.

[wildbilln864]

12. yes and oxygen....

and paper, and textiles, and oil, and etc, etc. :hi:

on edit: and of course a healthier life would also be the reward.

[Wizard777]

17. Marijuana actually holds onto some of the oxygen it produces.

In the form of Canabidiol(CBD), It's an oxygen rich compound and foreign studdies are looking into how to use it to help with strokes. Your tissue can extract the oxygen from the CBD much in the same way it does from your blood. The big problem is how to get the CBD past the blockage causing the stroke to the oxygen deprived areas of the brain.

[wildbilln864]

27. Thanks, I hadn't heard about that aspect.

:hi:

[spag68]

19. hemp has my vote and

has had it since 1960, although I can't remember why.

[Mithreal]

5. The people who agreed to support biofuels knew this

It's like a deal with the devil these biofuels.

Who killed the electric car?

We can't seem to get past the idea of pumping fuels.

Who killed the electric car? Everyone should see this documentary.

[Aviation Pro]

7. Please research aquatic-based biofuels before applying your blanket statement....

...I agree with your assessment of cellulose-based biofuels (they use too much landmass and are not "drop in" capable), but you have failed to do your research on other emerging fuels.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

9. Fuels for what?

What is the problem being addressed?

What are these fuels fueling?

What are ALL processes involved?

I'm familiar with aquatic based biofuels and are like the others not just a band-aid but worse continue the pretense that such half-baked "solutions" even begin to address the reality of the problems we are talking about.

[Aviation Pro]

14. Among other things....

...a replacement fuel for jet transport aircraft. Air New Zealand and Virgin Atlantic just conducted a live test of a drop in replacement in a 747 and they are analyzing the data.

[snot]

8. I've read that the only ethanol source that yields a net improvement

is sugar, and that the kind and quantity needed could easily be supplied by Cuba, but that since we're wedded to embargoing Cuba and subsidizing U.S. agribiz, we're instead making ethanol from corn, which does NOT yield any net improvement.

[sam sarrha]

10. hemp oil would be a better fuel, has legume bacteria grows on marginal soil/low water. complete foo

makes building materials-ply board, resins, paper, cloth, medicine, pollution free non processed fuel,and biomass for methane... $180 billion ag industry. 3 crops a year.. read up on it

not all are bad.. corn should be banned immediately tho

[Greyhound]

21. Hemp is the way, 100% useful and leaves the air and soil in better condition

once it's harvested. Grows anywhere with little water and almost no care, and yields 3 crops a year in moderate climates. Superior in every way.
:kick:

[frogcycle]

11. crowing corn (maize) for fuel is stupid

it is a negative energy proposition

but "biofuels" is not stupid. sugar cane and switchgrass yield significant net plus energy. "clearing grassland" to plant corn for fuel is stupid, as described. but converting said grassland to native switchgrass, which is a perienniel, deep rooted so drought tolerant, needs no pesticides or herbicides, makes good economic sense. It removes carbon from the atmosphere and puts some of it deep in the soil in the form of roots, which eventually die and decay and are replaced by more roots. The above-ground portion can be harvested once a year, needs to be treated to break it down, and then can be fermented to produce ethanol. Planting vast tracts of grassland, expressway medians, etc. in switchgrass NOW to get a large stock of mature plants takes a few years for seed crop and/or transplanting via deep plugs once the infrastructure is in place to process it in volume makes sense NOW. Get it started and it will choke out the weeds.

If never used for fuel, at least it is biomass sequestering CO2 and providing habitat for prarie animals.

much the same argument for sugarcane in the areas where climate is right. Vast sugar plantations were converted to other crops when the healthy food movement reduced worldwide demand. Re-plant it. All the infrastructure is there for planting and harvesting (skipping the now-common burning though). As technology to produce ethanol from these sources economically - no govt subsidies - develops, the supply will be ready for harvesting and propagating.

[drthais]

13. ok now - let's calm down

..because this discussion has too many variables/

i agree;
bio-fuels made from potential food-stuffs is stupid and not sustainable long-term
it has already led to problems with corn-based foods in Latin America...
and it will lead to more scarcity
and I'll go ahead and leave it at that for the moment

and yeah, yeah - the gov. has banned some very useful potential plant-based solutions
but I don't see that changing anytime soon, do you?

over here, we are doing the following:
we have jut purchased a diesel truck
will sell the gas one shortly
on Friday, my husband goes to speak with a distributer of biofuel plants
we will pour a slab in the barn and install one
it's not as expensive as you would think
we have already lined up used cooking oil from restaurants

after we get this up and running, we will trade the tractor for a diesel tractor
the car, well, that's another problem
it may take a few years for there to be an affordable diesel car...
but mine is low-mileage and will do for three years or so

so there you have it;
we will be producing bio-diesel for the truck, and then the tractor
for about $1 a gallon
and that beats the dickens out of $5 a gallon, which gas will be at soon enough

the point is this:
you must get ahead of the curve

let's face it:
keep warm in the winter, grow food, have fuel
that's about it, isn't it?

plan, plan, plan
put your money into the future
I hate to day 'every man for himself'
but we must begin to take action

[El Pinko]

22. I agree that ethanol is crap, but biodiesel seems like a good way to reuse oil.

It's not a solution in terms of providing significant amounts of everything, but I see nothing wrong with it.

Ethanol does more economic and ecological harm than good and should be scrapped asap.

[Lance_Boyle]

26. biodiesel made from 'waste oil' is fantastic

biodiesel made from virgin oil is as much a crock of shit as corn-based ethanol. Unless maybe they can get the algae-based idea to take off - we need vertical aquaculture for that.

[JCMach1]

23. Ummmm... Switchgrass in marginal lands and other

non-edible biomass would be much better.

[Karenina]

24. Kudzu!

:silly:

[JCMach1]

25. Alabama and Georgia would be the new Saudi Arabia!