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Will `Ace' McCain Flame Out Again?

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Faux pas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:36 PM
Original message
Will `Ace' McCain Flame Out Again?
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 05:53 PM by Faux pas
Finally, some swift boating ammo for our side.

Kelly Patricia O'Meara

Over the years he's played many roles and worn many titles, including Navy aviator, prisoner of war, hero, congressman, U.S. senator, Washington insider, maverick outsider and, now, presidential candidate. But the one title of which few are aware is that of "service ace."

John Sidney McCain III is known among many of his Vietnam flight buddies as "Ace" McCain. This title has not been bestowed upon McCain because he destroyed five enemy aircraft. On the contrary: It was five on our side -- in fact, five of his own. Since throwing his hat into the presidential ring, the fact that McCain was graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy nearly at the bottom of his class has been publicized. His star-crossed flying, on the other hand, remains unknown to most. (continued)

Closing comments:

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."
~~~~~
"John McCain," says another Navy pilot and acquaintance of that era, "was the kind of guy you wanted to room with -- not fly with. He was reckless, and that's critical when you start thinking about who's going to be the president," The old pilot laughs, and then continues: "But the Navy accident rate was cut in half the day John McCain was shot down."

On a more serious note, however, there has been no discussion of what actions were or were not taken in dealing with McCain after each of the aircraft losses. Neither McCain's senatorial nor campaign offices returned Insight's calls on these matters. But a Navy insider notes that "after every such incident an inquiry is conducted to conclude the cause of the crash. If it were anyone other than the admiral's son, his wings would have been pulled. But that's where that kind of father comes in handy."
~~~~~~~
http://judicial-inc.biz/82jjohn_mccain_and_the_uss_forresta.htm

Photos of the damage he caused to the USS Forrestal

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_16/ai_61361646

edited to fix links-oops

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. FRom aWoL (p)Resident to another incompetent hero.
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Faux pas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They sure kept the lid on all this for what, 40 years? Now that's
a serious cover up. Yikes!
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Neither of your links work, but that's a good thing because the Forrestal fire wasn't McCain's fault
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. First link doesn't work and
I see no pictures of the Forrestal in the second link. Was the errant missle his or someone elses?
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Errant Zuni missile was from another aircraft across the flight deck
Struck his wing tank, which started a fire, and his bombs fell off their racks.

This link postulates that the misfire was caused by McCain doing a "wet start", which floods the jet nozzle with kerosene and creates a long trail of flame out behind the aircraft, as a hot-dog stunt.

Fact is, from footage I've seen, McCain's aircraft was ACROSS the flight deck, with his rear nozzle pointing off the deck to the side. The missile misfired as a result of a short-circuit. Zunis were notorious for that, so I've read before. So that's a bust.

But I think the part about a barely-competent pilot still flying has wings, never mind getting 28 medals for 20 hours of flight and destroying three aircraft. His father, Admiral McCain, was Commander-in-Chief of US Naval Forces Europe then. YOU go ahead and ground the Admiral's son.

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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thanks for the info. n/t
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't think McCain's service record should be attacked
the man was a POW - leave it be
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. An admiral's son with a reputation for recklessness
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 06:26 PM by Hobarticus
crashes three aircraft under less-than-stellar circumstances, yet is still flying?

Got 28 medals for 20 hours of flying?

Being a POW has nothing to do with any of this story. There's some here that make wisecracks about mental illness as a result of his time as a POW; that offends me, particularly.

But if he's going to run as John McCain, Naval Aviator, damn skippy this kind of thing is relevant.
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Faux pas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I guess you didn't bother reading anything....I don't need your
permission to post anything, or did I miss the memo that put you in charge. Go chew on someone else's ass. Thanks.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I read it
and I am not "chewing your ass" - I just think attacking McCain's service record would be a LOSING STRATEGY
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. uh oh, its ALL the fault of those pesky zionists!!! check the first link for PROOOOOF! nt
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. On the Forrestal - everyone go read this book
Edited on Mon Mar-10-08 07:12 PM by RamboLiberal
Sailors to the End - I got the paperback used on Amazon for .01

It show that no way in hell was McCain responsible for the Forrestal accident. His plane was hit by a Zuni rocket from another plane that tore through his fuel tank. The devastating explosions were cause by the Navy and the U.S. government being so desperate for bombs (there was a shortage) that they took on old WWII and pre-WWII 1,000 lb bombs that cooked off in a minute and a half. McCain had no responsibility for those bombs though there were other officers including the captain who debated not taking them aboard.

McCain barely escaped with his life, jumping off the front off his plane near the edge of the fire. His flight suit did catch fire but he rolled on the deck to put it out. He suffered minor injuries from the fire and shrapnel. Still he joined sailors on the hanger deck throwing bombs off the ship.

I don't know about his crash record but flying jets in the military is not exactly like flying commercial aircraft. There is a high rate of accidents and it is not an easy thing to be a carrier pilot.

I'm sick of you here trying to bring up this "Swiftboat" crap on McCain. You're no better than the wingnut Swiftboaters who attacked Kerry and Cleland's records.

Bet if we asked everyone you know there'd be some people who would say unkind things about you.

And for those who say McCain was unpatriotic in the Hanoi Hilton - how many of you in the same situation would've betrayed your mother to get out of that torture.

Now there, yes McCain is a hypocrite for his new stance on waterboarding - he's not a maverick and he's not a straight talker.

On edit - he lost 5 aircraft. 1st was a training crash while trying to land. I don't know that a training crash would be an automatic washout. It happens. 2nd he flew in to some power lines. Yeah that could be a washout but I don't know the circumstances. Daytime or night time? 3rd was a flameout - common with jets and not always the pilots fault. 4th was the Forrestal - not his fault. 5th was the shootdown - and a lot of pilots had that happen over Nam!

BTW, McCain was on his 23rd bombing mission - more hours than you have listed for combat flying. 23 missions is not exactly chump change.

Did he get some breaks because of his father - probably. Just like Bush got breaks getting in to the TANG because of Poppy.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your first link is a big bunch of Doo Doo
The plane that accidentally fired the Zuni rocket was on the rear starboard side of the Forrestal. McCain's plane was mid-rear port side of flight deck. The Zuni fired across the deck, struck a crewman taking off his left arm at the shoulder veering a bit right to strike McCain's plane in the fuel tanks which caused the JP-5 to pour out of McCain's plane.

If the damn U.S. government hadn't been so hard up for bombs that they needed to send the Forrestal the previous day a load of pre-WWII and WWII leaking 1,000 lb bombs that were extremely sensitive to cooking off very quickly in heat all that would've happened would've been a deck fire that the crew could have probably controlled with minimal casualties. And when these bombs cooked off their aged condition (they had been stored outside in minimal shelter in the tropics) caused them to explode like they were 1,500 lbs of explosive. 9 of them cooking off and exploding plus their setting off other bombs and rockets is what caused the devastating 134 killed and numerous more gravely wounded on the Forrestal.

Go get the film on this incident or go buy Sailors to the End before posting these garbage links!
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