NEED HELP Pummeling this RW crap to death

[NM Independent]

I'm highly active on another board - non-political - that is predominately Republican. I have an opportinity to shed some light and alleviate some ignorance. Please help me. I need to cover this from any and all angles, including how the * administration has destroyed the economy by continuing trickle down insanity.

I will greatly appreciate any help.

Here's the nonsense that was posted:


"Most do not understand economics, so this makes the tax system rather plain so that anyone should be able to understand it


EXPLAINING OUR UNITED STATES TAXING SYSTEM WITH BEER

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.


So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.'

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected.

They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end! up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued to drink for free, but once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. 'I only got a dollar out of the $20,' declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, 'but he got $10!' 'Yeah, that's right,'exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got TEN times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important....they didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works.
The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest.


Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.



For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible!"

I have to make them see the light. I might even be able to sway some votes. PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

[Birthmark]

1. Well...

...since the guy paying $59 just got his ass bailed out with $200 billion from the Fed, I'd say he got a great deal more than one beer. He should probably quit whining.

[Perry Logan]

2. Dude...these people voted for The Worst President Ever™--TWICE!

Don't waste your time trying to talk to these degenerates. Just tell them they're traitors and tell them to get out of our country.

[NewJeffCT]

13. If you don't respond, though

things like this gain strength and take on a grain of truth and then start getting out beyond just the Freepers...

[GaYellowDawg]

19. Then send out my reply below.

It's still overly simplistic, but you have to consider your audience.

[KharmaTrain]

3. It's Shadowboxing WIth Ghosts

I wish you luck, but I've found many who believe their being "taxed too much" are arrogant, greedy bastards who have little concept of how the tax system works and who benefits from it. They also have no clue as to how their beloved "tax cuts" have destroyed the economy through defecit spending by this regime that is now tanking the dollar (and why they're paying so much to fill up their tank) as well as the increase in local and state taxes.

The best game is to is to ask them which taxes they feel are worth paying and how much. Usually it's the "protect me" bullshit of military and police. Then ask about who picks up the garbage, fixes the roads, keeps planes from falling out of the sky. Good chance you'll hear the privitization mantra...so ask them if they want a "pay as you go" system...or one or two large corporations monopolizing with no oversight or accountability. Then ask how they profit from this. Then wait for the crickets.

Good luck...

[Kolesar]

4. The two richest men in the country are not in favor of tax breaks for the rich

Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Well, Gates has "defended" the estate tax.

[Hugabear]

5. It's called paying their FAIR SHARE

If you make more money, then you can afford to pay more taxes. That's the price for living in a civilized society. If they don't like it, they can take their riches to some third-world country and see how long they last without government protection.

[zanne]

18. FAIR? But that would be...

(gasp) Socialism! :sarcasm:

[elizfeelinggreat]

6. change the analogy

To the fact that the richest guy didn't work as hard for his money, he profited from the efforts of the poorest among them. When you look at their probable earnings per hour, he should be buying them dinner, never mind a beer. (And for every argument that says some welfare person is buying beer, there are plenty of recent examples of bondholders being bailed out by our government in this subprime mortgage catastrophe while the poor hourly worker loses his home ...)

My point: He should STOP whining and appreciate his life, available to him by their hard work.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Ok. Everyone pays 33% of their income.

So a person making 12,000/year pays 4,000 and is left with 8,000 to live on. Warren Buffet, making 46,000,000 in taxable income in 2007 would pay 15,333,333 in income tax and would have 30,666,666 left to live on. Do you see the problem?

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

Also, I would add that the closing lines basically are a justification of cowardice. So you can call them sniveling little wimps.

Additionally:
The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest.

This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. The people that pay the highest taxes, also pay the highest taxes? Good job, Einstein.

[mwb970]

9. Don't bother.

No brain-based argument will work on the kind of person who promulgates this kind of nonsense. Surely you have noticed by now that right-wingers do not respond to facts, logic, or evidence. You might just as well howl at the moon.

[tjwash]

10. Waste of time...you're playing chess with pidgeons.

They'll just knock over all the pieces, take a giant shit on the chessboard, and then fly back to the coop and tell all their buddies how badly they beat you.

[0007]

17. How much would Elliot Spitzer's girl charge to jerk off a dead man?

If the price was right maybe Elliot would consider the job.

[izzie]

11. Who made up that story? I am sure if we gave it some time

we could make up a good story also.

[gratuitous]

12. I'd say don't waste too much time

But I don't know any system where everybody gets the same amount (the glass of beer in this stupid example) of benefits for their income. In reality, the rich guy pays as much for his beer as everyone else, but he gets nine of the glasses, the ninth guy gets one beer, the eighth guy gets to suck the rich guy's spillage out of the carpet, and the rest get nothing. Then, when the rich guy gets looped, his hired goons bust into the bar and beat up everyone else, taking what meager amounts they find in the other patron's pockets.

Here endeth the lesson.

[GaYellowDawg]

14. I would reply this way:

EXPLAINING OUR UNITED STATES TAXING SYSTEM AND WEALTH WITH BEER

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

There were ten beers to go around. Each beer was 12 ounces. If the beer was distributed the way wealth is distributed in the United States, here is what would happen.

The tenth man got seven beers.

The ninth man got one beer, plus 5 oz in another mug.

The eighth, seventh, sixth, and fifth man were left to struggle for the remaining 19 ounces of beer.

The first four men waited until all the other men were done, and got tiny sips of beer and backwash from the mugs.

The ten men drank in the bar every day, but only two were happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.'

The first four men shrugged. Since they got virtually nothing anyway, it didn't really matter. The fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth men started arguing amongst themselves. The tenth man loudly proclaimed that 59% of the bill for 70% of the beer was actually charging too much. The ninth man, hoping to quietly filch some of the tenth man's beer when he wasn't looking, agreed loudly.

The eighth, seventh, sixth, and fifth man were divided. The tenth man called a very slick speaker over. The speaker said, "if you let the tenth man have seven beers, he might get drunk with them and slop some on the table and it could trickle down into your mugs off of the table, if you held them right."

Two of them, wearing red, agreed with the speaker. Two of them, wearing blue, argued that the tenth man should have to pay 70% of the tab for 70% of the beer, or only take 59% of the beer when paying 59% of the tab, leaving more beer for everyone else. It still wouldn't be much beer, but it would be more fair.

As the eighth, seventh, sixth, and fifth man continued to argue, the tenth man kept drinking, with a big smile on his face. He knew, no matter what happened, he'd still get plenty of beer, but why not get seven beers if the men in red were that stupid?

[NM Independent]

21. SWEET Reply

Thanks.

And, thanks for the other ideas to everyone else.

Keep it coming. I have to go to bed now.

You guys rock.

[NM Independent]

23. Well, I posted your incredibly cool analagy, and got THIS back???

I underlined the IF the way it reads is they all got the same amount and you cant say that's fair for one person to get the same amount of goods and services and pay more then the other. it would be like me and you going out to eat ordering the same thing and you expect to pay less because you have less money on you then I do. if I cant afford it I dont order it. people want and want but dont want to put up the money for it. new roads, malls, sports complexes, parks where do you get the money we all order them and we use them the same amount no one should pay more because they have it to pay. if you order it expect to pay for it..

[0007]

15. I got drunk just thinking about this problem.

[Orsino]

16. The analogy fails, confusing beer with the (other) necessities of life...

...and assuming that every one of those beer-drinkers had a job, health insurance and a paid-up mortgage. Ignoring the harsh realities of capitalism, as wingers so often do, the argument reduces the struggle of existence to a squabble over a bar tab.

[iamthebandfanman]

20. they wont listen to you

if anything youll get some personal attacks.

i dunno if id waste my breath.

i tried it once back in 2003-4 at another forum that was mostly republicans but non-political... me pointing out their political flaws, once one decided to post something of that nature, caused the whole board to fall into chaos and one big political fight so i left... lol

[VP505]

22. I had a similar experience,

and learned not to bother trying that again. Your can't reason with, change the mind of or explain anything to a brick, all I got for my effort was attacked. :shrug: