Isn't it amazing? Spitzer's prostitute suddenly is a prude

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Oy vey. I don't understand women that degrade themselves by selling their body parts for display and use, getting upset when the media publishes pictures of them displaying and using their body parts in the degrading fashion they're accustomed to. It doesn't make any sense to me. You either are degrading yourself, or you aren't. Why pretend you're not degrading yourself when you've done nothing but that?

[JI7]

1. because her family probably didn't know about it before

and probably friends also. it also doesn't help if she seriously wants to get into the entertainment business with her music.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. I just have no respect at all for folks that make a choice to humiliate themselves

in order to make easy money, then whine when the truth comes out.

[EFerrari]

190. Respecting people you agree with is easy. n/t

[seabeyond]

200. it is respecting, not respecting a behavior. not the person. i dont respect the alcoholic

and what he does to himself and his loved ones and society as a whole, but i love him. my brother being one. i have loved him regardless for two decades and abhor what he is doing and has done and will do.

it isnt a tough or unique concept

[EFerrari]

205. It certainly seems to be a tough concept for some people.

[seabeyond]

206. why? because this person does not respect what the prostitute chose to do

we must respect all people all things all behavior? not even. we are allowed to say, a person may chose the behavior, or they will chose their behavior, but we dont have to agree with it

[EFerrari]

207. As you said, it is possible to respect the person and disagree with the behavior.

[seabeyond]

209. no, i love my brother. i do not respect him. what is there to respect? n/t

[EFerrari]

210. That's your challenge.

[seabeyond]

213. wrong. unconditional love is my gift. but i have no challenge because it is not mine to do

respect is not an automatic in life. nor is trust. nor a lot of things. they have to be earned. all of us have to earn them. they are not just given automatically to all people for no reason

but love... is a given, in my book.

[EFerrari]

214. You really believe it's possible to love someone you don't respect?

Oh my. I'd love to see how that is done.

In any case, good luck to you both. It's a difficult situation. No one who hasn't gone through that can really understand.

Your brother is lucky to have you on his side.

[JI7]

216. yes, abusive parents , parents with kids who murder, rape

and commit other violent crimes that hurt innocent people.

kids who have abusive parents. they could love those parents but never respect them.

same with parents with kids who commit horrible crimes. they love their kid but don't respect them.

[EFerrari]

219. That's not love but traumatic bonding, imho but, I'm not Freud.

We throw that word around pretty loosely.

[seabeyond]

242. of course it doesnt have to be sooo extreme. my 18 yr old niece

that has made one choice after another that has hurt her and those she loves.... dont respect it love her. another niece that choses to be obsessive liar, love her dont respect her choices. two friends i have known over a decade, one drugs, one booze screw up their lives, dont respect them, love them.

that is about it on example

maybe the friend that is fucking a married man. dont respect that.... but love her

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

326. I think respect is too big a term...

I encompasses too many things to say I do or dont respect...

i.e. I think parents are accorded respect by their kids, now abusive parents might not be entitled the same respect as loving parents.

In terms of your brother Im sure you have some measure of respect which is borne out of love but at the same time don't respect him as a whole... I went through this with a family member, The respect I offer is in how I treat them, were they not blood I would not even allow them to be in the same room with me but as it is I will be kind albeit distant..

I see what you are saying I just think our language lacks the breath of standing to properly put it into words..

[Virginia Dare]

354. The word respect means a lot to me..

In this case, I think I would respect her if she went through the years of abuse and still came out of it okay and in control.

She obviously didn't, but I won't judge her for that, she did the best she could with her circumstances.

I will not, however, afford her "respect".

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

382. but do you 'respect her rights'

This is one of the differences I was talking about..

I respect my parents just because they are my parents

We respect the office of the president even if the turd currently it it does not..

[Virginia Dare]

383. Sure I do..

it's a touchy thing after you've already posted nude photos of yourself on the Internet though. It's hard to put the Genie back in the bottle. Actions have consequences unfortunately.

[seabeyond]

384. she has no right to be prostitute it is illegal, so the best i can do is ....

well i dont know..... cause i dont respect the choice. lol.

are you still talking the prostitute?

but, bet i can find something, probably more than something, i can respect.... in any person

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

386. Im speaking in more general terms..

I guess I tend to take every little thing and get philosophical about it..

No I dont respect her rights as a whore, nor would I even if that profession was legal but I think people need to back off of her not by law but by common human decency..

[Virginia Dare]

351. Respect is something that's earned IMO...n/t

[mondo joe]

404. I would suggest the following:

Respect for the right to make one's own choices is the minimum that should be afforded everyone.

Respect for the individual, or for the individual's choices, is another matter.

[Obamanaut]

300. Now THAT was nicely said. Thank you. nt

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

323. This is a hard one.. But you hit it head on Sea..

Freedom of Press / Right to privacy...

Here is the big thing: You don't have to respect someone to respect their rights!

I don't respect this hooker, I don't respect the profession, but I *do* respect her right to a reasonable amount of privacy. Would someone be happy if somebody took their nude image and splattered it all over the media?

Sometimes we end up doing something that we are not proud of and dealing with our loved ones in regards to that can be difficult. If a woman sleeps around but does not take money does she somehow have more a right to privacy than a whore? why?

--

I feel for you sea, being the child of an alcoholic I have seen the worst of what it can do. My older siblings had it way harder as he started to quit the drink later in life. Still you know the saying once an alcoholic always and alcoholic.

Still Ill pray for your brother, everyone should know the freedom of overcoming an addiction! Lord knows it has made bonding with my father easier...

[northzax]

309. easy money?

prostitution is easy money now?

[Kutjara]

2. Perhaps because...

...they'd prefer to keep what they're doing away from the censorious eyes of their families? Or the scandal-obsessed public. People do a lot of things they'd rather weren't public knowledge. Just because this woman's client happened to be a public figure, doesn't mean she wants to be one.

[JI7]

5. she does, but not as a prostitute

[Kutjara]

12. Makes me kind of long for the days when courtesans...

...could be influential members of society in their own right. Unfortunately, in these backward times, if you ever admit to taking money in exchange for sex, you're automatically an outcast in any other walk of life.

[TalkingDog]

17. Yep, just get marrried and the $ / () exchange is perfectly legal

I hear ya.

edited for wonkiness

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. Wow, lots of married people would be amazed at your opinion of marriage as being a sex-money

exchange!

[TalkingDog]

60. Karl Marx's opinion, I'm just agreeing with him n/t

[seabeyond]

111. just another male insult to female to feel manly. why is it so hard to feel like a man

women dont have to insult men and take jabs at men continuously to feel like a woman.

[northzax]

310. I think the point was

nothing to do with most marriages, but the whole may-december rich/powerful older partner, younger beautiful one.

there are many relationships where that is basically the trade off. remember the old adage about buying the cow when the milk is free? young people trade sex (or the illusion of sex) for power or money all the time (I live in DC, you see it all the time)


there was a piece in Parade magazine this weekend (long metro ride) in the celebrity page, someone wrote in and asked why stars like George Clooney and Bruce Willis date women half their age. the reply? "because they can."

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

327. The bonding of two into one is not about

trading sexual favors for cash... some women choose to be with a man far less able to provide cash than she might otherwise be able to 'land'...

Its called love..

[JI7]

23. in her case, it's unlikely she would have actually made it

when it came to music or anything else in the entertainment business. her music wasn't really good.

[Kutjara]

37. Given the endless list of talentless clowns who...

...have become stars, I'm not sure I agree. Just about anyone can hit it big, with the right combination of timing and PR.

[JI7]

48. yes, but when it comes to talentless clowns i think she has more chance

to do it now than before because she will get some offers because of Spitzer.

she wont ever become a serious music star. but i guess she might as well take advantage of her 15 minutes and get as much as she can out of it.

and with all the reality shows out there she can even turn it into a lifetime career.

[Kutjara]

51. Sadly, you're very probably right.

Any fame is good fame. It doesn't matter how you climbed to the top of the shitheap, just so long as you got there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. You're right. If her lawyer can continue to release nudie shots of her to the press....

She might get a career out of degrading herself before the U.S. and the world.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. I know, I heard her music nt

[Elidor]

61. Would you feel better if she wore a scarlet letter?

She has every right to privacy, even though she won't get any.

[enki23]

3. not a lot of fucking empathy, huh?

.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. You're right. Not a lot of that kind of empathy nt

[mondo joe]

16. I wonder: Do you think a prostitute can be raped?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. I don't know. If she's there to have sex, how is the man supposed to not have sex with a woman who

is there to get paid to have sex?

[JI7]

26. even prostitutes can and have a right to say NO

any violation of that is rape.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. How do you know where humiliating your private parts for money stops and

rape begins? Really. What is the exact point? I mean, rape is humiliating, but if you are there humiliating yourself, what is the precise point? A knife held at the throat? That would be a different crime.

[mondo joe]

35. Answer: Consent. Do you understand the difference between consensual sex and rape?

[JI7]

36. Vitter humiliates himself with Diapers but that doesn't make it rape

i'm not talking about your personal moral views but rather legal and a person's right to decide for themselves.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. True, but he's the one in control because he pays, plus men are not the gender suffering

discrimination throughout the history of this planet.

[JI7]

52. but she has the power to decide whether to sell and how much to sell for

and this Kristen person came from a wealthy family.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. Prostitution is humiliating to women in general. This is a very violent world where women are

almost always the victims, and most of it is sexually related. The whole notion of someone degrading and humiliating themselves sexually for money is sickening, and particularly when it promotes this really fucked up idea that many men have, that women somehow really like humiliating and degrading themselves. It's just totally fucked up. It's the antithesis of feminism.

[JI7]

58. those men are fucked up if they think that

[Sarah Ibarruri]

77. Men that buy a woman's body parts for their use, are not exactly idolizing her you know nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Hmm. I'll have to remember that next time I'm at the gas station.

Hey! I'm the one in control here!

[mondo joe]

28. You don't know if a prostitute can be raped. You're more degrading to women than any prostitute

with that kind of thinking.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. You're working overtime trying to justify humiliation of women as a career choice nt

[mondo joe]

44. Get over your backward puritan self. If you're humiliated by something, don't do it.

Get a boundary.

[Runcible Spoon]

263. **APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE**

:applause:

I was just going to bang out a post about how there are also many male prostitutes; both male and female prostitutes are extremely vulnerable in their professions to rape and violence because our backward, fucked-up, sex-obsessed quasi-Puritannical culture does not provide them any protections. A post about how a supposed "feminist" can't defend the choice some women make to sell sex for money without considering it debasement and humiliation whereas in other cultures and in our own at different time selling sex could and was a viable and accepted if not entirely respected profession. And in some cultures and at some times, it was/is one of VERY FEW means for a woman to obtain financial independence from a male.

Spitzer's whore is not a whore to me in any derogatory sense because she sold sex for money, but because she is an opportunistic hypocrit. That's a personality issue, not a career choice.

Anyway thanks for writing that.

[mondo joe]

270. Thank you. IMO, some people let their own fucked up feelings about sex spill onto other

people who have nothing to do with their mess.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

324. sometimes i cant believe the level of misogyny women perpetuate

just to feel holier than thou.

[mondo joe]

400. I think the OP hates women AND men, for what it's worth. NT

[Skittles]

145. sex and rape are two different things nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

185. Rape is an act of violence and humiliation. Prostituting oneself is allowing someone to commit

a form of violence and humiliation upon one's person.............. FOR MONEY.

[seabeyond]

208. that is very good. hm. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

271. Thank you. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

325. actually prostituting is just having sex for money with consent of buyer and seller

rape is against ones will and choice

you seriously disgust me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

421. YOU'RE NOT SURE IF A PROSTITUTE CAN BE RAPED?

That attitude is precisely why sex workers (and other adult entertainers who may not be selling sexual contact, like strippers) are at such a high risk of being raped. The drunken frat boy assholes who think "oh, she's a whore, anyway, it's not like it matters," or the serial killers who theorize "nobody's gonna miss her."

People like you are fucking enabling rape and murder with that kind of attitude. Fine, Sarah, you don't approve of prostitution -- but they're human beings, for fuck's sake. I don't approve of holier-than-thou misguided judgmental assholes, either, but I don't think you should be raped for it.

[noamnety]

85. Thanks for asking this question

and for making the point that classifying some women as "unrapable" is not a feminist position, not a human position, no matter where you stand on the subject of legalizing prostitution. In the intersections of where you and I agree and disagree, I am very firmly on your side with this.

[mondo joe]

99. Good. And I suspect that in principle we agree firmly on consent being critical.

We seem to differ more on the nature of consent.

[Chovexani]

4. ...

Never change, GD.

[mondo joe]

8. ...

:applause:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. Frankly, women who degrade themselves by choice, promote the general degradation of women

So why should I have any empathy now that she's upset her cover as a high-priced prostitute was blown and her family found out she's not a music artist after all?

[Chovexani]

21. Did she rape your parakeet or something?

[LostinVA]

235. OMFG

:spray:

Somebody in this thread has some serious issues.

[noamnety]

125. It was not her choice to grow up in an abusive situation

and I am not going to judge her for that, or presume to know how it affected her decisions that came more recently.

I don't know the details of her abuse. I do know that for many women, one result can be Dissociative Disorder.

The symptom profile of adults who were abuse as children includes posttraumatic and dissociative disorders combined with depression, anxiety syndromes, and addictions. These symptoms include (1) recurrent depression; (2) anxiety, panic, and phobias; (3) anger and rage; (4) low self-esteem, and feeling damaged and/or worthless; (5) shame; (6) somatic pain syndromes (7) self-destructive thoughts and/or behavior; (8) substance abuse; (9) eating disorders: bulimia, anorexia, and compulsive overeating; (10) relationship and intimacy difficulties; (11) sexual dysfunction, including addictions and avoidance; (12) time loss, memory gaps, and a sense of unreality; (13) flashbacks, intrusive thoughts and images of trauma; (14) hypervigilance; (15) sleep disturbances: nightmares, insomnia, and sleepwalking; and (16) alternative states of consciousness or personalities.

http://www.survivors-treehouse.net/Dissociative%20Spectrum.html"

I'm not in a position to psychoanalyze her, obviously, and all this may be completely irrelevant. Or it may be entirely relevant. The point is, neither you nor I know.

This is where mondo joe and I disagree on the issue of consent, and where I suppose I also disagree with you on the nature of consent. She did not consent to being abused initially, and she did not consent to the resulting issues she is dealing with, whatever those are.

I feel the same way about soldiers who come back from Iraq with PTSD and get into all sorts of trouble as a result. They may have consented to commit a violent crime, but they didn't consent - knowingly - to put themselves into a position to get the PTSD that made them consent to that act. So I hold them accountable, in the crimes they commit, if they do, but at the same time I am not without compassion toward them, because I understand how they were conditioned to get to a place where that was a real possibility.

Even without any abuse, we are conditioned, some of us more than others, to value ourselves through the lens of the male gaze, and we are told from very young ages that our value as women comes from being pleasing to men. We don't consent to that conditioning, it surrounds us and affects our world view when we are too young to process it, or think critically about it.

[Skittles]

146. I fit that profile

I have never thought once about stripping or screwing for a living - I actually worked my ass off - gee, what a concept

[noamnety]

187. And a lot of vets have PTSD

and deal with it in some way other than violence. But not all. One person's reaction to trauma is not everyone's reaction to trauma.

I am very sorry, regardless, that you've had to deal with that in your life.

[Skittles]

197. I am a veteran, too

:)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

193. So let me get this straight, there is no free will? We have no choices at all of any sort?

Look, every woman that I know (except extremely unattractive ones perhaps) can become a prostitute if they wish. A gigantic number of women have been abused in the universe, but most women are not prostitutes. People can choose from among those choices they are presented with. This country can be shit in that it provides less choices than other countries (the American Dream is a pipe dream), however, there are some choices, and most women have chosen NOT to become prostitutes, whores, call girls, or whatever one decides to call that profession of selling one's dignity for money.

[mondo joe]

6. It doesn't make sense to you because you're ignoring the CONSENT factor.

Everyone wants some measure of privacy and control in their lives. That's not unreasonable.

And what is degrading is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. No. What's degrading is these women who by choice degrade themselves and thereby

promote the general degradation of women. As if women didn't already have to contend with discrimination, we also need to have empathy for women like these that are ready and willing every time a man wants to humiliate them for money.

[mondo joe]

29. You're degrading women more than she is. If you can't recognize what CONSENT means

you're lower than any prostitute or customer.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Bullshit. You're in favor of prostitution and are trying your best to make the humiliation of women

seem normal, natural and a good thing.

[mondo joe]

39. I'm in favor of men and women making their own choices. You, however, degrade everyone

with your inability to understand the concept of CONSENT.

[Iris]

379. Who gets to judge what is degrading?

I'm an admitted prude and have pretty high standards for what I deem respectable bevahior; however, I 'm not comfortable forcing them on someone else and then using those standards to allow someone to be demeaned without her consent. I mean when does it stop? Doesn't she have the right to realize she's been demeaning herself and then make appropriate changes .... or not? Does the fact that her past behaviour is questionable give others the right to exploit her further?

[tammywammy]

189. Agreed mondo joe

:)

[MADem]

7. Young, not too bright, and from a less than optimal home life.

It's a sad situation all around.

[JI7]

10. less than optimal home life ?

she came from a wealthy family. all that broken home stuff is bs to dramatize her real sitaution. she left over something involving some expensive car and her dad.

[MADem]

63. I thought her parents were divorced. NT

[Blue-Jay]

66. So were mine, but I never sucked a governor's dick for money.

[mondo joe]

67. I sucked a guy's dick just so he'd shut up.

People do a lot of things sexually for a lot of reasons.

[Blue-Jay]

68. That usually works.

[mondo joe]

69. Then he gave me a set of encyclopedias.

:shrug:

I'd have been better off with $5k.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

98. Good point. nt

[MADem]

220. See? You were raised right. How people behave IS an indicator of how they were brought up. NT

[Blue-Jay]

223. I was indeed, but I have a question for you.

How is it that you can assume that that a child of divorced parents is likely to be a social deviant?

[MADem]

227. I never said that. You really should "pull the string" and read the whole thread.

Context does matter. I'll thank you not to go beyond what I actually did say.
It reflects on YOU, you see, not me. And poorly.

I said she came from a less than optimal home life. Someone ELSE said "Her parents were wealthy" and then I pointed out that "her parents" were divorced. I didn't say that the divorce "caused" anything. At all.

You're the one making the leap. I simply took the young lady at her word that she came from what she termed a "broken family" and had suffered abuse.

Here's some more of that 'context:" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/nyregion/12cnd-kristen.html

On MySpace, her page says: “I am all about my music and my music is all about me. It flows from what I’ve been through, what I’ve seen and how I feel.”

She left “a broken family” at age 17, having been abused, according to the MySpace page, and has used drugs and “been broke and homeless.”

“Learned what it was like to have everything and lose it, again and again,” she writes. “Learned what it was like to wake up one day and have the people you care about most gone.

“But I made it,” she continues. “I’m still here and I love who I am. If I never went through the hard times, I would not be able to appreciate the good ones. Cliché, yes, but I know it’s true.”

Ms. Dupré’s mother, Carolyn Capalbo, 46, said that after her daughter finished sophomore year in high school, Ms. Dupré moved to North Carolina. “She was a young kid with typical teenage rebellion issues, but we are extremely close now,” Ms. Capalbo said in a telephone interview Wednesday.

In 2006, Ms. Dupré changed her legal name, according to records in Monmouth County Superior Court, from Ashley R. Youmans to Ashley Rae Maika DiPietro, taking her stepfather’s surname since she regarded him as “the only father I have known.” But in the interview, she referred to herself as Ashley Alexandra Dupré, which is how she is known on MySpace.

[smalll]

119. She grew up in Belmar, NJ. Not exactly a place conducive to healthy childhood. /nt

[Kutjara]

14. Were you talking about "Kristen" or...

...the OP? I'm guessing the latter. ;)

[MADem]

228. I might be a bit old fashioned, but it's not normal in my family for children to

leave the nest to move to North Carolina "after their sophmore year in high school." That just wouldn't happen. I believe the term "Over my dead body" would be uttered at some point.

I do think this young woman had a tumultuous upbringing, for whatever reasons.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Young people get into all kinds of shit these days in order to have a LOT of fast money

And young women are degrading themselves more each day.

[JI7]

31. not true, MOST young women would not do this

there are many young women who are far more attractive than this Kristen person and could get a lot more by doing things from taking off their clothes, sex , etc.

but most of them decide they would rather get paid less to do things like flipping burgers than sell their bodies.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. I know, but have you visited a club lately?

It's not a pretty situation the way women are degrading and humiliating themselves in front of men.

[mondo joe]

41. I never knew Phyllis Schlafly had a DU account.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. Oh boy, you really have an agenda. You've won yourself a trip to ignore

Goodbye

[mondo joe]

47. Good - it will be easier to point out your errors in thinking. NT

[JI7]

45. yes, i know how the clubs are, but it's their right to do what they want

i personally have never been into clubbing and the few times i went it was more just to tag along with friends.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. Naturally. I never said it's illegal did I?

I merely said it's humiliating to women, and it adds to the myth that women somehow like humiliating themselves.

[grasswire]

73. you don't even have to go to a club

Check out your local high school dances. Some schools shut down the dance when the grinding gets out of control. Others hire cops to use flashlights to make sure there isn't sex on the dance floor as girls put their hands on the floor to invite male dominance. Being "spotlighted" for violations is a goal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

94. To invite male dominance is an excellent explanation

Why do young women nowadays insist on degrading themselves prostitute-style? I just don't get it. It shows a great deal of low self-esteem and desperation.

[Matariki]

116. I know women who enjoy dancing.

I know women who've worked their way through college dancing. I've known women (and some men) who have worked as escorts and dominatrixes. Now, I realize that not every woman doing that type of work has the same experience, but most of the people I've known that have done that had their self respect intact and wouldn't call the work they did degrading. In fact some are quite insistent that they thought it was empowering. That is, they had a certain control over their audience.

Please don't tell me that you think they were not being honest, because that would just be projection on your part.

You should try reading some Annie Sprinkle or Karen Finley and expand your views.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

175. Oh you don't have to convince me that women are degrading themselves to pay for college

Young women are out there even degrading themselves for free, so why not go that special extra step and degrade themselves completely for pay? That's pretty much what's going on these days.

[rAVES]

286. You need your head checked... very bitter women...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

297. Oh great.

And your profile says what?

[MADem]

229. I'm not going to condemn the young woman without evidence. NT

[mitchum]

40. And she has a heart of gold!

She's actually a spoiled Jersey Princess from a privileged background

[MADem]

62. Anyone who would go into that line of work has issues IMO. NT

[riderinthestorm]

128. I've worked with enough women at crisis center's to know that is the truth

I challenge anyone on this thread to state that "their mother/father is a prostitute or their daughter/son is a prostitute" in any culture on the face of the planet and tell me that they are proud of it.

Anyone trying to reconcile prostitution as some kind of individualized free speech zone is just nuts. Nobody wants any part of their family involved in this. Intrinsically, gut-wise, we KNOW prostitution is degrading.

[seabeyond]

134. "their mother/father is a prostitute or their daughter/son is a prostitute"

this is the thing. people know it. and they refuse to be honest. they demand a respect, instead of just owning up and saying they chose it, back off. instead they (mainly men) insist the sex worker be respected. not a single man could argue when they said it was no different than working at mcdonalds or a secretary that they would be proud their daughter chose to be a prostitute. BUT... they cannot accept the reality of that because then they cannot dehumanize the prostitute or the stripper to satisfied their personal needs.

"Intrinsically, gut-wise, we KNOW prostitution is degrading."

[MADem]

222. Excellent points, and well articulated. NT

[TalkingDog]

11. So who are you referring to? Movie Stars or Politicians?

Prostitution, IMHO, is at least upfront in it's blatant exchange of money for services.

I never understood people's opinion that its degrading. Of course I regularly teach nude figure drawing classes and have done a fair bit of nude modeling for said classes. So, go figure, I take money to be naked in front of not one, but a whole room full of people.

[lonestarnot]

19. Hoy boy...

I took an acting class as an undergrad and thought that was an experience! :P

[TalkingDog]

64. It is the most difficult thing I've ever done.....physically.

If you want a taste, just get yourself somewhere comfortable....(models don't always get to choose the pose, but I'll be nice because it's you)

And then don't move any part, except to blink and breathe, for 25 minutes. Take a 5 minute break, then do it again. Repeat for another hour. Every body I know who has done any modelling says the same thing. And I get professional dancers, rock climbers, martial arts buffs....

As far as the naked. Trust me. Having been on both sides of the fence: As a student, I can tell you its about as exciting as drawing a bowl of fruit and as a model you feel like you might as well be a coat rack. And the absolute worst is a cold room. You get chilly sitting still for so long anyway, but a cold room is like death.

[lonestarnot]

76. I can appreciate that! I would need a crowbar to get me up to my feet.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. What's not degrading about setting a price for the use and humiliation of private parts? nt

[mondo joe]

33. Not all of us think genitals have magical powers to degrade. Your little fetish is

more suitable to a Puritan than a Progressive.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. Women are already humiliated enough, to have women like these give a message that

degrading women is somehow "okay" with women. And you are adding to this bullshit myth that prostitution and humiliating women is somehow "okay."

[mondo joe]

55. I don't know how much you have to hate sex to think it's degrading.

If you're degraded it's because you let yourself be degraded.

[TalkingDog]

57. Pardon the pun, but that is a slippery slope argument

Define:

Private Parts

Use

Humiliation

When you can develop a scenario that only applies to genitalia and sexual intercourse and cannot be construed as having any other possible application, then I will consider your argument.

Otherwise, I will suggest, gently, that when you say Private Parts that could be read as feet, hands or any other body part considered taboo or "forbidden" in the history of humankind.

When you say Use, I might counter that given that Private Parts can apply to any body part (re: above), then a full body massage sinks to a deep level of degredation, because one person is paying for exquiste pleasure from another by using said body parts. Figure modeling, cooking, breast feeding, etc... can all be read within the wide open terms you have set.

And as for humiliation...... again gently, I suggest this might be your issue. Some people would be humiliated by cooking, figure modeling or breast feeding.

I don't know if she feels or ever felt humiliated by having men pay her for sexual encounters.

Everything you have posted on this has been based on your reading of a social construct.

Not everyone adheres to or finds value in those particular social constructs.

I find prostitution disturbing for many many reasons, none of them having anything to do with sex or money or the exchange thereof.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

96. The reason they're private parts is because you do NOT display them as if they were

the domain of others.

[mitchum]

20. "Hey, I should be getting paid for those pictures....blow is like expensive, y'know?"

That's where her real outrage over this stems from

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. I'm beginning to think this woman has no self-respect and money rules her brain

Perhaps she doesn't mind doing anything for money and wants a career in porn. Who knows?

[Kutjara]

43. Maybe.

And it's anyone's business but her own because....?

[JI7]

59. whatever it is, i certainly don't view her as any victim

[TreasonousBastard]

65. You're making an unwarranted assumption that...

such sex work is automatically degrading. Quite a few nude models, dancers, porn stars and prostitutes would disagree, although everyone knows that it is dangerous work in many ways and abuses are far more common than in most other lines of work.

Is a hand model degrading herself by selling views of her manicured hands to sell nail polish? Lingerie models? Is any model degrading herself selling her body parts for display? Somehow explicity bringin sex into the work semms to make it degrading, sinful, or otherwise wrong, and I think we should look first to our attitudes toward sex before making assumptions.

So, here's a mediocre singer who managed to find a way to make a couple hundred thousand a year by making men happy. If she made money making men happy by serving them food or booze, or singing them happy songs, it would be OK, right? So, what specifically makes it wrong by adding sex into the equation, while acknowledging that high end prostitutes sometimes spend the night with a guy and not have sex at all.

Right or wrong, this woman had a private life and a job, and suddenly she's puished into the harsh limelight with the world calling her Spitzer's whore. No matter what any of us may think of her occupation, she still has the right to object to such publicity.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

97. Of course it's degrading. What's not degrading about selling what is probably most

emotional and private about oneself?

[ConsAreLiars]

70. Yeah, having sex is the same as being degraded. Damn all those libertines

and free (or otherwise) fuckers. Sex IS EVIL AND DEGRADING. So you say. Ask yourself, how sick are you to believe that.

(edit to fix stuff)

[seabeyond]

83. NO ONE said sex is and you know it. false, empty, made up arguement

that is about stupid.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. True. It is an empty, false argument nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

100. Sex is evil and degrading when one is USED FOR IT.

Sex is to share with people you care about. For a woman to let anyone use your private parts like a frikkin' subway turnstile with people who have a token, shows a clear hatred for oneself, and a clear hatred for femaleness.

[JVS]

71. Just because I like drinking beer doesn't mean I'd want to have a picture of me drinking beer...

on the dollar bill. Why shouldn't she be allowed some privacy?

[mondo joe]

72. Just the same, if there was a dollar bill with a picture of you drinking beer, I'd

convert a lot of money into that denomination.

Or even if it was some other guy having a beer. :-)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

102. She doesn't want any. Prostitutes sell their bodies. What's private about that? nt

[JVS]

217. Selling is not the same as giving. If you want to see her, you can pay like anyone else

[JI7]

74. btw Sarah, the person who most humiliated themselves was Eliot Spitzer

he was the married man who got selfish and cheated on his wife. he made an ass out of himself. he was governor for less than 2 fucking years.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

103. He's not a woman. It's women that have to endure sexism, and women who degrade themselves to men &

publicly, are being the very antithesis of feminism.

[Matariki]

118. self delete

[Sarah Ibarruri]

120. Women are not victims. They are victimized by societies that make up all kinds of excuses

for victimizing and pretend it's all normal and natural.

[Matariki]

123. In some circumstances, like war torn Iraq, I'd agree with what you are saying

A high paid escort, I don't think she is degrading herself. Only in eyes of people like you.

And if you think she's hurting herself so badly, or being victimized, then is the proper reaction the 'disrespect' and vitriol you are showing?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

138. A person that doesn't have to degrade herself, but merely chooses it, is still degrading herself

I have far more respect for women who have little choice and do it because it's either that or starvation, than I do for someone who could do something else but is doing it voluntarily.

[JI7]

142. that's because you aren't holding him responsible

why not turn it around and show him to be the fool that he was and the shame he caused himself and his family .

he is the biggest ass in all of this.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

167. He's not degrading himself, as men are not the ones suffering sexism

If they were, we'd be having an entirely different discussion.

[JI7]

202. you don't think he made an ass out of himself

he is a fucking embarrassment, a JOKE . he degraded himself. much more than the prostitute did.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

275. Men are on top, so to speak. They're not the ones that endure and have endured a history of sexism

They don't have to work towards respect. They automatically get it. Women have to DEMAND respect, rather than spreading their legs, pointing and saying, "Put it here for money." It's sickening.

[Lorien]

246. He's not? Hell, what he did is far more embarrassing than what she did

He felt the need to PAY for sex and break his marriage vows. Pathetic. She made in an hour more than I make in three weeks. It's only degrading to her if she feels degraded.

[seabeyond]

247. i agree. he is plenty pathetic. n/t

[On the Road]

75. Relative Anonymity is Not Only Possible,

it's frequently important.

I've had conversations with prostitutes a number of times. I asked one, who described herself as a socialite, if she wasn't worried about being recognized. "Oh, it's all out-of-town businessmen," she said. That made them anonymous and unimportant to her. It would have been a catastrophe for it to be all over the media.

Spitzer's prostitute went from being viewed only as a partially obscured picture by interested parties to beeing leered at by every gawker on Fox News in the country. You can't see the difference? I think you're allowing words (such as "degrading") to get in the way of understanding a perfectly natural human reaction.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

104. If you're selling your body to various individuals, and you expect to keep your body selling private

you're either very ignorant, very stupid, or secretly hoping you get degraded by being exposed publicly. Or maybe it's a thing with some prostitutes that they like the fact that it's degrading and humiliating to sell your body that way. As if women were not already degraded by virtue of sexism, they also need to add that shit to the mix. Lovely.

[On the Road]

154. I Suspect People Like Kristen

really, really want anonymity from the kind of attitude you are expressing. It's far worse than anything they're likely to get from a john.

And while secrecy is never a certainty, it's a reasonable expectation. How many other call girls are all over the evening news?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

160. Anyone who is engaging in degradation who expects anonymity is certainly

taking a gigantic risk of being found out, since they're charging for degrading themselves, something quite embarrassing (or which ought to be embarrassing). Also, prostitutes do get arrested, whether they choose to charge more or less money, or call themselves prostitutes or call girls (in a pretend attempt to make it seem they're not degrading themselves as much).

[On the Road]

262. As This Conversation Goes On,

the depth of your loathing is becoming really astounding.

[Name removed]

299. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[On the Road]

313. Which One of Us in This Conversation

is being demeaning to women -- actual women rather than an abstract idea of womanhood?

[madokie]

78. I don't think any of it is any of my business or anyone elses except those involved

but that just me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

105. Yeah well, there it is all over the press & her atty is milking it for $$ nt

[kiva]

79. I don't agree.

Just because she agreed to have sex for money doesn't mean she wants that choice to become public--many of us do things in private that we don't want splashed across the pages of a tabloid. Her choice doesn't degrade me, or any other woman, it simply reflects the reality that as long as men are willing to pay for sex, some women will choose to make the bargain.

[treestar]

89. Everyone takes the risk they will suddenly become famous

By dealing with Spitzer, she took that risk.

Most of us want people to know what we do for a living. The media isn't going to make a special category for this lady's profession.

It's also illegal, and she knew that (though maybe it should be legal, but for now it is not, she knew that and took that risk.)

[mondo joe]

90. Everyone takes the risk, so there's nothing to do about that. But like anyone else, she still has

a right to desire her privacy and to try to protect it to the degree she still can.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. Precisely nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

80. Although she prostituted herself, it doesn't make her an exhibitionist. She had sex with her clients

in private.

[seabeyond]

81. WAIT... thread after thread male telling me this female PROUD of

what she does. there is no issue for her. she is totally comfortable with this job. this job is no different than a secretary at a desk being paid.

[mondo joe]

92. A moment please: No matter what her job or how she feels about it, that doesn't necessarily

result in her wanting to have every detail of her life on the front pages.

People do generally desire some privacy, or control of what in their life is spread far and wide.

[uppityperson]

82. Yeah, damn those anorexic models anyways! Degrading themselves that way, they deserve all the

nastiness they get. Why pretend you're not degrading yourself when you've done nothing but that?

[AngryAmish]

84. Those publications stole from her

Whenever you capture an image under the law you have a copyright on it. It does not matter if you post it on your myspace or whatever. Many for profit organizations (NY Post, AP, NYTimes, etc.) took her image and money off of it by selling papers.

There is a fair use exception but taking all the pictures is theft.

She is upset because she could have sold those pics. They stole from her just as much as if they stole her car or her shoes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

107. It's all about money nt

[DainBramaged]

108. This is too much, she contributes to the demise of a Governor, his family, his staff

the Democratic party and the residents of NY State (she could have said NO, but SHE is a prostitute not a paramour, who BROKE the law, and saved her own ass by cutting a deal) and SHE is the victim because some sleazy talent lawyer says she is?

Priorities, something lacking on DU lately.:eyes:

[mondo joe]

112. Don't blame her for Spitzer's folly. She's only responsible for what she did - not what

he did. She's not the governor.

[DainBramaged]

113. SHE broke the law, ILLEGAL gain , and she should be defended for the press "stealing" her pictures?

This fucking place is upside down. Too many Cons injecting bullshit here.

[mondo joe]

114. Even people who break the law have legal rights. That includes her.

I don't know why you think protecting rights is a "Con" thing to do.

For what it's worth, I'm confident Spitzer was targeted by Republicans and/or their allies. But Spitzer fucked up, giving them something to exploit.

That's not the prostitute's fault, and it in no way diminishes her own rights.

[seabeyond]

115. what is her right? not to be known as a prostitute. that isnt a right

right not to be put in front of a camera when she is part of the story. not her right either. we dont get those rights.

i was in an accident. i didnt want the news crew filming me at that horrible time. they got to. i had no right to privacy

what right are you demanding for her

[mondo joe]

127. She has the same right as anyone else to seek to protect her privacy and assets.

If her photos are misappropriated she has the right to address it. I'm not saying anyone HAS done that - I'm saying IF.

If she has any opportunity to protect any shred of privacy, she has the right to take it. Again, IF.

I'm not demanding any right for her that isn't shared by everyone else.

[DainBramaged]

117. Her rights to what, make a fortune on our bad fortune?

the bad fortune of Spitzer's family? The residents of NY state as the GOP plots to take back the Governor's mansion in 2010? So she can finance her $11,000 a month apartment on her back?


SHE broke the law. SHE doesn't have the rights you or I have, because SHE broke the law. And because SHE broke the law doesnt make her eligible to profit from it.

She has the right to remain silent. Anything she says can be used against her in a court of law. And she has the right to an attorney (which she has, and a high priced one at that).

I have NO sympathy for her. I hope she loses as much as everyone else in this sordid affair.

[mondo joe]

124. The difference between her and Spitzer is this: She's just incidental. If another

prostitute was assigned to Spitzer he'd be in the exact same position. She's not to blame for his choice.

She has the right to protect her assets, same as anyone else. Your anger at her doesn't change that.

[riderinthestorm]

130. Nope, she put herself out there on Myspace and other public places

she wanted to be a public persona. Fair game.

[mondo joe]

131. What's fair game is fair game. No objection, no disagreement.

Is there a specific issue at hand? Is she just complaining - if so, everyone has that right, whether it does any good or not.

[riderinthestorm]

132. She wanted to be a public persona ( an R&B artist)

So her Myspace pages have been taken by the MSM and she has no recompense. Try to follow along.

IMO

[mondo joe]

133. So what's the big deal?

Her photos are aired in some way. She complains.

It's not a Constitutional crisis.

I don't see the problem.

[riderinthestorm]

136. Nope, it's not a crisis. Just another woman exploited against her will.

I guess I just have hugged/loved/interacted with women and men who've been on the short side of the stick.

Unless one can say that they would be proud for their mother/father, son/daughter, neice/nephew, to be in this situation, it's all just rhetoric.

It's painful and wrong. And if you can't see it, then you can't. I've taken these people into my hearts and home and I KNOW what I know. Their stories ARE a problem and can't be so easily brushed aside.

[mondo joe]

137. I'm not her enemy.

Or yours.

I think her legal rights should be protected.

[riderinthestorm]

143. Such sympathy. We should all have such friends. nt

[mondo joe]

144. We should all have our rights protected. NT

[riderinthestorm]

151. But her public photos are fair game.

She has no rights to being indignant as she published the photos of herself being a hooker herself. Your self righteousness notwithstanding, and my irritated feminism notwithstanding, she's done herself in. She published them. on. Myspace.

Capiche?

[mondo joe]

152. A small disagreement: she has the right to be indignant.

It won't do her any good, but she has the right to be indignant.

She'll no doubt seek to gain whatever advantage she can, as is also her right.

I don't begrudge her what she did for a living, or her efforts to look after her own interests now.

[riderinthestorm]

162. She put herself out there. Your (misplaced) puritan indignation on her behalf

is quaint. Good luck with that.

I won't be able to look into this thread much longer. Rural dial-up problems as they are, I face computer freeze if I go much beyond 150 on a thread count.... Best wishes on your crusade.

[mondo joe]

164. Um, what puritan indignation are you talking about?

[SidDithers]

179. LOL...first time I've seen YOU called a puritan in all this...

FWIW, I agree with you, and I wish the focus was on Spitzer for cheating, and not on the prostitute.

Cheers.

Sid

[mondo joe]

182. I can only assume the poster has mistaken me for someone else, or has possibly

misunderstood a post of mine.

I would be the odd Puritan indeed - gay, pro choice, pro-ownership of your own body, pro pleasure, pro civil rights, atheist.

:shrug:

[JI7]

140. she put herself out there as a singer, not prostitute

Eliot put himself out there as going after prositution rings while he himself used those services himself.

is he special and deserves to be above the law ?

[JI7]

139. Eliot is a grown intelligent man, he is responsible for hurting his family and state

he would have fucked whoever was sent to him. if she had not been in prostitution they would have found someone else for him.

he should never have ran for Governor.

[DainBramaged]

141. He was duly elected by the citizens of NY

And was taken out by a few appointed hacks in the Republican run Justice department, circumventing the will of the people.


If that doesn't trouble all of you, we are in deep shit.

[JI7]

147. the people of NY didn't know he used prostitution services when they voted for him

and he himself voluntarily stepped down because he fucked up. and it's HIS OWN FAULT.

even if he was targeted by others which he obviously was he is still at fault because it's true what he did. it's not a set up.

[DainBramaged]

149. Of course, it doesn't trouble you at all, he was just another john

who happened to be Governor. NONE OF US KNOW the back story as to WHY he resigned. Embarrassment, hardly, what did they threaten him with?? But defend the hooker, she's innocent, just a tool to justify the means to his demise.:crazy:


I will bet you hoped for Bill Clinton to be impeached too.:mad:

[JI7]

153. you act as if he couldn't control himself

as for him resigning i am a big fan of Spitzer and what he has done for the people and i hope he can get back in public office again some day.

here is the problem , Spitzer himself would go after prostitution rings. and now he has ADMITTED to using one for himself. i ask you again, is he above the law. if not he should not go after others.

i don't think Bill Clinton should be impeached. and i was a big defender of his against the pukes.

[DainBramaged]

155. It's too late to be a "big fan" the will of the people was circumvented

by using a hooker to get to him. SHE gets to walk away, a 21st century Monica Lewinsky, without a stained dress. And the Repukes get yet another victory with dirty tricks while Harry "Hide 'em" Reid and Nancy Pelosi remain silent and allow Booshe to destroy the country and OUR politicians.

I hope in the end, she becomes just another joke punchline like Lewinsky.

[JI7]

157. was Eliot forced to pay for sex ?

did they put a gun to his head demanding he pay up thousands and go to a hotel to have sex with a prostitute ?

[DainBramaged]

159. (sigh) we're done, goodnight

Ask yourself one simple question, who's next??

Cya

[seabeyond]

163. i have been listening and i agree. it is not just clinton and this man and sex

i hear what you are saying. was agreeing iwth what you said then got to point i thought you were suggesting the prostitute was a set up.... but yes... i hear ya

[JI7]

166. who is next ? i hope they aren't people like Eliot who went after prositution

rings while using the services themselves.

[seabeyond]

158. i thought he had been using prostitutes for years? are you suggesting the prostitute

was a set up to get him? i havent heard that and i have not followed the specifics in this story. so i really dont have much of a clue

[DainBramaged]

165. That is exactly what I am suggesting

Again, his sexual "needs" made him a perfect target.

Who is next??

We're the Liberals. Vitter and Craig still have their jobs and Reid and Pelosi are silent.

Who's next.

THEY GOT A FUCKING GOVERNOR.

Who's next?

[seabeyond]

168. wow. now that is interesting

hm....

[DainBramaged]

174. As it sinks in around here and in Congress people will realize

that the Booshe Justice Department "got" a sitting Governor.

There is NO limit to how low or what means they will use to reach the end, and they got their target, the most Liberal and anti-corporate politician in recent history.


Think about that.

[seabeyond]

180. NO limit to how low or what means they will use to reach the end

well, i am totally in agreement with that. and i took it that he was being targeted by bushco repugs for those reasons. jsut specifically putting that prostitute out to get him adn like her on their payroll, hm.... but anyway

thanks

will keep eyes and ears open

[Sarah Ibarruri]

181. You do make sense. Scary. In fact, you know what?

He was going after the bigwhigs in corporations. He was attacking the big shots. They set him up with this female who loves to degrade herself for money.

[JI7]

225. poor little Eliot, forced to give money for sex

[Sarah Ibarruri]

272. You're right. Males should keep their d*** in their pants, however, do you know any that do? nt

[JI7]

278. yes, there are many guys who don't cheat on wives/girlfriends

including attractive ones who could easily get almost any woman and don't have to pay for it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

279. Glad to hear you're so sure :-)

Till now I didn't know anyone that could be so sure.

[JI7]

280. you view men as being unable to control their sexual urges

and blame women for victimizing them into wanting sex.

that's the Taliban view.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

281. Men as a group on this planet have not endured subjugation, humiliation, etc. at

the hands of women. It's been quite the other way around, and, in fact, men have expected of each other to exploit, use. and mistreat women. In other words, to wield their power over women. Don't tell me you haven't noticed sex is a part of that. Please don't tell me you haven't noticed. Thanks.

[JI7]

282. Spitzer is the one people are seeing as a joke to laugh at

why don't you join in and laugh at him rather than viewing him as a victim.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

283. Actually not really. Spitzer screwed a lot of mega-rich thieves up the @$$

which made a lot of us very happy. We've already done our laughter at these Wall Street thieves and have no laughter left.

[JI7]

284. it made me happy also, i like what he did and i'm sorry to see him go

that's why i'm angry he fucked it all up by involving himself in prostitution ring. now he is seen as a joke by most people.

i hope he turns things around because we really need someone like him fighting for us.

but he did wrong here. and i'm not talking about the sex in itself as doing it through prostitution which is illegal and something HE PROSECUTED.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

287. We're on the same page there.

I also wish he hadn't.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

169. You might be right. Sounds like that woman that accused Clinton...

What was her name? That woman with the large nose that had plastic surgery once she got paid by the GOP. I don't recall her name. Anyway, she was in the employ of the GOP to lie about Bill Clinton and therefore add fuel to the Monica's blue dress fire.

[DainBramaged]

176. Linda Tripp

Who's mother lives a few miles away from here. She was a scumbag of the 'enth degree, and was ground up and spit out by the Reich wing when they were done with her.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

183. Her too, but I meant PAULA JONES! That large-nosed woman the GOP hired....

.. and in exchange they paid for her nose job. Remember her?

[DainBramaged]

186. OMG I forgot about her

She sued to try and get Bill Clinton, and her suit was thrown out I think, wait I need to google her.

OK on edit





Does she look like the Boink-E or what?? Scary huh?

Paula Corbin Jones (born Paula Rosalee Corbin on September 17, 1966, in Lonoke, Arkansas) is a former Arkansas state employee who sued President Bill Clinton for sexual harassment and eschewal. Eventually, the court dismissed the lawsuit, before trial, on the grounds that Jones failed to demonstrate any damages. However, while the dismissal was on appeal, Clinton entered into an out-of-court settlement by agreeing to pay Jones $850,000.

The impeachment trial of President Clinton on perjury and obstruction of justice charges was based on statements he made during the depositions for the Paula Jones lawsuit. The specific statements were about the nature of his relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, with whom he denied having a sexual relationship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Jones

[Sarah Ibarruri]

188. I forgot about the Linda Tripp creature! All doing crap for money! nt

[Slagathor]

411. Did you just type that?

that's pretty disgraceful behavior here. I'll bet you're fat.

[JI7]

212. WTF , as if the man has no control over taking his pants off

and hwere he puts his fucking dick.

[mondo joe]

170. The will of the people in an election does not place the governor above the law.

Though Spitzer may well have been targeted - even criminally so - it doesn't change the fact that he broke the law himself.

And it's not the fault of the prostitute.

[DainBramaged]

178. Fine, you keep thinking that way

We may never know who her real "pimp" was.

But you do, of course.:eyes:

[mondo joe]

184. It wouldn't change the fact that he's broken the law.

And not in an ambiguous way.

What exactly are the people of NY to do - refuse to accept his resignation?

[DainBramaged]

192. Yup

But the whore breaking the law, that's ok with you? And her getting immunity, that's ok with you? And her possibly being part of an entrapment scheme, that's ok with you?

Who is the Liberal here?

On edit,

Is it ok with you that billions of dollars have been stolen from the Iraq Defense fund? Who should pay for that crime(s)? Or is that "victimless" too, just like prostitution is supposed to be?

On edit,

his wife has forgiven him, and she hasn't announced she's divorcing him, why should the people of NY who voted for him accept his resignation??

[mondo joe]

198. Mmm, not quite:

I've said previously I don't particularly care about him using a prostitute. It's not an issue for me. Nor do I care particularly about her being a prostitute. I think they both did something that ought to be legal. Spitzer may have a separate issue with his wife regarding infidelity but that's between them, not me.

If there was an entrapment scheme it's not okay.

If there was selective prosecution (which I think is much more likely than entrapment), it's not okay.

But even so, his breaking the law IS a problem, and the prostitute s just a pawn in the matter. It could as easily have been another prostitute.

If there was entrapment, or selective prosecution, it must be investigated and shown and prosecuted.

[MADem]

259. The "whore" --as you term the woman--is irrelevant in the big picture.

They have Spitzer on a federal WIRETAP. They have him moving money into a shell account.

If it wasn't this particular "whore" that he ordered up like a pizza, it would have been some other "whore." Who would have been equally motivated to cut a deal and testify before a grand jury for immunity. That's WHY she testified--she wasn't interested in going to jail, as "whores" often do. That was the "price" she had to pay for her conduct.

I think it's rather curious that you're so angry at this particular "whore." Like it is HER fault that Spitzer couldn't keep his fucking dick in his pants, and had to spend eighty grand at a "VIP" whorehouse.

It's a bit telling, and not in a very nice way, frankly.

The Iraq Defense fund has nothing to do with this case. Are we to forget about all petty crimes, from burglaries to robberies to assault and battery, to failing to pay one's excise tax, simply because the Iraq War remains an issue?

The people of NY are disgusted by his HYPOCRISY, his "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude. That's why he left--because there was an OVERWHELMING call for him to so do.

The new governor will do fine. And the odds are good he won't be fucking around on the job, either.

[DainBramaged]

397. The new Governor is an ADULTERER

Talk about hypocrisy. Spitzer was fucked by a few appointed men who circumvented the will of the people of the State of NY over a WHORE.

Deal with it. It will forever be the tactic of the Reich wing to use our sexually Liberal attitudes against us.

[MADem]

406. So's the new First Lady. It's THEIR business.

No one spent eighty grand and laundered money in a prostitution enterprise, which is illegal in most states in the USA, in that scenario, did they?

I don't think the Democratic Party has a universal approach to prostitution. "Sexually Liberal attitudes" aren't issued when one registers as a Democrat because one feels that it is the duty of the nation to take care of the poor and the aged.

Your assumption that this is the case gravely weakens your argument.

And as for scandals, they're Equal Opportunity. Ask David Vitter, Larry Craig, Bob Livingston, Mark Foley, Bob Packwood...etc., etc.

[Matariki]

407. Heh - at least the Democrats sex scandals involve grown adults

which should be their own business...

[tyedyeto]

298. Either did Foley or Craig or any other Repug who has been caught

But not only do they keep their Congressional seat, they are now vindicated for their indiscressions.

Why are only the Repugs getting a break??????

If you can't answer this basic question, I have to question your political beliefs.

[NashVegas]

126. I Think She Made a Calculated Move In Going Public, And It's Backfired On Her

The minute she confirmed her identity to the press, she lost all control of her image.

I wouldn't be surprised if she was trying to cash in the infamy in exchange for a record deal, but who knows?

At any rate she violated an escorts' rule: discretion.

[mondo joe]

129. Possibly. I don't know of any specific legal issue. If she's just complaining - well, we all have

the right to do that.

[MADem]

257. HE broke the law, too. Or are you forgetting that? NT

[JI7]

135. Spitzer himself contributed to his political suicide

[noamnety]

201. Oh, please.

He is not her victim. He made a decision to pick up the phone and call for a prostitute.

[Rex]

86. It is the same double standard that lets Playboy and Penthouse sell

magazines (because it is about the 1st amendment doncha know) and yet when it comes down to the dirty, well pron is illegal (yet I can get some pron right now on PPV on dish network so...). I think it is about the fact that this country enforces sexy bodies but not sex. It is why we end up with fuckwads like George Bush and Dick Cheney.

[Balbus]

87. A lot of stuff people do or feel amazes me...

But in the end - it's none of my business. Or yours.

[AZBlue]

88. First of all, "degrading herself" by being a prostitute is a label you've put on it, not her.

Plus, why isn't she entitled to privacy and a life without media invasion, no matter what she does for a living.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world.....

Women were never allowed a fair sharing of the wealth. All they were allowed to obtain a way to survive is to subjugate themselves to a male, and/or humiliate themselves sexually. That's why prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. Men have always been too willing to pay women to subjugate and humiliate themselves that way, even when they refused to pay them for any other job. For women to STILL be engaging in something that was used in times when women could do nothing else to put food in their bellies, is sickening, humiliating and, most of all, anti-feminist.

[burythehatchet]

93. I have so much more respect for her, than for you. She hasn't shown me the

"ugly to the bone" quality that you have displayed so abundantly on this thread.

Given your protestations, I would venture to guess that prostitution holds a very deep fascination for you. Don't ignore your essence.

Just as a matter of objective fact, we are all whores, some of us are more accepting of that reality while others pretend to be morally superior.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

110. I notice that you're male and mostly it's male that defend women who are making money by

degrading and subjugating themselves to males. Oh well...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

331. i am not a man and i firmly stick by what burythehatchet said. nt

[seabeyond]

332. self deleted

[La Lioness Priyanka]

334. you're such a fucking asshole. at no point did my profile say stripper, nor was i ever a stripper

[seabeyond]

337. then i apologize and gonna correct my post. i am

not out to lie about anyone. i did read a profile and the name is awfully similar to yours. but you say no, that is good enough for me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

339. i still stick with the fact that you are an asshole and its people like you who degrade women

because apparently unless they follow your mores clearly they dont deserve respect.

[lildreamer316]

349. That would be ME. BTW, proudly a FEMALE stripper/adult entertainer. n/t

[seabeyond]

352. yes that would be you

and you did not change our profile and i would have not said a thing to you, cause there would not have been a reason. i made a mistake in names.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

330. brilliant.

:hi:

[Matariki]

121. You need to expand your idea of feminism. You speak as if women were natural born victims.

As if people working in the sex industry had no will of their own. The humiliation is occurring in your mind

Let me guess, you're the type who used to called girls who liked sex 'sluts', right? And let me guess, because they 'gave it away' you had no respect for them?

I'm a woman, btw, AND a dyed in the wool 50 year old feminist.

[GOPBasher]

122. Because now it's in public; of course that's different.

She wasn't in the public eye before, and I'm sure her family didn't know about it. Now everyone does. Don't judge people like that -- times are rough and people need money to live. I think Spitzer is scummy, but I wouldn't judge that girl.

[debbierlus]

148. It isn't the entire world's business and it isn't for any of us to judge

People degrade themselve in all kinds of ways. Should we all be put up for mass public scrutiny because it was degrading?

It is only because the public eats it up like leeches to blood. THAT is pretty degrading to the people who watch and judge.

And, it is why society is so FUCKED>

[Sarah Ibarruri]

177. Yes, people might degrade themselves, but it's WOMEN who have a world history of

being abused, tortured, discriminated against, raped, humiliated, starved, beaten, murdered, classified as inferior among almost all cultures of the planet, etc. etc. etc. It's up to us women to DEMAND respect and stop playing welcome-mat-for-money.

[Zorra]

150. She's just another greedy, phony republican. Not amazing at all. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

171. I think you're correct, and, judging from the long list of GOP pervs.....

This prostitute is another GOP perv.

[Xenotime]

156. Is that how you see people? "Body parts?"

[tomreedtoon]

161. It's economics. She's waiting for someone to meet her price.

DUUUUUHHH!

It's the same traditional economics that women have always used on men. You can "get it" when you put up enough committment, physical goods and unwarranted emotional support.

Exactly when did everybody forget that the sexes are at war, and withholding is one of the main weapons women use?

[seabeyond]

172. why do you hate women? n/t

[tomreedtoon]

191. Because women hate all men.

It's called "the battle of the sexes" for a reason.

[seabeyond]

194. geez and my hubby and two sons didnt know that. all along they thought i LOVED them

go figure

[tomreedtoon]

231. Self-delusion is an amazing thing.

If people could be convinced that George Bush was a good possibility for President, and that video games don't teach violence, they can be convinced that men and women are friends. It takes dedication to look past the lies that we live in our daily lives. Hopefully you have taken the first step to enlightenment, and you can begin hating and scheming to kill men like the rest of your sisters.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

173. This is a perfect example of why women degrading themselves are aiding to degrade all women

Read through this at the sexism inherent in it.

Women need to respect themselves and stop using themselves and their bodies as doormats for pay.

[tomreedtoon]

195. You sell what you have.

As a very stern science fiction book said a long time ago - voiced by a female character - "Everybody sells what they have to get what they want. Men their brains, women their bodies. It's better than hypocracy."

That may be a simplification, but do you think this woman would be able to get a job at Oak Ridge Laboratories? She chose to sell the one commodity she has. I personally think she's stupid for doing so, because there are thousands of cautionary tales about what happens when you conduct such transactions. But she did it anyway. Her choice, her loss.

[seabeyond]

199. so not only are all women whores, but they dont have brains where as men have the brains

to sell

[tomreedtoon]

230. Well, not only that, but men are not sexy.

Women own sex. Men are grubby little things with delusions of competence, and even greater delusions of attractiveness. Like my original post said, saying it is better than being a hypocrite.

[seabeyond]

241. what is really sad....

it took a lot of posts from you in ridiculous, to think it is possible that you are just teasing... or making a point through sarcasm or extreme. after a week on this board listening to men, you are saying things that are right there with what men have said and they are not goshin....

[tomreedtoon]

285. I can't afford that sarcasm icon.

You rich people can say whatever the hell you want and throw that icon on it, which makes it "all right." I don't.

I am honest about that. Women own sex and have nothing but contempt for men. Men are jerks who delude themselves. And yes, I am a man. Perhaps the only honest man in the world. I can't even put the pieces of my heart in a sack, because it's been pulverized into dust and just leaks out everywhere. What I believe, I've learned through real-life experience.

And please don't say "get help." There is no help for reality.

[seabeyond]

304. i am sorry

i am sorry you feel that way, have been hurt to feel that way.

i hope things get better for you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

273. That is "THE" most sexist comment I've heard in a while....

"Everybody sells what they have to get what they want. Men their brains, women their bodies. It's better than hypocracy."

It makes me vomit.

[LeftyMom]

196. This sounds like the "you can't rape a whore" argument with a dash of "she deserves it"

It's not any less disgusting and wrong coming from a woman.

[noamnety]

203. Yep.

I would not like to see Sarah on the jury for a rape trial.

[seabeyond]

204. that is so not fair.

are you comparing this womans willingness to sell her body the same compassion as a rape victim?

confused

[noamnety]

211. That's not what I'm saying.

Upthread, Sarah couldn't say for sure whether it's possible to rape a prostitute - Sarah's got the attitude that if you consent once to one act, your body in effect is public property.

I would not like to see her on a jury for that reason, because she believes some women might be unrapable.

http://feministing.com/archives/008186.html

[seabeyond]

215. if you are paid for sex.... how do you know where rape begins

is about the closest i got that she said a prostitute cant be raped. and didnt sound like that at all. further i think there are some strng points, pragmatic and fundamental points further down in that subthread she makes about the violence against women.

no... i dont think sarah would be a bad choice on a rape case

[noamnety]

221. That comment would make me not want her on the jury.

Consenting to one act, once, doesn't mean the woman is unrapable. That shouldn't have anything to do with money. If a woman agrees to sex, then changes her mind - even partway through that act - if the man persists, it becomes rape. (swap genders as desired here)

If she consents to intercourse, and then, say, it hurts - she has the right to stop. If she consented to one position/orifice and the guy demands to do something else, she has the right to stop. Even if money exchanged hands. Contractually, she'd have to give back the money, but sex is one of those things where at the moment you no longer consent, it's not consent. Either party needs to be able to back out of the "contract," and if they can't, it's rape.

Sarah's frame of mind supports the notion that it's not rape if a husband forces himself on his wife - that he has consent. Even if he threatens or uses violence, it's not rape if they are married. "until 1993 North Carolina law stated that "a person may not be prosecuted under this article if the victim is the person's legal spouse at the time of the commission of the alleged rape or sexual offense unless the parties are living separate and apart." http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32701

There are specific reasons why her logic is so objectionable.

I'm not in favor of legalizing prostitution, I definitely see it as exploitative, and as promoting dehumanization of women, and violence against women. But I think she's coming at it from a particular harmful point of view when she implies that a woman who makes the choice to be a prostitute deserves less legal protections than any other woman. When she starts acting like some women maybe kinda deserve to be raped with no recourse, I have to question her commitment to fighting against gendered violence.

[seabeyond]

239. good points on the rape, but

i think from the little that she said in that post, you have given her a lot and accused a lot and i dont know you can decide these things about sarah's thinking and conclude so readily.

there were points on the rape that i hadnt thought about between what yawl were talking.

i think as the finger is pointed at sarah for judge, so it can be with conclusions about sarah in these this subthread. i dont know though. but that is the thing, i dont know.

[mondo joe]

233. Anyone like Sarah who doesn't understand CONSENT doesn't belong on a rape jury -

or any other jury.

[seabeyond]

240. yes no yes no yes no yes no yes ........ NOOOOOOO

i dont readily give it to the female you know. the way i view rape is not so totally female or victim. that in itself is a WHOLE other issue. situation and particulars matter.

[mondo joe]

244. Once you've given consent to do one thing doesn't mean your consent is not

required to do another.

Once you have sex with someone doesn't mean they, or anyone else, never needs to get your consent again.

It's not a hard concept to understand.

[seabeyond]

245. ah, there is so much gray when it comes to sex and the two genders

lol lol have we switched positions now mondo, lol lol.

[mondo joe]

252. Not when it comes to rape. If you consent to have sex once it doesn't mean

no one needs your consent again.

I trust you know that wives can be raped by husbands - I trust that's not a gray area.

[seabeyond]

253. ooosh. now you man, are going to lecture me

who has been raped twice by man, what rape is.....

well

why dont we all just write up a contract on exactly what is going to be done with the body ahead of time so the agreement is clear for both parties to insure that there is nothing that comes up during the event that may take a consent to proceed

sex doesnt work that way

and if you are hitting bottom in your sarcasm to suggest i dont know that a wife or any other woman girl or boy can be raped at any given time....

well

i wont go to how pissed i just got.

but do keep making assumptions and stories and nontruths up to throw at those that dont agree with you.

[mondo joe]

260. I'm not lecturing you. I'm asking a question.

If you have a problem with the question, it's yours, not mine.

[seabeyond]

261. my whole issue with this subject is lack of honesty. no, i do not think it was a simple question

i think it was to imply that i (a person, better?) am (is) so repressed, puritan that i (a person) may believe a husband has the right to do whatever to a wife, an ownership.

just a guess, but that is the feel of the question

my whole problem with the sex worker goes to honesty with self.

[mondo joe]

264. Your response seems very personal, and more personal than I really

wish to be on a message board, so I'm dropping my end of the subthread.

[seabeyond]

265. you call women puritan (sexually oppressed) and i am personal?

you take the personal out of sex and now complain too personal.


nothing personal about sex. no different than talking about your job at mcdonalds.

[mondo joe]

266. Then you misunderstood:

1. Sarah is a Puritan because her obsession that others might be doing something she doesn't like are puritanical.

2. Your comments on rape are so personal that Idon't wish to discuss them on a message board.

3. Everything about your body is "personal" to the degree that you personally decide - a more apt word is individual. For some people talking about sex is no different than talking about your job at McDonalds. For others it's very private. Those are INDIVIDUAL distinctions people make for themselves.

[seabeyond]

267. damn good thing giving a guy a blow job isnt personal, *sigh*

the thing, ... i probably think of the rape about the same as you do the blow job. a long time ago and just an experience. good bad or ugly of it. no more.

anyway, lettin it go,

[mondo joe]

268. For some it is, for some its not. NT

[Warren Stupidity]

391. upthread the op agrees that she is not sure a prostitute can be raped.

Other than that you make a valid point.

And in case that insanity goes down the memory hole:

"I don't know. If she's there to have sex, how is the man supposed to not have sex with a woman who
is there to get paid to have sex?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3015908&mesg_id=3015951

[LostinVA]

236. That's exactly what her posts are about

It's disgusting.

[Lorien]

256. Sometimes our own gender are our worst enemies

:puke:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

291. Actually, what it is is pointing out that these women are making it clear they have

the self-esteem of a common garden slug and are giving other women an equally low status by association for being willingly degraded women.

[Matariki]

218. So, *did* you ever call girls or women who have multiple casual sex partners 'sluts'?

[Slagathor]

224. Sure do... call slutty men sluts too

people should have a little self respect and not be sluts.

[seabeyond]

243. equal opportunity gender. damn straight. oldest brother

slut rigt along witht he women he uses. lol lol. and before people get outraged i am dealing with a 15 yr old daughter that came out of one of those slutfest that has been fucked around by them for a decade and half just trying to survive.

[Matariki]

250. I'm more curious about what the OP has to say

but since you answered - why do you equate self respect with how many sex partners a person has?

What about people who are dating and haven't yet found one person they want to settle down with? What number do you draw the line at before you think a person has 'lost their self respect'?

And don't you think you are being rather judgmental in an area of people's lives that really isn't any of your business?

[Slagathor]

314. People's sexual relationships are the business of society

who pays for STDs in uninsured patients? who pays taxes that support welfare for single mothers raising children? who pays for treating the majority of HIV infections? and so on... how much, for example, is guardasil going to cost if we are going to vaccinate every single at risk person?

people's sexual habits can be costly to society. people should behave with responsibility. once people can fund the fallout of their sexual habits, then I'll butt out, but until then, it is my business.

and I'd say that anything over 20 partners during a 75 year lifetime is being slutty.

[seabeyond]

315. prostitution is NOT relationship, partnership.... it is selling the body. reading about iraq

all those women adn children that never wanted to be prostitutes now selling their body to pigs who are using them and dehumanizing them as human beings to do with however they want.... it is not a two way street. it is a man treating a body less than human to satisfy him

no relationship
no partnership
not about a woman enjoying sex sooooo much because her satisfaction is NOT factured in

[mondo joe]

419. Of course prostitution can be a sexual relationship.

If you mutually agree to have sex you've got a sexual relationship. It may be short term, but that's what it is.

[Matariki]

336. People like you ALWAYS find excuses to judge people, and try and control their sex lives.

[Slagathor]

393. Correct grammar = "such as" not "like"

unless you don't mean to include me in your idiotic statement.

[mondo joe]

420. Correct principle = "individual freedom" not "slave to society"

:hi:

[mondo joe]

390. What a peculiar fetish you have.

Do you apply your societal "concern" for people's diets? Their exercise habits? Their sporting activities?

[Slagathor]

392. Yes, yes and yes

People should try to be as responsible as they can be for the betterment of all.

[mondo joe]

394. Is there anything you feel people ought to have the freedom to purely personally

decide?

[Slagathor]

396. Sure... euthanasia (nt)

[mondo joe]

398. Hm, no individual freedom except to die. Sure you're at the right board?

[Matariki]

402. I think that would be the 'right to kill' as in put something out of it's misery

this person definitely seems to be on the wrong board. his/her arguments seem more flame-bait than sincere.

[mondo joe]

403. Oh hi Kineta. Just wanted to commend you on your excellent posts in this sad, hateful thread.

It's hard to know how to respond to an OP that is so disturbed, and disturbing. But you've done well!

[Matariki]

408. Hey Mondo Joe - good on you too for your tireless advocation for personal freedom

and the right to privacy and adults making choices for themselves and so forth.

:hi:

[Name removed]

410. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Slagathor]

409. Hmm... absolute literal mindedness, no sense of irony or sarcasm...

are you sure *you're* on the right board?

[mondo joe]

418. Don't blame me for your inability to say what you mean. NT

[Sarah Ibarruri]

289. I call them self-degraders and self-humiliaters nt

[Matariki]

301. That's what you call women who like sex?!

I suspected it was about more than just the money.

And what may I ask are the numbers involved for you to make judgments like that? A woman sleeping with more than one man in a week, a night, a month, a year, a lifetime, what? Two men in a year, three, four, how many? How do you define 'slut'? Have you given it any thought?

I find your judgmental attitude incredibly regressive. Clearly you have some hang ups if you think sex is by default 'degrading' and 'humiliating' to women.

I dread to hear your opinion on 'sex before marriage'...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

425. Have you ever bothered to hear anyone who works getting prostitutes and call girls off the streets?

Oh that's right, evidently not.

[mondo joe]

426. You mean the women you call self degrading? The women you think can't even be raped?

Yeah - you're concerned all right.

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

226. Because she "chose" to be a prostitute

not to be hounded by media. That second choice wasn't hers, so yes there is a difference.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

238. thank you. its a similar argument to the one people make about prostitutes cant be raped

:applause:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

292. She chose to degrade herself, yet all of a sudden she's pretending she wasn't really degrading

herself at all. Bizarre.

[BoneDaddy]

387. Degradation is a matter of opinion.

In some cultures being a master/mistress of the sexual arts was seen as noble and was valued. The point is why is it your problem to begin with? Why do you care so much to keep her in a state of degradation or a need to see her that way?

I do not think it is bizarre to have a reaction to not wanting to be hounded by the media this way.

[Slagathor]

413. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read, Joe Francis

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/18/dupree.girls.gone.wild.ap/index.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

424. And death is relative. nt

[SweetBrad]

232. It's not her fault

Probably the only way she can make a buck in this Bush Economy. It's the oldest proffesion and is not going away; I see it as empowering to women, not degrading - they determine how much, when, where and with whom they will have sex for. Now a "ho" controlled by a pimp is a different story but that is not the case for a high-class call girl.

Why are Americans so fucking uptight about sex? It is very common in Japan for a young woman to have a Sugar Daddy who pays for her living expenses and college in exchange for sex. Not just in Japan but many parts of Asia and Europe too. If Americans were not such religious prudes it would be perfectly legal in ALL States just like it is in most parts of the world.

[seabeyond]

248. because a person doesnt like selling body does NOT mean uptight about sex

how come so many men dont get that selling a body has nothing to do with enjoyment of sex.

oh i know. cause men use calling women prudes ect.... to get women to feel shame and shut their mouth when it comes to mens porn

and

japan is such a male dominating environment to hold that up to women as something we should attain is pure bullshit and can only be seen as a positive by a male

[noamnety]

258. I agree with you here.

Absolute bullshit to try to portray that as anything positive. It's not a pro-woman position to brag that women "get to" sell access to their bodies in order to pay for college.

That's like holding up prison rape in return for protection as a shining example of men's rights. :(

[mondo joe]

274. Of course not. A person inappropriately invested in OTHERS's sex lives is a prude.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

276. and i guess you decide who is inappropriate and who is invested to pin the name "prude"

:toast:

you slut, you prude, well you're a slut, ya ya ya you're a prude

[mondo joe]

277. If it's an adult body other than your own, it's inappropriate.

Some people ought to get a boundary.

[Art_from_Ark]

306. Apparently it's been a while since you've been in Japan

Things have changed. It's not the male-dominated society you seem to think it is.

[seabeyond]

311. bullshit. google: japan male dominate.... you are wrong.

Today, Japan remains a male-dominated society. More disturbing is the void that exists in the number of Japanese women who are engaged in a public re-appraisal of gender issues. In other words, more worrisome than Japanese women's oppression is the invisibility of the women who should have something to say about it.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=69308524-EE87-4832-B98B-4BDA6006155F

[Art_from_Ark]

416. I call bullshit back at ya

I've been involved with Japan for the past 25 years, with most of that time as a resident. I have seen Japan make a transition from a male-dominated society to one where women are making inroads everywhere. Twenty years ago, for example, it was unheard of to have a female engineer of a train, and now you can see them running trains in Tokyo and elsewhere. There are even some trains that have women-only cars.
Women have also served in Cabinet positions, and for a long time a woman (Takako Doi) was the leader of the main opposition party.

Women also were expected to quit their jobs after getting married, but there are 5 married women at my company who are still there, and there is no pressure for them to quit. I also know of several companies that are headed by women. And at home, women are definitely the ones in control. It's even not uncommon for a married man to take his wife's last name.

So, even if there isn't an obvious "public re-appraisal of gender issues" in Japan, that doesn't mean that women are being suppressed here.

[girl gone mad]

415. I was there pretty recently.

Still very male dominated.

My best friend is from Japan. She emigrated here about 5 years ago. She always tells me she hates Japan because society is too chauvinistic society and she never wants to go back.

[Javaman]

234. Not at all. The public is the biggest John around. we just haven't paid enough yet. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

295. True. The public fuels things so women will degrade themselves ever more and more and more nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

237. i agree, ONLY virgins have a right to complain about the invasion of their privacy

the rest of us who have degraded ourselves by fucking around, should have no future rights over our image.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

294. No, but if you are selling your degradation for cash, turning around and

pretending that you weren't really degrading yourself for cash is quite another sort of trick.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

319. no its not. its about consent.

[seabeyond]

320. then all those women and girls prostituting themselves to feed themselves should feel good

it is about consent, because after all, they consent to allow these pigs to do whatever to their body for a few dollars to feed themselves and their children. whoooosh, as a woman i feel so much better to know this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

322. your post makes no sense. my point is she seems like she consented to being a prostitite

whereas the pictures were something she didnt give consent to.

[mondo joe]

362. But you're addressing consent with people who find consent confusing.

[seabeyond]

365. no mondo joe, i dont find it confusing at all. n/t

[mondo joe]

388. I refer you to post #245.

"ah, there is so much gray when it comes to sex and the two genders"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

372. no shit. i just love when women are misogynists in the name of morality and purity

[seabeyond]

375. because you know for certain that it has to do with morality and purity. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

376. yes i do.

[seabeyond]

378. so if the issue isnt moral, and i am not pure....

what part do i play

[Sarah Ibarruri]

423. If a person sells a kidney for money to be able feed his family, is that consent? nt

[ecstatic]

249. I don't agree. Not all forms of degradation are equal

and people have the right to choose which level of degradation they are comfortable with.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

296. At least we're on the same page: prostitution is degrading of oneself for money nt

[gasperc]

251. I'd be proud of a gold plated vagina

[LanternWaste]

254. I doubt she wanted half the country to recognize her degradation

Although she may have degraded herself, I doubt she wanted half the country to recognize her degradation.

I think of the jobs I've had in the past that I was too ashamed to admit to aloud and all the lies/excuses I used to justify those jobs to myself and to other people when necessary.

[Feron]

255. After reading this thread,

you seem to be quite a misogynist despite the fact that you claim to be a feminist.

Certainly women are intelligent enough to make decisions on their own on what is degrading or not. So sad if it doesn't agree with your preconcieved notion of female purity.

And I certainly wouldn't want the world to know of all of my private activities. I don't think it is hypocritical to want some amount of privacy. For example, some people, not me, take racy photos of themselves meant only for a SO to see. While not degrading, it's also something you don't want your neighbors and grandma to see.

Being a prostitute does not mean that a woman is a whore in need of punishment. Nor does it mean that she deserves no privacy.

And I'm also tired of people blaming her for Spitzer's ouster. Spitzer set himself up when he repeatedly sought out paid for sex (and while at the same time prosecuted prostitution rings).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

293. Actually, feminists don't want females to degrade themselves and

crawl along the floor humiliating themselves sexually and otherwise the way this female did. However, maybe you do.

[BlooInBloo]

269. Thanks! Now when ppl bitch at me for a lack of couth, I can point at you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

288. Males defending the availability of prostitution are not an impressive point :) nt

[ruiner4u]

290. Cause she does not make money if she is not the one publishing her picture.

a prostitute is a hooker is a leach.

[Matariki]

302. WHORE! SLUT!

Floozy! Tramp! Harlot! Jezebel!

Words used BY WOMEN to HUMILIATE and DEGRADE other women -to control them into maintaining the unspoken social contract of not 'giving it away'.

[seabeyond]

303. firstly the whore and prostitute and other sex workers are doing anything but giving it away

secondly, going by the definition of the words slut=a whorish woman, whore= sexual intercourse for money. why should a whore have issue with being called a whore when she readily is a whore. she feels no shame in the doing, what is a damn word

all thru my 20's i had NO desire for a relationship and held firm to the one night stand, no commitment stance. i easily call it my slut behavior. i dont feel shame that at the time, that is what i wanted and needed. i also am honest with myself why, and the repercussion and the effects on me.

if a woman decides to cross the line and sell her body, surely a word that defines her behavior is not going to shame her. or s there shame in what she choses and so we must "soften" it and make it more respectable for her. but then in admitting and doing that we are saying that she ......

you see the point.

:shrug:

[Matariki]

305. I'm not talking about the words - but the attitude that makes people use those word AGAINST others

The whole "they're degrading themselves" thing is a thin cover for a judgmental and hateful heart.

[seabeyond]

307. or

they think that they do degrade themselves and it then reaches out degrading females as a whole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3026583

it is a relief to know that at least for all these iraqi women and childen, what they are forced into is not degrading to them.

[Matariki]

333. You are blaming the suffering of Iraqi women on 'sluts'?!?

So, what you are saying is that women who enjoy multiple sex partners, or 'one night stands', etc. are somehow 'degrading females as a whole'? Even going so far as to imply that what you judge to be 'slutish behavior' is somehow forcing Iraqi women and children into prostitution?

What great lengths you are going to to justify your judgmental, sex negative point of view.

I'll ask the same question I asked Sarah up thread. At what point in your scheme of things do you feel justified in calling a woman a 'slut'? How many people and how frequently do they have to have sex with before they earn your vitriol?

[seabeyond]

335. no you are wrong. you misread and interpreted incorrectly every step of the way

you are wrong in everything you say. that is not what i am saying. anywhere.

am i clear. do you understand that anyway. or are you going to interpret that incorrectly too

[Matariki]

367. No, you're not clear

I was asking about your judgmental attitude toward women's sexuality, i.e. calling women sluts - which you and the OP seem to think is perfectly acceptable language. YOU then made the comparison to Iraqi women forced into prostitution.

Either you're not being clear, we had a communication disconnect at some point in the fruitless conversation, or whatever.

[seabeyond]

369. they are two seperate posts. i do not know how they could be more seperate

no, i do not have an issue with a word. that was the first post talking whore, slut. i went further that thru my own experience in my twenties i easily recognized my sexual choices as slut behavior. was fine with me and didnt hurt my feelings. was exactly what i was doing, looking for, wanting. .... but i was honest with myself what i was doing. also why. and learned lessons form the experience. and grew

the iraq women thing was another post answering yours that maybe it is as simple as some think it actually is degrading to female. and having just come from the iraqi thread it brought it to a point. exactly expressing how degrading and how women are forced to reduce themselves to it to ...... eat. hence, that disgusted feeling women feel towards prositution.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

308. Hey, you leave Kristen alone! She's a sweetheart.

[J R]

312. Go ahead, judge her... Feel better about yourself?

How dare you sit in judgment of this young lady! How DARE you! Something tells me that your sad ass values safety and conformity over living a real life. I think you're degrading yourself by acting like somany of these faux Xhristians here in the US, judging people and getting off on it. Shame on you, YOU'RE the prude!

[Hissyspit]

316. Um, it's about having control.

[seabeyond]

317. damn straight. to be able to sexually do what wants with a human body

yet not have to think of it as human or any other responsibility to that human.

just read about the women and children in iraq, getting their jollies now being prostitutes per male posters here on this thread, how thrilled all these females must be now to be able to sell themselves. have been thinking about it the last hour, merging this thread with those females situation in iraq, trying to feed themselves.

how we can be outraged for those women in iraq yet say in the u.s. is a good thing, like working at mcdonals is lying to self in the most hypocritical of ways

[Withywindle]

395. Oh, you've got to be kidding me.

how we can be outraged for those women in iraq yet say in the u.s. is a good thing, like working at mcdonals is lying to self in the most hypocritical of ways

In the case of Kristen, we are talking about an upper-middle-class American girl with an education and plenty of options. She clearly DID choose it. She does not live in a war zone with no other options. She would not starve if she didn't. Yes, context DOES matter. Why is it so hard to accept that some women who DO have plenty of other options sometimes DO choose this?

I'm a woman who doesn't think sex work is inherently degrading. If it's degrading to the women in the trade, why wouldn't it be to the men as well? News flash: sex is an extremely popular activity among humans, and so is making money, and there's no way anyone is ever going to stop people from finding as many ways as possible to combine the two. Some women are perfectly fine with thinking in these terms.

I said *some*, not all or even most. I don't think I could do it -- I'm too introverted. But the very fact that prostitutes exist does not "degrade" me as a woman. If any women do, it's women like Phyllis Schlafly and Ann Coulter, but they don't. Why? Because there are billions of us, and we are all individuals as different from each other in our opinions and comfort levels as men are, not some kind of collective mass who all think alike, have the same emotional responses to things, and are subject to collective punishment.

Some women (like you, I gather) are deeply, instinctual repulsed on a gut level by the idea of having sex for money. That's fine. And some women (like me) just kind of shrug at it and have no particular emotional response at all. That's ALSO fine.


(edited to fix bad code.)

[fudge stripe cookays]

422. Let me just say...

:applause:

No one speaks for me but me. Nothing anyone else does degrades me or ALL women. However, judgmental prudish assholes do tend to make the rest of us look silly.

[Withywindle]

427. Like Eleanor Roosevelt said

"No one can make you feel inferior without your permission."

Anyone think Eleanor Roosevelt didn't know from sexism? I think she did. Feminism to me is about women's MINDS. And yes, sex workers have minds.

Isn't that what the patriarchal trick of calling a woman a "whore" or a "slut" is supposed to do? Make her all about the cunt, so that her mind is rendered irrelevant if you fall for that bullshit paradigm? (Shocking news flash: all women have both.) Of course, this trick started with people who never respected any women's minds in the first place.

So when some women, under a guise of "feminism" (wha?) decide that certain excessive or improper or insufficiently reverant uses of the cootchie render the brain and soul attached irrelevant (just like the local jock deciding that raping the local "slut" doesn't matter), well, I guess you can imagine it bugs me. More than when men do it, because women should know better.

[mondo joe]

428. That is an exquisite post.

Well said!

:toast:

[Withywindle]

429. Aw, thanks!

It took me a long time to get to the point of what curdled my soul the most about this whole thread, and I think it's the idea that once a woman has agreed to make some money with sex, she then loses all right to establish boundaries forever. There's so much veiled nasty misogyny COMING FROM WOMEN here. The most hateful and vicious posts vilifying this woman are not by men.

And, not to get too TMI here, (warning: I will) but it took me back through many incidents of sexual abuse I've experienced--the worst of which by far was a gang assault by other middle-school girls because I was judged a "slut."

I still don't understand why some women are so vicious and toxic towards other women whose sexual choices they deem bad enough to discount those women's humanity. It's GOT to be some kind of turf war thing.

I just know that I'll take an honest hooker as my spiritual ally LONG before I'll stand with any women who would throw another woman under the bus for not treating sexuality according to some irrational superstition I don't share.

[fudge stripe cookays]

430. Exactly.

And that's one of my favoite quotes. Eleanor knew her shit.

And I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right. Making it all about the cooch renders the brain and the soul and everything else about the woman irrelevant.

Bravo to you for understanding the concept behind this malevolence towards one's own sex.

:thumbsup:

[Sheets of Easter]

318. "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

"You either are degrading yourself, or you aren't."

I see little difference between those two statements.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

328. because there is little difference. its blurring all intellectual arguments, because one strongly

feels one way. also making up definitions of prostitution in the same way that bush was making up definitions of terrorism.

[BurtWorm]

321. She's not a prude, she's a professional.

That may not sound right, but I think it's a better explanation for her reaction. She's watching newspapers getting rich off of her body without paying a dime to her.

[LostinVA]

361. Good point

[Uncle Joe]

329. You must hate the corporate media then because they're trying to make a killing

by using her body part images to further degrade the woman in question and her family.

The question isn't whether degradation is involved, it's as to who's choice it becomes and in what manner. It was the woman's choice in the first instance as she exposed herself to a limited market of people looking exclusively for her services and the corporate media's choice in the second in trying to make the issue theirs by exposing it to the world.

The corporate media didn't care how they degraded her or her family so long as they could make a killing of the almighty dollar, and they had no compulsion selling her body part images, whether she wanted them to or not. The difference being the woman rented her body parts for a limited time, the corporate media sold them for all perpetuity or a least for so long as images last.

I believe this media driven prostitutional obsession with the private life of the people helped contribute to the death of Princess Diana and the emotional/mental meltdown of Brittany Spears.

I contend many in the corporate media are the true prostitutes here and the American People are paying a heavy price for their services.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

338. You need professional help.

There's something eating you from the inside, and it's filling you with hate. That can't be healthy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

340. not as much as this person does...check it out,.

[seabeyond]

341. wow... lol lol and i am the asshole. lol. i made a mistake, but

i acknowledge and apologized. that is a lot more than what is generally expected on this site. and further, even with me thinking that for some reason you had changed your profile from stripper to belly dancer, lol.... i was still nice in my post. i dont think i was being disrespectful. i am thinking you changed a profile and ask you about it, (what else is a person to do, i do not accuse, i asked) and you told me i was wrong

now.....

what is your point here?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

342. you degrade women by saying their opinions arent important because of professional choices

also, i know the du'er you are thinking about and she does far more for feminists in one day, than you and people like you, will do in their entire lives.

[seabeyond]

345. i did not say. your interpretation

and if you were said poster, then i would have hoped to have gotten into conversation..... to explore and discuss, ergo actually listening to the poster, valuing what she says which is complete opposite of what you accuse me of, a given, since you know nothing about me and just throwing a little tantrum

secondly, good for you for knowing the poster so you know i wasnt just spouting hot air

thirdly, you dont know anything me and people like me to accuse me of anything, again doing the very thing you throw at others

and lastly, the poster you are talking about..... i read a thread she started adn very much valued and appreciated her as a member of du. after reading her story and appreciating it i checked her profile, found she was a stripper and didnt care one way or another, just appreciating what she did give in her post and the warmth she shared

so

about all you say is incorrect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

347. actually you did say that. you said i was only posting to defend my choices and demand respect

when infact what i am doing is asking people to respect other women and their choices.

so yeah you are wrong as usual.

[seabeyond]

350. it was a question. and it was to the point and there is a reason

i wanted to know.... point blank if that woman changed her stuff, for what reason. i wanted to understand her reason for it. from the answer to the question, would depend where i went from there

i know you want the choice respected. the choice is not going to be respected. (the men dont respect it as much as they pretend) it does not mean we are fundamentalist or prude or anything else. there is a reason that choice isnt respected.

that is not indicative about all of who a person is, the choice they make

i have been clear on the top of the thread, how not appreciating a behavior is totally different than valuing a person

i am not a believer in dictating a person's choice whether i agree with it or not.

we all have to walk as we chose, it is individual journey for each of our individual lesson, whatever that may be

i do not see good or bad

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

343. Wow. That was bad, but I think the OP is nuttier.

That person probably mistook you for lildreamer316.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

344. yeah it did.

[seabeyond]

346. what was bad? n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

348. your assumption that i am only defending prostitutes because i am a sex worker myself

also the paranoid accusations of changing my profile :crazy:

[seabeyond]

353. a mistake is not paranoia. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

356. It's beyond a mistake - yes, you had the wrong person. But your opinion is still there.

Whether you put Lioness' name in the spot, or someone else's name, is irrelevant - you still have a bad attitude about women who exercise their right to choose their profession.

Stop trying to deflect the criticism.

[seabeyond]

358. my opinion is throughout this thread. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

359. Yes, it is. Any other obvious and irrelevant facts you want to point out? The Sun is hot.

We breath oxygen.

Oranges are a fruit.

How's that?

Your response is fucking ignorant and, quite truthfully, incomprehensible in this debate line.

Yes, your opinion is throughout this thread. So fucking what? Does that somehow change your opinion? Lessen it's extremely negative viewpoint? Make you a better person for having posted it a whole bunch of time, instead of just once?

This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time.

"My opinion is throughout this thread". So fucking what?

I'm wearing underwear. I slept yesterday. A meter is longer than a yard. Twelve make a dozen.

:eyes:

The real truth is that you have been cowardly - you insult everyone who works as a sex worker, and, once, you mistakenly aimed it at Lioness. You had the honor to admit to that mistake, but now when people call you on your assholic bigotry of insulting all sex workers, you cower and hide behind that mistake, saying, "Oh, I know that it wasn't Lioness". But you still don't admit that you have insulted a shitload of women (and men) in this country who CHOOSE to be sex workers.

Why not have the integrity to be honest about that? Your opinion is, as you say, throughout this thread. You might as well fucking own it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

363. possibly the most eloquent and side splitting funny comment i have ever read on DU.

you truly are a master of rhetoric

[seabeyond]

364. are you saying that i MUST respect the woman choice to sells herself.

that is the only way to redeem myself. that is the only way for me to be an ok person if i say, yup not a problem with it at all. it is a totally repsectable job. that it is not degrading to female.

that is the only way i atone?

[Rabrrrrrr]

370. I think you should respect all people, for the simple reason they are people.

If you wish to disrespect their choice of profession, that's fine, or even to disrespect the way they fulfill that profession, that's fine. I have no respect for the output of Kenny G, Thomas Kinkade, or Pat Robertson. That's fine.

But there is a big leap from "That is not a profession that I would choose for myself" to "Anyone who does that is a piece of shit who no longer warrants any respect from me or anyone".

I think you should at least respect that, as much as you wouldn't choose it for yourself, SOME women (and men) CHOOSE to work in the sex industry in one form or another.

And for you to continue to say that it is degrading is, IMO, a very degrading comment. It completely disempowers those who have chosen that field.

[seabeyond]

374. the reason i mention my posts throughout this thread is i think there is a theme

at least i hope it comes out that it is not a dislike of the person as a whole. i have tried to keep the balance clear, articulate that it is not the person as a whole i judge. that is why i made that comment is because going off this one post is not indicative of how i feel

i have cuddled, loved and taken care of the person that walked out of the world, hurt. not to mention all the other people that i have cared for and loved because of destructive choices they make in their life that i do not respect.

i think i have conveyed that in my posts and further, the post highlighted i absolutely stated strippin was not the whole of who i thought she was, ... i think. didnt i. i did the very thing you demand of me.

now. .... i believe they are already disempowered which is my whole distaste for the thing. i have watched men use porn on the females in their lifes to degrade them, and they are not even making the choice. i have watched porn used to control. i have seen the very ugliest of it and i do not like it nor respect.... it.

and honestly, it is really the men that dehumanize women, another human being that bother me. the female is once again, just the tool

[seabeyond]

380. i said it all on the post.

i clearly spelled out to the poster her being a stripper did not make her less, that i could value who she is as a person and that i appreciated what she said in post talking about her family. i clearly said, disagreeing with one part wasnt the whole.

[seabeyond]

368. are you in this world, do you play in it, too

i have been and looking around in this world i see so much of the pain, and the sadness, and the destruction. why pretend it is not there. why is there always a happy face on it in defending it, but not reality, not honesty.

[Rabrrrrrr]

371. Why not use capital letters? This is a communication forum.

Your cutesy affectation is loathsome and makes you unrespectable.




See how fucking dumb that sounds?


Your post is also ignorant - what you just said has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Do you often post random non sequitors? Because you've done it twice now, just in your four post conversation with me.

[seabeyond]

377. and i cannot understand what exactly your rant is about, so i cant address it

you were not specific. except about capitalizing. ?????

[Rabrrrrrr]

385. No, I'm not surpised you don't understand it. So I will explain it.

You said earlier that a "woman who sells herself" is not worthy of respect.

So I decided to take your methodology and say that, because you refuse to communicate in a "normal" fashion, you, too, are not worthy of respect.

And then I asked if you understood how fucking dumb that sounds.

And then you answered that no, you don't.

And then I responded, in the title line of this post, that I am not surprised you don't understand.



And p.s. - while I don't think YOU specifically are not worth respect for using shitty writing, I do think that your WRITING deserves less respect, and I have a difficult time taking your content as seriously as you might wish because, by using sloppy, shitty, lazy writing styles you show me - whether you feel it or not - that YOU don't really care about what you are saying, because you can't be bothered to do it well and correctly. Leave the cutesy affectations for poetry and artistic writing. In adult prose writing meant to communicate, you should use language properly.

This last paragraph - the p.s. comment just above this line - is, of course, an entirely different thought line, totally unrelated (though related in a tangential way) to the actual discussion on hand. Think of it as an aside, a moment of helpfulness designed to help you better communicate with people.

[seabeyond]

381. yup, with the namecalling, the misinterpretation of posts, the assumptions made about poster

i think after re reading my post when i thought the person had changed her profile (the honest mistake i apologized for)ergo thought was lying, i handle it much more graticiously and with kindness and acceptance than all yawl put together, calling names, attacking, judging.

a little lookin in the mirror here...

i am thinkin i took the higher road, .... staying respectful throughout.

[mondo joe]

355. The blind hate is one thing. The obsession with what others do with their genitals is the

really scary thing.

This is the stuff of fundamentalist islam and christianity.

[seabeyond]

357. i read about all those females young and old now prostituting themselves in iraq

to feed themselves and children, mondo, and i really ask myself what that has to do with bullshit religious attitude and a person that can just dismiss that as a person making their own decision to do what they want with their body

a poster on that thread says, well at least they are able to eat, would you rather they die

bully for them, they get food to eat by being treated like an animal and they are suppose to feel grateful for the opportunity?

and i am sickened

then you want me to feel like an fundamentalist prude because i cannot reconcile in my mind what these female are being put through as being o.k.

yes they have to do it and i will continue to feel disgust to the world that has created the environment that they have to do it and i will not look at it romantically or a big game to be played or empowering to women.

outta this thread

[mondo joe]

360. I don'tknow why you're conflating victims of war with adult women (and men)

making their own choices.

But I won't indulge it.

[seabeyond]

366. it doesnt cut a nice clean disinfected line..... those that do it not from want

and those that chose it in play. those that are addicted and hurt and in pain and suffering or abused as children or desperate...... you cannot say not be disgusted only a little or by some.....

[mondo joe]

399. You listed a lot of victims. But you ignore the capacity of competent people to

make their own choices.

No one thinks war victims, or people coerced or forced into anything are making a reasonably free choice.

But adults who are not forced or coerced have the right to make choices, and they ought to have their RIGHT TO CHOICE respected. Note: that doesn't mean their choices have to be respected, but their right to choose.

[usaftmo]

373. Amen! n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

389. uh um - offhand it seems to me that it is her body

and she gets to decide what to do with it and with images of it and that your judgemental attitude is irrelevant to her right to privacy.

[NaturalHigh]

401. I don't really think it's you're business to declare that she's degrading herself.

[anellis]

405. This seems like a lot of hate and bitterness

towards someone who is more in need of help. When a woman has to regard sex work as the best and most lucrative trade available to her it's not her we should condemn, but the societal framework that made her choose it as her clearest option.

[cherokeeprogressive]

412. The prostitute is not really the most important part of the story.

Actually, she's the least important player, thus not important at all.

Eliot made his bed, and now he has to sleep in it. I'm sure he had whores and discarded whores before she came along. I'm even willing to bet that he was engaging in this behavior DECADES before he got caught.

She really doesn't have a bitch as far as I'm concerned. She's a small part in a big story that doesn't really concern her.

I also believe that whatever dollars she can gleam from from this should be wholly hers, and that NO ONE should be pointing to her as being incidental to this HYPOCRITE'S downfall.

[Elspeth]

414. Being a prostitute doesn't mean you should lose all your privacy

It's not a job I would do or approve of, but she still has the right to complain if her images are used without her permission and to her disadvantage.

[leftstreet]

417. IBTL

:o