Recession/Depression Good for US?

[maseman]

This won't be a very popular post I don't think. The way our lifestyle has been the past ten to fifteen years in the US is to SPEND SPEND SPEND. All of my grandparents, as did many of yours, lived through the Great Depression. One thing they all had in common was they had a level of thriftiness to them that was quite admirable.

Both sets of my grandparents made decent household incomes as they matured to adulthood. Both both were very frugal mainly due to their childhood memories of the depression in the early 1930s. Yes they had to do without many things through their life but all had fairly nice savings/estates once deceased meaning they saved most of their lives.

We cannot possibly continue to live beyond our means in this country. I think the only wake-up call people will have is another depression. It will be awful for many, even me and my family perhaps.

I also think that a serious economic downturn is the only thing that will wake-up the masses to vote in their BEST interests. Kind of hard for anyone to care about the Rights FEAR message when they are hungry or having their electric turned off.

[Earth_First]

1. STFU! n/t

[mwb970]

2. Well! That was a thoughtful response.

Thank you for your erudite contribution.

[Earth_First]

6. It is probably missing:

:sarcasm:

re: "This won't be a very popular post I don't think."

[mwb970]

8. Oh, sorry.

I guess I missed the point.

[ThomWV]

3. It is a legitimate question. Is a purge necessary might have been a better way to ask.

Your argument has merit but please consider this, it is not that we spend, but that we spend on things that are intended to be wasted. We do not buy out of necessity, often not even from desire, but always from the constant pressure to buy. Mental manipulation by marketers. If it were just a matter of spend, spend, spend, we could be buying stocks, bonds, machine tools, the means of production. But we don't.

So I would suggest that rather than being the "spend" generation we are now the 'waste' generation.

[maseman]

9. ThomWV

Couldn't agree with you more and I have the same feelings as you. Most of what we buy is wasteful. A Hummer? The average house now has 3.2 televisions. Etc.

Buy the way I am no spending Saint. I have plenty of waste myself. I am trying to scale back although I do save quite a bit into retirement funds. Also pay off the cards every month. But I could be saving much more and not wasting on useless crap we really don't need.

Thanks for your thoughts Thom.

[pitohui]

22. again with the "we"

who are all these people on DU who have money to waste?

there is no "waste" generation, there may be a "waste" class that many of us here on DU are not and never have been privy to

there is no "we" -- while some of you were "spend spend spend" (and shame on you if you really were) i was going without health insurance and even my medicines for many many years

don't tell me about "we" when you are talking about your own selfishness, don't pretend "we" all lived like that

[maseman]

28. You chastise me below for making an assumption

and you are doing the same thing.

"Who are these people on DU who have money to waste?" Geez, maybe not many. You know there is a popultation out there beyond DU. Matter of fact DU doesn't (unfortunately) represent the general population.

The "We" I am referring to is the US as a whole. I am sure there a plenty who either live within their means and many who are poor and must do without medicine and other basic needs.

I am sorry you've had to do without basic necessities. But I say "Screw you" for now twice assuming I am selfish. Wasteful spending does cross various classes and is much more broad-based than you claim. From Wal-Mart to Saks 5th Avenue there is wasteful spending.

[Echo In Light]

4. 2000 coup? police state tactics? rigged elections? war atrocities in our name, w/our tax $...

The populace barely flinched. However, take away the capacity to watch football while drinking light beer after returning from the mall in an enormo-sized SUV that costs as much as a house did not long ago, and then I suspect you'll have the undivided attention of a much greater percentage.

[marmar]

5. I see what you're saying......

If nothing else, it's a call to re-think the way we live: The utter ridiculousness of sprawling, driving-dependent metro areas; The mindless consumption of "created wants" as Noam Chomsky would say. Perhaps a change to more localized, sustainable communities with good public transit and solid infrastructure?

[Echo In Light]

7. Yes. "Fashionable Consumption;" navigating the public mind away from crucial matters

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I agree with you

We must re-think our entire value system. In the '30s, it didn't matter what you had, but rather how you treated others. If your word was your bond, if you reached out and helped others, you were a respected individual. It seems that for many now all that matters is what you possess--doesn't even matter how you got it.

In order for our planet to survive, we must change this way of thinking, and go back to the idea that your character is more important than the contents of your wallet.

[maseman]

11. Didn't think of that

But great points. It is a sure "What's mine is mine and go away" attitude we have now.

I live in a neighborhood that was actually built in the 1930s. Front porches on all the houses. My neighbors are awesome. We've thought about moving since we are in a small 1500 sq. ft. ranch with two kids. But we love the area. Now it is also great since it is a very affordable mortgage locked in at 5.8%. But having neighbors who are always willing to help and vice versa is one key to a nice life and community.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. don't move

in the coming times, good neighbors will be worth their weight in gold.

[elizfeelinggreat]

14. "doesn't even matter how you got it"

So true.

The framing has been that if you're wealthy it's because you EARNED it (you're worthy) and if you're not wealthy then you're lazy or you wasted your money on frivolous things.

Our youth constantly hear slogans about what possessions mean, what they should HAVE instead of what they could BE, as in "a good human being".

[Echo In Light]

15. Being a soulless, greedy, corporate Wage Slave = COOL in a corporate culture

[Snarkoleptic]

12. Waning urban/suburban sprawl is also part of the silver lining.

Sprawl has been a major issue for the environment.

[datasuspect]

20. acres and acres of unused retail greyfields

[KitSileya]

16. Good for the US?

Probably not. Certainly not good for the majority of Americans, especially those in the lower middle and lower classes. (America may think it's a classless society, but that just bs.) Some in the middle and upper middle classes will have a rude awakening, and perhaps, if they manage to change will end up with a better quality of life when they can no longer buy, buy, buy their way to 'happiness'. The aristocracy will endure no matter what.

What is certain, it that it will be good for the planet. Not for the world, but for the planet. Lower consumption in the US and in most of the world is to be desired. It might help us stop the devastation our materialism is visiting on this planet. But as always, it is the poorest who will pay the most, and suffer the most, regardless of where they are from - in Europe the poor will do better because European cultures aren't as selfish as the US.

[maseman]

17. Great points

When I say "Good for the US" I mean long term like you are implying in your post. Yes it will be a rude awakening for the middle class and rough on the lower class. But long-term it will be better for the US if we lived more frugaly like in the UK and the rest of Europe.

[depakid]

18. Short term vs. long term thinking

better that the US face the music for its irrational and self destructive policies and behaviors now- while there's still a modest supply of relatively cheap petroleum, rather than down the line, when hopes of any reasonable recovery will be slim to none....

[datasuspect]

19. if it can awaken a complacent, easily programmed public

it would be very good.

[pitohui]

21. "our" lifestyle has been spend, spend, spend? sorry that's arrogant and mean spirited

i'm glad your life has been so privileged, but maybe you should stop and think before you post such assumptions -- you know what happens when you assume

also i'm glad both sets of your grandparents were so wealthy during the depression, mine had a terrible time -- "decent" estates? jesus, people, what a joke, on my dad's side there was not even an indoor toilet until 1960

people who have never experienced hardship are free to romanticize hardship but, tell you what -- romanticize poverty and hardship in your little fern bars

i don't appreciate being told how "we" "spend, spend, spend" when i've never had such an option

i have never lived beyond my means, never had the opportunity, and i'm not interested in hearing about how it is well and good that the country becomes poor, for you, no doubt all it involves is giving up starbucks, well boo hoo, for many of us it involves giving up medicine

[BuelahWitch]

23. Yeah, they think they're ready

They can still access they internet living in a box under a bridge as long as they have a laptop, right? :sarcasm: Whatcha gonna do when the battery goes dead d00d? Can't eat a laptop anyway...
I totally feel for the people who are going to be the worst impacted by this. Somehow I think the ones singing and dancing about the economic demise of the US are in for a very rude awakening. Yeah, there'll be a thinning of the "herd." Did you ever think part of that herd might be YOU?

[maseman]

25. I knew I'd see a post or two like this

Let's rewind a little bit. I never said my life has been so priviledged. When I say "Our" I am talking about the US as a whole. We obviously have many who never have been "priviledged" but many many have been as well as spending well beyond their means.

I never said that my grandparents were so wealthy during the depression. You should go back and read my post before drawing incorrect conclusions. My grandmother on my mother's side were relatively wealthy until the depression. My great-grandfather was a General Manager for a very large, growing corporation. He was fired in 1929 and couldn't find another job until 4 years later. They had four girls living in a one bedroom apartment.

My grandfather on my mother's side was very poor growing up before and after the depression. HE went to college and made a life in business. He was never wealthy.

My grandmother on my dad's side was the daughter of a bank manager. They did very well in WV until 1929 went he went out of business. They moved to Akron, OH. so he could be a tire builder. Banker to tire builder. Never wealthy after that.

My grandfather on my dad's side was the son of a man who owned a neighborhood grocery store operated out of their basement. They worked 15 hour days six days per week. My grandfather built tires for 40 years in Akron.

Even though they were not wealthy they saved everything they could. They lived within their means. Seems like a great succss story rather than "mean spirited and arrogant." I hope I can hold a candle to what they did.

Your slippery slope arguments "giving up your Starbucks boo hoo" is actually mean spirited. How do you know anything about me?

[wuushew]

24. I think a lot of the Depression survivors became a little too thrifty

My Grandmother who recently liquidated a lot her assets when she moved off her farm had been hoarding silver coins for the last sixty plus years.

Most of the coins don't have any value beyond the silver. If that money had been invested at the time instead of being hoarded the returns would be massively greater.

I mean during her lifetime the population(and the resultant economic activity) of the U.S. has probably quadrupled.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Is herpes good for a person?

Generally, no.

I think you're confusing "good for us" with "look on the bright side, we'll change our behavior".

We've spent most of the last three decades behaving absolutely irresponsibly. That's why we're in trouble.

[maseman]

27. Great analogy and well put

That was the point I was trying to make. "Good for us" seems almost like a punishment. OF course I don't want to see harm on people due to economics, including my own. I have two kids who have to deal with this mess also.

I hope we have a solid change in behavior from our general wasteful spending. So many people try to buy happiness.