Why do we as Americans assume that Democracy and unbridled

[cliffordu]

greed/predatory capitalism are the same thing???

Is there a guarantee anywhere in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independence that say this is a right??

I really want to know.



Edit:
Put on my glasses, edited "unbridled" for BlooinBloo, who cannot stand a typo, and obviously doesn't want to answer the question.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. We don't.

[Greyhound]

2. About 120 years of a dedicated propaganda campaign to brainwash us.

The Constitution established and reserved the power to create currency to the Congress alone. We have had our nation stolen from us and we just watch, while pretending not to see.

[selador]

3. we don't

it's a nice strawman though.

democracy is a political system. capitalism is an economic system. they nicely compliment each other but one can have capitalism without democracy, certainly.

one can argue that our capitalism is over or underregulated (i would argue the former in some areas, the latter in some areas, and "just right" a la the three little bears in others).

i'll be straightforward here. i am a HUGE fan of capitalism. so, i naturally gravitate towards threads that criticize it. :)

also, what some see as predatory capitalism could rightly be characterized as competitive capitalism (which is kind of redundant obviously).

capitalism necessarily implies there will be losers, there will be winners (see: mellencamp) :) but in the end it works out for the benefit of the many and grows wealth.

certainly, greed is NOT (always) good, gordon gekko notwithstanding.

de

[cliffordu]

5. Not a strawman as far as I was concerned -

Predatory capitalism as it applies to oil companies claiming poverty while jacking up gas prices and showing obscene profits, the unregulated loan sharking by the mortgage industry, the insurance/health care scam......

I believe there are a LOTS of people in this country who think one means another....


c

[selador]

9. ok, but here we go

what are "obscene" profits?

are microsoft's profits obscene?

fwiw, again, i am a huge fan of capitalism and will admit to trading a fair share of energies (oil, natgas, etc.) and oil stocks, but what makes their profits "obscene?"

there are PLENTY of industries and companies for instance, that have much higher profit margins than XOM (exxon mobile) .

XOM has very large profits because it has 1) good profit margins and 2) is a huge company but like i said, TONS of companies much much higher profits based on any # of metrics (profits/share, profits/earning, etc.) than XOM et al

[ColbertWatcher]

14. Obscene Profits are...

...profits made off protections given to one industry but not others.

For instance, in what other industry does the CEO make $400million+, while the company gets free security from the U.S. military?


The hair never moves

[cliffordu]

18. Yep. NT

[cliffordu]

17. Ok.....Here we go...

How about this:

Profit for a select few, divided by the pain of the many = level of obscenity.

When gasoline hits 6 bucks a gallon and the oil companies post more record profits and your maid can't get to work, will it be painful to give her a raise??

[selador]

22. i don't have a maid

so that's a difficult hypothetical

[Vincardog]

10. n the end it works out for the benefit of the many and grows wealth. For the FEW

Capitalism is a monster that has to be controlled or it will destroy everything in service of the greedy few who control the resources.

[CTyankee]

15. "In the long run, we're all dead."

That is what J.M. Keynes said to his critics who claimed that, In the long run" the "invisible hand" of the market place would right all wrongs...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I never have

I've seen American history as a struggle of unbridled greed versus democracy.

[xchrom]

6. in the 70s in particular -- the republick party grew theories

that centered on taxes and property rights that had little to do with reality or living together in a civilized society.

it was in part thought out by william f buckley and paul weyrich as well as other characters like alan greenspan who were Randian based thinkers.

it found it's biggest bullhorn in ronald reagan -- who to a certain extent we are all still battling.

[sandnsea]

7. If you don't have economic freedom

it's kind of hard to exercise any other kind of freedom.

[cliffordu]

12. Yep, I have believed that all my life until recently -

when I see the 'life, liberty and the pursuit or happiness' eroded by multinational corporate profits - when tax breaks are still given to companies who busted unions and moved jobs overseas, their needs put above your own.

It looks to me like people worldwide are as indentured as they were under British Colonial rule, only the masters are corporations now, not a sovereign country.

Taxation without representation might not have anything to do with a 1040.

[sandnsea]

20. They are interfering with personal economic freedom

Which is why they were warned against back in the day too. We need to talk about bottom up economies, seems to me.

[cliffordu]

21. Right, trickle UP economics -

Like after WWII when unions were strong and the stock market was a lifetime investment strategy and not a get rich quick ponzi scheme.

It was no accident that my father could work in a mill, my mother could stay at home (she wanted to) and we owned a home and he paid cash for a car every 4 years. He belonged to a union.

I understand that energy is more expensive now and we benefited greatly from WWII manufacturing facilities and infrastructure, but, really, the only difference is the financial rape of the middle class and the Gordon Gecco assholes that scrapped the entire manufacturing base in the US.

[Adsos Letter]

8. One important aspect of this...

is the "language" of Freedom that bolstered the development of what Robert Bellah, in "Habits of the Heart," refers to as "radical individualism"...the language of individualism that underpins Americans’ most commonly held values, those of freedom and liberty, has resulted in a radical individualism that prioritizes self-aggrandizement over community.

The element of radical individualism most destructive to American society is also the most commonly held across all class levels: the belief that personal value is defined by economic achievement, and that the individual alone is responsible for his degree of success or failure. This emphasis on radical individualism has placed the United States in danger of succumbing to rule by socio-economic oligarchs whose loyalties lie outside the national community. Emphasis upon the individual, and his valuation in purely economic terms, has created a society increasingly atomized and unable to recognize their interdependence with others.

That, at least, was my precis on Bellah's work...I don't agree with some of his solutions, but I think he helps assign the genesis of the problem...we have, as a society, lost our commitment to community in favor of commitment to self in determining the moral valuations of decision making.

[Karenina]

16. Bingo!

[cliffordu]

19. Thanks, I'll read Bellah. N/T

[BlooInBloo]

11. Wie also asoom tat werdz may b spelt enee dam weigh wie pleez.

[cliffordu]

13. dat rite booboo