Things aren't going too well on army bases in Germany

[lebkuchen]

I live in a 1ID area, serving a division recently returned from a 2nd tour of Iraq. Taped-up signs advertising services for spousal abuse are everywhere....the post office, commissary, gas station pumps, you name it. Stories of who is hitting whom and "she won't leave him because she loves him even though he beats her" abound. Military spouses say that the family support agencies should be pro-active, going to families in anticipation of problems rather than leaving it up to family members to request help. Many spouses prefer to live away from military housing so they can avoid being exposed to other families' traumas, of abuse, accusations of infidelity, threats of divorce, and so on.

BRAC, or base realignment, has turned into a disaster. Families are being packed and funneled onto fewer bases with meager infrastructures, to include one-lane roads to base gates, resulting in more collisions on farm roads designed for tractors, as drunk soldiers attempt to pass on curves; 15 min. bottlenecks to get onto base after passing ID/vehicle/dog inspection all the while exposing drivers to terrorist attack as they wait their turn in line, not to mention the need to live 40 min. from base to find affordable housing.

As a response to the lack of housing (and BRAC planning), new developments are spouting up overnight in desperation, such as in the Grafenwoehr area, where military community developments are being built upon, and near, contaminated soil and water, exposing families to high levels of radon, radiation, and lead. The Green Party has come to the soldier's defense on this health and environmental nightmare because the DoD won't.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=53554

Meanwhile, soldiers fresh from their first or second tours of Iraq are having to cope with the stresses of transition, and many aren't coping. This month one soldier was shot by the German police for carrying a weapon while holding his German girlfriend hostage and threatening violence. German police killing American soldiers is a very rare event, and is indicative of the high tension in this environment no matter how the army wishes it would be ignored.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=60685&archive=true

The US army in Germany doesn't need the audacity of hope. It needs RELIEF.

[Romulox]

1. Germany has its own army; the US needs to GET OUT of Germany, Korea, and Japan

As well as Iraq.

[lebkuchen]

2. The US doesn't have the infrastructure stateside to support those overseas

Military families sent stateside realized that before the movers showed up. That's why so many military families prefer to live abroad. It's a recruitment/reenlistment issue.

[Romulox]

3. This makes ZERO sense; the purpose of the military is to "protect" the US

not a "make work" project, a retirement program, or an aid to the German/Korean/Japanese economy.

[bean fidhleir]

4. Would that it were so. The real purpose of the military is imperialism.

Making sure everyone everywhere knows that one false move and....

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Pass the man a cigar

and rome is a good example of the logic behind this

[bean fidhleir]

14. I appreciate the sentiment but

I'm a female non-smoker. A nice piece of choco would be nice, though. :evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Here

:donut:

[lebkuchen]

5. The US has commands all over the world

the Africa Command just being added, for what it's worth.

The European Command is in support of NATO, though granted, EUCOM generals have admitted they cannot perform their mission because so many units are now commited to Iraq. Therefore, not only is the US weakened, so is NATO.

How safe do you feel now?

[Romulox]

27. The US has lost two wars in the past 5 years; bragging about the US military's reach

is beyond grotesque given that fact.

[MattSh]

37. NATO was there to protect us from the "Soviet threat".

Guess what. That disappeared almost 20 years ago. Why the hell wasn't NATO disbanded? What the hell are they protecting us from now?

Oh that's right. They're protecting us from countries that don't bow down and kiss the feet of our corporations. Like Russia.

Living in the former USSR, guess what. I DO feel pretty safe.

[lebkuchen]

48. Missile "defense" would be one important subject

for discussion.

[MADem]

12. Well, the purpose of the military is national defense, which can include what is termed power

projection. Having personnel deployed around the globe makes it easier to get to hotspots quickly. We also have treaties with other nations that we will ally with them, in essence, plus up THEIR forces and add to their protective umbrella, in exchange for this forward basing. It's why we are in Germany and Japan and Korea, specifically, and to a lesser extent, Italy, and to a very slight extent, Spain. It's also why we're in Guam and Diego Garcia and Oman and Bahrain, and in teensy numbers to keep the carping down, Saudi Arabia.

Iraq, well, that's George's Folly, that.

It's the National Guard that used to have the principal role of protecting the physical homeland, actually. Now they're up front with the Reserves doing the Eye Rack Thang.

There's also the issue of Foreign Military Sales, which is a subject we could talk about for years. That's a big piece of the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Corporate complex.

It's a big pillar of the US economy, like it or not--and that's a big part of the military "parcel" and a piece of why it is so difficult to turn those swords into plowshares.

[Romulox]

29. The purpose of the US Military is perpetual war; I expect space will be the next "front"

[MADem]

32. Well, that's not what they say. But your point about space is certainly valid. NT

[greyghost]

34. Not if Bush Co. has its way, it's Iran.

[MADem]

7. The BRAC is reducing our footprint, but since Pooty Poot has a besmirched soul, apparently,

I can't see us leaving totally, at least not until we repair the damage W has wrought around the globe. That antiquated defense plan might have some utility should there be an "Archduke-ish" incident somewhere, and WW3 erupt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I'm afraid that incident will happen

BEFORE W leaves and in an area on or around ancient Persia.

I hate to say it but the people in charge are itching for yet another front... their itching includes nukes by the way

And if we are lucky every nation in the world will just close borders... and forget bout WW III

So at this point OUR leaders are far scarier than Pooty poo

[MADem]

15. Pootie poot would be involved in your scenario. Note the location of

Iran, the Caspian and Mother Russia..! A lot of that "Russian" caviar is actually Iranian.

It's why we kept the Turks on the payroll, quite generously, too, for so many years--half a million soldiers all ready to help us fight those Cold War Russkies at the drop of a hat!

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yep, they will

but because we went looking for a fight and WE created the incident.

Yep, the crazies in the WH make me feel oh so safe...

By the way, what were nuclear triggers doing AWAY?

Oh never mind, we should always look for the other to do things to us, instead of the more than obvious evidence now that it is our own leadership we should be utterly scared from

[kineneb]

39. might add China to mix

Iran has been signing oil deals with them. They would not like it if their access to ME oil was, ahem, disrupted...

Interesting (although slightly biased) site for Iranian news and culture:
http://payvand.com/news/

and Happy Norooz!

[MADem]

41. Happy Nowrooz to you too!! Has Haji Firooz passed your way?

It's a trick to explain THAT guy in the US with his Al Jolson-esque makeup!!

I love that site--I forgot about it! Thanks for the link!

You're right about China--those guys are all over Iran lately. They always traded with them, even back when the US was having nothing to do with them, but now that relationship is on steroids.

[kineneb]

42. no Haji Firooz

unless I count my Mom- she sent me a package of gaz... nummmy stuff.

[lebkuchen]

10. reduced footprint is a minor issue compared to the stress that it has added

to the already over-stressed soldiers, albeit small percentage of Americans who have volunteered to serve (but would get out if they weren't stop-lossed because where the hell are the bennies?).

Once stop-loss ends and the current batch of soldiers says to hell with it, who in the US will want to take their place under these circumstances?

[MADem]

13. Stop loss won't end until they aren't needed anymore. Then, they'll do a RIF.

Everyone who wants to leave will be allowed to go, and if they haven't reduced the numbers enough, they'll pick people that will be shown the door, despite their years of faithful service.

We had to do that back in the mid-nineties, lost a lot of very good career professionals, too, but the five-year budget was irreversible and the downsizing was motivated by the BRAC. What you are seeing in GE is a result of actions that were initiated under GHW Bush, actually. It takes forever to implement a BRAC action--sometimes decades.

If they need more people and can't find them, they'll up the signing bonuses even more than they are now, or increase the number of "secret soldiers"--you know, those Blackwater-type guys. Hell, they don't even have to be American, and when you're done with them, you hand them their pinks slips!

[lebkuchen]

17. Blame BRAC on GHW Bush?

I've lived overseas for the last 18 years, and BRAC is not the result of GHW Bush. It's the result of his mutant son. I don't think you appreciate the extreme changes the base realignment is forcing everyone into right now, changes that don't make any sense to those living in the here and now, especially when considering the infrastructure currently in place yet given up for "Timbuktu" in another part of the country.

BRAC has been as successful as Rummy's vision of a "quick and light" force. BRAC, like Rummy's vision, is "pork barrel" all the way, with the Village Idiot's stamp on every decision. Drawdown, by the way, has stopped. Prior BRAC imprint "goals" have been rescinded, by Bush, or rather, by his puppet masters. Why? Multiple reasons probably....no support infrastructure stateside and the DoD's admittance that an overseas tour to the land of beer and more beer is a perk it can't afford to give up unless it wants an "Army by Attica."

BTW, the rush is on to sign up HS brats to the Navy, no matter what base they're on. I wonder why that is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Actually she is right

the process started when Chenney was SecDef...

His brilliant son is just carrying it to more than just a logical conclusion They don't like the forces, PERIOD

[lebkuchen]

22. the Bushies don't like the forces so do everything possible to undermine the forces

and hamper enlistments/reenlistments while engaging in multi-front wars?

I realize the Bushies are dumb, but they're more cunning than what you make them out to be.

They are about making money, which means abandoning self-supporting bases to build new bases elsewhere in support of private contractors while sending Base Support Battalions to the front.

Pure privatization and profiteering...that is what is happening under BRAC. If the Bushies had wanted to reduce imprint, why did they drum up the Africa Command? The African Command is moving to Stuttgart as I type because Liberia doesn't want the headache.

Reduced imprint my @ss. Imperialism, a term someone mentioned in this thread, isn't about a reduced imprint.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I am not making them to be dumb

that IS EXACTLY the process that Chenney started.

Then he went to work for Halliburton and under his careful watch DOD has accelerated the process

And yes, it is about the American Empire...

Trust me, I know... been paying attention to this since it started

Hell, the PNAC plan... was published in the NYT in 1992, months before Clinton took over, The essay was written by Under Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz

[lebkuchen]

24. Ah, yes, PNAC

I "beep."

PNAC, BRAC, to what/whomever you wish to attribute the army's current dismal state of affairs, the fact is, the army is in the shitter right now, and this thread is an observation of its demise from across the pond.

Whether US troops should be stateside or not is another issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. That's nice to know but you should know that the process

didn't start five years ago, or two years ago, but over a decade ago

It will take that long to reverse the process... due to the way the DOD works and how it tends to go one way once a process is set in motion


And you are telling me something I already know. It is not the army that is in a dismal shape. It is the armed forces, whose back has been broken by ideologues, As a NAVY WIFE (thankfully now hubby is retired), I keep my eye on these things.

[lebkuchen]

49. Well, we're about to bomb Iran

so considering how long it takes that wheel to grind to a stop, we'll be in Syria before you know it.

I worked for the uncle of the atom bomb, so I'm aware of how long it takes for a process to shut down long after the impetus for that process has collapsed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. With neocons in charge the only thing that will stop them is WW III

and we on the loosing side

[lebkuchen]

53. Yep.

Thanks for sifting through the PNAC document, btw. I forwarded that info on to others, bold, underlined and all.

;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. I have to thank Ray taliafero for them

he started talking about them and LINKING to the PNAC site as early as 2001

I listened to him at night in navy housing.. him and Bernie... then I discovered Malloy...

[MADem]

25. Yes, it is--specifically, his SECDEF. A guy named CHENEY.

I had to work those BRAC issues--in Europe--when Cheney was SECDEF. There was a lot of consolidation and accompanying MILCON to the effort, as well as a "Yard Sale" element to many of the closures that went on for the next decade.

Just because it "happens" in Year X doesn't mean it was "planned" in Year X.

The BRAC process started in 1989. That's when the greater plan was laid out. Every BRAC round that followed after Defense Secretary Cheney's first big blast ( see http://archive.gao.gov/d26t7/140130.pdf and, more to the point, http://archive.gao.gov/d32t10/146388.pdf ) came as a result of Cheney's machinations. Of course, Cheney's machinations enabled HALLIBURTON to take over many of the roles formerly retained by military personnel. See the Quid Pro Quo at work, there?


From my second cite, written in 1992, while GHW Bush was President, and Dick Cheney was SECDEF--this was the early stages of the whole plan, where the equipment and personnel were dispersed. Since this is a government document, owned by us all, there is no copyright, and copyright restrictions do not apply:

In response to a June 1991 request from the Chairman, Subcommittee on
Military Personnel and Compensation, House Armed Services Committee,
we reviewed the Army’s implementation of its force reduction plan in
Europe to identify issues that should be addressed as troop and equipment
withdrawals proceed. We also reviewed the impact of the force reductions
in Europe on U.S. bases and on the quality of life of soldiers returning to
the United States. To do this, we interviewed Army officials responsible
for the drawdown in Europe and in the United States and reviewed
available documentation on the plans, costs, and issues associated with
the drawdown.

We discussed all aspects of the European drawdown with officials at
Headquarters, U.S. Army, Europe, Heidelberg, Germany, and obtained
documentation on their plans for, and status of, the military and civilian
personnel drawdown as well as its management of equipment reductions.
We also discussed with these officials how they were monitoring and
accounting for drawdown costs.

We discussed equipment management issues and obtained related
documentation from the 2 1st Theater Army Area Command in
Kaiserslautern, Germany, and the 200th Theater Army Materiel
Management Center in Zweibrucken, Germany. We also discussed the
drawdown with officials at V Corps Headquarters in Frankfurt, Germany;
Headquarters, U.S. European Command, Stuttgart, Germany; and other
locations. In assessing usAm3uR’s management of excess equipment, we
visited equipment storage facilities in Germersheim and Kaiserslautern,
Germany, and observed equipment stockpiles containing war reserve
materiel and equipment from inactivating units. At Germersheim, we
obtained documentation on the amount and condition of equipment in
storage.

In the United States, we interviewed officials at Department of the Army
headquarters in Washington, D.C., and at Forces Command, Fort
McPherson, Georgia, and discussed plans and guidance for receiving
personnel at U.S. installations, We also obtained their views on the
problems we noted at the installations we visited. We also visited four U.S.
Army installations receiving units from Europe. These included Fort
Benning, Georgia; Fort Carson, Colorado; Fort Sill, Oklahoma; and Fort
Stewart, Georgia. At these installations, we reviewed stationing plans,
equipment status documents, and housing market information and
discussed their plans for, and experiences in, receiving individuals and
units from Europe. We observed the condition of ECU unit equipment at
Fort Carson and Fort Sill and spoke to personnel associated with the EC3
units at all four units about the status of their equipment. At Fort Carson,
we talked to enlisted soldiers about their experiences in locating housing
and receiving household goods and about other quality of life issues.
We conducted this review from August 1991 to April 1992 in accordance
with generally accepted government auditing standards.

[lebkuchen]

26. And you think Cheney's plan was a good one because....

it reduces "imprint?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Nobody is defending Chenney

just pointing the HISTORY of it.

There is a game out there called Armageddon 2089, written by some brits. You should find a copy and read it. GenDef (General Defense) is a fully privatized US Military... that is the goal of the likes of Chenney. It is ideology

[MADem]

31. Here's why I find discussions on DU to be like pissing into the wind.

:wtf:


Where, pray tell, did I EVER say Cheney's plan was a good one?

I gave you a fact--it DOES reduce FOOTPRINT. Total buildings to maintain, heat, light, total lawns to water, cut, and weed, total land leases to be paid, total fencing to mend, total maintenance employees to employ, that sort of shit.

Nowhere did I "characterize" it as good--or bad, or indifferent.

Have a nice day.

:eyes:

[lebkuchen]

47. The Germans and Japanese pick up the tab.

For example, it's cheaper to keep all those Marines on Okinawa than it is stateside; the host nation pays, and that includes utilities for every American.

When you have five military commands stationed around the world, the Africa Command recently being added, that is not a "reduced footprint."

Nor is it a "reduced footprint" to move soldiers from their host country posts to invade sovereign nations, their positions filled by Bush's contractual party contributors, such as multimillionaire Daniel Pond, with his ubiquitous "security" forces, as seen at the gate on every base in Germany.

[MADem]

50. They don't pay ALL of it, but they do pay a lot of it. It is a subsidy, not the full tab.

There is what's called "burden-sharing" or "cost sharing" agreements. See, it's in OUR interest as well to be forward deployed.

We've been bickering about it in recent years: http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUST12380020071008

The Japanese don't pay any utilities for personnel billeted off base, either. Not that USMC allows the units in northern Okinawa (Hansen and Schwab, e.g.) to live off-base, but there are personnel at Futenma who do. The Japanese do pay the salaries of local national employees, though. The downside of that is that they'll sometimes get very unilateral when they decide to cut a position, and if you aren't rigorous, you can end up losing a valued individual.

In Germany, KMC is massive (biggest concentration in the world) but there have been base closures in GE. A load of them in the 90s, in fact. This is an interesting snapshot of where we were at midway through that process in the nineties: http://www.bicc.de/publications/reports/report04/report4.pdf

A reduced footprint, in the context that I applied it, is when you take several commands in a region, strip out the middlemen, streamline the command structure, consolidate the facilities, unload the old, crumbling infrastructure, install new MILCON, reduce the total personnel assigned, and return the unused facilities to the host nation. Rather like we did in Naples, IT. And like we have done in GE as well. The reason you do this is either to reduce your overall end strength, as we did in the last decade, or to free up assets for use in other theaters, as Bush is doing now.

I'm not going to get into a dramatic back-and-forth with you about Bush's bullshit. I mean, really--duh. Who the fuck is HAPPY about Iraq? Why even toss that out, gratuitously? Everyone knows that the war sucks. Everyone wishes he hadn't started it. The challenge now is to get the hell out of there.

They're using rent-a-cops at many installations stateside, too. And the Threatcon (or Force Protection Condition, as they floridly term it nowadays, though no one uses that term) is always ALPHA. Hey, when it's ALPHA, you don't need extra people on those gates! Of course, when the time gets close to (s)electing President John "W" McCain, we may be seeing more of that ORANGE flavor that Tom Ridge used to trot out on a regular basis. I wouldn't put anything past them.

[lebkuchen]

52. I'm not military, but the Japanese paid for my utilities for 9 years.

I lived in Misugama (and I would have gladly reimbursed the Japanese if they'd only policed their own streets of youthful racers and that awful "Love is Blue" song piped into my bedroom every 7:00 a.m.--in the U.S. those loud speakers would have lasted less than a day.)

Everyone, including military, had to turn in their receipts in those years.

It also used to be that it was cheaper for US Marines to be on Okinawa than stateside because of the subsidies the host nation paid to the U.S. Maybe that was smoke blown by the base commander at the time; perhaps things have changed. At any rate, I'd like to see the Okinawans free of US culture, though I have local friends whose businesses would suffer.

If you've never read "Girl with the White Flag," consider doing so.

[MADem]

54. No, it wasn't smoke--it's actually true. The USMC stationed on Oki, at least in the

northern areas, were on unaccompanied tours. They never brought their families with them (they either stayed in base housing at their parent command, or lived on the economy near the parent command, or--the cheapest option--went home to mother), so all that expense was avoided. The barracks were substandard for many years, which saved money, and many of the base management expenses were shouldered by the host nation. Because they lived on base, they didn't get a lot of those special pays that can make living overseas a pretty lucrative gig.

Thanks for the book recommendation--I looked it up and it does look good!


"Love is Blue"-- :rofl: That was a while ago!!!!!!! Here ya go--an earworm!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9FYD1dlw4E

[lebkuchen]

55. I dated a doctor stationed at Schwab

and showed him my favorite haunts on the island. At my secret garden coffeeshop, open air, looking out onto the tropical plants, butterflies, flowers, listening to the birds while sitting on tatami, he signed and said, "I haven't been this relaxed in months." And we weren't at war!

The book is the memory of a 6 year old Okinawan girl during the war. I thought about it the other day and wondered if we would ever get a similar story published, as told from the eyes of an Iraqi girl during this god-forsaken invasion.

I'll bet you anything "Blue" is still waking up the neighborhood. I never thought I would get used to it, but after 9 years, I was oblivious, likewise to the roar of the jets and the whirling of the helos flying past my apt. near Kadena.

I'm moving to another flightline soon, and when somebody pointed out an approaching plane the other day, I said, "That's nothin'!"

[kineneb]

40. this is part of why there are few mil. bases left in Calif.

We pissed them off, and we had the first round of base closures as punishment. NorCal just has Travis AFB left; the naval bases and all the other AFBs are all closed.

"They" may regret this in the long run; if the entire economy flies apart, they won't have enough military power to enforce martial law here. It bites the big one, when ya' don't do real long-term planning. Makes me glad to live in a low-population rural county, accessed by two-lane roads only.

[MADem]

43. True, dat! It's similar to what Nixon did to Massachusetts--screwed 'em!

Nixon got rid of our wonderful Naval Hospital, the baastid, and started NAS Weymouth on the road to ruin as well.

Hmmmm....maybe they'll have to hire those Blackwater guys over here, too!

[lovuian]

9. I think the Military programming is also encouraging

aggressive behavior and the extra tour of duties are putting them over the edge

Our Military has been driven crazy

[lebkuchen]

11. This is predictable, isn't it?

How would any of us cope under the same circumstances, especially after being told by the CIC-in- waiting with five deferments, "Quit your griping, you volunteered."

I've read stories about what the soldiers face when they return stateside. The right says, "You've been to Iraq? Cool! How many Iraqis did you shoot?"

The left says, "You had no business being over there, let alone beyond US borders."

Both comments ignore the reality of the situation and what the American electorate has burdened our soldiers with.

[lovuian]

16. what they put these men and women through is shameless

they are traumatized

[lebkuchen]

18. It is really sad.

and now it's US society's problem because these families, broken and/or struggling, will be coming home with these traumas. I predict that Americans will voice their awareness of and sympathy for this tragedy and be willing to bear the burden of Bush's disaster, and their own relative inaction (compared to how most European countries would have responded by now under the same circumstances) by voting overwhelmingly for democratic candidates in November.

That's just my personal faith in America speaking.

[Karenina]

33. German cops do NOT shoot first and ask questions later.

[lebkuchen]

44. Nope. When they hear a gun is involved, though,

they usually get the last word.

[lovuian]

35. k&R

Kick

[Orwellian_Ghost]

36. K&R n/t

[Karenina]

38. ANOTHER U.S. Soldier behaving VERY BADLY.

http://www.thelocal.de/10905/20080326/

[lebkuchen]

45. Jesus. I had not seen that yet.

I've heard that the army recruiting standards have been reduced to two felonies and three misdemeanors. Sounds like this Spc just achieved his third felony count.

[lebkuchen]

46. Addendum: Military warns Bush over mounting Iraq strain

President told of pressures facing troops and families as he plans for future

Behind the Pentagon's closed doors, U.S. military leaders told President Bush Wednesday they are worried about the Iraq war's mounting strain on troops and their families. But they indicated they would go along with a brief halt in pulling out troops this summer.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23822394/

How I wish someone on the Joint Chiefs would say, "I won't go along with the current policy, and I'm willing to go public and announce that Bush is "nuts."

Meanwhile, the craven Joint Chiefs get trumped by a winger who never served a day in his life....Frederick Kagan, who is one of the authors of the PNAC document.

One of the leading advocates of Bush's troop buildup last year, military historian Frederick Kagan of the American Enterprise Institute, said in an interview Wednesday that security conditions in Iraq, while better, are not good enough to justify any commitment to troop reductions beyond July.

"The military reality is that it's virtually inconceivable that it will make sense to draw down below 15 brigades this year," Kagan said.

Wingers who never served are making policy in the Bush administration. Keep that in mind when you vote.