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Why does the right jump to "socialism" so quickly when we talk about fixing health care?

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:20 AM
Original message
Why does the right jump to "socialism" so quickly when we talk about fixing health care?
People are dying for lack of health insurance. Some of the remedies being proposed are hardly radical at all- Clinton's plan makes things better for health insurance companies if I am not mistaken. Can there really be anyone who doesn't know someone who has suffered terribly because they were without insurance, either by losing their home or their life? I would think that the health care situation alone would be enough to make everyone in their right mind vote Democrat this year.

But its not just the fear of terrorism that the right uses... its the other ism... SOCIALISM. Thats even scarier to some of these wingnuts.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Because socialism.....
and this is a simplified definition (too early for the OED), is in part "share and share alike." RWers see health care as part of that definition. Most Republicans do not want to pay taxes for people to have health care or have their taxes raised. Their philosophy..."I got mine the hard way or I worked for mine, everyone else should too." They aren't really scared of "socialism" they just don't want to let go of their money. Socialism is the excuse.

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I've heard the "McCain plan" takes away the tax incentive
for employers to offer health care and gives individuals a $2500 tax credit to buy a plan. Where can you buy health insurance for $2500 a year?! His plan is to let us all die!
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I know
And I don't know of anywhere you can buy health insurance that cheap. Most single payer health insurance is approximately 750.00 per month with out any pre existing conditions and with a 2000 deductable plus no prescription benefits. When my husband retires, ours will be $1,700 a month which is about 80.00 more than my teachers retirement.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wingnuts don't realize is we've already got socialized medicine...
our troops, medicaid and medicare...all provided by the government.

No candidate will put forth a plan that provides health care for all and that also cuts out health insurance companies. Those effing companies are that powerful. :grr:
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. you mean no current candidate, right?
you did support and vote for kucinichm, didn't you?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. As much as I like Kucinich, I did not vote for him...
Perhaps I should have said any candidate that has a snowball's chance of winning the WH.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
35. if you didn't vote for him...
...then you denied him the chance you predicted he didn't have. and, you have no call to complain about poor health plans.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Not just them - students at large state universities get amazingly
subsidized care....a doctor's visit on-campus is $6. Free X-rays. Discounted prescriptions. And that is before using any of the health insurance for more serious issues.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. My husband threw in VA services. His health care is done at the VA n/t
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. They view health care as a privilege, not a right....
Some are really radical libertarians, and advocate stuff like privatized police, schools, and fire protection. The fact is that a need in the community was met by "socializing" all these services, and it benefited everyone, especially with unseen side benefits. Health care could be considered a similar necessary service for our communities and should be public, just like schools, police, fire department, libraries, etc.

To be honest, they use the word "Socialism" because it has a negative connotation in this country, where we had "red scares" and are inundated with propaganda about the "evils" of Socialism. They are hoping it works again this time just as it has worked in the past. The thing is that I think many Americans are getting fed up with capitalistic health care, and actually are apathetic to the whole "Its Socialism!" scare. They want health care at affordable costs, period, regardless as to whether or not its actually socialism.
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Because socialism is not sustainable you idiot!
Don't make us say it out loud,
only CAPITALISM is sustainable!
Get with the program!
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. It is not socialism they are afraid of.
They quickly jump in to give socialism a try when the finance corporations, like Bear Stearns, are in trouble. The republican government didn't hesitate to bailout their Wall Street buddies when their gambles on sub-prime securities went sour. Socialism is an easy scare for republicans. It's code for living off the government but they don't mind socializing Wall Street and corporations.

It's just the little guy they want to stand on their own two feet. Corporations, Wall Street, bankers are all supported with your and my tax dollars.

Why they find it so offensive to help the poor and suffering individual, yet pour billions into helping the rich and powerful is beyond me. Can republicans be so stupid that they don't realize that bailouts for bankers is socialism?
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Because they would claim that bailing out a corporation is a public good
and provides maximum benefit to all through the ripple effect that saving the company will have on the economy, whereas rescuing one poor individual from going under just because he lost his job and had unexpected medical bills would benefit only that person and his family, not society as a whole. Besides, it would teach him to be irresponsible and not take care of himself because the government will always be there to bail him out of his poor personal choices. Tsk tsk.

Of course, they are wrong, insensitive and heartless, but that's their justification, anyway, for saying that Bear Stearns needs help, but that guy down the block who was taken advantage of by a predatory lender and can't pay off his mortgage should be forced out into the street.
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. If not for losers...
how would they know they are "winners?"

Superficially they are not stupid.

Their bleached bones should hang
from every utility pole in the nation!
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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. The American way of capitalism: privatize profits; socialize risk...
Which is why corporations routinely get bailed out with taxpayer dollars, while the taxpayers themselves get absolutely nothing useful for their money.

That's unless you're a big fan of building enough weaponry to turn the planet into a glowing lump of charcoal.

I'd like my tax money to go toward other things -- like fixing rotting infrastructures, restoring broken public services, reforming and completely restructuring this bad joke of a medical system.

And I'd want to make sure that my tax money went toward allocating funds to bring every single high-ranking former and current member of the Bush administration to trial on charges of high treason for ignoring their oaths to the Constitution in favor of running a fascist national security state and gleefully sanctioning the practice of torture as an acceptable interrogation technique.

But since I can't afford to buy a couple of Senators like Bear Stearns can, my agenda will never be addressed in this corrupt bribocracy unless everybody stops pretending that we live in a functional democratic republic, refuses to acknowledge anything beyond local government, quietly and informally secedes from the union and lobbies heavily in Ottawa for annexation as the province of Baja Canada.

Who the hell inside the beltway would miss Oregon -- except our senators and house members -- and I've gone well beyond caring whether they're having a good day or not.


wp
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. because decades of propaganda and advertising have been very effective
in brainwashing a nation of mullets.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. Because socialism empowers people and eats into the profits. Wingers can't stand that.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. They cannot discuss the issue rationally so they have to use
emotional scare words.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. Yes! Code words! eom
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
12. Simple, jingoistic, easy to digest, large print slogan chanting for public consumption
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
14. They use Socialism as a weapon to accuse you of being un-American. A form of McCarthyism.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. There is a pretty simple answer
Edited on Thu Mar-27-08 07:20 AM by Enthusiast
The American citizen has for years been brainwashed by the insurance industry to protect their corporate interests. One of the more effective ways they have done this is through the use of their Spokesmen, like Rush Limbaugh and the like. These radio hate mongers decry any social program as socialism. Then they continually point out the evils of socialism. Then, as if that wasn't enough, they continually point out how stupid and misguided those that would be advocates of a social program are. After hours and hours of this on Faux News and the radio programs these "good mericans" can no longer consider the issue rationally. I listened to Limbaugh deride Social Security for a solid hour one day. His brilliant explanation was that Social Security was just another "welfare program". Of course we know how bad a welfare program is because (Rush and Paul Harvey) have told us. These knuckle dragger listeners now believe that the Canadian Health Care system is killing millions annually because of inherent "socialistic inefficiency". Those indoctrinated will fight to the death defending the status quo on hehalf of the insurance industry.

We will never accomplish anything worthwhile in this country until there is an equal and opposite media effort by our side.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. because facts have no chance against ignorant emotion ...
and you can incite a crowd to do a lot of shi* that any rational person would never do if it was just that person ...
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. they don't want their tax-money to benefit brown or poor people in ANY way shape or form.
nt
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. Typical straw man argument.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. Please - their lame-ass claims of "socialism" don't mean shit -
what they are really trying to say is that they cannot STAND the idea of spending American tax money on Americans in AMERICA. And believe me, Americans understand very clearly, after the last eight years, just how much Republicans HATE America.

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warren pease Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. Because they're been taught to by generations of wingnut talking points...
... and because some of them actually believe all the propaganda about this being the world's greatest health care system and how we'd be crazy to change it. They obviously haven't had their own personal managed care moments yet, or they're too thick to recognizing them when they happen.

(CAUTION: Another very long post. Read at your own risk. Do not operate a car or heavy machinery for at least three hours after finishing it.)

Two important distinctions in terminology: health care and for-profit medical insurance have absolutely nothing to do with each other except in the twisted minds of Chicago School libertarian fanatics and free market pitchmen.

Single-payer DOES NOT have to equal socialized medicine, although it can and does in some countries. But in general, states, provinces and countries haven't set their single-payer systems up that way. This scenario is more typical:

Let's say your doc has his own small family practice, which he runs as an LLC. He probably accepts payment from a couple of dozen different insurance carriers. Does that mean he works for, say, Blue Cross or Cigna or Aetna? Of course not.

Under single-payer, he would no more work for the government than he now works for an insurance company. He gets paid by the feds, but runs his own business exactly as he has for many years.

So docs and hospitals continue to operate as they always have, although for-profit facilities must convert to non-profits. The truly revolutionary change is that now the feds foot the bill via a progressive tax that hits the rich hardest and the poor not at all.

In fact, if a patient just looks at the outward signs, things are very much as they've always been. You see the same doctors and support staff. You have blood drawn at the same labs. If you're seriously injured or suddenly become ill, you end up at the same ER. You see the same specialists. If surgery is required, the same group of medical professionals handles the entire process – from pre-op to rehab. You find that service is about as fast, or as slow, as ever. And if you want a tummy tuck or nose job, you're still going to have to pay for it out of your own pocket.


Of course, that's a hell of a lot of facts for a winger weaned on GOP lies and bullshit talking points to handle. Then again, you'd think that by now this scam of a system would have left its mark on just about everybody in the US. But if not, here's a quick list of characteristics common to single-payer systems, not one of which is part of our own medical disaster:

One nation, one payer
Everybody in, nobody out
No exclusions for pre-existing conditions
No doctor bills
No hospital bills
No deductibles
No co-pays
No in network
No out of network
No corporate profits
No more medical bankruptcies

I don't know what the hell is so hard to understand about that. But it scares the shit out of the for-profit vampires. Their trade association spent a reported $100 million on the infamous Harry and Louise ad and PR campaign the last time health care "reform" was being discussed -- the mostly awful "HillaryCare" plan circa 1993 that had none of the above attributes and ended up a just another suck-up to the for-profit medicine machine. I imagine they would have gladly spent a hundred times that if the money could have guaranteed the continued existence of their cash cow policies and usurious premiums.

The success of Harry and Louise in turning millions of angry, reform-minded health care consumers into a pack of addle-pated sheep too scared to mess with "the greatest health care system in the world" convinced me that the combined influence of a third-world public educational system and an all-powerful propaganda machine has all but eliminated critical thinking in the US and replaced it with name recognition, happy talk ad slogans and easy to memorize buzz phrases. Pretty effective, too, since health care "reform" hasn't reared its ugly head until now.

That $100 million bought them 15 years of slack to continue operating as rapaciously as ever, despite the fact that they're just about universally despised by patients, rate payers, docs, nurses, other health care professionals, hospitals, the uninsured, the underinsured, labor unions, most professional associations and just about anyone with a brain, a calculator and a conscience.

Even big biz is starting to see for-profit medicine as a major problem for two main reasons. It's costing them a fortune to maintain their employee insurance plans in the face of double-digit increases in premiums each year for the past seven. Worse yet, anything they sell, from cars to IT systems management services, will either have to include a covert surcharge to recoup some or all of those costs, or they'll just have to eat them by accepting lower per-unit margins. In some cases, they're simply priced out of a given market where their goods or services have to compete with those from countries with rational health care systems and which allow them to undercut US pricing and still earn higher margins.

So with that kind of broad-based opposition building against these for-profit thieves, they're starting to feel a little heat again. Fortunately for them, they've greased enough political palms over the years that they can count on the support of a critical mass of Congress, not to mention slavish obedience from the executive branch.

Still, they're not trusting enough to pin their industry's long-term survival exclusively on the bribes they pay to keep their Congressional employees voting in their favor. Over the past decade, they've expanded their propaganda efforts into sophisticated TV marketing campaigns that link the iconic concepts of career success, physical attractiveness, the reproductive practices of white people and the fast track to upward mobility with the nurturing, cordial, long-term intimate relationships developed and enjoyed by the insured and their insurers.

It's not medicine for money, we're told; let's not get bogged down in the squalid netherworld of cash and carry. No, no, no. Look at the big picture. We're discussing issues that transcend a few dollars and cents. We're talking about the unique partnerships the American medical insurance industry builds between its exceptionally friendly and helpful company reps and those discerning members of the public who know a company that's in sync with their lifestyles when they see one.

Nor is it a business in any generally accepted sense of the word. Sure there's execs and shareholders and receptionists and computers and all the trappings of a conventional business. But look a little closer and we see it's actually just a bunch of kindly, caring, compassionate, good-hearted folks leading rewarding and satisfying lives by working for a company that provides its members with the finest, most technically advanced, most affordable, most accessible and most effective health care available anywhere, at any time, in the entire history of the planet. And by golly, wouldn't you like to be a member of this happy crowd?

Let's not talk money now. Let's look at the buffer zone we'll create between you and the harsh dog-eat-dog world that's just waiting for you to fuck up so it can steal all your money and other liquid assets and dis your mama.

So sit back, close your eyes for a minute and feel the soothing, calming, insulated feeling of total protection you get when you leave all your health care worries and concerns in the hands of these good-hearted, generous people whose only desire in life is to improve yours. And if that doesn't work, take a few of these and call us in the morning.

Meanwhile, on the other side of happy talk la la land, the money just keeps on rolling in. I'm not sure I have the skills or the right calculator to do the math, but you can if you want:

- The total for-profit medical market was worth about $2.2 TRILLION in 2007. It was probably half that in 1993 but that's just a random guess.

- Industry analysts estimate that between 25 and 40 percent of each dollar they take in is either returned to shareholders as profits or covers the cost of doing business, which are defined so loosely that the IRS auditors must laugh their fat parasitic asses off as they wade through the thousands of insane deductions these bastards claim as vital business expenses.

- You'd have to look up the industry's CAGR to develop an accurate formula describing how many billions, probably trillions in profits that brilliant $100 million investment returned.

- Whatever that number turns out to be, it's going to be astounding and should crank up the anger level to new levels.

And one final point I think is worth making:

The US is unique in the world in its child-like belief in corporate good citizenship and the intrinsic benevolence of a medical system based solely on profits. This is not only naive, it just can't happen because US law and SEC regulations demand that a publicly owned, for-profit corporation base its entire business model on achieving one single objective: maximizing shareholder equity.

Anything that bumps the stock price is good; anything that lowers it is bad. So paying claims is bad because it sucks money from the bottom line, while not paying claims is great because it saves money that contributes to corporate profitability. This ultimately helps raise the price of the stock, keeps the investors happy and keeps the SEC off the CFO's back for another quarter.

In short, it's literally impossible for a US for-profit publicly held medical insurer to live up to its opposing obligations to both its subscribers and shareholders at the same time. And, as noted above, if somebody has to get screwed, by law it's going to be the peasants.

So stay healthy and, if you happen to get sick, hope that you're in Canada or Western Europe at the time.


wp
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. They don't mind providing for the financial health of Corporations.
As for the personage afforded Coporations. I think this is entirely unfair. Corporations unlike real people have the potential to be immortal. There are Business that were, ahem, born 100 years before you were and will still be here 100 years after you die. If only we cared that much about the longevity of real people. Look at the Bear Sterns bailout. This is just one company or Corporate person. Can you imagine the out cry and backlask if the government said they were going to spend even 1 Billion to keep a real flesh and blood person alive?
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. if it were the daughter of a corporate CEO
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. They think redbaiting still has power
in an electorate so young they need to have socialism defined for them, let alone demonized. Mixed results on this one, wingnuts.
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erebusman Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. because we have failed to re-frame the argument
This is our failure IMO.

They have jumped to calling it "socialized medicine" and its catchy key-phrase way to deflate our argument(s) for universal healthcare.

I like the way Michael Moore put it ..we should be calling it "christianized medicine". There could be a more effective and catchy way to frame this but I havent heard it yet.

peace
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TheCentepedeShoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
27. Because they can't
bear to think that anyone, anywhere would dare to consider the idea worthy of discussion and study. Throw out the S word to scare their listeners/watchers into images of the old CCCP...er USSR.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Because they don't realize that socialism is a good thing. n/t
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
31. We do have socialism. For the wealthy.
For everyone else, it's the shit-end of unbridled corporatism.

I can't believe ANYone is still fooled by the RED MENACE canard in 2008. Well, maybe I can.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
33. cause it is

as is social security and unemployment insurance. It is the compromise that FDR made with the Left, when there really was a Left, to forestall even 'leftier' change. They rightly see it as a slippery slope, "if this, then what else?".

The obvious social benefit of such programs for the vast majority must be attacked at any and all opportunity, thus the recurrent predictions of the demise of social security, when it is just bookkeeping games."It doesn't work, it doesn't work!" they scream.

But it does work.

It is all a matter of priorties, is society to serve the needs of the majority or the wants of a handful of capitalists?
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
36. Because so far it has worked.
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 01:22 AM by Herdin_Cats
When they use the "s" word to describe universal health care congress can't run away from the idea fast enough. The RW is just sticking to a strategy that works.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
37. Because they don't know what the hell socialism is
It's a boogeyman word to them, like "liberal". They just attach it to anything the party leaders say they shouldn't like.
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