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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:26 AM
Original message
The Dangerous Theism of Chris Hedges
Chris Hedges recently published an article called "The Dangerous Atheism of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris," ( http://www.alternet.org/rights/80449 ) but he failed to include in it any indication of what he thinks is dangerous about their atheism. He thinks they have horrible political opinions, but does not explain how those relate to atheism. He thinks they have a fetish for science and technology, but does not explain how that relates to atheism. He thinks they cherish a simplistic utopian vision of progress, but he himself traces that to Christianity. He thinks they are fanatics willing to kill for their magical belief in human progress, but that would just mean they had something in common with a lot of theists.

There is good and bad to be found in our religious heritage, and our world is full of noble and ignoble acts by theists and atheists alike. For every admirable or offensive trait in an atheist, we can find one in a theist. For every Martin Luther King Jr., there's a Pat Robertson. But does theism or atheism, on the whole, tend to encourage more, or less, desirable behavior?

Hedges concludes his article by remarking that his new book is "a call to reject simplistic and utopian visions. It is a call to accept the severe limitations of being human. It is a call to face reality, a reality which in the coming decades is going to be bleak and difficult. Those who are blinded by utopian visions inevitably turn to force to make their impossible dreams and their noble ideals real. They believe the ends, no matter how barbaric, justify the means. Utopian ideologues, armed with the technology and mechanisms of industrial slaughter, have killed tens of millions of people over the last century. They ask us to inflict suffering and death in the name of virtue and truth."

No one could argue with any of that, if Hedges meant to apply it to theists and atheists alike. But he calls his book "I Don't Believe in Atheists," and he adds one more sentence to the end of the article: "The New Atheists, in the end, offer us a new version of an old and dangerous faith. It is one we have seen before. It is one we must fight."

This makes clear that what Hedges objects to is fanaticism, and that he knows it can be found in theists and atheists alike. But his marketing plan for this useful but less-than-groundbreaking insight is decidedly not headlines like "The Dangerous Fanaticism of a Few People Who Happen to Be White, Male, and Atheist." His whole brand is opposition to the supposed danger of atheism. So it comes as a disappointment to discover that Hedges doesn't even try to identify a connection between atheism and fanaticism. He describes a group of atheists who are fanatical about things that millions of theists are fanatical about too. He does not suggest that atheism in any way encourages fanaticism, or the belief that there has been moral improvement through human history, or any of the other notions he rejects. Hedges is convicting a handful of atheists of guilt by association. After all, the mere failure to believe in a particular cultural myth could hardly be a cause of their habits of thought.

Belief in theism, on the other hand, can have serious consequences. In fact, theism is unavoidably a simplistic and utopian vision. It may not result in adoption of any other simplistic visions, and it may not result in the use of force, but it does put one's mind in the habit of accepting nonsensical wishful thinking. Theism includes a "belief" that something called a god controls the world, and usually includes a "belief" that death is not real. Some of the most admirable people in the history of the world and living today have held these beliefs, and some of them have not. But these are beliefs that tend, as a rule, to encourage acceptance of the status quo, to discourage personal responsibility, and to put one in the habit of believing transparent falsehoods. That many people overcome these influences, with various degrees of success, does not make them less real.

Theism has a damaging influence on human thought and action, and the existence of different flavors of theism provides a justification for hatred and murder. If Iraqis were all Christians, millions of them would probably still be alive. The United States would probably not have done to Iraq what it has done over the past two decades. And the idea that Iraqis cannot govern themselves if left free to do so would be far more apparent to many more Americans. The entire "global war on terror" would collapse without Christianity and Islam.

I'm not agreeing with the millions of Muslims around the world who believe the primary motivation of U.S. crimes to be hatred of Islam. I think their religious identity blinds them to the tragic fact that the United States is attacking Islam because it is situated overtop of vast oil supplies. But it would be harder for the United States to attack the possessors of oil if they shared a religion or a lack thereof with Americans.

Of course, without theism, people would hate and kill others on the basis of race, class, ethnicity, and various other excuses. Atheism does not make any individual or population decent or good. Atheism doesn't make anyone think in any particular way. But theism, by its very nature, encourages obedience to authorities, and belief that such authorities should be trusted even if their ways are mysterious. The bizarre American reaction to 9-11 in which Rudi Giuliani and George W. Bush were so comically turned into figures of authority was facilitated by religious thought. If so many people were not in the habit of turning to a lord or savior in times of fear, Hedges and all those trying to talk some sense into them would have a much easier task.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. Theism is powerful, and includes potential for both genuinely good and
violently bad.

Theism has provided the impetus for violent assault but has also built children's hospitals.

I think non-theist people are as prone to believe in falsehoods as theists, and are subject to the same human range of emotions.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Except that
none of the good that is supposedly attributable to theism couldn't be achieved without it. The same is not true of rationality.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Gee..that sure makes me wonder who financed the book.....
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah nobody could genuinely disagree with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens
It must be a conspiracy.

Also this article belongs in the religion section.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Your reaction doesn't surprise me...
The way things have been so divisive around here, snapping to an instant snark has become de rigeur.

But IMHO your comment is terribly unfair. As an atheist, I'm happy to admit that I've heard Chris Hedges speak and debate on several occasions and there have been many times I agree with his insight and his perspective. On the other hand, if the original post is correct and fair, Chris Hedges latest book is basically an unfounded character assassination based simply on an ideological dislike. There is nothing inherently fanatical about an atheist disagreeing with a theist. The concept of atheism is no more fanatical than theism.

Unless Hedges demonstrates that Harris' and Hitchens' positions advocate that atheists take the kind of extreme actions we as a thinking and rational being would likely define as fanatical (like those fanatics on the theistic side - advocating for the restriction of civil rights, withholding basic needs from children or the sick, advocating for the persecution of those who don't share their views, etc.) then he is no better than those fanatics on his "side" of the issue.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Well that's why these sorts of articles belong in the religion section
I do think it's interesting that apparently speculating the Hedges funding might be suspicious isn't snarky, but making fun of the suggestion that Hedge's funding might be suspicious is snarky.

Bryant
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zazen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. everyone has implicit cosmology-hitchens compounds his lack of self-awareness with arrogance
"Theism by its very nature encourages obedience to authorities." Bullshit. Conflating fundamentalism with faith in a greater intelligence in the universe than humans is like conflating rape with the mysteries of erotic love. Does this "atheist" not have faith that the sun will rise?

Human conditioning is such that we develop through culture and early childhood experiences a set of expectations about the world, most of which are unarticulated and are as phenomenologically dependent on a blind faith in invisible powers as any self-conscious fundamentalist. And that unexamined conditioning always gives power to some perceived group of humans, even if it's idiosyncratic (like "people who ignore me and remind me of my mother." ) Contemplation of the vastness of the universe, through studying anthropology, astronomy, physics, or something like the Kabbala, Sutras, or New Testament, and experience of the relief that we are "not-God," is profoundly personally and politically liberating, because it carries the simultaneous recognition that no other human is God (or Goddess) either. It can unravel that conditioning and sustain the rawness of facing each day without it. Hence the strength of faith in civil disobedience--"liberation theology."

Apart from the profound irony inherent in proselytizing atheism, I think many of these self-avowed "atheists" don't comprehend 1) the immense power in conscious faith and 2) the banal silliness and potential evil which is just as inherent in going around shouting that we're the highest intelligence in the universe as it is in shouting that so-and-so Mullah or preacher or L. Ron Hubbard sci fi text should be the ultimate arbiter of our fate.

I'll take a bunch of Baptists rebuilding houses in our Raleigh projects over a pompous drunk like Hitchens any day.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'll take a pompous drunk like Hitchens...
over a bunch of gay hating Baptists any day.

Sexuality
We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.


http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/pssexuality.asp

Sid
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zazen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Guess we're talking about different Baptists.
And come to think of it, while I might take a drunk over those who are gay-hating Baptists, it wouldn't be Christopher Hitchens. He has enough hate to fill several churches.

from Raleigh, NC

from ENLARGING THE CIRCLE:
Pullen Memorial Baptist Church's Holy Union Process
by Patricia V. Long

"This eyewitness account of Pullen's experience was written by the woman who founded and led the Open Forum on Homosexuality and the Church, helped plan the congregational decision-making process, and served as the only openly gay member of the board of deacons during that time.

Mahan presented the request to the deacons in a four-page letter. They deliberated for a month. Deacons planned a process for congregational consideration of the gay couple's request. The issue was splashed across the newspapers, quoting the letter from deacons to congregation, even before some members were aware of it. The debate in the media continued for months in a barrage of letters to the editor. In a dozen intense small-group meetings the congregation listened to each other. Pullen members also heard each other's views at an unforgettable town meeting. At the congregational meeting, motions were finalized and the decision was made to vote by secret mail ballot. The passage of the main motion by 64% of the 531 secret ballots was announced after worship March 1. Media immediately transmitted the results by television, radio, and newspaper across the country.

The dramatic story of a Baptist congregation's decision to celebrate the life covenants of gay and lesbian couples began with a pastor's awareness of injustice. It continued with a personal question and a life-changing answer. The board of deacons supported a study of gay issues and faith at Pullen. Open Forum on Homosexuality and the Church became a close-knit community representing the diversity of the congregation. When he was asked to perform a holy union, Mahan Siler spent time defining his own position. The service was held two weeks later. Some people deeply appreciated our action. Others were angry and appalled. Most of our fellow Baptists were outraged. Pullen was expelled from the local Baptist association by a vote of 568 to 144. Fifty-six Baptist churches passed resolutions of condemnation or wrote strongly disapproving letters to Pullen. The state Baptist convention voted by 67% to amend its constitution to exclude Pullen and any other church that “manifests public approval” of homosexuality.

The vote of the Southern Baptist Convention to expel Pullen was overwhelming. The nation's largest protestant denomination changed its constitution to require that all member churches condemn homosexuality. But the firestorm of opposition to our decision was more than balanced by the life-transforming good news Pullen represented to countless others."



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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. And definitely not Hedges...
When They Came for the Homosexuals…
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070311_when_they_came_for_the_homosexuals/

For the Christian Right, Gay-Hating Is Just the Start
http://www.alternet.org/rights/49160/

His book, American Fascists, is top notch, and reveals a very sinister, albeit diligent, far right movement in this country that, despite how incredibly well funded and amassed, goes virtually undetected on the public radar.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Pullen definitely an exception.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. The sun rising doesn't depend on faith.
Faith is what you need to believe in something that isn't true.

--IMM
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent read. K&R. Thanks for posting.
Edited on Thu Mar-27-08 08:43 AM by SidDithers
Sid
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. good dissection of hedges
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. I liked this sentence best.
"Atheism does not make any individual or population decent or good."

Amen, baby.

Signed,

Iggo the Atheist.



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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. A few more incisive analyses of Chris Hedges' article

Chris Hedges, author of the much-praised “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning,” seems to have become unhinged.

He has a new book coming out with the ever-so-clever title “I Don’t Believe in Atheists,” for which he’s published an advance summary essay and interview at “click-thru our desperate attempts to get you to pay money for words on the internet” publication Salon.

And folks, it’s just terrible. The essay is a mess from start to finish, seemingly utterly impervious to absurdity of its arguments in the face of everything from logical consistency to actual positions of his targets.

Most egregious is the way Hedges can’t seem to make up his mind exactly what sins “New Atheist” targets are guilty of: at some points he assert that, for instance, Christopher Hitchens believes in nothing. But without any explanation, he ALSO makes the charge that “atheists” are starry-eyed utopians that believe in the power of human perfection so strongly that, who knows: maybe they’d kill for it, those crazy buggers. How can both possibly be true?

<snip>

More..
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/newfound-anti-atheist-chris-hedges-doesnt-believe-in-coherent-arguments/

Read the enitre article...Good one:
http://inamirrordimly.com/2008/03/13/chris-hedges-on-what-christians-and-atheists-have-in-common/

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/259239.htm

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Very interesting thoughts
I agree with most of this, but I do think that religion has done more good and less bad than you give it credit for.

It is true that religion has been used to justify a lot of terrible things, but I believe that if not for religion, some other reason for the atrocities could sure have been found. And I don't know how accurate it is to say that relgion encourages people to accept the status quo and adopt an authoritarian point of view. I think it's more true that religions attract those kind of people rather than that they create them. Without religion I believe that those same people would find some other reason to accept the status quo and be authoritarian.

On the other hand, religion has been at the forefront of some very liberal/progressive causes in this country, such as the anti-slavery movement. I do believe that religion deserves some credit for things like that.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Hedges-Hitchens debate is fatally mixed up...
Edited on Thu Mar-27-08 04:08 PM by JackRiddler
It astonishes me that both (each for their own reasons) accept the baseless association of neocon politics and specifically Muslim-bashing and support for the Iraq war with... atheism per se. Please. So Hedges postures as a Christian against war and Hitchens as an atheist for it, as though a position on the war logically follows from either theism or atheism.

I found it very frustrating to listen to their direct debate, in which the quick and vicious Hitchens made a complete clown of the slow-witted, preachy Hedges with regard to the God question, and then used this to piggyback his (logically unrelated) war support.

As for Harris, pretty much the same. Starts from a rigorous and logical expostulation of atheism, but soon devolves into "Clash of Civilizations" ideology counterposing a "secular" "scientific" West (which, to borrow from Gandhi, would be an excellent idea!) in a righteous, blinders-on defense against the barbaric, God-deluded terrorist Muslims. And occasionally he lets his inner Buddhist peak through, just to add to the ironies. Please.

Meanwhile, wasn't it God who ordered Bush to invade Iraq?
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Firespirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Okay, this is dishonest
Theism includes a "belief" that something called a god controls the world, and usually includes a "belief" that death is not real. Some of the most admirable people in the history of the world and living today have held these beliefs, and some of them have not. But these are beliefs that tend, as a rule, to encourage acceptance of the status quo, to discourage personal responsibility, and to put one in the habit of believing transparent falsehoods.


I can only assume that the author says this because of the way some religions use their ideas of Heaven, and "your life sucks but it'll be all right after you're dead" to keep people in bad situations. But the subjugation of the human race is condemned by every religion out there. We are to lift up the world. Whether specific PEOPLE use theism to keep people oppressed is not a factor in whether theism itself is valid.

And that aside, there are some religions that are very focused on getting OUT of the status quo. Buddhism is a good example of this -- enlightenment of the self. Christianity, ideally, also could be. Neopaganism is about finding one's own spiritual path and helping the earth.

I am tired of the debate being about atheism vs. theism. Religion CAN be used to better humanity, through charitable work and such, but it's not REQUIRED. As such, I think the REAL purpose of religious belief should be self-improvement. If you can be enlightened without gods, then great. If you need the supernatural, great. It is all about the individual, and what works best for each person.

If you must debate on whether atheism or theism is "true," then have fun with that. If the atheists are right, then no one will ever know for sure because they won't survive death. If the theists are right, everyone will know, for the opposite reason. It's that simple.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. Comparing apples and oranges
Unlike Christianity or other religions, atheism is only a very small slice of one’s worldview and not an overarching philosophy of life, the universe and everything. Trying to compare the two in that sense, though very common among lovers of theism like Hedges, is simply misguided. Many Christians believe that their lives should be wholly centered around God and his son Jesus Christ, and that everything they think and do should be in accordance with His divine Word, or at least with their interpretation of it (which can obviously vary between denominations/groups/sects and even within them to a lesser extent). Many adherents of other religions have similar convictions. But an atheistic worldview (I hesitate to even call it a philosophy, because there just isn't that much to it) says nothing about how you should live your life or treat other people, any more than preferring butter to margarine or being an advocate of vinyl records over CDs does, and it doesn't need to in order to justify itself.
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