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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 01:29 PM
Original message
FITNA!!!!!
The controversial movie by Dutch politician Geert Wilders!

it's no YouTube (but will appear soon enough)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Geert Wilders - hardly the poster boy for tolerance
Self-aggrandizing twerp
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. but don't you know that to be liberal you have to agree with Alessandra Mussolini?! :sarcasm:
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ok, I tried to watch it with an open mind, but I had to turn that shit off.
reminded me too much of the old propaganda movies. Not a word about the 95% of Muslims that DON'T follow the extremists. :mad:
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. This is THE BIG THING in Holland right now.
Here the tone of the Western European debate is set. Wilders may be an idiot, but he knows how to rouse people.

The fact our PM (Balkenende) has been crying wolf for months now hasn't helped. All of a sudden our freedom of speech was in danger, which led most of us to the following conclusion:
Muslim-hate is being installed by our government, using both sides of the aisle in an apparent conflict. But this way, The Cabinet can declare an emergency, cut down on freedom of expression, cancel the movie, fire up racial hatred, reserve more money for restrictive action.

If Holland goes, then most of Europe will follow, I'm afraid.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. While I agree with his basic argument
of freedom of speech, etc., I'm a little uneasy about an elected official singling out a particular group for what amounts to blatant propaganda. In the middle of the movie there's an animated bar graph that shows rising Muslim populations over the years, as if the *number* of Muslims is somehow an issue in and of itself. Also, despite the provocative nature of the movie, Wilders offers no solutions, ideas - just simply poking a hornets' nest to prove that he has the right to.

All fair enough I suppose, but the RWrs (Malkin's readers for example) are pretty telling in their comments - one states simply "loads the .45, and gets out the popcorn". Nice. Viewing whatever violence this movie begets as popcorn entertainment.
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You'd have to see the rising population in context
to a very common problem in Holland: space. Only some 15.000 sq miles for 16 million people. And a lot of it is water, too.

I wonder if there is going to be trouble tonight, in town (any town). I'll report back later!
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Fair enough
Though population would be the problem, no? In any case, I certainly appreciate the localized view on this - easy for us folks in NA to have an opinion. Little different when you're in the thick of it.

And yes, please check in later.
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Just on the news:
the Dutch Moroccan Organisation thinks Muslims will not (repeat, NOT) be offended by the movie. Nobody expects any riots.

The site is off-line agian, so excuses if the link doesn't work anymore.

Population has been a big problem for the past 20 years. Roads are clogged to death, public transport starts to fail, environmental problems are springing up like daffodils.
Still, Holland is probably one of the best countries to live. We only have the weather against us (which is basically the same as in England, but then without the floods).
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Liveleak servers are getting hammered
According to stats, the movie has been viewed 781718 time since its release what, a few hours ago.

Jeebus - I thought I was doing well when I got 1500 hits on a Youtube movie over a week.
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That's how big a thing it is.
over 7M views in a couple of hours time... Can you check how many views were for the Dutch version, compared to the English version?

As far as I know, Holland has 94% of the population connected to broadband internet.
That's an amazing 15 out of 16 ratio! We also have 18 million cell phones and 17 million bikes.

And 1.2 million problem-drinkers...
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. According to Liveleak
Edited on Thu Mar-27-08 03:37 PM by lefty_mcduff
the 'Netherlands' version is here and has had 1610098 views. According to a blog I was reading the English version is 'tamped down' and less provocative than the original.

Interesting note - Liveleak also has this message on their home page:

Welcome, and thank you for visiting LiveLeak.com. Due to an increase in traffic and targetted hacking attacks, we have had to disable certain features. We hope you enjoy all that we have available at this time and we further hope that you will visit us again to explore the full range of features and interactivity that LiveLeak has to offer

I imagine it's the traffic spike and hacker attacks due to the movie.
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I watched the Dutch
version but only part of it. It was too much for me to handle but what I did see, made me sick to my stomach.
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VeryGimpy Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. LOL - Was that it?
Was that what all the fuss was about?
A collection of confused ramblings and innuendo.
Wilders is obviously a moron - Who is his enemy? Islamists? Muslims? (There's a difference, you know - a very definite difference that you can look up in a dictionary).
He's all over the place. Mosques and burqas. The Quran and road side bombs. It's all the same to him.
If you disregard his hate for minarets and pretends that he says "radical islamists" every time, it's not even that offending.
IMO he's just displaying his pathetic rethorical skills and inability to put two sensible thoughts together.
He's a relic of the stupid ages. I pity him.
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I could not understand a word he said but
the visuals.............so very sad.
Sickening.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. ONLY 1.2 million problem drinkers? that's low!
but it's also a hell of a lot harder to tell here, since most people here drink that piss water called amstel (inside joke)

Some background:
Winders is the head of the party VVD, imagine the GOP, but boil out any kindness, and humanity. The VVD is just this side of the Nazi party right now. They have been the ones to push for harder immigration laws, and to make all us damned allochtonen's lives harder than they already are.

There is a nazi party here BTW, it's called 1 NL (one netherlands) and it's about as far that way as you can get. Kick out ALL the buiten (outside) land-ers. Holland for the hollanders! bah.

The problem is several fold. The quality of education here has been going down rather steadily for a long time. I'm sure the Dutchies on this board will disagree, but it's total crap here. STILL better than a lot of public education now a days back home, but that's not saying much.

part of it is the dutch are just plain lazy. No.. seriously! If you want work done, on time, that means hiring a foreigner from poland, or some other place, like turkey! The Turks are great assets to Dutch society, generally honest, hard workers, and overall decent people (in my experiences anyway).

The problem is that they are *gasp* Muslims! AND... they're not Europeans!!!!!!

In America we're all immigrants, except the Indians, and we damned near killed all of them! We have a very different view than "native landers" like the Euros here. The idea that "we're all from somewhere, so have a beer and lets talk", is just not here, at least not anymore.

In the last 10 years, maybe longer?, but the last 6 it's gotten REALLY bad, the Dutch have been leaning more and more reich. It used to be the CDA (christian democratic party) was a weak party for the religious middle grounders. They hate non-believers, and people who are different - so typically dutch. They were mostly voted for by mindless church goers, and were generally not a threat to the rest of us who like to use our brains.

But since 911 they have gotten progressively more and more power. bankey and his ilk have make things worse, less money for school, less money for social programs, MORE taxes, more costs, less government services, lets sell off EVERYTHING!!!! (the rails used to be state owned, as were teh buses, and the phone company).

In some instances this was good. When KPN went private telephone service VASTLY improved and got a hell of a lot cheaper (KPN is like ma bell) But the trains never improved, and keep getting more expensive, the buses don't run any more efficiently, and there are not FEWER lines of all kinda running.

Prices go up, service goes down.

It's been significantly better here, and I fear for my new country. I have already seen what Balkey and his ilk want to do... The American system is so far past broken, as far as infrastructure, only a corrupt, evil asshole would want to emulate it..... which is why Balkende is such a danger to us here.

We have our freedom of speech here .. actually better than in the states, we can swear AND have sex on TV here :p, but as has been posted.. for how much longer?

I'm from California, I don't LOVE it here, actually i don't really like it, but it's where my wife is. Where my job (now) is. This is my home, and like family, you don't always get to choose. I want the best for my new family, and I am afraid they are going to "independent minded" themselves into a hole they can never get out of.

I am relieved to know that gw is a joke, and his movie is seem for the steaming pile of ignorable crap it is. The amount of physical pain and violence he could have sparked scars the hell out of me, because it's unnessicary.
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Oi Comtec!
Good to see you back!

Thanks for your insights on Holland. You know what it's like when you're far away from home - you tend to develop your ideas:) (Too bad about your Amstel-view, though...)

You're right about all of it. Education is growing worse by day. Tolerance, our one time main export product, is dwindling. Outsourcing affects us as well.

Geert Wilders is a joke, but still he's in league with Balkie and friends. He could not have pulled this trick without help. We have our own conspiracies in Den Haag, unfortunately.

May I invite you to take a look at our new website www.venv-blog.nl
it's like the Dutch equivalent to DU!!! (well, not yet;))

And tonite I'm in Zwolle...
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BB1 Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. latest update: 1 out of 3 has seen the movie.
that's at least 5 million people. 1/3 of the country!
That would mean 100.000.000 us americans :)
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Who is
Malkin, please?
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-27-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Michelle Malkin -
Right wing harpy, pundit. Faux news chattering head from time to time. Used to sub for O'Reilly until she had a spat with Rivera about illegal immigration. Wrote a book defending the internment of Japanese during WWII. Particularly shrill part of the GOP noise machine.

Not going to link to her blog - just add .com to her full name.
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hifalutin Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thank you nt.
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Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
21. Poorly-made propaganda piece...
Wilders strikes me as being a simple attention whore.

And while I have no quarrel with Muslims that just live their lives and don't bother anyone, it's telling however when people who make works critical of Islam have to have police protection.

It isn't racist or horrible to be intolerant of backasswards, misogynist, homophobic, and undemocratic individuals and ideas. Certainly I rail against their Christian fundie brethren and I will fight them as well. Any man that tries to stuff me in a burka will be getting a nasty surprise.

Free speech means that someone somewhere will be taking the piss out of your religion. Either get used to it or move to a country where your precious beliefs are coddled.

I don't buy into the Muslim hysteria, but I'm not going to give the religion a special pass either.



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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It's been pulled from LiveLeak
From the website -

Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers.

This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised LiveLeak.com is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one.

Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture.

We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high.


Alas, looks like Wilders got what he wanted - threats of violence - and the RW nutbags can bleat "see, we told you so".
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