DU Education Census: Post-Secondary

[L. Coyote]

What is your degree in?

[Zynx]

1. You beat me to it! Drat!

:-)

[L. Coyote]

2. And you have not Rec'd YET! What'z up LOL

[L. Coyote]

67. Obviously, you had a good idea polling DU Education.

[Mike03]

3. BA in cinema/production/writing and a minor in fiction writing.

In other words, useless shit...

[Zynx]

4. You're probably a pretty creative guy. I'm a BA History and Economics.

I'm going on to pursue a Master of Public Affairs.

[TomInTib]

5. I went to The School of Hard Knocks.

Does that count?

Other than that, I have no formal schooling whatsoever.

[Hekate]

14. Knock-knock! Who's there? Archie. Archie who? ...

...Archie gettin' kinda tired of these polls? ;-)

What are they for, anyway?

Hekate

[cloudbase]

6. I are a engineer.

Started school back in the slide rule days.

[Ms. Toad]

20. I can still do multiplication and division

faster on my slide rule than my daughter can on her fancy calculator!

[Blue_In_AK]

30. My husband are a engineer, too.

A marine engineer, which I suppose is different? :shrug:

[cloudbase]

36. Different in practice.

I are a marine engineer, too. Retired now, but do a bit of consulting to keep the cobwebs from taking hold. I spent a fair bit of time in Valdez.

Is your husband with AMHS?

[Blue_In_AK]

37. He's MEBA and retired, also.

He spent most of his time going back and forth to Puerto Rico on cargo ships except in his early days when he was running supplies to Vietnam during the war. He's been so many places, and I've barely been out of the US.

(He was my high school sweetheart, but we didn't reconnect until several years after his retirement; otherwise, I might have gotten to take some trips, too.)

[cloudbase]

57. I'm also retired MEBA.

Congratulations on reconnecting. Enjoy your time together. Lord knows, we've all spent enough time away from our loved ones.

There are a few other MEBA retirees on DU. I don't know of any actives, though.

[Blue_In_AK]

60. Thank you, CloudBase

It has been bliss. :)

[Botany]

7. I kinda remember this place

[Berry Cool]

13. And some would say, if you really remember this place

you can't possibly have gone to school there.

Well, that's what some of them say. You know me, I was a goody two-shoes. :-)

[MaryCeleste]

8. A JD is no way the equivalent of a PhD or MD...its less than an EdD

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. I have NO IDEA how you came to that conclusion.

I have a Juris Doctor and it was 90 semester hours of hell. I made good grades in college and grew up around the legal business (my father was a lawyer) and it was still quite difficult.

I have known several people with Ed.D.'s and they have been complete idiots. I have never met anyone with an education degree that had any intelligence whatsoever.

It's quite common for education departments in universities to graduate classes where every single student has a straight-A average. Now how hard can that be? Sounds simpleminded to me.

:grr: :banghead: :grr: :banghead:

[L. Coyote]

24. Indeed. It is called a doctorate for a reason. A Masters is a mere 30 hours.

and a doctorate ADDS another 60 or so, depending on the institutions.

But, why argue. Aren't we all too educated for that? :rofl:

[MaryCeleste]

33. No thesis, no original contribution to knowledge. In all fairness, my standard is technical degrees

Not liberal arts ones.

No one calls a lawyer Doctor

[Gormy Cuss]

51. In all fairness,

medical doctors aren't require to make an original contribution to knowledge either yet we call them doctors.

[spooky3]

56. JD requires 3 years of full-time study. Most PhDs require at least 4 beyond the

*master's* level. So one is 3 years post-bachelor's degree; the other is 5 or 6 years on average post-bachelor's degree - in some fields, more than that.

I see post #49 spells this out more completely.

[MaryCeleste]

32. Law school is trade school...JDs do not requrie an original contribution to knowledge

An science masters is about the same as a JD. It more than just units.

I might grant you the Ed.D, but they to require a thesis.

Check out post #21, by someone who has both

No one calls a lawyer "Doctor"

[treestar]

38. Maybe so, but every day a lawyer makes an original contribution

Each case makes new law.

It is also hardest for being 100% human oriented. There's no certainty.

Educated people, in the sciences, have an exactness of attitude that shows them to be missing something. They don't "get" the uncertainty in life. They think they can whittle everything down to a certainty.

Law is hard because you have to understand there is no "right" answer. You have to get what the question is. Many a very educated person cannot understand that concept.

[MaryCeleste]

46. Science is about uncertainty...engineering less so

[Blue_In_AK]

28. WHAT???

I know a lot of lawyers who would disagree with you there.

[MaryCeleste]

35. So...

A JD is a three year program with a all encompassing final (the bar exam). It does not require original research or contributions to knowledge. Calling it a Doctorate is really disingenuous. Note that I have argued this with law school faculty. Most admitted it was tradition more than academic achievement or contribution.

No one calls a lawyer "doctor"

[treestar]

39. Every single question on that exam

Raises a new possibility.

The law is able to see the questions, raise the questions. Others just make the answers.

No one calls a lawyer doctor, but that is just custom. The degree is a doctorate, "Juris Doctor." The person is a doctor of the laws.

[MaryCeleste]

45. Like I said, its a historical anomaly, not even law professors condider it the equivalent of a Phd

Legal essays do not rise anywhere near a thesis, even a liberal arts one

[treestar]

47. Lawyers deal with new questions every day

And legal essays, in the law reviews, do raise new legal questions, and thus are original contributions to knowledge.

The lawyer has to answer the new question on his or her feet, not after a year of research. The lawyer has to figure out what that question is, and make an argument, in the library, in a matter of hours. There is no 3 year period to research and write the perfect answer. There is instead 100 such questions within one year. And only 30 days to brief them. A lawyer does 100 theses per year.

[MaryCeleste]

50. Clearly you have never done a disertation

And a brief does not qualify as one either.

JD is a doctorate in name only and is not recognized as a doctorate even by lawyers...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. If a JD is not recognized as a doctorate even by lawyers,

then, why were ALL my law professors called "Doctor Jones" or "Doctor Smith"??? Very few students called them "Professor".

They all had a Juris Doctor. Some of them had an LL.M. (Master of Laws) which requires a thesis, and some an LL.D. (Doctor of Laws), which I believe also requires some original research.

One of my professors wrote his own textbook on search and seizure. He was a double doctor. He had a J.D. and a Ph.D. in Criminal Justice and had worked with death row inmates on their appeals.

So how many pieces of paper do you think a professor needs? One is all it takes for a law professor to be called "Doctor". And it's usually the same degree the students are working on.

BTW, "doctor" is Latin for Teacher. Same root word, docere, to bring out, as docent.

The law school I went to produces excellent trial lawyers and judges. People who know what the law is in the real world. They have produced the best mock trial contestants in the United States, as well as the best moot court contestants (appellate argument) in the United States. Quite a few Mock Trial competitions have been completely shut down and eliminated, because my school won first place nationwide for several years in a row. And as far as the contests that are still in existence, the student teams continuously win them or come in in the top three slots.

There are approximately 187 ABA-approved law schools in the United States. Because of the vast number of law schools, the school I went to is not considered to be anywhere in the top rankings. However, it is still a difficult and rigorous school. It is not in the top rankings because of the sample size.

[MaryCeleste]

65. LLD is indeed a doctorate degree

Most of the law school profs where I have taught do not have one and are not called Doctor.

[SeattleGirl]

9. 4 year degree, and 2 quarters of grad classes.

My degree is in psychology.

[L. Coyote]

15. I took 33 graduate hours before applying for my B.A.

to retain scholarship benefits. It was unusual, but noone complained.

[Nevernose]

10. A JD is equilvalent to a Master's

Seconding Mary Celeste's earlier comment.

[Ms. Toad]

21. As one who has both,

I concur. A bit more work than my masters, but not the equivalent of a PhD.

[L. Coyote]

22. How many teachers took courses to maintain certificates and/or to increase pay?

[Ms. Toad]

25. Actually, I was responding to the comparison between

a JD and Master's degree (both of which I have).

I was also a teacher. I earned my Master's Degree while I was teaching. I was required to have some continuing education - I don't remember the details, except that if you stopped taking courses you could not renew your certificate. I decided that as long as I was taking courses, they might as well be meaningful so I worked towards Master of Science in Applied Math. At the time, once you had a Master's degree and a certain number of years teaching after earning the Master's degree you became eligible for a permanent certificate.

Although mine is grandfathered in, Ohio no longer has permanent certificates. All certified teachers in Ohio (other than those, like me, who already have permanent certificates) are currently required to take continuing education on a regular basis (the details vary based on when they first obtained a license).

When I was teaching, there were also pay increases - at 15 hours, Master's degree, and Masters + 15, I believe. I assume the structure is similar now.

So I guess the short answer, currently, is all of them.

[treestar]

40. Have you ever practiced law?

You have to deal with a new uncertainty every day.

[Ms. Toad]

49. I have been practicing law for 10 years.

In fact, the area of law in which I practice has more uncertainty than most, since I am a patent attorney. I not only have to deal with the changes in law, I have to be able to understand and describe technology which is, by its nature, brand new - in in fields in which I may never have had any formal training.

That doesn't change my opinion regarding the equivalence of the degrees. A JD is closer to a Master's degree than to a PhD or an MD. There's no shame in that, nor does it minimize the challenges many lawyers face in doing their jobs. It is just the reality of the kind of educational program one goes through to get the degree.

Both Master's and JD are relatively quick degrees (2-3 years) which one can obtain without additional education beyond college. A PhD either requires an additional degree as a prerequisite (Master's degree) or it takes considerably longer to complete (5-7 years) in which case it usually includes obtaining a master's degree as part of process of obtaining a PhD.

In addition, although there are some exceptions with respect to master's degrees, generally, neither a master's degree nor a JD require passing comps before being permitted to develop a Thesis and sit for the corresponding oral exam - with either or both of the comps or thesis potentially terminating the quest for the PhD. (Yes, most states require JDs to pass the bar exam in order to practice law - but that is a licensing issue. There are quite a few JDs who either never sit for the bar exam or never pass it - failure does not deny them their degree.)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

61. If you have to work for a living, a J.D. takes LONGER than three years.

I don't think that calling a JD the equivalent of a Master's because "it takes three years" is fair.

A J.D. is 90 semester hours. I worked full time at the courthouse in a very demanding job, and it took me 11 semesters, which was about five years, to finish 90 hours while working.

So I consider it a five year degree, because I was paying my own way through night school. Anyone who goes to graduate school at night while working is serious about it. In fact, looking back at my energy level, which has never been really high, I wonder how I got through my job and night school too.

When you study law, you have to look at a case and see TWO possible correct answers. People in science and engineering are taught to find one quantifiable correct answers. When they show up for jury duty, it drives them nuts that there are two possible correct answers. The professor is more interested in your logic, how you got to the answer you did, than he is in which answer.

A new case comes along with a new fact situation, and new law gets made to accommodate changing circumstances. That's why case law has changed statute law profoundly since the U.S. was founded. We've had judicial review (the ability of a court to rule differently, and change statute law) since 1803 and Marbury versus Madison.

People who holler about "judges who make law, not rule on it" and "strict constructionists" or now what is called "Unitary executive" are full of crap. They just don't like the changes in case law, like giving minorities (women, blacks, gays, handicapped people) rights that only propertied white males had before.

[Ms. Toad]

63. By that standard, an MS also takes longer

My MS took either 4 or 5 years to finish (I don't remember which year I started) when I did it part time. I was comparing full time to full time - and they are roughly equivalent. It was your choice to go through the program as a night student - that doesn't change the nature of educational program, jut how hard it was for you personally

I have three degrees, two in math and science (Math & Phyics bachelors) and a master's in Applied Math and a JD. I've been through both paths (master's and JD) and can compare them directly. My spouse is currently working on a PhD. You're not going to convince me that a JD is equivalent to a PhD.

What you do after you have the degree has nothing to do with what the degree is equivalent to. There are many people with no advanced degrees at all who perform jobs just as mentally challenging as attorneys because they are self-trained, or on the job trained. That doesn't make their degree (whatever it is) equivalent to a PhD. The question wasn't about occupations it was about degrees.

[Juche]

11. These numbers are weird

24% with a doctorate, another 18% with master degrees, at least 80% college graduates.

Either only graduates are responding, or they are overrepresented here.

For myself I have a BS in biochemistry, I have thought about a MS in cell biology but am going to wait a few years to decide on that.

[L. Coyote]

12. It's Friday night! Look who is not partying, the dudes who studied!

[Posteritatis]

48. All us grad students are here, hiding from our end-of-term madness. (nt)

[bicentennial_baby]

16. So far...

Associate's in International Studies, Senior year of my BA in Economics, then hopefully onto an MA in Economics as well. And so on and so forth. :)

[Catshrink]

17. Masters Degree -- and another one in progress

What am I? Crazy? Apparently.

[L. Coyote]

18. I'm impressed. I'm not surprised.

Even if there is a bias to respond only if you attended college.

[Orsino]

19. 4 graduate courses required of me during my teaching years.

B.S. Physics

[sergeiAK]

26. 5.5 years in college, and two BS degrees

Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering

4.5 years of hell, and a year spent in the Dilbert-land of my co-op job.

[Blue_In_AK]

27. BS (appropriately named) in psychology

from University of Houston (1968), with minors in sociology and English.

[NC_Nurse]

29. Diploma RN - 3 year program with LOTS of working in the hospital.

The older style of nursing school, almost like an apprenticeship.

[kineneb]

31. ABT (all but thesis) in Music History

specialty- medieval and Renaissance musical instruments

[Swamp Rat]

44. Hey there!

Wanna jam? :D

[kineneb]

52. sure

but I'm way out in the hinterlands of northern California... have a whole studio full of early instruments, but no one to jam with...

[Swamp Rat]

53. Pase el agua, ma Julieta, Dama, Pase el agua venite vous a moy...

Pase el agua, ma Julieta, Dama,
Pase el agua venite vous a moy.
Ju me'n anay en unvergel.
Ju me'n anay en unvergel.
Tres rosetas fui culler,
Ma Julioletta, Dama.
Pase el agua venite vous a moy.

:D

[kineneb]

55. maybe in the future

(got the reference and the joke)
One of my favorites, both on shawm and krumhorn (hehe).
got another job right now... caregiver for Hubby.

[Brigid]

34. BS in English.

Some would say it has no practical value. They may have something of a point, but I don't think I wasted my time. I can at least write a coherent English sentence, which is more than I can say for many people these days.

[Kip Humphrey]

41. 88% with 4 year degree or higher...We be smarty pants! How do you think Free Republic would compare?

[treestar]

42. They might have degrees, but in very left-brain, yes and no,

black and white sorts of discliplines. That is why they cannot get the issues and have to have an answer for everything.

[Zynx]

64. You'd be amazed at the mistakes people with college degrees can make.

I'm a senior at my university so I see it a lot.

[susankh4]

43. BSN Nursing, MS in Family Studies

[krabigirl]

54. BA in English Lit/minor in Journalism. Took some post-grad courses in Human Factors.

Never went as far as getting a MS, though.

[oldhippie]

58. BS Electrical Engineering, but .........

I went renegade during the decade of greed and picked up two MBAs in Management and Finance. Still have a foot in both camps (technical and business.)

[varkam]

59. We're some smart mofos!

I shudder to think what this same poll would look like over at freeperville. :scared:

BTW, I'm starting law school in the fall

[sandyd921]

66. Ph.D in education.

I'm in a specialized area within the education field.