A gay student murdered in a classroom...

[cynatnite]

OXNARD, Calif. - Larry King was a gay eighth-grader who used to come to school in makeup, high heels and earrings. And when the other boys made fun of him, he would boldly tease them right back by flirting with them.

That may have been what got him killed.

On Feb. 12, another student, Brandon McInerney, 14, shot him twice in the head at the back of the computer lab at their junior high school, police say.

The slaying of the 15-year-old boy has alarmed gay rights activists and led to demands that middle schools do more to educate youngsters about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

snip:

The shooting has galvanized Oxnard, a city of nearly 200,000 people about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles. Several vigils for King have been held, including a march that drew about 1,000 people to this strawberry-growing section of Ventura County.

Like the killings of some other gay students — such as Matthew Shepard in Wyoming, and Brandon Teena, the Nebraska transsexual whose story was the subject of the movie "Boys Don't Cry" — King's death has drawn national attention and outraged many gays.

Comic Ellen DeGeneres, who is a lesbian, said on her talk show Feb. 28: "Larry was not a second-class citizen. I'm not a second-class citizen. It is OK if you are gay."

Students at E.O. Green Junior High said the other kids used to taunt King, call him names and throw wet paper towels at him in the boys' restroom, and he would bravely fire back by flirting with them and chasing them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/gay_student_killed

[Noirceuil]

1. Since when is drag...

acceptable attire for middle school? Obviously no one should be murdered for it, but I would like to know what kind of parents and school district would allow that. Clearly, they must have known this kid would be abused for dressing like a girl.

[cynatnite]

4. What he was wearing was probably not a violation of the dress code...

Also, this kid fought back in a variety of ways. He knew what kind of backlash he would get from it, but was brave enough to continue to be himself.

He wasn't murdered for what he was wearing.

He was murdered because of another kid's inability to deal with him.

[Lex]

5. Transsexuals or transgenders beware:

You should just get used to being abused or killed based on your attire.


Apparently.

Conform or die, indeed.

[Noirceuil]

6. Given the nature...

of this site, I knew someone would say I thought the kid deserved to be murdered. So predictable and so idiotic!

[Guaranteed]

9. It is. And you were challenging that, as well.

But put yourself in the kid's shoes. Let's just say he was gay, and got teased for it, wearing boy's clothes.

What would you do?


Why do you think he did what he did?

[DBoon]

15. Because he would rather die on his feet

than live on his knees

He is a hero

[Guaranteed]

17. He is. He made his point. nt

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

19. Unfortunately, being a hero in most cases aslo requires being a martyr

[RedCappedBandit]

11. Idiotic is your first reply.

[demmiblue]

16. Given the nature...

of your constitution, why are you here?

[Noirceuil]

20. NEWS FLASH:

Every Democrat is not a far-left nut. There are moderates and centrists in the party who don't drink the Daily Kos Kool-Aid.

[Guaranteed]

But do you understand why he did what he did? nt

[Noirceuil]

25. I understand..

I was just curious to know why the school allowed it when the threat to the kid's safety is forseeable.

[Guaranteed]

27. Maybe they agreed with his approach. nt

[RedCappedBandit]

41. Speaking of curiosity..

I'm just curious to know why you seem to think that ignoring the problem is a more appropriate way of handling it than to address it through proper discipline and education.

[LostinVA]

84. In CA, thankfully, it's illegal to discriminate based on gender identity

No thanks to people like you.

[unapatriciated]

87. did you read the article?

It was not foreseeable in middle school. That is why the school district is looking into a tolerance program like they have at high school level. The question you should be asking is why the school allowed the continued harassment of this young man. If they had acknowledged the problem sooner and implemented a zero tolerance program regarding violence that includes hate crimes. Just maybe two young lives would not be ruined.

[Popol Vuh]

97. Maybe because the school

isn't your typical anal-retentive social engineering institution. Maybe they believe it is important to remember that this is still America.

"Far-left nut"? Yeah we're aware that the Democrat party has some far-right nuts. Who else do you think votes for candidates like Lieberman and Reagan?


:shrug:

[donheld]

131. I can guarantee you that no matter what the kid wore

he'd have still received more abuse than any kid should have to face.
I've been there personally. I know of what I speak.

[demmiblue]

31. Hmm...

I don't know quite how to reply to that one! There are some things that transcend the differences within our party. This is one of them... a boy is dead. Who the hell cares what he was dressed like. It simply doesn't matter.

P.S. You are on Democratic Underground, not Daily Kos!

Edit: grammar

[LostinVA]

83. You don't have to be a far-left nut to not be transphobic

[Quantess]

119. True. I'm not a "far-left nut" and I'm not transphobic.

At least, I don't consider myself to be on the "far-left".

I suppose living in San Francisco for 8 years helped me realize what I already knew, that a person's sexual orientation is a deeply ingrained part of one's personality and identity, and to just accept that. If for some reason you can't accept someone else's sexual identity, just live and let live. Don't judge someone for being true to their nature.

Anyway, wasn't this kid a cross-dresser and not a full trans-sexual?

[LostinVA]

135. We don't really know what the kid was

He IDed as gay, but wore women's clothing. So there were definitely some trans issues going on. It's pretty much a moot point, though. Regardless of his identity, the school should have protected him.

[zanne]

143. So what are you moderate or centrist about?

It's impossible to be "moderate" or "centrist" on every issue. Most people who call themselves moderates don't act that way. They're liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Obviously, you're conservative when it comes to GLBT issues.

[Lex]

29. Your post blames the kid for his attire being responsible

for his death.

Period.

[Noirceuil]

30. Am I the only one...

who remembers what high school is like? High school is not an open-minded, liberal DU Message board, it is a harsh vicious place where you will be bullied and abused for wearing drag to school. I'm not saying the kid deserved it, but the disruption his attire would create is predictable and entirely foreseeable. For the kid’s safety, the school should not have allowed it. Schools impose dress codes all the time for exactly this reason. No doubt, the principal would have been attacked here as "homophobic" and "anti-gay", but it would have been the right thing to do.

[hulklogan]

32. I have an idea, maybe schools should actually put restrictions on the

perpetrators of these vicious crimes rather than the victims.

Schools don't enforce dress codes to take the motivation for bullying away. They more often enforce dress codes to stop bullying, like the school that banned the "Be happy not gay" shirt, or to prevent kids from wearing gang or drug messages.

Straight people never want to blame themselves for anti-gay violence because it would mean admitting that the militant straights actually aren't perfect, accepting, liberal people.

To me, it sounds like blaming a woman who was sexually assaulted for wearing the wrong clothes.

[Quantess]

126. Do you have a sincere, serious argument? Nope. ..zzzzzzzzzz....

:boring:

[JerseygirlCT]

172. I thought the post was quite well argued.

Especially the point about blaming a rape victim because of her clothing.

[Lex]

35. The school should "not have allowed it" or the school should have educated

the rest of the kids about bullying, homophobia, tolerance?

We had a kid in our class with some "differences" (actually it was a Downs Syndrome kid) and the teachers, principals, etc. all made a concerted effort to educate us about bullying, tolerance, acceptance, and about Downs itself. It was handled well and it wasn't a big deal.

The school could've just turned a blind eye to the situation as well, or maybe those who are different should just "not be allowed."

[Guaranteed]

38. Agreed. You don't force the person in the right to change.

You force those in the wrong to change, in the face of the person who is right.

[RedCappedBandit]

43. You must be one of them far left nuts!

Obviously the only way to handle our differences is to outlaw them.

:sarcasm:

[Noirceuil]

46. My English professor...

once told the class that if you have to explicitly tell your audience that you are being sarcastic, than you haven't succeeded at using sarcasm as a literary device. That course cost me $2500, but as a courtesy, I offer you the tip for free.

[RedCappedBandit]

49. Thank the FSM for the sarcasm tag ;)

[roughsatori]

58. For that price he should have taught you how to write a grammatically correct declarative sentence.

You deserve a refund from your “professor,” and you are overcharging for that tip.

[Vickers]

123. You should take that course one more time.

:thumbsup:

[Occulus]

148. Wow. Looks like you really got your money's worth.

:sarcasm:

:D

[RedCappedBandit]

42. Funny, I remember high school too

and when I went there, people weren't shot because they dressed differently.


Maybe we should outlaw provocative clothing to prevent women from being sexually assaulted next. What do you think, Mr. Centrist?

[LostinVA]

85. For the kid's emotional safety, it's important for schools to allow it

The school also has a responsibility for his safety from other students. Perhaps, punishment and education would help.

[gollygee]

99. They should have been able to predict that the student would get shot?

There was a M to F transgendered student in my high school in the 80s who never got shot. It never occurred to me she might get shot. I don't think it occurred to anyone she might get shot. How on earth is that foreseeable?

This is along the lines of asking what a rape victim was wearing and blaming the victim for the rape.

Very sad. :(

[texshelters]

104. I remember

However, I went to a school where being gay wasn't a huge deal. They just wanted to get through.

I am ever grateful I went to school in Ann Arbor, Mi...

Tex Shelters

[selador]

106. schools

i have to agree with you that high school kids will pick on (generally speaking) anybody that is different.

with that in mind, there is a conflict here and i am not sure which side i come down on

on the one hand, i think that in a PUBLIC school, a kid should be able to wear any attire that is appropriate for another kid to wear, regardless of gender (or race)

iow, if a girl is allowed to wear a dress to school, then a boy should be allowed the same "right".

i guess i am a little utopian in this respect, but i think that having a different dress code based on gender is problematic.

otoh, public schools (up through high school) have an in loco parentis role and their PRIMARY role is to ensure a safe learning environment, and nondisruptive one for ALL students.

so, i can see arguments on both sides.

fwiw, i work in law enforcement. women can (if they want to) have much longer hair than men as long as they pull it back off their face (ponytail) .

is that "fair"? no, it isn't either. should a public agency like police or fire be able to allow women longer hair than men? under the same above principles, one would say no.

the reality is that we do discriminate on account of gender. we also don't allow boys to play on girls' only sports teams (because the girls would be at significant competitive disadvantage)

these are interesting questions.

i don't think there is an easy answer.

otoh, assuming this kid was killed on account of his expression of gender identity, that is a truly heinous hate crime.

it's heinous no matter WHY he was killed, of course, anyway

[Guaranteed]

7. I think the kid probably knew the reaction he would get from people.

....He was just that brave.

He was CHALLENGING them to be better people.

[tomreedtoon]

24. I don't think he knew the reaction. He was a teen.

I'm sorry. This is a terrible tragedy. But the kid was a teenager. And as much as I remember sharply how bad it FEELS to be a teenager, I also remember how DUMB I was as a teenager, and how dumb all the others were.

I never found a way to stop bullies. Nobody I knew ever did, short of the drastic solution of a knife fight in front of the school - which, typically, the teachers, administrators AND teens didn't know how to handle. (Curiously, it was a foreign exchange student from Mexico City, where this kind of stuff is common, who dared to step in and stop the fight. He didn't ever say that Americans were stupid and cowardly. He didn't have to.)

Maybe the gay kid thought that playing the mincing gay stereotype for comic effect, and putting on these bullies, was an effective way of fighting back. It isn't. That only works in TV sitcoms where everything is fake. It may have made him feel like he was doing something effective against bullying, but there IS no effective way to end bullying.

The only thing you can do against bullying and prejudice when you're a teen is to keep your head down, accept the suffering, and get through the hell that is high school so you can graduate to more tolerant environments.

[Guaranteed]

26. I disagree. You can rail against it, provoke it, make it come to a head,

martyr yourself and teach people something.

[tomreedtoon]

68. And your italics shows where you, too, went off the track.

You said, "...martyr yourself and teach people something.

Like another poster, you completely misunderstand the nature of youth and schools. Schools have never involved anything about teaching. They are about hazing, violence and crushing the spirit. In what nation, and on what planet, and in what dimension did you attend school? 'Cause it sure ain't around here.

[SarahB]

111. Wow. It sounds like you had a bad experience and are projecting.

I was bullied in school, too, but my high school was no where near the hellish place you describe. I TEACH at a middle school/high school now, and I can assure you that teaching most certainly DOES go on there.

I'm sorry that you had a tough time, but you make a mistake if you assume that everyone's experience has to be the same.

On edit: this is Finnfan, accidentally posting on his wife's account.

[tomreedtoon]

116. So what is past life events but learning?

Or am I supposed to discard all the murderous events that I witnessed in school and pretend that they aren't happening to someone else, right now, this very minute? You don't just throw a doily over what you've learned and pretend that everything is hunky-dorey now.

Heck, although I was abused and nearly was killed in high school, kids dying in the hallways is pretty common today. I wonder, dear teacher, which one of us is denying reality?

[Quantess]

122. No. Think back to when you were 14 or 16.

You are who you are, you know it inside youself, and there's no hiding it!

"martyr yourself and teach people something" are afterthoughts. Those are the lessons learned at age 25 or older, depending on how old you were when you first asserted your individuality.

[hulklogan]

28. I'm sorry, but that is just as much of a "blame the victim" argument

as any of the other misguided posts in this thread.

Schools should be a place where all of our children can go to learn without the fear of being shot in the head for wearing makeup. I do blame the school and the murderer's parents for allowing that bully murderer to bring a gun into a classroom and shoot another student in the face in front of 20+ other kids.

Lawrence King's murder was in no way his fault. He stood up to the bullies as best he could. He should not be blamed because he didn't keep his head down. He should be martyred because he stood up for himself and didn't let the anti-gay bigot bullies torment him into submission or suicide like they've done to so many other GLBT kids.

[tomreedtoon]

66. You blew it in your second paragraph.

You said, "Schools should be a place where all of our children can go to learn without the fear of being shot in the head for wearing makeup."

Obviously you haven't had much touch with reality, schools or the nature of teenagers. High school, simply put, is hell, not created by Satan but by teachers and other students. Until you understand this essential fact, you have no hope of doing anything for anybody in school.

[hulklogan]

74. Bullshit, I work with teenagers every day in my job.

I went to a high school that was not hell, because we had teachers and administrators who weren't afraid to stand up for the bullied and they worked to create an environment that was at least "do your own thing" if it wasn't entirely tolerant.

I'm sorry you had such a hard time in high school, but just because something is a problem doesn't mean we should accept it.

[Zuiderelle]

187. High school may be hell, but most kids are not murdered there.

And it "SHOULD" most definitely be a safe place where they "shouldn't" have to fear being killed for nothing.

Obviously, you don't understand the word "should."

[krispos42]

112. The school didn't "let" the killer bring the gun on the campus

In almost all cases, anybody except police officers on school grounds with a gun is some sort of major felony.

Unless by "let", you mean that they don't have the same security at the school as they do at an airport.

No, the problem was this little murderer decided to kill. Something about this poor gay student bothered the kid so much that he was driven to murder.

It would not surprise me at all that the kid's parents were homophobic, and their hatred was adopted in it's raw form by their son. Or that the kid's parents, probably the father, always talked about how this person or that should be killed.

The killer's parents might well be responsible for the murder, too. IIRC, it was their handgun that the kid brought to school, so the question must now be asked "how did the kid get the gun?"

[hulklogan]

117. I don't think you read my entire post.

I said I blame the school and the parents for allowing the murderer to bring the gun into the classroom AND blow half of Lawrence King's face off in front of 20+ other students.

There has to be some blame assigned in this situation, and it lies first with the murderer, then with the murderer's parents, then with the school for not recognizing a potentially dangerous situation that they had plenty of advance warning about.

[krispos42]

128. So you did

I must have skimmed over that part. Apologies.

I don't know how much blame the school holds. Despite all the publicity, hysteria, and "moral panic", school shootings are in fact very rare occurances. Doubtless the school was worried about a gang beat-down, a "hate crime". But this?

Unless there was more solid evidence, like what the Columbine killers did, or that guy that shot up that VoTech school in Canada last year, there may simply have been no warning signs to act upon. Like the NIU shooter.

[hulklogan]

141. Lawrence King was bullied on a daily basis, and there was a prior confrontation

between the murderer and the victim. How much more warning did they need before they realized that maybe these two should have been separated, at least?

[krispos42]

155. You are correct

But unfortunately the article does not specify what actions were taken by the school. It may well have been that since King seemed to have the problem in hand and was not intimidated by the other boys, they decided further action was unneccessary.

[Luminous Animal]

125. Que?

Mincing gay stereotype? Hello girlfriend. What you characterize as a stereotype is a liberating way of life for many gay boys. They come in all colors, shapes, and sizes. Including the outrageous and fabulous.

[Lex]

167. Well, no shit.

You don't say.

[TheWatcher]

45. And whoever chooses to try and kill me, because I won't conform....

I hope they have gotten their house in order.

Because at the very least I will take them with me.

[gulliver]

137. No, but if you're surrounded by Hottentots, you don't let your kid...

...coat himself in barbecue sauce.

Take care of the kid first. Then worry about society.

[mitchtv]

8. Sounds like "blame the victim'

The closet is not the place to live your life. The school is much more responsible, than the victim. Disgusting attitude. He lived in a group home.

[Nevernose]

22. The school is responsible for some kid's homophobic psychosis?

Your (hypothetical) kid spends 6 hours a day in school 180 days a year. Where is your hypothetical kid the other 87.5% of the time?

Among his family, and among society. If you want culprits for what he does wrong, look there.

[Guaranteed]

23. I agree. This is the job of PARENTS- to teach their children right from wrong.

And, more generally, society.

This is our culture's failure.

[mitchtv]

33. see my post #3

plus he lived in a group home.and the admins admitted to there being "some teasing" .So that's what they call it, teasing? sounds like the school administration had their heads up their asses. In Calif they are mandated to provide a safe learning environment.

[mitchtv]

39. you misunderstand

>The school is much more responsible, than the victim. <
Certainly the district is not more responsible than the murderer

[Sabriel]

12. He/she deserved it because of what she/he said/did/thought/wore.

Go away and take your talking point with you, please.

[Guaranteed]

14. That's not what he said. nt

[Occulus]

48. That's what he meant.

And lest you accuse me of not knowing what he meant, my parents were exactly like that. I grew up living under that terrible attitude.

"If you insist on being different from everyone else, you should expect to get teased."

"Clearly, they must have known this kid would be abused for dressing like a girl."

Show me the difference between those two statements. I dare you.

[Guaranteed]

50. I think everyone DID know.

EVERYONE must have known that he would get a strong reaction doing what he was doing- King, King's parents, the school, the other students, the teachers, etc. They may not have imagined that the reaction would be murder, but clearly he was confronting those who were depriving him of his civil rights.

That doesn't mean that what he did was wrong, or that it was "his fault." He had a right to confront those people, to make an even bigger issue of what was probably happening to him even when he was dressing like everyone else.

Just admitting that what would happen was obvious does not place the blame on him. Inciting such reaction or not, he was right to begin with, and it's the fault of the idiots who raise their children to think that killing someone who is different is OK that he is dead.

[hulklogan]

18. So the parents and the school district are at fault for letting the boy be himself?

Why don't they get the blame for allowing a murderer in a classroom?

Thank you, straight person, for your "conform or die" message. :puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. Since when is worrying about what a kid is dressed in

more serious then why another has a gun in school?

[Cabcere]

102. Seriously.

When my little brother was in fourth or fifth grade, some kid pulled a hunting knife on one of his friends in class one day, and probably would've seriously injured him if the kid hadn't known karate and had lightning-fast reflexes. The boy who brought the knife and attempted to stab my brother's friend was suspended for just two days. TWO DAYS for an attempted assault, and my brother knew other kids who were suspended for three to five days just for talking back to a teacher, or something comparatively minor. :wtf: I don't know what is wrong with this country, but IMO it's pretty ridiculous when kids bringing weapons to school and hurting, killing, or trying to hurt or kill other kids takes a back seat to relatively minor nonconformist behavior. :(

[LeftyMom]

47. One of the kids at my high school was in transition- she'd had hormones and top surgery

but was waiting to turn 18 to get her bottom surgery done (her parents were supportive.) Nobody ever abused her- if any guy had thought about it half the girls in school would have beat their ass, she was enormously popular. And I didn't grow up someplace enormously enlightened, and that was more than ten years ago.

Don't excuse homophobic violence by making it sound inevitable and blaming the victim for risking it. It's not inevitable. Violence is a choice people make, not something they do automatically. The choice lies with those who choose bigotry or not, not the people whose only choice is to be themselves or die inside, which is no choice at all.

[Guaranteed]

51. Great. Post. nt

[Lex]

52. yes, it was (nt)

[JackBeck]

55. Best post in this thread.

Jon and I have been talking about the post you're responding to for the last hour, staring at it in horror. We've talked about how the country "isn't there yet", but also that the post was arrogant and uninformed. Just because the majority "isn't there" doesn't mean that the individual shouldn't be.

And then we read your post. Such a breathe of fresh air. You never fail to inspire so many of us with your acceptance and understanding of someone else's life experiences.

You rock, girlfriend.

[LeftyMom]

56. Thanks!

If you guys ever get out on this coast, LMK, 'cause I owe you drinks and a tour. And I'd love to meet the better half. :)

[JackBeck]

57. He's become an over the shoulder poster.

Moreso, as of late, because he's even over seeing the BS posted around here.

We'll take you up on that offer for sure. It's nice to know that I have some West Coast family that extends beyond Jon's circle.

BullGoose, Lex, RedCapp and yourself offered wonderful commentary in this thread. To all, keep up the great work.

[Maven]

64. Awesome post.

:loveya:

[JackBeck]

67. Another of my favorites.

:pals:

[roughsatori]

77. Amazing post LeftyMom Thanks!!! NT

[JackBeck]

63. Not drag.

And by using your logic, when was drag forbidden in middle school?

Your post is disgusting on so many levels. Classic blame the victim for the violence inflicted on them.

I hope you feel the amount of shame you should be feeling after reading all the responses to your horrible post.

[Bluebear]

69. That's the first thing that came to your mind when reading this? How sad for you.

[LostinVA]

82. The kind that doesn't think children should be abused by forcing them to be someone they're not

I hope you never have a gender-variant child.

Do you think gay kids should just stay in the closet, as well?

[LWolf]

94. Since there is no dress code

that segregates genders.

The article specifically states that he was within the school dress code.

[Raster]

101. So when are jackboots and spiked dog collars acceptable attire for middle school?

Or for that matter street walker ensembles complete with come-fuck-me pumps and black lace bras and ultra lo-cut jeans so tight you can count every stitch in the vicki's secret junior butt floss thong?

What kind of parents allow 3/4s of kids to dress the way they do? Acceptable? One persons acceptable is another's cabaret, and none is deserving of death.

[Bluebear]

115. 'One persons acceptable is another's cabaret, and none is deserving of death.'

Profound and true. Thank you.

[LanternWaste]

103. Sees to me that if young ladies can wear blue jeans

Sees to me that if young ladies can wear blue jeans (a "male" piece of clothing for many years), then a young man can just as validly wear a dress. Un;pess of course you believe that a double standard should be in place...


If not, what is the precise and relevant moral or technical difference?

[Guaranteed]

2. Unbelievable.

Fucking unbelievable.

Why does shit like this happen? Why are people unable to cope with people who are different?

Alright, so he came to school dressed like a girl. Maybe that was how he felt right, or, for the sake of argument, maybe he just wanted attention. Maybe both. Doesn't matter- either way, people are supposed to just treat him like any other person. THAT is what people don't understand.

People are not taught the value of people by virtue of being such in this country, and this is the consequence.

[mitchtv]

3. And one of the administrators admitted on tv

That they had had some problems with "teasing".

[lonestarnot]

10. This is just fucking sad on so many levels.

:cry:

[Guaranteed]

13. Truly. nt

[man4allcats]

34. This is so sad.

When I was that age many years ago, if you were in some way different as I was (I was perceived as being intellectually superior - these days I wonder why!) you might get bullied or at worst get your ass whipped. Today if you're different, especially sexually, you get murdered. I have to say I have little if any compassion for minors who commit these types of offenses. I really don't care how they were brought up. If you do the crime, you do the time.

[Guaranteed]

37. It's part of our country's growing pains, I think.

Since the 60's people have learned that you have to stand up for your civil rights, and when the ignorant are challenged they often have a hard time adjusting their minds. Look at what happened to the Kennedy brothers, MLK, Gandhi, etc.

They're all martyrs, both the big names and the small ones. And this is progress.

[cynatnite]

40. Are you saying that the 15 yr. old kid should be treated as an adult? n/t

[man4allcats]

44. I'm saying that if I were on the jury

I would have no problem convicting the 14-year-old who did the killing of 1st degree murder. Granted, I might well be overruled by other jurors, and that's okay. Still, I personally have no tolerance for this or other kinds of heinous bullshit. It's the way I feel.

[cynatnite]

54. I'm not saying we should be tolerant of this sort of crime...

I can't see treating the kid who did the killing as an adult. I've never understood how it could be applied to kids.

[man4allcats]

62. Understood. Still, in my view

he was old enough to pull the trigger - twice. And as it happens, according to the Jury Summons I have in my hand, I am on the jury next Thursday, April 3rd - not in this particular case to be sure, but whatever the matter at hand, I will be taking my no nonsense views with me.

[cynatnite]

72. My 9 year old is old enough to pull the trigger...

It doesn't mean that him or any other minor are able to comprehend the act. That's why they're considered minors and aren't allowed to vote, drive, drink, go to war and so on. We should not be treating these kids as adults when they commit these crimes...that's because they aren't.

I hope your no-nonsense views have some common sense and an open mind as well when you're sitting in judgment of a human being.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hippo_Tron]

113. I think only people with adult rights should be tried as adults

But I think he should get at least 25 years in prison.

[Ichingcarpenter]

36. I am tired of the hate

that religions promote in the name of their gods

You don't get this shit from Buddhists and agnostics.

[Echo In Light]

76. Remember, misogyny is the cornerstone of homophobia

[roughsatori]

98. Which is why Feminist & GLBT Groups must work together.

Thank you for your post.

[Echo In Light]

138. "Sound bite" culture makes it tough for many to connect the dots on this volatile issue

Sexism and misogyny remain omnipresent within this 'modern' society, often under the guise of gender propaganda, corporate propaganda, and the euphemistic language which masks it.

[Bluenorthwest]

190. With you on that one

And the phrase is so very well turned.

[Thelma Harper]

53. So sad.

[goodgd_yall]

59. This was a terrible loss

I'm glad to see it's getting some press now, but this happened in early February. It should have and should be getting more attention. But that's the state of things in homophobic American.

[roughsatori]

60. Thank you for posting this article and link.

I have followed this story since 2/12/08. I am posting to thank you and to give your post a kick. I am too angry to argue over the murder of Larry King.

Ellen DeGeneres earned back much respect when she said, on her nationally televised talk-show, "Larry was not a second-class citizen. I'm not a second-class citizen. It is OK if you are gay."

[EFerrari]

61. . . .

:cry:

[roughsatori]

65. KICK NT

[orleans]

70. i'm guessing this is why it is back in the news again:

"A 2005 survey by the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network found that more than 64 percent of gay and lesbian students report verbal, sexual or physical harassment at school, and 29 percent said they missed at least a day of school in the previous month out of fear for their safety. The group is holding its annual "Day of Silence" in memory of King on April 25.

[timtom]

71. Did no one at that school

see this coming?

With the history of teasing and abuse, did anyone there see this as a possible outcome?

Was there anything in the behavior of McInerney that would raise suspicions?

[Echo In Light]

75. The kid showed greater courage than the dim-bulb haters who deemed him inferior for lacking machismo

Sad. I can't imagine being the parent of a child who has to endure such misery over the petty ignorance and prejudice of others.

[Elspeth]

78. How did Brandon McInerney get a GUN into the computer lab?

I thought zero tolerance was the norm in schools now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. Poor kid :^( Poor family. Unreal how much hate there is in the world

[Wizard777]

80. The Irony.

Once he's been convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in jail. His only option for sex will be with other men. So if he wasn't gay before the shooting. For all intents and purposes. He is now.

[hulklogan]

81. Prison sex does not make people gay.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with physical sex acts.

[LostinVA]

89. Prison rape doesn't make people gay -- people are BORN gay

How fucking ignorant.

In the old days, making comments like that would have had you TS'd by 25 posts.

[BlooInBloo]

121. Doesn't matter if ppl are born gay, turn gay, or some combo. There's nothing wrong with it.

[Toasterlad]

147. Yes, It Does Matter.

Because if ignorant people are allowed to believe that it's a choice, they will always be able to convince other ignorant people that it's a BAD choice. And that stops me from getting my rights.

[BlooInBloo]

151. Doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. There's nothing WRONG with it.

[Wizard777]

164. Nobody has said that there was.

[BlooInBloo]

175. Pretending that it matters in the first place whether or not it's a choice implicitly...

... accepts the premise that there's something wrong with it. That's why the feeble-minded are so strong on "born that way" - because of it's exculpatory power.

The only reason any anyone is interested in the question of born-that-way-or-chose-that-way is against the background assumption that there's something wrong with being gay. If you don't accept that background assumption, the question loses all interest.

[Wizard777]

181. I know what you mean. Personally I don't care if it is choice or not.

We also protect choices. Like a persons religion. Your not born Catholic. Nothing says you have to be Jewish. It's not like being black. No if's and's or but's about it. You are born black. Personally I think homosexuality is like blinking. Semi-involuntary. For the most part blinking is an involuntary action that you do without thinking about. But at times it can be a voluntary action done with cognition. I don't think homosexuality is an either or situation. Like blinking it can be both.

[Toasterlad]

169. Is That The Best You Can Do?

Sorry the reality doesn't fit with your idea of what a do-gooding liberal is supposed to believe. But if you really want to help the gays out, do us a favor and stop trying to help. You're bad at it. And we don't need help from people who won't listen to the way things really are.

[BlooInBloo]

176. Shush. Go play with your legos.

[Toasterlad]

179. Good Idea. I'll Try and Build You Some Real Dialogue.

[Wizard777]

162. Who is "allowing" you to believe that?

If your rights are dependant upon me being unable to form my own beliefs. Your not having rights has nothing to do with you being gay. It has everything to do with being an over bearing control freak. In "allowing people to believe" your not seeking equal rights. Your seeking to engage in mind control in a society founded upon free thinking. No wonder your having an uphill battle all the way. Free people naturally reject mind control.

[Toasterlad]

168. Wrong.

My not having rights has everything to do with me being gay. If I were straight, I would have rights that I do not have now. And the reason gay people don't have rights is because narrow-minded assholes are able to argue that I chose to be this way, and could have rights if I STOPPED being this way.

Was my post above too subtle for you? I hope this clears things up.

[Wizard777]

174. Then you need to educate. There is a thin line between education and mind control.

When you don't allow people to believe (even if it is wrong in your opinion.)You have crossed that line and are engaging in mind control. That's never a good thing. Education is the only way to effectively change beliefs. The only things that people are required or allowed to believe are usually patently false. Like the world being flat. The sun revolving around the earth. Otherwise you could educate people to the reality of the world being a sphere and the earth revolving around the sun.

[Toasterlad]

177. Please Don't Get Hung Up on the Word "Allow".

I only meant that if religious nut-jobs and other assorted assholes are able to make the argument that homosexuality is a choice, and convince others that that's the case, that there will never be equality for gay people.

I "educate" every day, it seems, but I still constantly run into seemingly intelligent people who believe that sexuality is a wardrobe that can be changed whenever the mood strikes. This concept is not the root cause of homophobia, but it IS the root argument for denying our rights. I don't care if straight people find gays icky or not. I just want to be able to marry the person I love.

[Wizard777]

180. But I did. Especially when you attach allow to something inately personal as beliefs.

There are just some things in life that should not be regulated by others. Like your beliefs, consensual sex, and who you marry. These things are just too personal to be regulated by others. When you say allow. You are implying that you have a right to regulate. But I understand your point entirely. I know where you are comming from and are trying to get too. It really revolves aeound what value we place on individuality. Your beliefs are a big part of your individuality. Right for you is not always right for me and vice versa. Individuality is where we both get to have rights that are good for each of us.

[Zuiderelle]

100. That's one of the most insulting and uninformed posts I've ever read here.

[Wizard777]

107. It's also the cold hard truth. Like it or not. It's reality.

Btw, Homosexual means same sex. I don't know of any Co-ed prisons. I have a hard time adopting positions that require words to lose all meaning.

[joshcryer]

110. I can't believe how people conflated what you said.

You said "for all intents." :shrug:

The guy is going to be in a bad state when they're done with him.

[baby_mouse]

132. Meaningless.

No, not even gay "for all intents."

[Toasterlad]

114. Being Raped By a Man Doesn't Make You a Homosexual, Clown.

It makes you a rape victim.

[hulklogan]

118. Straight people don't understand this fact.

Or else they're all just pretending to be ignorant. :puke:

[Wizard777]

158. First of all I never said anything about rape. The only people that saying that are people trying

twist my words to fit their self indignation. The whole point I was making is that it's stupid to kill a homosexual in defense of you heterosexuality. Because they will put you jail where being heterosexual is a moot point. There are no women there that you will be able to have sex with. If you can't grasp the reality of that. Then you all are just psychotic.

[Wizard777]

156. Not all prison sex is rape. What you all can't seem to comprehend.

Is that when you are a man and your only choice of sexual partners is other men. It doesn't really matter if you are heterosexual. You need women to have Hetero sex. There aren't any. So FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES you might as well be gay. It doesn't mean that you are gay. It's like when someone says that FOR ALL INETENTS AND PURPOSES you might as well be throwing your money down a rat hole. It doesn't mean that you are actually throwing your money down a rat hole. It mean that for all the good that money is going to do you. You might as well be throwing your money down a rat hole.

[Toasterlad]

170. Methinks You're Watching Too Many Prison Movies...Or Not Enough.

Prison sex doesn't happen because guys need a tender outlet for their emotions. It doesn't even happen because guys get so horny they'll fuck anything. It happens because criminals are often violent people who commit violent crimes, including rape.

If a straight guy has the choice between jacking off and fucking another man, which do you think he'd choose? And for those fellas who decide to mutually trade hand jobs with their eyes screwed tight and thinking of tits: there's nothing remotely homosexual about it, and they definitely NOT "might as well be gay".

There's consensual gay sex going on in prisons, but I seriously doubt it's a significant percentage higher in there than it is out here.

[Wizard777]

178. No not at all. There is also prostitution that goes on in prisons. Even consensual sex.

Gay is a continuously morphing word. When I was younger it meant happy. Then it morphed into being homosexual. It was synonymous with the physical acts involved in homosexuality. Now it's morphing again to cover the emotional aspects of homosexuality. To set it apart from the physical aspects of homosexuality. It's just so much semantics. I agree that the scenarios you have mentioned doesn't neccesarily mean you are gay or even straight. But it does mean that at the very least you are Bisexual. As for masterbation. I'm one of those people that believes you have to have another person involved for it to be "sex."

[baby_mouse]

133. No. "Homosexual" means ATTRACTED to the same sex. NT.

[Wizard777]

159. You need to take Latin. Homo can mean Man or Same. Attract is attrahere

So the Latin for attracted to the same sex. Would be attraherehomosexuality. Homosexuality simply means same sex.

[LostinVA]

136. Engaging in situational homosexual behavior does not turn one gay

[Zuiderelle]

184. So, if I'm raped by a man, then I become straight? For all "intents and purposes?"

You can spin this any way you want, but you are completely wrong. Rape is not sex. Being gay is not about sex either, any more than being straight is about sex. You can't force someone to be straight or gay by raping them. And you can't just decide to have sex with someone of the same sex unless you are already at least bisexual. You don't turn gay just because there is no one of the opposite sex around.

[Quantess]

127. Unwillingly, without his consent, though.

I know you didn't mean this, but that's similar to saying that women who are raped are secretly enjoying it. Again, I know you did not say that. However, parallels can be drawn.

[baby_mouse]

134. 1. No, he won't "turn" even in the unlikely event he is raped.

2. Whoop-de-fucking-do! We get our own back on a murderer through turning him into ... DUN DUN DUUUUN one of our OWN, huh? Not particularly reassuring, thanks.

3. If prison rape is what pooped into your brain upon reading he story, well... maybe you should just stop thinking about gay people.

[dysfunctional press]

86. if the schools dress code bans steel-toed shoes as a safety hazard, why does it allow high heels?

:shrug:

[hulklogan]

88. Should it ban high heels? How high is too high?

What about platform shoes?

And why should it matter? It's not like the poor kid who had his face shot off was kicking people with his high heels.

[LostinVA]

90. Hmm -- I see that I have them on "Ignore" for a good reason

[dysfunctional press]

91. the article mentioned that steel-toed shoes were banned as a 'safety hazard'...

i don't see how they could be considered any more hazardous than high heels- which the dress code does allow.

[hulklogan]

92. Are high heels dangerous? I know steel-toed boots can do serious

damage, say in a fight and someone gets kicked in the face.

[dysfunctional press]

93. they can be- if wielded as a weapon, for one thing- sneakers don't have a pointy spike.

or if wearing them trying to go downstairs during a fire/firedrill, it would be easy for someone to fall- especially at the age where some of the girls or boys may be fairly new to wearing them.

[LWolf]

95. School dress codes vary widely.

In the last state I taught in, the dress code was literally many pages long, and included actual measurements for how short shorts could be, how loose pants could be, etc..

I the current school I teach in, the dress code is vague and loosely enforced. Students are reminded every winter not to wear pajamas, and every spring not to wear flip flops. Even those things are only enforced when they are seen to cause a problem.

I have a few middle-school girls show up in heels each year. They are excited and want to know what I think. I swallow my smirk and gravely offer to assist them to class so that they don't turn an ankle. After a few weeks, the heels disappear except for special occasions.

I've never asked the boys if their boots have steel toes; not too many wear boots to school. It's all about comfort. Hence the annual pajamas and flip flops.

[LWolf]

96. .

:cry:

:grr:

[nichomachus]

105. Interesting thought

I wonder what the reaction would be if he shot a kid in the head for taunting him.

Would there be people on here saying "Gee, taunting isn't acceptable behavior. The people doing the taunting should have known they could be shot. What were their parents thinking, letting them go to school and taunt people?"

The shooter is a murderer -- period. Someone else dressing in even the most outrageous clothes is no justification or excuse for violence. The question that needs to be asked is how the kid got the gun and where the hell were his parents.

[Lex]

109. Agreed.

Excellent post.

[Swamp Rat]

108. .

:cry:

[donheld]

129. .

:cry: maybe my heart bleeds too much

[madmom]

120. Maybe he dressed this way because he knew it would bring the problem

out in the open, not to this extent tho. I can remember being sent home because I wore jeans to school, girls could wear slacks NOT jeans. My problem is with the way clothes are "pushed" on people, one of the worse is the prosti-tot outfits they put out there for young girls.

[Rex]

124. Horrible.

:-(

[donheld]

130. The key

>>>led to demands that middle schools do more to educate youngsters about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.>>>

We must have this kind of education. Not just in middle school. Start in the very early grades. Continue it all the way through schools. We must also do more to end the homophobic speech of the Dobsons, Robertsons and other loud mouthed homophobes with microphones.

[gulliver]

139. Sexual harassment.

"But the day before the shooting, King told McInerney he liked him, eighth-grader Eduardo Segure told the Ventura County Star."

King has the right to dress or act in whatever way he likes, but he doesn't have the right to drag someone else into the storm with him. Maybe McInerney, a fourteen-year-old, was just barely coping with his own life and King pushed him over the edge, subjected McInerney to ridicule, etc. It is no excuse for murder (is there one?), but you are talking about kids, possibly impulsive, troubled ones.

I don't think harassment of King should have been tolerated, but I don't think his "flirting" should have been tolerated either. It seems clear it was unwanted, and the article implies that the "flirting" was retaliatory, not amorous. That makes it wrong. King may not have liked McInerney at all but simply told him that in order to humiliate him.

King should have gone to the school administrators. I suppose we will find out later if he did that and got no help. However, regardless, he is not entitled to use what amounts to sexual harassment as a retaliation.

It is easy to picture incompetent school administrators looking on at the "drag kid holding his own among the half-wits." Then bang.

[Toasterlad]

140. Yes, Thank God That Gay Kid Won't Be Able to Flirt With Straight Boys Anymore.

Probably shouldn't be have been MURDERED, but hey, he brought it on himself, right?

You make me sick.

[gulliver]

144. I didn't say he brought it on himself.

I just said he was wrong in using flirtation to harass in retaliation. He didn't deserve to be killed for it, but that's just academic. He was killed for something. King should have been doing his math, not fighting social injustice--if that is what he was doing. He was twelve. Adults are responsible for managing the conflicts.

If you think it is reasonable for a twelve-year-old to single-handedly make a stand like King did, maybe you should examine your own principles. My own say that the kids should be left out of it.

Unfortunately, there will be no one to blame in this except maybe McInerney. He was likely a fringe character, possibly, as I said, barely hanging on. Should school administrators have figured this out and stepped in? Who knows? Maybe they were incompetent. Maybe there is an entrenched bureaucracy that forced administrators to stand idly by. Maybe they didn't know.

All I know is that I have observed the workings of the schools and kids close up. I have my own. The things you see from all the participants are far from simple. There is more to the story.

[Toasterlad]

146. How Would You Suggest He Should Have "Retaliated"?

He was not "sexually harrassing" those boys. Sexual harassment implies a position of power. He was not the one with the power. Rather, he was confroting their unreasoning hate in a rather novel and beautiful way. He did not allow himself to be reduced to their level. He did not retaliate physically. He embraced their attacks, turned them around, and used them at as weapon. It was ingenious, commendable, and extraordinarily brave. His "flirting" did not get him killed. Blind, unreasoning hatred and ignorance killed him. He did absolutely nothing wrong, and your suggestion that he did is despicable.

[dsc]

149. not that it is terribly relevent

but he was 15, not 12.

[gulliver]

161. My mistake. n/t

[hulklogan]

142. You say it's no excuse but you're excusing a murder as retaliation for unwanted flirting.

Let's give all of our daughters guns so they can blow away the boys who give them attention that makes them feel uncomfortable! Murder is the solution!

[gulliver]

145. It's an explanation, not an excuse.

There is a big difference.

The story has to be placed into context, similar to the Brandon Teena case. You say it is murder, and it very well might be. It might also be some other legal form of homicide based on the capacity of the perpetrator.

I find the story repulsive, but that doesn't mean it should not be understood. Quite the opposite. My own experience makes me think that there are a lot more than two people involved in this. In fact, it would not be a story at all but for the fact that we ourselves are involved in it in some way. The social fight that King was engaging in was over the head of a twelve-year-old, IMO.

[JerseygirlCT]

165. "The social fight that King was engaging in was over the head of a twelve-year-old, IMO."

And isn't that unbelievable sad? Where were the adults to defend and support him? The adults to teach his tormentors that what they were doing was simply wrong? The culture that allows mistreatment and debasement of gay people as part of daily communication?

Why is a child left to fight this battle?

[JerseygirlCT]

150. So we now need the flirting police at HS? Or is it just same-sex

flirting that troubles you?

Should every kid who's been flirted with by someone he or she doesn't like in return call that harrassment?

And the victim didn't drag anyone into this. He was bullied, mercilessly. Instead of caving to his tormentors, he turned the tables a bit. If some deranged child, probably raised to be a bigot, lost it because of it, that's not the victim's fault.

[Echo In Light]

152. Jerseygirl nailed that one

[gulliver]

157. Flirting and teasing are one thing...

...but it becomes something else if it is not done for reasons of affection. I'll respond to your post, because you took the time to write a few sentences, even though one of them implies I am biased against homosexuals (which I am not).

My understanding from the article was that this flirting/teasing was done in retaliation. Two wrongs don't make a right. It is understandable that King might have chosen the approach he took to being harassed. But if King humiliated another student who was humiliating him, then King was in fact fighting, not flirting.

Let's go with one "Rashemon" version of the incident, although we don't know and may never know what actually happened. Assume that King is an openly gay boy who simply wants to be himself, so he wears jewelry and high heels to school, etc. He is creating an image for himself. And assume there are a contingent of people who resent King, one or more of whom are mad dog bigots. Then, one of the mad dog bigots accosts King in a school hallway and harrasses him. If King responds by walking away, good. If King responds by trying to explain that he is just trying to be himself, good.

But if King blows the mad dog bigot a kiss, he has "dragged the bigot" into his ("King's") story. Now the bigot is part of the storm that King is in (through merely, legitimately trying to be himself). The storm that surrounds King now includes a mad dog bigot who has been humiliated publicly. There is nothing right about that, but reality doesn't check with us before it decides what happens next.

Who knows what actually happened in this case, though? I have personally been involved with issues involving real-life abusive behavior by students and including school and media responses. The truth is the first thing to go out the window. The story becomes a political statement to some, a media frenzy to others, a career threat to others, a melodrama, a movie or book deal.

[JerseygirlCT]

163. The only reason that flirting with him would bother the

killer is that he harbors some deep and nasty hatred for homosexuals. The victim's action could as well be seen as an attempt at education and making light of the remarks thrown at him.

Have you ever responded to a particularly mean person making rude comments to you with a sunny "have a nice day!" just to A) point out what a jerk he/she is being and B) sure, make a sort of passive aggressive statement that can annoy them back.

I'm just not willing to say that accomodation needs to be made for those who are bigoted. So, it made him angry - so what? That's an excuse for reacting with violence? Obviously no one taught the kid how to "use his words" as the preschool teachers would say.

His problem seems to be that even the mere suggestion that a gay person liked him is enough to "taint" him in his eyes and those of his similarly disposed friends' eyes. How sad is that?

(And while I think the perpetrators of this horrible act, and likely there parents, are bigots, I never called or implied you are such - just for the record.)

[wpelb]

166. Schools have policies against displays of affection, etc.

These usually apply to heterosexual acts of affection, and are not enforced all that consistently (i.e., some schools enforce them strictly, others not at all, while in others it probably depends on who you are). Unfortunately, any rule that applies to either or taunting or flirting is not going to be very effective if it's not enforced consistently.

"Educating" kids who can't learn to read, write, or do math (according to all the scandalous reports about test scores that we often read) about how to treat sexual minorities (gays, lesbians, transsexuals, transgendered, etc.) will probably be just as ineffective.

[JerseygirlCT]

171. Mostly about public displays of affection - that is to say,

actions involving actual touching. And yes, they are often very, very inconsistently enforced. Usually, in fact, gay kids will find that the most innocent of touch - a quick shoulder to shoulder hug, for instance - is suddenly seen in a nefarious light by some administrators once it's known that one or both of the participants are gay.

As to the problems of educating them, if we're to just give up because we're not reaching everyone, what's the solution? I can't go there. Education is more organic than that - that is to say, I don't think you isolate reading and writing from tolerant behavior - it's all of a piece, and all geared toward guiding kids into becoming effective members of society.

[Bluebear]

153. 'drag someone else into the storm with him' What "storm"?

[gulliver]

160. The storm that happens sometimes when someone takes...

...an unpopular or unusual stand. For example, if you are sitting in a room full of Republicans and decide to say something like "The troops did their duty honorably, so they didn't die in vain. However, they died for bad reasons and America has suffered for the war they were ordered to fight in."

That kind of storm. I'm apparently in a little storm in this thread right now.

Let's say that King was in such a storm. The article seems to be trying to paint that picture. Then, if some mad dog bigot harasses King in a school hallway and King retaliates by, for example, blowing a kiss to his assailant, King would have dragged the assailant into the storm. Now the assailant would be "the guy who got a kiss blown to him," possibly humiliated and subject to further humiliation.

Ha ha, that serves him right. Well, no. It doesn't serve him "right." It potentially escalates the situation. It's not King's fault he was being harassed, but it is King's fault that his harasser is now humiliated and possibly subject to future ridicule. The escalation would be King's fault (mistake) even if King thought he was being light hearted and trying to diffuse the situation. (On edit: Because King simply could have miscalculated...not because he is in the wrong.)

I'm not looking to fix blame and make a conclusion here. I don't know the details of the story. From experience, I have seen a story similar to this one spin completely into a bizarre media frenzy with little relation to the truth. I found it outrageous, so I try to take a stand against simplistic conclusions being made before the facts are all in.

[Zuiderelle]

186. In one sentence you say it is King's fault and in another you say you are not looking to fix blame.

Which is it?

[Zuiderelle]

185. So now kids can't flirt with eachother? Or are you just saying gay kids can't?

Sexual harassment? Are you nuts?

(I see someone else already responded much the same way, but I'm leaving my comment.)

[Omaha Steve]

154. Probable reason for the shooting

Larry told the shooter Brandon McInerney he had a crush on him.

[Toasterlad]

173. The Reason For the Shooting Was Blind Hate.

I don't give two shits if King announced over the PA system he wanted to blow McInerney in front of the next student assembly. That's not a reason to kill someone.

King was killed because of hate, and hate alone.

[Omaha Steve]

182. Agreed

My post was the motive released by the prosecutor at the time.

[applegrove]

183. How horrible.

[BlueFireAnt]

188. I have to ask myself this question, along with all of you.

The shooter is being charged and tried as an adult. He is 15 years old. I have argued against kids being tried and sentenced as adults, and I have seen the same arguments made here. Should the shooter be rehabilitated or should he be thrown to the wolves for life?

If the victim were straight, would we be so quick to comdemn this child, or would we be begging for leniency?

[Zookeeper]

189. Heartbreaking! The irony is that the same boys who would...

feel justified in harming a gay male who flirted with them, would likely feel free to harass a girl and be offended if she responded with anger. (Coming on to a girl in public implies that the harasser thinks she's "easy." What would the reaction be if every woman approached this way responded with violence?)