The worst thing about being an American,...is the betrayal.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

I was "taught" from birth "American Values": work hard for your life, contribute to the community and be law-abiding ---> you will succeed and acquire "THE American Dream".

I didn't have a CHANCE!!!!

[leftofthedial]

1. sucka!

they saw you coming!



me too.



crime pays in Murka. period.

[OwnedByFerrets]

2. For MOST,

the American Dream is dead...whether they realize it or not.

[selador]

5. it's working great for me

many in my family and many of my friends.

i have seen it repeated over and over again, in this great nation

you can naysay all you want, and deny reality

a huge part was taking my grandfather 's advice (who lived through the depression) : investing EVERY MONTH w./o fail in a basic diversified mutual fund

i've done that since i was 18, and it's been a major wealth builder.

when i started i could barely afford $50 a month

but through the wonder of capitalism, compounding, and access to great companies - it worked.

[Stargazer99]

7. What if that $50 per month was a choice between rent, gas to get to

work, a doctor's care or dental work? You are not in the same catagory as many Americans

[selador]

35. in some ways

but i have lived in the hood, and been poor.

and i see that even in poverty people make choices. some good, some bad.

for example, i knew a lot of people who despite being very poor CHOSE to smoke.

for anybody who smokes, consider how much you spend on smoking. stop smoking and invest that money.

that's one simple answer.

i've also seen people who continually buy overprocessed more expensive food.

many people in ANY income class tend to always overextend themselves. make 40k live like you make 60 k. make 60k live like you make 80k.

one of american's worst traits is their abysmal savings rates.

[Skittles]

21. you don't get it

sure, it has worked out for some - but for many others, the dream is COMPLETELY STACKED AGAINST THEM

[selador]

36. we have greater

income quintile mobility than nearly any other nation on earth.

sure, some people are born on 1st base, others on third.

but for ANYBODY in this great country, the opportunities are legion.

[eridani]

50. No, we don't

Most northern European countries have greater financial mocility.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/us-behind-europe-in-employment-for-disadvantaged-income-mobility-health-and-crime/

The U.S. has a smaller share of low-income workers that make it to higher income levels than any other OECD country. This contradicts the widespread belief that American workers have a much greater chance of getting ahead than do European workers.

The U.S. has lower adult employment rates than many advanced welfare states, including Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway and

[selador]

79. excellent post

actual DATA!

i applaud you

[OwnedByFerrets]

25. Well woopty fucking doo for you.....

Im so very glad for you. For many of us its not. And no amount of NaySaying by you will change that either. Reality is that murika is in for a rude awakening soon.

[Hannah Bell]

26. That's because you're stupid, lazy, or dishonest, doncha know.

Everyone can be a millionaire if they just have the right stuff, doncha know.

[Skittles]

29. YES!!

IF I MADE IT THAT MEANS *EVERYONE* NOT ONLY CAN, BUT SHOULD!!! :puke:

[Hannah Bell]

31. Except that if everyone were a millionaire, no one would be.

The more rich, the more poor.

One only knows he's rich by comparison with those lower.

One only knows he's not by comparison with those above.

So in order for our poster to "make it," others must not.

Else how could he achieve the pleasant feeling of superiority over others that apparently forms his chief motivation?

[selador]

40. not at all

there are many ways to make it. not all involve massive material wealth. i had to work REALLY hard to get the job i wanted. immense amounts of traveling, scrimping, applying, and rejection before i really got started.

and i chose a career that offered very mediocre pay but other great benefits.

there are all sorts of opportunities if you open your eyes and work hard.

people all over the world realize this. that's why so many flock TO america.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. That is because our wonderful media

is exported abroad

For example... how much of Dallas do you think is based on any sort of reality? That was the most popular TEEVEE program in Latin America in the 1980s

We sell a myth both inside and outside, and this myth has been for sale since the late 1800s by the way.

And what is sad is that people actually buy the propaganda, but the wealth distribution statistics tells a very different story... don't bother trying to explain to people who have bought the dream (inside and outside the country) that the statistics deny the myth

By the way... here is a piece of trivia you may not be aware off

It was far easier for your grand dads generation to start a business... and that was not just the US.

These days the way the economy works (and as far from Adam Smith as you can get) starting a business is not only almost impossible, but try competing with Wally Mart. We are to the point that if you want to compete you need to hire slave labor in China. Point to me WHERE in the Wealth of Nations Adam Smith applauded monopolistic practices and slavery. I am willing to bet that you will spend the rest of your life looking for that, since Smith hated that.

[Echo In Light]

52. Well stated

[OwnedByFerrets]

59. Great post Hannah

Thank you for chiming in.

[selador]

39. ameica offers great opportunity

the dream is not dead. people still flock to this country to participate in the great experiment

america is a great country, full of opportunity

naysay all you want.

i love my country, i recognize the opportunity, i'm fiercely proud of her, and i aint ashamed ot proclaim it loud and clear.

[Skittles]

48. I used to feel as you do

but I see what is going on with my friends, my neighbors - they used to think exactly like you do - really

[selador]

76. i'm aware of that

i'm not aware of that feeling AMONGST my neighbors and fwiw, i live in a solidly middle class and also very diverse neighborhood.

i can respect your difference of opinion, i just strongly disagree.

[Selatius]

66. If they wanted easier upward income mobility, they'd be better off going to Europe.

There are opportunities in the US. There is no dispute there. The only dispute is over how much, and frankly, I don't think there is enough equality of opportunity.

[selador]

77. among other things

i didn't say specifically upward income mobility

i said income quintile mobility PERIOD was exceptionally high

wealth is not zero sum. income quintile movement is (because it is necessarily broken down into 1/5th's). that's the basic math of economics. the baseline and the means and medians FOR each quintile can change (for the better or worse). but the movement between them IS necessasrily zero sum.

what is interesting in this country is how many people in the upper two quintiles spent time IN the lower quintiles.

heck, i certainly did. if you spend any time studying biographies of the rich and even the upwardly mobile and upper middle class, it is ASTOUNDING how many people in the upper two quintiles were in either of the bottom 2 (and to some extent the middle) for at least one time, if not more in their lives.

with great opportunity COMES great opportunity for FAILURE. it cannot be any other way.

for example, as much as people here BASH corporations, corporations are HARD pressed to succeed. over 85% of businesses fail, for instance.

[Selatius]

81. Most businesses in America are small time operations and not...

corporations. Makes sense that the failure rate is 85%. The majority of businesses in America are either partnerships or sole proprietorships (probably the biggest category of all) or S Corps or LLCs. The big ones are more typically C Corps. Something like 2/3rds of this economy is still based around small businesses.

[selador]

82. yes

and every single one of those big corporations STARTED out as a small business

and the vast majority fails. it doesn't mean america doesn't work

it means there is opportunity, not guarantees. and higher risk/reward ventures (like starting a business) are just that

[selador]

38. of course

i didn't say that.

but don't let yourself get all itchy raiding the barn to construct strawmen.

luck plays a part of course. but this country offers immense opportunity.

you can try to seize it, or not . up to you

[OwnedByFerrets]

58. Wink, Wink, Nudge, Nudge.....

Ty:)

[selador]

37. rubbish

a big part of it is about being positive, taking responsibility for your own actions, dealing with the lumps (whether your fault or not) and moving on and trying

this country offers great opportunity, and i frigging LOVE it.

naysay all you want. this country is great. i'm not going to be ashamed to admit how much i love this country, and how much opportun ity it provides us all

[Echo In Light]

53. Your "deny reality" remark makes you sound like a "dungeon" alias

[wain]

3. Absolutely no chance? You don't say why that is.

What do you do after giving up? What becomes of your existence?

"Don't let the bastards get your down." Why accept the lot you feel someone or something is handing you?

[selador]

4. i was taught, and it was correct

that if you do the above you have the best chance to achieve the american dream

there are no GUARANTEES nor are they implied in the greatest wealth creation system ever devised by man- capitalism

fwiw, i have achieved the american dream through hard work, contribution and being law abiding, and see umpteen examples of the same

i have seen many people who have, through little to no fault of their own - fallen on hard times.

i have seen FAR FAR more who primarily fail because of their own behaviours.

i have also seen the US has among the highest income quintile mobility in the world.

the dream is achievable

[Stargazer99]

6. For many Americans the dream is not achievable

to think otherwise is to be in denial or uninformed. If you've made it through good guidance be happy but do not critize others who may not have had your advantages.

[MadAndy]

12. I'm sorry but you dont know wtf your talking about. If you cant make it in America

its your own damn fault.

[Lars39]

13. Been wiped out by a tornado, housefire,hurricane?

Had 3 surgeries in 5 years? Been in a few car accidents? Had cancer or some other debilitating chronic disease? Had a child born with a severe handicap or chronic condition needing monthly meds that cost a small fortune?

Your arrogance is astounding.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

17. *snicker*...just gets better.

[MadAndy]

22. Why dont you answer the question rather than snickering like a fool?

[EFerrari]

24. You must be lost.

[selador]

42. oh, i didn;'t realize

that being left of center means that i must be a person that denigrates america and disputes the immense oppportunities it offers. one can still work for BETTER without denying the greatness that is america.

you are playing right into rightwing stereotypes ABOUT democrats.

i;m not a progressive, ok. im a DEMOCRAT. i believe in capitalism and i believe in america.

many people here think the american dream is over, bla bla bla

our system works. it has problems but it is still a phenomenal country, and i count my blessings i was lucky enough to be born here.

stop being such a stereotypical naysayer.

[EFerrari]

64. Actually, no. You are the one regurgitating right wing memes.

The vast RW conspiracy thanks you.

[selador]

75. not a right wing meme.

to believe in america, to believe in the american dream.

fwiw, both barack and hillary do, or at least say they do.

and i do too.

you are taking your narrow (and face it) anti-american viewpoint and thinking it is universal amongst the left which THANK GOD it is not

i believe in america. i believe in the american dream. i believe this country offers IMMENSE opportunity to its citizens and its system, while far from perfect, works very very well.

YOU are exactly the stereotype that the right doesn't have to create because you are right here.

you are a self-parody. i would have thought the right wingers were mostly fabricating people like you, as a bogeyman (much like they created the fear of WMD's). but they haven't created a bogeyman. unless you are a clever turing machine, you do exist, and judging by some of the posts in this thread, you are quite prevalent, or at least quite vocal

[EFerrari]

78. And there you go again.

lol

[selador]

83. wow

talk about right wing memes!

"there you go again".

how "subtle"

but yes. i'll repeat it. i love america. it's a land of great oportunity. i love this nation.

[RedCappedBandit]

34. I find your avatar exceedingly ironic.

[Occulus]

62. Define "make it"

I was an accomplished musician on my way to a career teaching high school music. My parents decided I wasn't worthy of that and stopped helping me pay for school right after the financial aid for the year got awarded. That forced me out of school and, living with them at the time, I was forced to get a full-time job or be on the street (again! the previous year, Themselves gave me a wet ditch to sleep in).

This was a year or so after graduating high school 13th in my class, with both NHS cords, more music honors than I could name, etc. I didn't want to get wealthy or famous; all I ever wanted to do was to give back to future generations what my teachers gave to me. My own parents made certain I didn't have the ability to do what I wanted to with my life, and their suspiciously 'perfect' timing makes me wonder if they didn't actually sit down and plan out how to ruin it all. 'Bitter' doesn't even come close to how I feel about it, and this all happened thirteen or so years ago.

Since then, I've replaced that talent with other things, but even if I ever do get to go back to school for what I'm now interested in (and I wasted years and years figuring it out, by the way), I'll be quite a ways behind people a decade and a half my junior, who have been using those tools years longer than I have. Even if I get to go back to school eventually for 3D modeling/animation- and, in all honesty, I am getting closer to that with every dollar of debt I pay off, but I'm not even going to try school again until I'm debt-free- I'll be ~fifteen years older than the equally-or-more-experienced people around me. Who would you hire- a forty-year-old, or an equally experienced twenty-five-year-old?

My point? Believe it or not, if someone (usually, someone in charge of the purse) decides they don't want you to succeed, all the talent and determination in the world won't help you. If people 'in charge' want you to fail, you will, and through no fault of your own. It's called sabotage, and it sucks.

I did learn a very valuable lesson, though: parents are never to be trusted with college funding. Since that time, I have heard an awful, awful lot of stories about parents using their own kids' educations against them, and it turns my stomach each and every time.

[cbaker3122]

86. Break the Cycle

My mom is a brilliant lady, now 67, but when she was in her early twenties, her mom (my grandmother) refused to even ALLOW her to go to college, even though my mom found a way to work to pay for it herself. When my mom secretly tried to take a few classes at community college, my grandmother sabatoged it, and basically forced her to get a full time job, live at home with my grandmother and give her whole paycheck to contribute to the household.

To this day, 47 years later, my mom has been kept in low paying jobs because she was never able to go to school when she had the chance. My grandmother never saw how wrong she was even as she was dying. My mom never says anything bad about my grandmother, but I know she was hurt by this and her whole life was limited by my grandmother's actions.

But when my mom had her two sons, she told us TO ALWAYS stay in school and get a degree NO MATTER WHAT, and she would help all she could (she gave every penny to help us through school). I'm now a lawyer and my brother is a doctor. We retired her a few years ago.

I know you've been hurt by your parents trying to hold you back. Perhaps the way to heal is to break the cycle like my mom did.

[selador]

41. first of all

you have no idea what advantages i had or didn't have

second ofall,i am NOT criticizing those who havent made it

i am criticizing those who think the dream is over. you naysayers

plenty of good people can work hard and still struggle. just because there is great opportunity does not mean everything is perfectly fair and life is all roses.

i've never seen a BETTER system than we have.

[treestar]

8. Oh please! You and your family were luck, and I and my family

are lucky, but let us not pretend that luck does not have a great deal to do with it! You have no right to judge those who started out without the advantages you have, and no right to feel superior to them when you started out from the middle class.

[MadAndy]

11. Luck has nothing to do with it. Take some personal responsibility for sucess.

Screwing up has consequences.

[kineneb]

14. but don't get sick

or you could lose everything, and the dream becomes a nightmare...

Yes, sometimes the opportunity is there, but it is, in the end, all about luck: the luck of genetics, of temperament, of health, of timing, of who your parents are... all the responsibility on the planet will not change a person's DNA.

[MadAndy]

16. Which genetic conditions cause failure? Skin color? Deformaties? People succeed despite those

things. People succeed despite having poor parents and poor health. Plus those things happen anywhere. They are not specific to America, but you have a better chance here than other places.

[Hannah Bell]

32. Most, in fact, don't. as you might know if you looked at the statistics

on disability.

an acquaintance of mine, for example, worked all his life with a serious disability. He achieved a house, pension, & small investment income. Unfortunately, by age 55 he was unable to walk, dress himself, or take care of most of his personal needs. He had to take early retirement. Within two years he was in a nursing home, & 2 years after that he had to sell everything he owned so the state would pick up the cost of his care, because NH rates rose by thousands each year, outpacing his pension & SS.

He died at 67, bankrupt, after 10 years in the nursing home. Mentally sharp, physically wrecked. That was his "american dream".

He worked all his life so he could retire to a nursing home as a pauper & die of infected bedsores. Since the nh cost 60K a year, but somehow it wasn't enough for the physical therapy he should have got to keep his blood moving, or for bed turns to keep him off pressure points.

[selador]

44. just take a look at

how many wealthy people in this country started from nothing or near there. far more common than many other countries. we have MORE INCOME QUINTILE MOBILITY than nearly any nation on earth

[Selatius]

67. You're flatly wrong about upward income mobility in America.

You find better upward mobility in several European countries than in the US. There is less emphasis on equality of opportunity in America than there is in some other countries.

[selador]

73. try READING

i didn't say UPWARD income quintile mobility.

i said INCOME quintile mobility. it works BOTH ways.

IT HAS to.

economies are nto zero sum. quintiles ARE.

do you understand the difference? it's math.

quintiles are based on 20 % of the population. period. so, if one person moves INTO a quintile, necessarily one person has to move out. but of course the baselines for the quintiles necessarily change over time. that's one way to measure (but not the only way) wealth GENERATION is the movement of the quintilies THEMSELVES from former to current baselines.

but i can't explain ramifications OF the math, if you don't understand the basic math

you (and others here) continually prove my point. that so many critics of capitalism don't even understand BASIC ECONOMICS. you are like creationists, most of whom don't understand the BASICS of evolution, but criticize it nonetheless

anybody who doesn't understand that income quintile mobility (unlike wealth building) IS zero sum (the net movement is necessarily zero), doesn't understand BASIC economics

assume that there are 250 people in the country

thus, there would NECESSARILY be 50 people in each quintile.

you CAN'T have more than 50 people in each quintile because quintiles (UNLIKE WEALTH) are defined as a zero sum entity. they are 1/5 OF the population.

duh

[Selatius]

80. Nobody I know uses income quantile mobility as...

a measure of what one wants the economy to do as opposed to simply measuring movements of individuals in a national ranking regimen based on income, or wealth if one prefers. A lot of people here are talking about normative economics. They talk about normative economics (describing how to manipulate an economy for a desired outcome), while you're talking about positive economics (simply how the economy works as observed). Sure, the US has a level of income quantile mobility, but at the end of the day, most folks would sooner point to adjusted median income as a measure of progress or lack thereof or more directly tables measuring income distribution/wealth distribution as more meaningful in terms of understanding how the economy is currently moving.

I could move into the next quantile simply because the man ahead of me in line fucked up and dropped to the end or simply died. Congratulations, I moved up without working any harder than I did. Conversely, I could drop back simply because someone behind me won the lottery and opted for a pay-out over several years. That's why I don't see income quantile mobility as anymore meaningful in a normative sense (not positive sense because it is useful there) compared to gini coefficients measuring inequality or even adjusted median income or income tables published by the BLS and so on. Theoretically, you could have a situation where income disparity grows, yet the rate of income quantile mobility remains the same. While in any economy there is always disparity, it's also true that too much disparity can be a very bad thing, potentially leading to political instability. Income quantile mobility would fail to register any problem.

If it appears to you that I didn't comprehend what you were saying, then it was because I ignored the thrust of your post as irrelevant to normative economic discussion.

[walldude]

18. "Luck has nothing to do with it" Really?

I have two words for you. Paris Hilton.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

and before you get all huffy, both you and Lars are correct. It doesn't just take hard work, it also takes talent, a bit of luck and brains, and not everyone has all those things. It can also easily be destroyed by unforeseen things.

[MadAndy]

20. You make your own luck. Its attitude. There are no guarantees but

there are more opportunities in America than anywhere else. You have to exert a bit of effort rather than sitting on your ass.

[Selatius]

70. Attitude is no guarantee. That's the problem.

Just because you get your ducks in a row doesn't mean the payday comes. See, I believe in limited, not absolute, control over one's future outcome. There are several factors affecting that outcome, one of them being where you want to go, but there are other factors that you have no control over. Reality isn't as rosy as some people want it to be, and it isn't as ugly as others want it to be.

[Hannah Bell]

33. apparently spelling doesn't.

yes, make sure to take responsibility. very important. follow the example of "successes" like our president, the traders at bear sterns, the bosses at enron, etc.

i mean, they obviously got to the top because of their skills & sense of personal responsibility, right?

& the well-paid american professional class - doctors, lawyers, administrators - they never screw up, & if they do, they always accept responsibility & take their medicine, right?

everyone with money is good, yeah?

& those without, aren't. it's so obvious & clear cut. even an idiot could get it.

[selador]

43. who said

luck doesn't play a part. of course it does.

as has been said before, a huge element of doing well is RECOGNIZING opportunity (which often happens by chance) and seizing it when you see it. and if you fail, keep plugging away.

as woody allen said, 90% is just showing up

staying at home and whinging about how the american dream is no more (what a ridiculous lie) aint gonna improve anybodys lot in life

[eridani]

51. Your investments would be worth shit if not for the rest of the population living beyond its means

If everybody saved a lot and invested, the consumer driven economy that makes investments go up in value would come to a screeching halt.

[Karenina]

9. That's why I voted with my feet.

[JCMach1]

87. I second that... I could have stayed in the States for the wonderful opportunity

of paying too much for health care and being underpaid.

[MadAndy]

10. You just dont the difference between a chance and a guarrantee.

[Karenina]

19. May America's karma hit you first.

:evilgrin:

[MadAndy]

23. Whose Karma would you rather have? With your attitude you're not going to amount to anything,

and it has nothing to do with America.

[Hannah Bell]

27. Let's see...

65% of americans rely on social security for 50% or more of their retirement income.

33% rely on it for 90-100%.

I guess they're all stupid, lazy drunks.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_11182004

[Hannah Bell]

28. If you construct a system of procedures that funnels 22% of income

and 40-60% of wealth/power to 1% of the population, the people below them who'll do "best", on average, are those who are interested in wealth & don't mind signing on to promote the interests of the 1% for a cut of the booty.

[Hannah Bell]

30. In a game of Monopoly, there's only 1 winner. The game may take

a short time or a long time, but the ending is always the same.

Because the rules are constructed to deliver that result.

[selador]

47. except

as is classic with people who don't understand economics - a game of monopoly is ZERO SUM

no wealth is created in monopoly. only transferred. the US (and ANY economy) is not zero sum. we create wealth through a vibrant economy.

i used to be quite successful fwiw at poker (online) before my state decided to enter the nannystate business and make it a C felony at which point i stopped

poker is zero sum ... actually with the rake, its negative expectancy because it is zero sum MINUS transactions costs. the money i made (which was pretty decent) was because i was better than the people i played against.

the economy is different it is NOT zero sum.

so, comparing it monopoly (or poker) shows a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the most fundamental aspects of economics.

it is so blatantly obvious and so typical of people who don't understand even the first principles, but have wonderful opinions based on premises that are simply wrong.

[Hannah Bell]

55. eventually - it is. you just havent figured it out yet. n't

[selador]

72. no it isnt

explainign this to you is like explaining evolution to a creationist.

if you simply want to ignore the cold hard data, and the science (economies are NOT zero sum) then there is no hope for you

devolve into your rhetoric and ideology over facts world.

it must be comfortable there with the fundamentalists

criticizing capitalism is an opinion. otoh, not understanding that economies are not zero sum is not an opinion . it's willful disregard for facts

one is entitled to one's own opinion, not one's own facts

[Hannah Bell]

74. you can't explain it cause you don't get it.

if you knew what you were talking about, you could explain it.

[selador]

46. not at all

classic zero sum argumentation

wealth is created as well as funneled.

i don't promote any rich person's interests. i made my own way.

rich people HELPED me. for example, when i buy a stock, i buy a piece of a rich man/woman's dream business.

bought apple when steve jobs took over. he (a rich man)helped MY wealth.

[Fire Walk With Me]

68. Ding!

:thumbsup:

[selador]

45. no

but americans as a whole have an abysmal savings/investment rate.

that's not the fault of our country.

[Fumesucker]

84. that's not the fault of our country.

Actually it is..

Either Americans are markedly less intelligent than the citizens of those countries with higher savings rates...

Or they are responding to cultural, political or economic disincentives to save.

Is it your contention that Americans are stupid as a whole?

[Echo In Light]

54. Karenina, looks like some righties are here to defend the favored state's propaganda

I wonder if perhaps some of them have been branching out from the Dungeon lately?

[OwnedByFerrets]

61. Yes, Freeperville allowed them a nite out

last nite. It was quite obvious in many threads. I hope they went back to their shithole of a site and bragged about how they "showed" us libruls a thing or two.:puke:

[Echo In Light]

63. Their urgent want of attacking by way of insults/condescension always gives em away

[datasuspect]

49. capitalism for the workers

and socialism for the investment bankers and corporations!

rah! rah! rah! sis boom bah!

America is the greatest! If you don't love it, leave it! If your (intentional freeperized misspelling) poor, it's you're (intentional freeperized misspelling) own damn fault!

[ileus]

56. I did, and Have.

Could live in a little less depressed area but it's working out great for the wife and I.

[Lorien]

69. I did, and Had

until a hereditary health problem and corrupt health insurance company wiped out everything I had worked for. In America, health care costs alone can ruin you.Just because you pay your $365.00 a month for coverage doesn't mean that you are guaranteed a damn thing.

[Mika]

57. I know how to solve it! Just print more shitloads of money. Then we can all be millionaires.

Of course, it'll take $5 million dollars to buy bread, but we'll all be millionaires. :crazy:

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. Tell me about it.

[CBGLuthier]

65. I don't know, I think the GUILT is worse

the knowledge that for over 60 years my country has been raping and destroying nation after nation in its insatiable desire for coporate prosperity.

I can live with the fact that the american dream is a myth. But the simple fact that we may be one of the greatest forces for evil in history is hard to accept.

[newspeak]

71. the "I've got mine mentality"

During the Depression, they were saying the same thing. You know, if you just work hard and invest well, you'll be okay. My hubby, in a management position has been laid off, along with other managers--all in their fifties. I remember during Reagan's presidency people were being laid off and the word "restructuring" reared its ugly head. Hubby and I both read a book written by Nesbitt back then, about how workers have more freedom moving from company to company and workers would be in demand by the corporations. See, those corporations were going to be hurting for laborers-we, as workers, would be in demand. Yet, companies were laying off employees at the time--some companies were going into bankruptcy. I have a chart of companies that were gutted due to hostile takeovers at the time. But, even the colleges were "catapulting the propaganda" that we now had more latitude in our job choices because we were in demand. What a crock of shite!!!! The 401K program can be seen as a good thing or a bad thing, depending upon the company. My father-in-law lost lots of money through his 401K-bad company investments. Just look at Enron and what happened to the employees' investments. Now, we have stocks with the company that we cannot sell--no profit. Many corporations have done away with pension plans.

After NAFTA-GATT was signed, I remember Clinton publicly announcing that we were now to be more involved as a service industry. The first thing I thought was that we would be working at McDonalds. Of course, you know they then started moving those service jobs to places like India.

We've been sold the belief that we don't work as hard as the Japanese, yet when an auto manufacturing center is closed due to those same American workers, working hard and doing things right. Then, what is the excuse. Maybe, it's because we don't work "cheap" enough for the greedheads!

Congratulations!!! Some, and I mean some are doing well, others are not. Gee, maybe we can bring back debtors' prisons. I mean, doesn't that go along with the robber barons?

[John Kerry VonErich]

88. I aquired the American Dream

[orangerevolution]

89. Which part are you having trouble with doing?

working hard, contributing to the community or being law-abiding? These are things you have to do.

[joe_sixpack]

90. Wanted to comment,

but saw that one replier was already banned, so nevermind.