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Why did Rove get involved in the case against Don Siegelman?

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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:49 PM
Original message
Why did Rove get involved in the case against Don Siegelman?
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 04:52 PM by southlandshari
Before you respond, please understand that this is a serious question on my part. I would appreciate serious and thoughtful answers from those who have them.

I know that my opinions on Don Siegelman run counter to those of just about everyone else here. I accept that few, if any, here, view him through the same lens I do. I am willing to bow out of discussions about Siegelman from here on out, save this one thread. I will not disrupt his supporters with my posts anymore.

I just feel like I am missing something here. Don Siegelman was a sinking ship in Alabama for years before Rove reportedly got involved in his case. There was plenty of evidence of his corruption and cronyism in dealings like the Goat Hill Construction Company and fees paid to him as a result of the big tobacco settlements here in Alabama back in the 1990's. His dealings with Richard Scrushy were just latest of his dealings with those who are the very worst of what this state has to offer.

More recently, Siegelman was trounced in the 2006 gubernatorial Democratic primary by Lucy Baxley, a woman he had mocked and made sexist remarks about during the campaign. She received twice as many votes here as Siegelman - no small feat, considering that there were four other candidates in the race as well.

Let me say that I do believe that Rove and other Bush Administration folks are currently involved in the Siegelman case. That said, I am left scratching my head when faced with determining their motives.

Why get involved with the prosecution of someone like Don Siegelman, when the evidence against him was already there?

Why have all the "whistle-blowing" accounts regarding Rove come from long-time political enemies of Don Siegelman?

Why would Rove or any other Republican at the national level care about doing in a Democratic Party has-been in a state that has voted Republican for decades? It is not as if Alabama is some important swing state, after all.

I don't get it.

I realize that there may be an explanation other than the one I have drawn, and I am open to hearing suggestions to that end.

I look forward to your thoughts.

:)
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. powerful, punitive bullies
trying to discredit all Democrats, even bad ones
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That doesn't make sense to me
I agree that people like Karl Rove are powerful, punitive bullies. But some, like Rove, are also very intelligent. That's what makes them dangerous.

I've got to believe that someone like Rove - or any political strategist worth his salt - is going to plan his attacks based on a cost-benefit analysis.

And that is where the disconnect is for me. I just don't see the benefit to Republicans in general that would justify the cost of time and resources in getting involved in Siegelman's case.

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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. as a warning to others?
"This is what we will do to you."
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. "This is what we will do to you".....if what?
If you are a Democratic ex-governor in a traditionally conservative state without much support among your own party ranks?

:shrug:
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terrell9584 Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I seem to remember Siegelman being the assumed frontrunner
After the whole plan for progress debacle. The polling they took had him as the strongest when compared to Riley, Moore, and Baxley. Any opposition that Siegelman had was rooted in the fact that tried to treat the legislature in the same way that Wallace did, and got a rude awakening that this is no longer the 80's.

I actually had wanted a Siegelman/Moore race because it would have been a culture clash election, and it would have ended in the election of Siegelman over Moore, which would have been a boost for the image of the state. Siegelman was going to run to the right of Riley on everything except for new state programs, and he was going to pay for those programs with gambling revenue. It was a few years ago when he gave that press conference where he was talking about sexual offenders and he brought out a pair of garden shears. Siegelman would have done something Baxley didn't have the heart to, gone scorched earth on Riley. Every ad he would have run would have been "He wanted to raise your taxes while giving a tax cut to Alabama Power"

They took out Siegelman because they knew he would win, and because Siegelman, if he had rehabilitated his image while in the mansion, would have been a serious contender for the U.S. Senate once Shelby retires.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Aha!
This is the first plausible reason I've seen given, and I appreciate you for sharing it...

They took out Siegelman because they knew he would win, and because Siegelman, if he had rehabilitated his image while in the mansion, would have been a serious contender for the U.S. Senate once Shelby retires.


I'm not 100% convinced, but this is definitely food for thought.

:)
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terrell9584 Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Siegelman would have beat Riley in 2006
The legislature baited Riley into a trap with Plan for Progress, the idea that combined tax hikes on services with tax cuts on utility companies. That should have sealed his fate. Riley ended up getting a reprieve, because whatever else you can say about him, he's good in a crisis, and in Katrina he was admirable, and because Siegelman, his stronger opponent went down.

It angers the Republicans that we still control the legislature as we have since 1874. It angers them that there is still a statewide office in Alabama that the Republicans have never won, it boggles their mind that they have yet to win control the legislature. It's all about trying to destroy the Democratic Party in the South. Also, the fact that Siegelman, as a Catholic from the coast who had a Jewish wife, represented the exact opposite kind of Alabama from the one that Rove speaks to, the Evangelical Baptist part of the state.

It's all politics. If Siegelman's conviction was justified, then we should go back and put James and Folsom in prison, because they also put Scrushy on that board, and we should find some way to act against Guy Hunt too.

Siegelman was a Democrat who couldn't be beat by being called liberal, as are most of the successful Democratic pols in the state. God, the ad that probably won Folsom the election was that ad where he dressed up in hunting clothes and uttered the phrase "I'd rather be hunting than playing tennis at the Mountain Brook club"

They also don't like the fact that the only Republican Lt. Gov this state has ever had was emasculated on the Senate floor by Siegelman allies.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I would support putting James and Folsom in prison
And Guy Hunt should have been locked up long ago.

My point is that just because Siegelman may have followed a bunch of crooks - and he did - that doesn't excuse his crimes while in office.

I appreciate your reply - you obviously know Alabama politics. I just don't see Alabama as a target for the national powers-that-be in the Republican Party. Why do they care if our state legislature is majority Democrat? Alabama still votes Republican in national elections year in and year out. Some of us are working to change that, but it still seems like Rove and Company have much bigger fish to fry than Don Siegelman...

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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. How old are you Southlandshari?
When I was in high school in southern Alabama, a white woman claimed that a black man had raped her. A black man was arrested, but the woman could not positively identify him as her attacker (this was WAY before DNA). A mob of white men went into the jail before the black man could be released. The mob dragged the man from his jail cell on the second floor by his feet. The black man's head banged on the steps and left traces of blood. Then he was murdered.

My civics teacher brought up the incident as an example of what white men should do.

When I said that the black man may have been innocent, my teacher replied, "That's not the point. This incident will remind all black men that they should stay in their place."

The point of putting Siegelman in jail was to remind all white Democrats of their place.

Siegelman was very popular. He would have won the election against Riley except for the shenanigans in Baldwin County, one of the most racist/Republican in the state. Putting Siegelman in prison while doing nothing about Republicans who were accused of the same kinds of things by the main witness against Siegelman sent a powerful message.

Democrats will be treated the same way blacks used to be treated, no matter what their color. I certainly internalized that message and I think many other white Dems did as well.

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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Old enough to find your reply incredibly offensive
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 05:49 PM by southlandshari
I'm 38. And I am old enough to know that your suggestion that white Democrats in Alabama are now subject to the same treatment blacks received here and elsewhere in the Deep South in the not so distant past is not only ridiculous, it is an insult to every African American - regardless of political persuasion - who endured the cruelty of the Jim Crow era right on up through the civil rights movement.

Shame on you and your histrionics, Frances. I don't care how old you are. Even if Siegelman has been done wrong, your comparison between present-day white Democrats in Alabama and a black man wrongfully accused of rape and lynched without a trial is reprehensible.

I was interested in serious and respectful answers to an honest question here.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. And shame on you for your histrionics, that ain't what was suggested.
He suggested a motive, and provided an example of that motive at work, he made no assertion that the same conditions apply now. The suggestion was that it was done to warn and intimidate, to make an example, and if you don't believe that such things are still done, then you aren't paying attention.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The conditions faced by white Democrats in Alabama
are nothing like the conditions faced by black residents of this state during the time Frances cites.

Period.

To try to link the two in any way is histrionic at best.

I am paying attention. Are you?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And that still is not what he said. You apparently are NOT paying attention. nt
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. This is what was said....verbatim
The point of putting Siegelman in jail was to remind all white Democrats of their place.

Siegelman was very popular. He would have won the election against Riley except for the shenanigans in Baldwin County, one of the most racist/Republican in the state. Putting Siegelman in prison while doing nothing about Republicans who were accused of the same kinds of things by the main witness against Siegelman sent a powerful message.

Democrats will be treated the same way blacks used to be treated, no matter what their color. I certainly internalized that message and I think many other white Dems did as well.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Right, and that is NOT saying that conditions now are the same as back then.
It is saying that the intention of using threats and intimidation to keep people in their place is the same now as it was back then, and that is a correct statement.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Do you really believe that all white Democrats in Alabama
are now cowering in fear because Don Siegelman was found guilty of crimes he committed while in office?

Do you really believe that Siegelman was prosecuted as a way of sending white Alabama liberals like me a message to shut up like good little house niggars?

That the Republicans were so threatened by Don Siegelman, even though he had been in all kinds of legal trouble and couldn't even come close to winning an election among his own party members two years ago, that they threw the nastiest of their weapons - Karl Rove and his minions - his way?

:shrug:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Do you know the difference between intention and capability?
Nobody said that it worked. Bush's war in Iraq is a complete failure, does that mean he intended it to be a complete failure? The question was what did the Republicans intend by taking down Siegelman, not what they accomplished.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yes I do
And I disagree with most here on the issue of the intentions of Rove's involvement in Siegelman's case.

I do not believe that Rove intends to send anyone any sort of warning message.

I believe that Rove intends for Democrats to make a huge stink in defense of a guilty man.

And I believe that his mission is well on its way to being accomplished.

Bemildred, I am not interested in fighting with you or Frances or anyone else. I started swinging in this thread when I read what seemed to be a clearly condescending reply to my OP, and things have deteriorated in this subthread from there.

We don't have to agree, but I'd rather us be a little more agreeable than this.

Truce?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Ok, You can think what you like, and we can still be friends.
But I think Rove is 100% about threats and intimidation, and so is the Republican Party, so you know what I think. That is pretty much what politics is about, since they can't actually throw us all in jail (yet).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. So it's clear, I have no intention to be disrespectful of you.
And I hope we can be friends.
:hi:
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Absolutely
:hi:
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. I don't understand why you found my reply disrespectful
I don't think you read my post very carefully.

All I am saying is that white people murdered a possibly innocent black man to send a message that black people would be killed for no other reason than to "keep them in their place."

A very powerful Democratic governor was sent to prison to send a message that no matter how popular or powerful you have been, you can wind up in prison if you are in high office as a Democrat, even if you are white.

If you think I am saying that Siegelman suffered as much as black Alabamians, then you must think that going to prison is as bad as being murdered.

I didn't say that and I don't believe that.



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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 11:28 PM by southlandshari
And I'm sorry I lashed out at you with the comment about histrionics. I reacted badly to your question about my age and what I saw as an inference that I might be young and naive, particularly in the context of a discussion about Alabama politics and history, especially race relations in the Deep South, subjects that connect to the very core of who I am.

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terrell9584 Donating Member (549 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. i know it
cause i live here.

and as I said before, I think the answer may very well lie in events that occurred in 1999. The only word I will say here is "jug". No one would suspect anything like that, and there would be a very good reason to do it.

Rove began getting involved in politics here to break the legal system. That's what he is about, tort reform. First of all because he might actually believe in it, and also because plaintiffs attorneys are the only real source of money the party has. There is also the fact that Rove's wife lived in the state for some time and that there might be a personal reason that he targeted Siegelman, irrespective of any jug related issues.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Rove is the wonkiest.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 05:03 PM by sharesunited
I don't think he was necessarily obsessed with Siegelman. But can you see how it might be a point of personal pride for him to topple a Democratic governor of a red state?

The case against Rove seems to be pretty much double heresay at this point. It is much more likely that Bill Canary's wife is the key, and that Rove's politicization of the Justice Department just set the stage for the abuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Canary
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I just don't think he does things without a purpose
Look, Alabama has had a Democratic majority in our state legislature forever and a day. That doesn't change the state's overall conservative politics. Plenty of other "red states" have had Democratic governors for years without any sort of scandal like this. Which is why I ask the question in my OP.

Why Siegelman?

I agree with you about Leura Canary - I do think she is the key.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Because he could and to make the Democrats look bad......
in the face of all the Repuke corruption cases going on.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rove and co. had a Republican 70 year rule dream.
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 05:09 PM by mmonk
The purpose of politicizing everything including the Dept. of Justice was two fold I think. One was to keep the lid on any investigations concerning voter suppression and voter roll manipulation. The second was intimidation to any who want to challenge the new realities Rove promised he would create.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. "...an explanation other than the one I have drawn..."
What explanation have you drawn? I don't see an explanation, just questions.

"Why get involved with the prosecution of someone like Don Siegelman, when the evidence against him was already there?"

As I understand it, the evidence was cooked. I haven't followed the details that closely, but it was my impression the prosecutors broke rules and laws, tampered with a witness, violated Seigelman's rights, and altogether behaved like Bushbot assholes, in forcing this prosecution. Prosecution is always a discretionary matter. They can't prosecute all crimes, and the better prosecutors go after major crimes and criminals, and ones where the evidence is solid--where they're fairly sure of a crime and someone's guilt for it. That's good prosecutors. Bushbots are BAD prosecutors, with political motives. Eliot Spitzer is a good example. They were obviously fishing for something to get on him--and, lo and behold, found his use of prostitutes. No doubt in my mind that NSA spying was involved. That's ILLEGAL. In fact, that's a much, much bigger crime that Spitzer committed. It is a violation of the Constitution, and of the oaths of office of everyone involved.

No matter what petty corruption Seigelman was involved in (petty relative, say, to the BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of our tax dollars that Bush & co. have stolen), it doesn't justify cooking evidence against him--just to up their "score" of political hits on Democrats--which appears to me to be the motive. There is so much massive, unbelievable, epochal corruption in the Bush Junta, they needed to generate headlines about Democrats' corruption, no matter how small-time (relatively). Look at the months and years of headlines they got out of "Whitewater" against the Clintons--which turned out to be nothing. It's a P.R. game.

Another possibility: There is a war going on within the FBI (and DoJ) between the good guys and the bad guys. The good guys go after real scumbags, a-politically, along good prosecutor lines. The bad guys go after Democrats, on orders from Rove & co. The Seigelman prosecution was the bad guys' revenge for, say, Tom Delay or "Duke" Cunningham or "Scooter" Libby.

A third possibility: The Bush Junta recruits corrupt people for various offices and appointments, and uses their corruption to control them. Seigelman, though a Democrat, was "recruited" in some way--for some purpose--and they were using his petty corruption to blackmail him, on something they wanted him to do. He balked. He wouldn't knuckle under. So they prosecuted him, to punish him for not playing ball.

Our government, right now, is like the mafia, writ large--very large. It operates on the same principles. It is exceedingly corrupt, on a colossal scale. We really do need to face this, and not believe everything we read, and learn to read between the lines.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Sorry - I've posted my own explanation in several other threads
I should have stated it more clearly here, though.

I believe that Karl Rove has gotten involved in Don Siegelman's case - and has leaked word of his involvement - in hopes of getting Democrats to rally around the cause of an unworthy man.

I've rambled on about this ad nauseum elsewhere, but that's it in a nutshell. I think this is bait. A set-up. A trap. And I am dismayed to see so many people walking right into it.

:(
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Suppose for a moment you are correct. Democrats have always
stood for justice - right now it appears there has been an injustice committed in the way his trial was conducted. That in itself is reason to rally behind the man.

You call this a trap. How bad were the repercussions for republicans when they rallied around Scooter, Gonzo, Rove?

The answer is.....none.



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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Two wrongs don't make a right
Even I wince at that cliche, but I can't think of any better way to state my point.

Scooter Libby should have suffered far more serious consequences for his actions than he did. Several other Bush Administration officials, most notably Dick Cheney, belong in jail for treason, IMHO.

None of that changes the fact that there are also corrupt people who are members of the Democratic Party. And every time anyone tries to justify defending Don Siegelman by pointing out the worst among the Republican ranks, we lose a little more credibility and moral high ground.

:(
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. While one must admire your desire for all politicians to be "pure" -
the political process is corrupt - it is the nature of the beast and if we got rid of every politician who has done something "shady" - we would have a handful of people left.

We can try to clean it up, but at the most we'll make a dent. Even if the charges against him were valid, the fact that justice wasn't meted out to the other side for the same supposed "crimes", then he was unfairly targeted and punished.

I think we have far more claim to the moral high ground than the other side at this time. It's a constant struggle - but we are winning.

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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Being better than they are is nothing to write home about
The Bush Administration is the most corrupt this nation has seen in my lifetime. Perhaps the worst in history.

I don't see having more claim to moral high ground than they do as something to high five about. I would hope our bar is set much, much higher.

I understand that we may not make more than a dent in efforts to clean up the political system as we know it. But none of that is reason to relax our standards, IMHO.

Call me Pollyanna.

I've been called worse.

;)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
38. Yup, it's true that our government has become THAT Byzantine. I can't deny that.
It's been one of my own thoughts on our government/political establishment. But I think the thing you may not grasp is that the playing field is not level. In fact, it's tilted at a 90% angle to dump all ordinary Americans, and anyone who even comes close representing us (petty corruption or not) straight into a Grand Canyon-sized hole of fascism and ruination. We have to somehow push the playing field back up a few notches, so we all don't perish. And we don't do that by buying into Rove's treasonous games with Department of Justice.

Do you know why there is a very strong provision in the Constitution that forbids ANYONE in the Executive Branch including all police agencies, and ANYONE in the courts or associated enforcement agencies, from stopping ANY member of Congress from entering Congress on the peoples' business, no matter what that person may be accused of by the Executive or Judicial branches? It was to prevent the use of criminal prosecution as a political tool to harass the opposition--a common abuse of royal powers in Europe and England against members of parliament. And, in short, what it means is that the PEOPLE can elect, and the Executive cannot remove--for ANY reason--WHOEVER THE PEOPLE WANT TO REPRESENT THEM. A communist. A terrorist. A murderer. A thief. Anyone! Because those accusations are typical tools of an out-of-control Executive/King in DENYING the People their chosen representatives.

The vote of the people is SACRED. It trumps all petty laws and powers of the Executive. The people may elect whomever they wish. And, in terms of Congress--and its specific protection in the Constitution--there is only ONE entity that can override the will of the people, and that is Congress itself--by impeaching and removing one of its own members.

Neither can the President be removed--for ANY reason--except by impeachment and conviction in Congress. This, for instance, prevents an out-of-control prosecutor like Ken Starr from arresting and removing the President. The OFFICE of president, as with the office of member of Congress, is SACRED. Even if the President is investigated, prosecuted and convicted in a court, he or she CANNOT be touched, CANNOT be arrested, CANNOT be removed, except by impeachment.

I don't know the specifics of state laws, as to extending these principles to state systems: that is, the governor not being removable except by state legislators' impeaching and convicting the governor, and state legislators not being removable except by action of the state legislature, but, whatever the status of such laws, at the state level, the principle of the SACREDNESS of the vote of the People is similar and generally applicable. Police powers--whoever controls them--cannot be used to remove an elected official. Their election and swearing in are SACRED--because the People are SOVEREIGN here. Their elected officials can certainly be pressured to resign--as Eliot Spitzer was. THEN they can be arrested. I'm not sure what happened with Seigelman, but I can tell you what didn't happen: he was not arrested UNTIL he resigned (unless those events were even more irregular than I thought--a throwback to royalist Europe).

Both Spitzer and Seigelman COULD have held on, and fought impeachment battles in the state legislatures, and possibly could even have rallied public opinion to such a degree that the state legislatures refused to impeach. And, in that case, New York and Alabama would have had sitting governors--elected and empowered BY THE PEOPLE--who were felons. It doesn't matter. The People can elect felons! The People can choose to keep felons in office. Legislatures are elected bodies that represent THE PEOPLE. And if the legislature refuses to impeach someone, because public opinion won't allow it, that collective decision overrides any outside investigation, prosecution and conviction. Until the person no longer holds the elected, sworn-on-the-Bible, SACRED office granted to him or her by the SOVEREIGN voters.

Look back over American history, and you will see repeated instances of corruption of every kind in our political system. This is not new (--although the Bushite level of corruption is unprecedented, possibly in the history of the world). Democracy is a corrective to the capitalist economic system. It allows the People to regulate the robber barons, to gain protection for workers and the poor, to even things out. But, often enough in our history, corrupt political machines have arisen that have been beneficial to large numbers of people, at least for a time. Corruption is expected. It is endemic. Democracy, in fact, is a way both for good public servants to arise from the People, and for the poor--the immigrants, people from the underclass--to rise to levels of power that bring riches, and to get rich. We have seen this time and again, and it has never been clean. We saw it in Tamany Hall (the Irish immigrants' political machine). We see it now in the Indian casinos (another excluded group, now making money). We've seen it in the trade unions. Almost every immigrant or lower-class/excluded group has gone through this process. Corruption. Corrupt political machines. Pay-off's. Bribes. Dirty deals. Rigged contracts. 'You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.' It's as American as apple pie. When the corruption becomes too awful--there is sometimes a cleansing. We've gone through periods of political puritanism--when a vicuna coat was a big scandal (the Eisenhower/Kennedy era)--and through periods in which considerable corruption is tolerated. And it is totally crazy, in a period as corrupt as this one, to expect that our political representatives are going to be saints, are going to be Mother Theresa, are going to be chaste, sinless, pure and voluntarily poor, with empty bank accounts!

Who should be prosecuted? Who should be held to the 'Mother Theresa' standard? Donald Seigelman (if he's dirty)? Or Dick Cheney, who, if the truth were known, has stolen billions? Not petty corruption. Massive corruption, into the pockets of his global corporate predator pals.

And who is being prosecuted? Certainly not Dick Cheney, Exxon Mobil, Halliburton, Blackwater! They're going scot free. While those war criminals have the nerve, have the arrogance, have the audacity to use their puppets in the Department of so-called Justice to ruin Democratic office-holders, whose crimes are nothing compared to what they've done.

It may be that the Bushites CHOSE Seigelman, and Diebolded him into office, because he was corrupt or corruptible. We don't know that, but it's possible. Things are that Byzantine, yes. But do we then play their game, and pillory Democrats? Their game is to end up with all the power, in control of all the levers of government, with nazi powers over the rest of us. To enslave us. To use us for cannon fodder. We can't let them use the Seigelmans in our party, and selectively prosecute them for political reasons, in order to destroy every little bit of people power we have left.

I certainly don't support corruption of any kind. But neither am I naive. We are suffering a fascist junta. We cannot allow ourselves to get played by them, in this way--to get twisted up in their evil logic, whereby these filthy rotten traitors--Rove, Bush, Cheney and their Bushbots in the DoJ--can parade as VIRTUOUS, as LAWFUL, as POLITICAL PURITANS, and go after petty corruption in Democratic office holders, using cooked evidence and illegal spying. It is mind-boggling. And, if need be, yes, we must assert our right--the right of the Sovereign People--to elect whomever we wish to office, whoever serves OUR interests, no matter what the Bushbots claim they have done. Until we have restored our democracy--and have taken back control of our vote counting system, and our public airwaves, and our regulatory and oversight systems, and our justice system--we cannot know what is true and what is not true. And we must not let them continue to control what happens while the truth cannot be known. We must do the surprising thing--not believe them, no matter what they say. No matter who they accuse.

That is my stance on Seigelman. We don't know. We can't know. And whatever he may have done, it is nothing compared to the crimes of those who put him in jail--not to mention the fact that they did it with a crooked prosecution.



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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. One possible reason was proposed
in another DU thread

The link to the original article is here:
ExxonMobil’s Alabama Paydirt

Also, a federal judge in the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals is of the opinion that there are good reasons to re-examine the case, link here if you're interested.

I'm not worried about the Democratic party in this case... far from it. And the Republicans can take care of themselves, or fall into the trap they have built for themselves :grr:
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. This is the best reason
I've read so far.

Big Oil having to pay back revenues of up to 3 BIl to Alabama would be a good reason to want to take him out.

Big Oil has gotten its way in this country for far too long. We all know this. It's time they got bitten in the ass and we made it stick, regardless of how much a crook Siegleman himself may or may not be.

If there's an even better reason, I'd like to hear it too.
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southlandshari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Thanks for the links
I will definitely read the threads and article you linked here.

I appreciate your reply.

:)
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