Importing workers in the National Parks and Michael Parenti's concept of third-worldization of U.S.

[Kitty Herder]

I worked in the lodge in Zion National Park for several seasons. The last season I worked there, there were more people working there from Poland, Czechoslavakia, and Thailand than from the U.S. The H.R. people go on tours recruiting foreign nationals who barely speak any english.

This has become the norm for the concessionaires in the National Parks (who are federal contractors). This has the lovely (for the employers) effect of flooding the labor market, depressing wages, and letting them off the hook for providing benefits.(These foreign workers' contracts are seldom for more than three months, the amount of time required before an employee becomes eligible for health care.) In saving money for the concessionaires, this also decreases the cost of the contract for the federal govt.

This also decreases the number of summer jobs available for American students. Why should we give priority to providing summer jobs for foreigners? (I have nothing against the Thais, the Czechs, Poles or any other group being hired to work in our parks. It's not their fault and they're fine people.) Also, Zion Lodge used to work with a homeless shelter in Las Vegas, offering jobs to homeless folks. That didn't always work out, but I know several people who got back on their feet and were essentially rehabilitated through this practice. Now, instead of giving a hand-up to the needy, they give summer jobs to middle and upper-middle class foreign students and don't have job openings for those who really need a job.

I recently spoke to a friend who works in the Human Resources department for Zion and he told me he has a master plan, whereby they would never have to hire anyone but Asians. That bothered me. At least he's a low level employee in H.R. and won't be able to enact his plan. But it bugged me.

I don't want you all to think I'm bigoted. I'm not.I just don't like this practice of intentionally flooding labor markets to depress wages.

From my point of view, it was interesting to get to know people from other cultures, but it also completely destroyed the mini-culture of the lodge. Each nationality stuck to themselves which cleaved apart the formerly close, family-like social relations of a workplace which was also a home.

I know the travel and tourism industry isn't the only industry going through this. The software industry has been hit particularly hard by similar practices.

I see this as part of the third-worldization of America that Michael Parenti talks about. Lowering the wages of American workers, providing fewer jobs for Americans, and taking away much of what little power labor has in negotiating with management and owners, making the U.S. into a banana republic.

What do you all think?

[BobRossi]

1. Hire Americans first.

Time to re-enact the CCC.

[Kitty Herder]

2. Yes. We need another FDR. And a return to some degree of protectionism. nt

[Kitty Herder]

3. Another thing we need is more and stronger labor unions. And the repeal of

Taft-Hartley.

[Xithras]

4. Actually, there's a very different reason why they do it.

Delaware North, the company that runs concessions in Yosemite, does it to better serve their clientele. Some of the largest American national parks, like Yosemite, Zion, and Yellowstone, attract tourists from around the world. By hiring employees from around the world, it improves the odds that they'll have someone on staff who can speak a foreign tourists language if they run into trouble at the park. Visitors are also more comfortable if they see employees who speak their own language, and helps them to feel less out of place.

Think about it. If they were just interested in having cheap workers, they'd be hiring people at minimum wage from Mexico and Central America. They wouldn't be flying people in from the Czech Republic, Thailand, and Poland.

By the way, Americans still make up the majority of the working staff in most parks, and anyone can apply. Where I live, it's not uncommon for local college students to spend a summer working in Yosemite between semesters (I live about 90 minutes from the park...on weekdays). DN does reserve a big chunk of their hiring for foreign workers, but they don't exclude Americans, and they do NOT do it to hire "cheaper" foreigners.

[arendt]

5. Humbug. I went to a swanky resort on Cape Cod. The staff were all Eastern European...

Its not about guests "running into someone who speaks their own language".

Its about being cheap. The Russians lived ten to a house. Even a college student couldn't compete with how little these people would accept for pay.

Plus, the service sucked. I did not enjoy getting a drink from a blunt Russian woman tending bar who asked "What want?" This was supposed to be an enjoyable experience. I won't be going back there.

Cape Cod is whiter-skinned (and bluer-haired) than just about any place I can think of. Its not like it was a bargain resort. No excuse for a bunch of immigrants working. Your argument is nothing more than apologetics for driving wages down.

arendt

[Kitty Herder]

8. Couldn't have said it better myself. The guests would get very frustrated

trying to communicate with waiters, desk clerks, and cashiers who spoke poor English.

Hell, we even had a Polish girl answering the switchboard for a while when I was there. That was a nightmare.

And yeah, these kids don't mind the shitty housing and horrible food, so there is no incentive for the employers to improve conditions. Or, at least if they did mind they never said anything about it.

[redqueen]

21. Have you been taking a break?

Or have I been missing your posts?

Either way... I'm glad to be seeing them again. :)

[arendt]

30. Maybe a few days; but nothing extended.

Its just that a lot of my stuff sinks really fast, unless I keep it kicked.

Having sworn off GD-P, I tend to post in GD, where stuff falls fastest of all.

If you feel you missed stuff, I put every substantive essay into my journal.

regards,

arendt

[Xithras]

32. Never been east of the Mississippi, so I can't comment on Cape Cod.

I just speak to what I see and hear out here on the left coast.

And yes, the jobs do require sacrifices. Even in Yosemite, workers must live in tent cabins without A/C or insulation, with shared showers, and only minimal amenities. That's the cost of living in a national park.

As for the pay, most of these jobs are and have always been minimum wage, even when it was the "good, white, middle class" kids doing them all. For the most part, you're talking about jobs that have all the complexity of working a register at McDonalds.

[Kitty Herder]

6. If they were interested in better serving their clientele, they would be hiring

French, German and Japanese employees. That's who visits the parks the most. I never saw Czech, Polish or Thai visitors.

It's not that they can pay these kids less, they can't. It's that it floods the labor market, which makes it easier for them to keep wages down. If they have not only American students clamoring for jobs, but also Asian and European ones, they're hardly desperate for workers, so they don't have to raise their wages as an incentive to attract employees.

[Xithras]

33. Ahem. Sorry to break it to you, but this is a failing of the U.S. educational system.

Lots of Poles and Czech also speak French and German. Multilingual education is the norm in Europe. It's the exception in the U.S. nowadays. As for the Thai, the bulk of tourism in Thailand is driven by JAPANESE tourists. Experienced Thai workers in the leisure businesses often know enough Japanese to communicate with them. I can count on one hand the number of middle class Americans I've met who can speak the language.

[Kitty Herder]

38. Listen, I've been there. When I was there, the poor English from these kids was

more of a problem than any proficiency in a foreign language may have been a benefit. Americans still make up the majority of visitors to the National Parks, believe it or not. Even if they don't make up the majority of the workers.

When I worked there, I only knew one Polish girl who spoke multiple languages. The rest (of any nationality) were hardly proficient in French, German, Japanese or even English. If you honestly think they hire these kids for their foreign language skills, well, all I can say is you didn't work alongside them. Except for Marta, they weren't speaking anything but poor English with the visitors from other countries.

And, as I mentioned, before, I only brought this up after a conversation with a friend who still works in Zion's H.R. According to him, the reason they hire them is because the don't make demands, and it provides a labor glut.

[Kitty Herder]

39. And I have to add: About the Thais, not only were the ones I worked with

not proficient in Japanese, I only met two of them with whom I could communicate effectively in English. Nothing against the Thais. They have got to be the kindest, friendliest, hardest working people in the world. I would love to visit Thailand some day because I absolutely love the people.

But, just from my experience, I don't think they're learning a great deal of English in their schools and if those who work in the tourism industry at home have learned some Japanese, those were not the ones who came to work here. These were college students coming to work in the U. S. for a summer. I don't think those in the tourist industry could have afforded the airfare to get here. (No, the park concessionaires don't pay for travel expenses.)

[Xithras]

41. The problem is, your premise doesn't make sense.

If the decision was purely economic these companies would simply be hiring the cheapest, most hard working, and most available workers they could locate. In the U.S., that pretty much means Mexicans and Central Americans. Many have a demonstrated willingness to work in harsh conditions for crap wages, and they would jump at the chance for an hourly job in a beautiful location like a national park.

Which begs the question. If it's PURELY an economic consideration, why do these companies spend so much money sending recruiters overseas to find workers? Why wouldn't they simply utilize the cheap labor that's already here?

[Kitty Herder]

44. I don't think you're understanding. They aren't paying these foreigners any less than

they pay their American counterparts. They're just supplying a labor glut, which changes the supply/demand aspect of prevailing wages in a given industry, driving the wages down for EVERYONE. I think you missed my point entirely.

Also, if you are referring to undocumented workers from Mexico and Central America (those are the only ones they could get away with paying less than they pay the Americans that do the same job), they obviously can't do that, because they are tightly regulated by the federal government. Park Service is there every single day.

And, considering Americans' unfortunate prejudices, hiring Latinos would cause an outcry that hiring eastern Europeans and Asians does not.

[Kitty Herder]

47. Post moved. Put it in the wrong place. Sorry. nt

[Xithras]

40. Americans may be the majority, but foreigners spend more money.

Tourist buses, cabins, hotel rooms, flights, etc. Most American visits to national parks involve a tent and as little money as possible. The businesses are obviously going to cater to those who spend the most money.

As for them making demands, there is a grain of truth there, but that's a failing of Americans. There's nothing wrong with sleeping in dorms or tent cabins, but Americans still complain about it incessantly. Since there isn't much these companies can do to improve those conditions, it's understandable that they might be reluctant to hire people with a propensity to whine a lot. In Yosemite, for example, DN is not allowed to build ANYTHING...workers sleep in tent cabins because there is literally nowhere else to put them. The Sierra Club had the park service tied up in lawsuits for nearly a decade because the park wanted to replace a leaky old sewer line, and they've been successfully fighting them for years over a plan that would actually reduce smog, gridlock, and the number of roads in the park. They'd have a field day if the park service actually proposed building housing...it would be in court for the next 20 years! This isn't a slam on the Sierra Club. I'm an SC member and support the suits, but the park is really bent over a barrel when it comes to dealing with these problems.

[Kitty Herder]

43. It would be interesting to see a study about who actually does spend more money

in the parks, Americans or foreigners. Personally, I saw, on average, two overnight bus tours of Americans each night. Tauck Tours came in every single night, with a bus full of New Yorkers, all paying for rooms, dinners and breakfasts. Most nights we had at least one other tour bus full of Americans. We usually saw about three Japanese tour buses come in for lunch a week. Just for lunch, mind you. Not overnight.

As a desk clerk, I probably checked in at least ten Americans for every foreigner. The same ratio applied when I worked as a waitress.

But that's just my experience.

And apparently you missed my point about the fact that the foreign kids that I worked with didn't speak multiple languages.

I understand what you mean about the parks being over a barrel with housing. A compromise must be reached. It's not right for workers to be living in such abhorrent conditions. I spent one summer working at Jackson Lake Lodge in Grand Teton National Park and the living conditions there had to have been against some kind of code. People were literally packed in like sardines, four people in a room made to be a tight fit for two.

At the same time, the park must be protected. Both sides need to be willing to be reasonable. I usually support the Sierra Club, but I believe they were wrong to stop the park service from fixing a leaky sewer line. A leaky sewer line can do more damage environmentally than fixing it.

[cap]

26. Eastern Europeans and Thais are cheap

If they were "internationalizing the parks to serve the international clientele", they would be hiring Western Europeans and Japanese.

[Kitty Herder]

28. The Western Europeans won't work for the shitty wages or live in the

cramped conditions and eat the horrible food.

[Xithras]

34. See #33

You don't need to hire a person from Japan to communicate with the Japanese. You simply need to hire someone from an area with a high density of Japanese tourists. Thailand has been a popular Japanese "budget" travel destination for a very long time.

[bbgrunt]

31. it is about breaking the middle class. Really, do

you think that the national parks are there for international tourists? Hell, foreigners don't even want to come to the US any more for fear of hassles and being deemed a terrorist. If your premise was true, then they could just give preference to college students who were foreign language majors.

[Xithras]

36. LOL! How xenophobic of you.

First, yes, they are there for international tourists. We had many of our parks named World Heritage Sites by the U.N. for that very reason. International tourism pumps hundreds of millions of dollars into the California economy every year.

Second, your assumption that foreign tourists don't come here anymore is so far off base it's laughable. There is a small documented drop in the number of tourists overall, but a visit to Yosemite, Yellowstone, or even DISNEYLAND will demonstrate that a HUGE portion of the visitors are still from outside of the U.S. The last time I was on top of Half Dome, I easily heard 10 different languages spoken. Keep in mind that while the new security restrictions are a problem for some visitors, the declining dollar has made U.S. vacations much cheaper for Europeans and Asians. Their money goes much further here than it does in many other parts of the world.

As to the last bit. There aren't many foreign language majors who are willing to work bottom-rung retail jobs and live in tents and dorms for a summer. There ARE some, but not enough to staff the parks. Here in California, fluent knowledge of a language other than English and Spanish is a golden ticket to any entry level job in most major tourist spots (Everyone speaks English, and Spanish it too common to have any value to employers).

[bbgrunt]

49. well, thanks for updating my information. However, it

seems that you have nailed at least one very cogent fact: "there aren't many foreign language majors who are willing to work bottomrung retail jobs and live in tents and dorms for a summer". If there is such a demand for foreign language skills in these jobs it would seem that it would be ideal training and experience for them--not simply a retail job. Secondly, the availability of labor in unappealing jobs is a function of the price paid for those jobs. In order to entice people to do those less desireable jobs, one must either pay more, or find some other cheap source of labor that can be exploited because of their situation--such as non citizens looking for work. The excuse that Americans aren't WILLing to do certain jobs is simply a smokescreen for wanting to pay below market wages.

[XemaSab]

42. Why not hire Germans, Russians, Japanese, and Chinese?

'Cause I've been to Yosemite and that's who's up there.

Especially ONE of those groups. In large tour buses. 8 buses at a time. :hide:

[Kitty Herder]

45. They do hire Russians.

They can't get Germans or Japanese people. They won't do it. And they are recently starting to hire Chinese people.

[treestar]

7. It might be an exchange

At that age, they might be here on an exchange program, and just as many Americans are abroad doing the same thing.

The U.S. is not the only place on the planet. Every foreigner working here is not automatically displacing some poor pathetic U.S. worker. We are the strongest country in the world (though now in debt thanks to *) so it gets weird seeing all this self pity that everyone else on the planet has it better.

Our problems are not due to a few college kids on exchange programs. They are due to the war * started.

[arendt]

9. Why do you make up excuses? The Park Service has effectively been privatized...

and they are doing what every other corporation in America is doing: outsourcing.

I can't believe how naive people are about this. Do you not understand that our Executive Branch and all its agencies have been staffed with crooks, cronies, and ideologues?

arendt

[Kitty Herder]

11. Thank you. nt

[treestar]

12. What has that got to do with some college age kids working in a national

park? Why would the crooks, cronies and idealogues hire foreigners instead of their own nephews and sons and daughters of friends, like they usually do?

This country has bigger problems. Like the huge debt caused by *s war.

Did somebody get a job you wanted?

[Kitty Herder]

13. Oh, for pity sake. Of course, we have bigger problems.

This is just part of a larger system completely screwing up our economy. Look at the software engineers put out of work by workers with H1-B visas.

It was on my mind after talking to my old friend in H.R. with his master plan to hire no one but Asians. So I thought I'd get some of your thoughts on it.

Are we never allowed to discuss anything on this forum aside from the war?

Yes, the war is huge, horrible and must be ended. But there are other things going on in the world, too.

[Kitty Herder]

16. Here's an example of a HUGE, pressing problem being posted about on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3090900

(No offense to the poster of that topic. Just making a point.)

[SharonAnn]

35. Because these are low-paid jobs. Their kids work for the government, not a contractor.

Their kids have a high-paying job with the government, with health benefits and all that.

These are McJobs, or worse, and these jobs aren't for people like "their kids".

[Romulox]

15. Occam's razor: the poster is a "cheap labor" Democrat. nt

[Kitty Herder]

19. What is a "cheap labor" Democrat? Please excuse my ignorance. nt

[Romulox]

22. A "new Democrat"; a "progressive" who supports free trade, H1B visas,

deregulation, "right to work", etc. etc; a Clintonian, DLC Democrat.

[Kitty Herder]

24. Ah. I see. Thanks for explaining. As far as I'm concerned, DLC Democrats are not Democrats. nt

[usrbs]

37. Please refrain from gratuitous slurs about Clinton supporters

I come to GD to learn things and escape from the GDP.

For the record I'm probably as far to the Left as you.

It's not as if this race is anything other than one centrist running against another centrist.

[Romulox]

50. If the shoe fits...

And it's no defense to say, but Hillary is ALSO for NAFTA and "free trade"--when Obama supports both too.

Neither Obama or Clinton are friends to the American worker, as best I can tell.

[Kitty Herder]

25. Also, I don't think that particular poster got the point. nt

[Kitty Herder]

10. It's not an exchange program. At least with what I'm talking about, there

are no corresponding Americans going overseas to work as part of this program.

[treestar]

14. Somewhere, there are

Most likely.

Seeing a few Czech kids working somewhere does not constitute the third worldization of America.

Sometimes I wonder why foreigners who are here are to blame for everything. Are they the ones who elected *? I guess they falsified their statuses and voted in Florida too.

In reality, the fallout from 911 has meant that fewer foreigners are here. Fewer visitors, fewer students (and there would be Americans who worked and made money because those students and tourists from abroad were here, and now don't).

I know of at least 8 American college students who spent at least a semester in Europe, or South America, or Australia. None of them related how their presence in those countries ruined those countries in the eyes of those inhabitants.

Why scapegoat them when * and Cheney are to blame? They're just kids, for heaven's sake, traveling the world to get experiences and learn. There are even American students who do that.

[Kitty Herder]

18. I'm not scapegoating the foreigners. Can't you read?

It is NOT their fault. I said that before. It's the fault of the employers. Not the employees.

I'm just telling you about my experience. If you don't care about it, stop responding to it.

[Kitty Herder]

20. And it's not a few, it's hundreds. nt

[Romulox]

23. I couldn't afford to spend a semester in Europe. Why should I compete with third world wages? nt

[Zorra]

17. We need to place a 5 year moratorium on immigration and hiring foreign workers.

American citizens are finding it more and more difficult to find work, wages are depressed, and the price of everything is skyrocketing.

We simply can't afford more competition in a labor market already flooded with foreign workers.

[readmoreoften]

27. No more security fences. We need less fences not more and a global national strike.

If global capital has no borders why do its workers have borders? My problem isn't furriners taking my jobs, it's that other nations won't let me in. The only thing that will work is a global national strike. Then wages go up across the board. Prices too, but hopefully we'll learn something about consuming less.

[Kitty Herder]

29. Interesting idea. I agree with you that if wages and conditions went up across the board,

there wouldn't be a problem. It would be wonderful if people working in Chinese sweatshops, for example, had the same minimum wage, 40-hour work week and other labor standards that we have here in the U.S.

But how on earth would we ever pull off a global strike?

[earth mom]

46. I think it's awful. I hate how employers & corporations are being allowed to drive down wages

like they have while politicians ignore it and continue to lie their a$$es off 24/7!

This country has steadily gone downhill for the last 30 years (at least), but shh we aren't supposed to mention that this is happening in the tourist industry, and shh don't talk about how illegal immigrants have flooded the market in cheap labor all over the country! Because it's not "P.C." to talk about any of it!!! Meanwhile people are losing their homes and now living in tents, but make sure you are "P.C." and don't talk about this crap that is causing the disappearance of the middle and working class!

Gawd, I am so sick of it all! :argh:

[Kitty Herder]

48. I think some have misunderstood me.

First, this is not so much about this specific case, but about a much larger picture of which this is just one, small part. And I'm not saying that these foreign workers are paid less than their American counterparts, just that the labor glut caused by actively importing laborers from overseas creates downward pressure on wages in the industry in which it occurs. This is about American corporations doing everything they can to screw labor and increase their profits. This is about hiring policies that create a flood of available laborers which in turn depresses wages and benefits and eliminates much of the power that labor has in dealing with management and owners. There are many ways in which this is accomplished. I'm just talking about one with which I am familiar and with which I had a recent reminder in the form of a conversation with a friend in the H.R. department of Zion N.P.

"The conservative goal has been the "Third Worldization" of the United States:
an increasingly underemployed, lower-wage work-force; a small but growing moneyed class that pays almost no taxes; the privatization or elimination of human services; the elimination of public education for low-income people; the easing of restrictions against child labor; the exporting of industries and jobs to low-wage, free-trade countries; the breaking of labor unions; and the elimination of occupational safety and environmental controls and regulations." -Michael Parenti

I have nothing at all against foreign workers or immigrants. None of this is their fault. I would love to see a world where trade is not only free, but fair. Where all the workers of the world are paid fairly, get decent benefits, and work under decent conditions. Where American workers can work in Thailand for good wages, while their Thai counterparts can work here for good wages and nobody's wages or benefits are driven down as the result. But that is not what we have. Not even close. And American companies take advantage of inequality among the workers of the world in every way they possibly can.