We’re all the “Good Germans” now

[Cyrano]

I had always wondered why the German people stood by and did nothing while the Nazis performed some of histories most unspeakable crimes. I’ve stopped wondering. Now I know.

From the day the Nazis came to power, the German people lost all say regarding anything their government did. And from the day our current criminals seized America’s reins of power, we lost all say in anything that was done in our name.

The average German could no more stop the Nazi’s crimes against humanity than we can stop the Cheney/Bush crimes against humanity. You might say that, “We don’t have any concentration camps,” to which my answer is, not yet. (Then again, what would you call Gitmo, Abu Gahrab and all the other torture chambers whose names we don't know?)

I’ve watched Bush give speeches at American Legion halls where many of the old men sitting there smiling were those who helped defeat the Nazis. They are totally oblivious to the fact that the majority of the world views the U.S. as the current day menace. We are despised throughout the world. And IMO the main reason the civilized countries of the world aren’t doing anything about it is because we have a nuclear arsenal and criminals with their fingers on the button who wouldn’t hesitate to use it.

I think it will be a long, long time for our country to regain the moral authority it once held, or to be looked upon as “the beacon of freedom.” We all know what has taken place over the past eight years in our name. But the truth is there isn’t one damn thing we could do about it. So we might as well get used to the fact that we will probably be universally hated on this planet for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps the one thing we can do to mitigate this is to hold Cheney/Bush and their minions responsible once they are out of power. We must either send them all to The Hague, or hold our own version of the Nuremberg trials.

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I agree, the one way we could restore our honor

would be to very publicly prosecute these bastards. The world needs to know that most thinking citizens of this country never condoned the despicable acts that were carried out in our name.

[TahitiNut]

7. Yup. The one and only way.

We're a nation of cowards and outlaws - without honor and without integrity - unless and until the war criminals in the White House and Pentagon are prosecuted and imprisoned for their crimes against humanity in our name.

[bdamomma]

31. other than being a nation of cowards we have no backbone either

sorry for being so blunt, but we have been BS'ed by these thugs, and insulted by their stunning arrogance.

[marias23]

79. This needed to be said and its time to take on Reaganomics...

...which has taken away good government.

[Bluenorthwest]

146. the Democrat who promises to bring justice

to these criminals will get my vote. They both want to make nice, Obama seems to want to send out engraved 'you are safe' cards to the GOP as he enters office and that pisses me off. Let me be clear, any person who could allow these bastards to go unprosecuted and yet would allow marijuana 'offenders' and other victimless 'criminals' to rot in jail is not worthy of an ounce of support, or of the status of human being, much less President.
And that is why I keep expecting one of the Senators to do something in the Seante that is worthwhile. They have not. They have done nothing but fund and forgive and support. Obama voted to extend the Patriot Act, so 'change'? What does that mean? Also says he'll keep Blackwater Hired Killers on our payroll too. Those who are boosters of the current choices are Good Gremans for sure. Question them and ask them to seek justice instead of fawning like a subject, speak like a citzen. Obama voters, know that your button says 'change' but it means 'I support the Patriot Act, I support Cheney's Energy Bill and I support Blackwater'. Some of us are not blind. Those are his votes and positions, and to back him means to support all of those things, to back Obama unquestioninly and with vigor means you are working to retain Blackwater, for he will only rid us of them if we make him, he thinks they need 'just a couple of rules' because of course, they are good 'christians' at Blackwater.
A candidate who refuses prosecution is of no use to us. Period. No use. Deserving of nothing but our contempt.

[earth mom]

150. Anyone who is paying attention can see that Obama is playing both sides.

Many of Obama's supporters are former rethuglicans-which is evident here on DU by the viscous Hillary hate that many Obama nuts spew.

People are delusional if they think Obama will change a damn thing. Every time I see that "change candidate" crap, I LMAO! Change my ass! :puke:

The ONLY candidate who was willing to kick a$$ and make the changes needed was Edwards. And they silenced him but good didn't they?! :grr:

[Solly Mack]

28. I agree.

People hanging their hopes on an election to restore even a modicum of honor, without holding the war criminals accountable, are clinging to delusions.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

90. and yet we have the audacity to tell China

I don't agree with China is doing but the USA has no room to talk on human rights

[Blashyrkh]

95. Too bad the thinking citizens are so heavily outnumbered.

[gateley]

2. Read Naomi Wolf.

She speaks of how the German people were unaware of what was taking place behind the scenes. They still had jobs, went out to dinner, to the theater, etc., and little by little their rights were taken away for the "good of the country". It got to the point where neighbors were afraid NOT to report on each other, because the Nazis had convinced them that They Knew Everything Everybody Said And Did. This worked even though the government didn't REALLY have access to all their communications, etc., but people believed they did. Now, our government DOES have access to it all.

We're not quite at the same point -- yet -- but we're heading there fast, I fear.

[mmonk]

33. Better yet, help the organization she is a co-founder of.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3098356

We have to turn everything back to constitutional frameworks and the rule of law.

[gateley]

40. Already a "member". Thanks for the link --

hope others look into it as well.

[mmonk]

43. That's my hope as well.

We have to be the difference makers.

[defendandprotect]

68. The question is, the line of continuance . . . is the public awake enough

to stop and aright this ship of state?

[defendandprotect]

69. PS: Considering that the Repugs have been stealing elections with computers

since the mid-1960's . . . !!!

After the coup on JFK they weren't taking any chances with some "steenkin' elctions" --- !!!

Let me assure you that there are people who still don't understand/know the implications of

computer voting!!!

[TheWatcher]

125. Unfortunately they are not.

Personal observations I have made indicate the public is doing anything it can to ignore what is going on around them, similar to the "Superior Indifference" of the Germans in the 30's. many are way too caught up in the mindless culture of TV and Sports, Shopping, and any other imaginable avenue of escapism to allow themselves to even think about anything else.

In other instances, I think many are too busy struggling just to keep their OWN ship aright economically, paying the bills and keeping the food on the table to pay attention to affairs outside of that.

And still in others, many are clinging to the hope that one of the current Democratic Candidates will come in after November, and cause change, justice, and prosperity to seep across the nation like a Tidal Wave, and make us forget about the past seven years as if they never occurred. Many really DO think it is that simple, or they desperately want to believe so.

There is a contingent of the public which is anywhere from aware to completely awake to everything that is really going on, but I think many of them feel helpless to do anything, completely frustrated with the NeverNever Land mentality around them.

We are in THE most dangerous time of our nations history.

Our country as we knew it, or thought we did, like a poster below said, is gone.

The question that remains is if we can do anything to stop the slide into total tyranny, and maybe somehow regain the power of We the People, and force the laws of the land and the Constitution to be upheld and enforced.

I do not want to believe it is too late, but two things are for certain. The Criminal Government has no intentions on reversing it's current course. And We The People do not seem to be ready to stop them in their tracks.

Our intentions for the most part may be true, but most do not understand the magnitude of the problem.

[Karenina]

167. BINGO! BIGTIME!!!

[Horse with no Name]

105. On the front page of our local newspaper

showed that the city-contracted GARBAGEMEN were going to be the new "eyes and ears" of town--reporting directly to law-enforcement officials.
So...you tell me if you want the "eyes and ears of town" going through YOUR garbage?

[LaurenG]

3. in regard to

..."it will be a long, long time for our country to regain the moral authority it once held, or to be looked upon as “the beacon of freedom.”


It will depend on who we choose as a president to address the rest of the world. Will we continue to pretend we know what's best for everyone on the planet while raping the natural resources as we scream "mine". Will we bully and torture others while screaming "national security", "homeland security, "danger" "danger," "danger". Are Americans smart enough and brave enough to embrace the changes necessary to right our pig headed direction?

If not I think our new national anthem will be "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran" sung out of tune and loudly by our next president.

[enid602]

4. too soon to tell

I agree with most of your post, but am not yet ready to say that we're heading into another 1000 year Reich. If Iran has been left unscathed on 1/21/09, I'd say the danger has passed; provided, however the incoming administration can put our institutions back together. Including the press. I don't think we realize what a herculean task that will be, and in a time of economic downturn to boot.

[nichomachus]

5. Always worth re-reading

They thought they were free

By Milton Mayer

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’"

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

But Bush will never be brought to account. He was a tool of the corporatocracy and of those who run our country -- and the world -- from behind the scenes. They will protect him.

[gateley]

16. Never read it - but I will now. Thanks!

(I'm depressed already).

[kath]

There's a lengthier excerpt from Mayer's *excellent* book at this DailyKos diary:

titled "Slouching Toward Kristallnacht":
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/20/12819/467

includes these paragraphs (and more):

You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.

[treestar]

166. That last paragraph describes a life very similar to the ones we

lead. They in fact do keep us busy and distracted with many "crises." Everything is a "crisis."

[msongs]

6. the average german SUPPORTED the nazi attrocities nt

[Cyrano]

8. Read post #5 above.

[nichomachus]

9. Just as the average American

Just as the average American will support atrocities against Mexicans and other immigrants as soon as the economy really hits the skids.

We're already seeing the Mexicans being set up as "stealing" American's jobs. When the real unemployment rate hits about 25 percent and former white collar workers and former factory workers are vying for the jobs now done by Mexicans -- working in restaurant kitchens picking crops in the 110-degree sun -- they will be able to blame the Mexicans for "stealing their jobs."

The groundwork is being laid -- just as the Germans spent the '20s and the '30s convincing the German people that the Jews were responsible for all their economic problems.

[truedelphi]

12. It is just as possible that it will be the new immigrants who

Throw our sorry butts in the concentration camps should we speak out as the other way around.

[gateley]

17. Excellent comparison! nt

[treestar]

164. Exactly. The right wing gets Joe Average to scapegoat the

illegal immigrants (illegal by our national choice not to grant work visas) rather than blame those who are actually responsible - * and Cheney and the other criminals who live in mansions. Their divide and conquer strategy is so amazingly successful.

[OwnedByFerrets]

10. In the end....

what is the difference between "supported" and "allowed". Nothing to the dead and imprisoned. And little the the historians.

[Echo In Light]

11. Silence = consent

[New Dawn]

13. The Left, of course, opposed Hitler

They just weren't strong enough to overthrow him. So lets not forget all of the German Communists and trade-unionists that were murdered by the Hitlerite regime. They were some of the first to be killed.

[FightTheRight89]

49. No they didn't.

Having three grandparents who grew up in Nazi Germany, I know for a fact that statement is totally erroneous.

[Horse with no Name]

106. I think you are wrong about your history. n/t

[Hobarticus]

122. And that would be ridiculously false....

Google's your friend....

Good place to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Resistance

[Orwellian_Ghost]

14. Silence kills

[bdamomma]

32. that is why we should never be ashamed to speak out.

against these thugs.

[lonestarnot]

61. Yes it does!

[superkia]

15. I think we are in this situation and will continue to be in this same...

situation until we open our eyes. I see too many posts to count on how bush, cheney or the republicans are evil and our problem...WRONG! Our problem is that too many people believe that and ignore the fact that this is not a group of corrupt people or just one corrupt party, these crimes and the attack on our own rights is possible because it is our system as a whole that is corrupt. I do believe that there are some out there like the Dennis Kucinich's that are good and speak the truth but most are bought and paid for.

If we continue to play THEIR game and think that the democrats are only soft, weak or have no spines versus actually being lock step with them, we will fail.

I see people around DU that seem to be very intelligent and have a great deal of knowledge in politics but on the other hand they run around pointing at one group or one party which only helps push others to believe that also. The republicans and the bush/cheney team are just taking the bad rap so ALL of the elite and corrupt can continue with their agenda.


I don't believe we will ever get our country back, I think once the machine takes that one big step, some will fight and many will bow down and give in. I think America as we know it or would like to know it, is headed out the door, never to return.

[vickitulsa]

19. You're right -- eyes wide open here.

That's why I have ceased to believe that the Dems are going to "save our country" or "bring the old righteous America back," in spite of a brief surge of hope I had during my first years at DU. I also no longer feel involved or excited about elections, since they're pointless except as diversions these days. (As diversions, they still work well for the ones in power. Long as they pretend to hold fair elections, they can escape blame.)

I don't understand how so many bright people can still truly believe that getting a Dem president in office will really change things in the ways they need most to be changed. Dems in office, from the president on down, will NOT "fix" a system that has been fully co-opted by the wealthy and powerful who really run things behind the scenes. It's not in their interest to do so, because politics these days in America is all about the self-serving of the individual politicians and making them rich(er), not about serving the people.

I have hidden that crazy GD-P place from my sight and only read DU now mostly to get the "real" news I can't get anymore from the fully co-opted mass media. I think the main reason most DUers are still buying into the idea that the Dems WILL restore our government to some semblance of democracy is because they can't bear to admit the bitter truth of it -- that we lost all control of our "leaders" a long time ago.

The simple fact that we can no longer verify that our elections are fair means we have no way of knowing who the people really voted for and who should therefore be taking office. Without that, we are lost.

Potomoc Fever seems to overtake all who venture into politics these days, and if we do get a Dem as prez this time around, I won't be holding my breath to see when he or she is going to "fix" the mess our system has become. It's a big game to all of them now, the politicians. We the People are the perpetual losers, and they win big bucks for their participation.

America as a "beacon of freedom" is a fond memory now, nothing more, and likely never to be again.

[bdamomma]

35. apparently this Congress thinks that this election in November

will be the "cure all" which I feel too will not be. They are stuck in that mindset that with a new leadership all of our problems will be minimized, not realistic thinking to me either. Will they view this sick regime we have had as 'water under the bridge" I hope not, this administration needs to be arrested and tried and put in Prison.

[superkia]

39. I too feel they need to be punished but dont believe it will ever...

happen because if someone were to take down any of the powerful politicians in washington like a bush, cheney or even a clinton, they would be so pissed that they would take way too many down with them. They are all in it until the end and if someone thinks of stepping up, they either get investigated for something and thrown in jail, paid off or just plain killed. If people open their eyes to reality there is only one solution and it will involve all citizens and actual hardship to many because the ones in power are not going to relinquish it easily. There are reasons that laws have been changed and the president has been signing some pretty scary stuff on his own, they understand at some point it may get ugly and they want to be able to kill or jail us legally.

The E.U. is lockstep with the U.S. as well as Canada and Mexico. The countries that aren't going along are considered the axis of evil or a terrorist state and will have puppets put in power or just destroyed. Its strange to think it but at least Iran, Syria, Venezuela, China and Russia are trying to stand up to the corrupt regimes running around spreading "democracy" or taking over the world, what ever you want to call it.

I think our biggest problem we face, is ourselves! vickitulsa had it right, above with this statement alone:

"I think the main reason most DUers are still buying into the idea that the Dems WILL restore our government to some semblance of democracy is because they can't bear to admit the bitter truth of it -- that we lost all control of our "leaders" a long time ago."


Everyone wants to ignore the truth because if you fight it, bad things may hit YOUR family and most don't realize that the past will just bite us in the ass if we don't learn from it. Eventually, it will hit ALL of our families!


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[sammythecat]

82. I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're absolutely right.

Remember this picture from shortly after the 2006 elections when Nancy Pelosi became Speaker and the Dems finally got control of congress? In the picture it looked like Nancy had just whispered that soon she was going to cut his balls off and he knew she could do it. I was practically giddy with anticipation when I saw that picture. I couldn't wait for the shit to hit the fan.
Well, it never did, did it?



I had high hopes then for big changes for the better and what did we get? Nothing but disappointment and "impeachment is off the table". It seems the many of the big and powerful in this country, Insurance, Pharmaceuticals, oil, defense, etc., have become SO big and powerful that they are no longer under control. THEY control what happens in this country and they have the money, power, and resources to crush any opposition. One good example is the 2000 election. Say anything you want about how Bush became POTUS, it doesn't matter, he became our president, and goddamm if, despite all reason, sense, and logic, he did it AGAIN in 2004!

I tend to have a rather gloomy outlook for our future. I think if we started in earnest today, it will take at least a generation to clear out the corrupt and compromised from the Congress and the Press. The past 8 years has demonstrated to me that they (Congress and Press) have been weak, incompetent, corrupt, or combinations of all three. They will never, EVER, admit this and they will continue to enable the evil to avoid admitting their complicity. It's going to take some time to get back on the right track, if it happens at all.

[zonmoy]

44. If they are in lockstep with each other then what are the option.

hope that everybody that figures that out goes for the greens and libertarians. or are more violent actions necessary.

[superkia]

47. I listened to an interview with Jesse Ventura and he spoke about...

how we need to vote for real people in different parties and get away from the two party system that has been corrupted. He was promoting his book called: "Dont start the revolution without me". He also mentioned that if the system ever allowed a normal citizen to actually become a candidate with a shot at actually winning, the system would just take out that candidate like JFK and RFK were.

The only way anything involving violence would take place, would be when the government takes the violent step towards its citizens, then you MAY see some try to stand up to the corruption but until then I don't think anything will take place at all. The sad thing is, tazer deaths continue to happen and are used more often when they really aren't needed and even at peaceful protests it seems that the police are either starting the violence or are just using unnecessary violence on peaceful citizens. Also, if martial law is ever called for, our soldiers are all stuck in Iraq, so we will be dealing with Blackwater mercenaries and now the Canadian troops running our streets and our lives under instruction from corrupt officials.

From what I have read lately, it seems even Canada's system is just as corrupt as ours at the top.

[defendandprotect]

66. Violence must NEVER be considered an acceptable option -- as we can see no good

comes from it; consider our own violent REVOLUTION --

We were immediately set up with a Constitution which affirmed the rights of white male property owners . . .

A Constitution which confirmed the inequality of females ---

and Africans in America --

and the native Americans whose property we stole ---


The Constitutional compromises have kept us a separated nation ---

indeed, set us up for a Civil War over slavery.


We are still trying to recover from these compromises ---

From a Constitution which confirms a white male patriarchy --


So -- Royalty morphed into elites and now into corporations --- no difference.


And the economic tool of rulers --- Capitalism --- continues to create "King of the Hill"

monopolies/elites who use financial power to buy more power . . .

In fact, to buy our "people's government" because there is always someone who is for sale.

[zonmoy]

124. so how do we fix it.

or are you just planning to just go meekly when they round everybody up and ship them to concentration camps.

[Brigid]

18. But, but . . .

we have input every four years. Remember Dana Perino said so? :sarcasm:

[MonkeyFunk]

20. only drama queens and idiots

think we're just like Nazi Germany.

[Cyrano]

21. History never repeats itself in exactly the same way

But the similarities between the Germany of the mid-1930s and ourselves today is unmistakable.

Read post #5 above and wherever it says "German" replace it with American. I think you might find the similarities striking.

Oh, and by the way, name-calling is not an argument. If you disagree, please be courteous enough to state your views.

[Echo In Light]

24. Creeping Fascism: From Nazi Germany to Post 9/11 America, by Ray McGovern

http://www.alternet.org/story/71881/

The Bush Hitler Thing, editorial by former German citizen
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3201

Are Parallels To Nazi Germany Crazy? by Harley Sorensen
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0126-02.htm

[vickitulsa]

52. These are both excellent pieces, on a very important topic,

and all the more weighted because they are written by Germans who have good cause to know what they're talking about and an informed wariness of the obvious parallels that can be seen in the U.S. in present times.

Both written in 2004, when most Americans still blindly supported Shrub's warmongering even if they did not understand for certain just what threat either the Taliban or Saddam Hussein posed to our own country (beyond their fresh fears and amorphous rage over the attacks of 9-11), these two articles offer great insights that put the lie to any claim that the U.S. of today is totally unlike Nazi Germany.

Thank you for posting these! I hope many will read them.

This from the first article especially caught my attention, regarding the question of why the German people "did nothing" even after they had begun to see what the Nazis truly represented:

It was a climate of fear - there's nothing anyone can do when the government uses fear and imprisonment to intimidate people. The government was above the law - even in Germany, it became 'every man for himself'. Advancement was possible by exposing 'traitors' - anyone who questioned the government. It didn't matter if the people you accused were guilty or not - just the accusation was enough.

Perhaps those who namecall and vehemently deny the very unpleasant realities of where we stand in America now simply find it impossible to identify with those "good Germans" whom people often vilify for their inaction. After all, "we" are doing something, right? We're fighting back, working to get Dems elected, we're intelligent and we're engaged. The "bad guys" are the Repugs and the Bu$h administration heavies, not any of US -- we are not complicit.

And in a certain sense, that is true of so many here at DU. But on the other hand, we too can feel the fear creeping up the back of our necks when we think of sticking them out "too far" in our quest to right our ship of state and preserve our Constitution and our rights. I've seen the atmosphere change even in my almost-three years here, such that some (including myself) have voiced our most intense anger at the turns of events only to then express our concern about our own safety.

Frequently now we see "advice" offered to public figures or anyone else who is standing up defiantly to those in power, along the lines of "don't fly on small planes" or "hope he has good bodyguards."

We do know that there is reason to be afraid, and be very afraid indeed. How is this any different from what the "good Germans" lived through in the late 1930's? I stopped criticizing them some years ago because I now know how they felt.

They could see that what had appeared to be early good things that the Nazis accomplished were already turning out to be deceptive, and bad things were following right on the heels of it all. But by then, the lockstep had taken hold and the fear pervaded. The power and control were entrenched because the military was owned.

When citizens are so afraid that they will turn on each other to save their own hides, we're in big trouble. They don't realize that craven, traitorous acts like spying on their neighbors will not save them, either, in the end.

My favorite piece from an informed observer living in Germany in the last half of the 1930's is this excerpt from William Shirer's Berlin Diary. He and this work, as well as his more famous Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, are established credible sources of history from that time. This excerpt is described in the short intro as an "abbreviated and true summary," and I think that nails it pretty well. I found this online when researching these very issues a few years ago. I'm glad to see it remains there, exactly as I found it then. The entire excerpt is only six paragraphs long, and I encourage everyone to read it at the link below.

http://www.datasync.com/~davidg59/shirer.html

Of course, these are just one man's opinions, and his characterization of the nature of the German people among whom he lived in those awful times may seem a bit unfair or biased, but are they? And are we -- are most Americans -- so very different from them?

Certainly, GWB would like very much to be regarded as highly and deemed as untouchable as Hitler was at his zenith of power and control!

The one word which keeps coming to my mind, when I think of the dire dilemma we all face in America today and what we can possibly do about it, is "Resistance." Were it not for the organized resistance efforts of many courageous souls during World War II who were willing to risk death fighting back rather than to allow the fascism to go unchallenged and win out completely, who knows what the world would be like now? Can we even begin to imagine such a scenario, wherein Hitler succeeded in seeing his "Third Reich" hold sway over the world for a thousand years?

Could the next fascist "leader" in fact be even worse, given the level of military power he may employ to his ends?

I think we deny the possibility at our own peril. But then, it seems to me that human beings do excel at denial.

At critical times, however, we can also excel at facing the hard truth and overcoming terrible threats to our wellbeing. I hope the latter quality is what finally asserts itself more strongly.

[defendandprotect]

75. Two wonderful --- sadly so --- articles ....

In the mid- to late 1930s, Germany was able to annex nearby territories without firing a shot. That was because of the threat of the German military, the strongest in the world at the time. That might be compared with the sudden flexibility of Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Libya, all of whom are aware that Bush will do more than just threaten; he'll do it.

That Bush could sell an attack on IRAQ in response to 9/11 strongly indicates that the American public is grossly misinformed/disinformed by our corporate-press.

Who was asking about the large scale/total invasion of Afghanistan in order to capture a small number of supposed Afghanistani/Taliban members --- in fact, most of the alleged hijackers were Saudis -- and America had established the Taliban/AlQaeda via our CIA.

And yet, looking at the anti-war movement we understand that most people weren't fooled.

As I see it, our problem is that we all simply live ---
On the other hand, the elite/royalty of the nation get together and plan --
so they're probably 50-100 years ahead of us.

The information we need, as citizens, is not being taught in our schools nor is it being
covered by our corporate-press.


PS: Just want to add that I had many questions about our government's dropping of the "Nazi hunt" after WWII --- some say it was demanded by Nelson Rockefeller in a deal he made re the establishment of Israel. Unfortunately like many others I wondered what was wrong with the
Germany people. Though my grandmother, of German descent, pointed out that people everywhere are the same --- good, bad and every other kind. Truth hearings are the best idea, IMO, and probably would have done us more good than playing a blame game. These insights, sadly, have
become stronger as our own world here closes.

I also agree that things don't play out a second time in exactly the same way -- more than likely. We have the complication of Global Warming breathing down our necks. And, I would
imagine that if the net came down over America, it would be coming down over most of the world
quickly thereafter.

[Zynx]

53. Our economic crisis is not even in the same galaxy of magnitude as Germany's in the 1930s.

Anyone who thinks so is an utter moron with no knowledge of history or economics.

[destes]

70. You may be right but.............

I'd still like to know just what percentage of the German people were homeless in the early thirties. The homeless in the USA are the canary in the mine for our economy and maybe for our humanity.

[BreweryYardRat]

22. THANK YOU.

Honestly, I'm getting sick of this shit.

[Cyrano]

23. And you disagree with "this shit" because...?

[TheWatcher]

111. Because they cannot handle what is happening to their country.

They want to feel good, bathe in false hope, and pretend it doesn't exist, so therefore it will go away.

The level of disconnect from reality is becoming quite spectacular on this board.

Why bother to argue with willful Lemmings anymore.

When the Hard Rain falls, you might offer them an Umbrella, but they'll just look at you incredulously, and tell you to piss off. "Can't you see the sun is shining and there's nothing but Blue Skies as far as the eye can see?"

[mitchum]

34. We are far more like Franco's Spain

[mmonk]

73. Only ostriches bury their heads in the sand.

[fascisthunter]

80. My Mother Born in Germany Would Disagree with You

so would many others currently surviving parents who endured the war up close and personal. You might not like the comparison but it's real.... the ones denying the comparison are the real queens and idiots here.

[FightTheRight89]

107. You said it best.

[TheWatcher]

117. .....

[TheWatcher]

116. I don't want to get into a nasty confrontaion MF

But only people who are willfully deluded and willfully ignorant to the creeping fascism around them think this way.

Please open your eyes and see the warning signs around you.

Clinging to blind hope that November 2008 is going to make everything OK again is what is idiotic.

And dangerously so.

I know you don't want to believe any of it, I know you don't want to see.

But you must open your mind to what is happening here.

You can call people like me names all you want.

You are solving nothing and only hurting people who mean you no harm, and are trying to sound the alarm about what is going on around them.

[MonkeyFunk]

155. sorry

but I think too many people here set up a false dichotomy. Either people think it's hunky-dory here, or we're on the verge of nazism. The truth is somewhere in between.

[treestar]

165. That's a very black and white view

Anything can be compared and contrasted. We should not let the right wing make us afraid to point out the dangerous similarities. Otherwise, we will not have learned from history and could be doomed to repeat it.

[MedleyMisty]

25. I don't know - I think those smiling men you mentioned are accountable

If people choose and support and invite fascism and evil, it's their fault. No, maybe we don't have the power to stop it. But we're all free inside our own heads and control our own thoughts and have power over ourselves, at least. So I am holding those who support it responsible for that support.

I don't know - there is something deeply and terribly wrong with our species. I wish some other species would come pick me up and take me back to my home planet, because this one sure as hell doesn't feel like home.

[Echo In Light]

27. I doubt there are as many who support it as those who smugly deny its parallels

I suspect such people experience a feeling of self satisfaction that stems from their want of siding with The Voice of Reason.

This likewise explains the vitriol behind their attacks on the dissenting view: safely upon firm ground, it's fun for them to poke fun at the "crazy" people who perceive reality differently than they.

A primary aspect of conforming to the prevailing establishment ideology is vehement denial of the potential for worst case scenarios involving criminal complicity in the overarching system, its hierarchies, cherished {imposed} cultural beliefs, and hollowed institutions - which all serve to create and maintain the widely adhered to ideal. Ironically, the list of such complicity and conspiracy is long and documented. This points to why Orwell's 1984 was so prophetic: it accurately captured the true nature of the modern state in that nothing is officially true until it is officially denied.

Within this system of The Few and The Many, large sectors of The Many are naturally encouraged to aspire to the position of The Few through convenient necessary illusions, and many self serving inducements which bombard the collective consciousness via the daily round of life. This provides deep seated underpinnings for people to disavow and trivialize the reality of American fascism. When you tell someone that much of what they've gleaned from where they live is not only a big lie, but lies interwoven into the fabric of their culture systematically geared toward controlling what and how they think/perceive, often to the benefit of The Few, they tend to become quite defensive about it. Hostile, even.

[conscious evolution]

103. Well said.

This part caught my eye-"culture systematically geared toward controlling what and how they think/perceive, "

I see five main themes being pushed to build and maintain that illusion-compete,conform,breed be afraid and consume.
If you look you can see how they permeate our media and pop culture.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. We need to hold them accountable or pardon the Nazis

[bdamomma]

29. these thugs will have to be

WILL HAVE TO BE prosecuted, they have damaged our country and our image around the world. That saying it could never happen here, well, I guess it has unfortunately. We have no creditability due to this sick sick man *.

[Echo In Light]

30. Yes and no: we've also lost credibility due to our inaction

[bdamomma]

37. that is the word right there INACTION.

I mean if our personnel space is being threatened would you or anyone else consider to protect yourselves from a prominent danger being inflicted upon you or your family, or will we/you or anyone comply with their wishes?

[mikekohr]

36. Visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC

if you have the opportunity. Spend a day there. Then visit the Museum of the American Indian at the foot of the mall. If you wonder how it happened in Germany, consider how it happened here.

mike kohr

[midnight]

38. If you have a sign in your yard to bring the troops home, you

do not qualify as a good german. If you participate in ending this war, you do not qualify as a good german. If you lose your job, because you speak out against this war, you do not qualify as a good german. If you are audited by the IRS four years running for speaking out against this war, you do not qualify as a good german.

[Orsino]

41. They won't wear brown shirts again for at least fifty years.

They always rebrand their bullshit, at least. We're only so stupid, after all.

[pbca]

42. From my POV it didn't start with Bush/Cheney

I'm not sure when, exactly, it started - before I was born sometimes. Every US president, going back to at least Harry Truman (with the possible exception of Carter) - would be convicted of war crimes if they faced a fair trial and most members of the Senate and House would be found to be complicit in at least some of them.

I currently live in Canada. I thought Clinton was too right wing and when Bush was elected I began the application process (before 9/11) - I din't know exactly what would happen, but I knew it would be bad, I knew there would be war in the ME, I knew the economy would do poorly: But beyond all of that when Bush was elected I knew that the US was, at heart, a far right country.

[cascadiance]

45. Even Carter, along with Zbigniew Brezinski created a lot of the mess in Afghanistan

... as a part of the cold war against the Soviets.

[cascadiance]

46. I think fixing our image will be a two stage process...

I think you are right that America isn't fully aware the depth to which the rest of the world despises us now, and that it reaches now beyond even George Bush, though we'd like to think otherwise.

I think the first stage will be to get someone like Obama elected and a stronger Democratic majority (or at least politicians if they are also greens, etc. that aren't Republicans).

Then I think it is upon the other world countries to STILL indicate their displeasure with us that we don't provide some sort of redress for what we've done wrong, and that they say that they have "other models" of democracy than what we provide them, because we've shown that we provide a pretty poor example (with the key word being "provide" instead of "provided").

If it becomes clear to the Democrats in charge that they aren't being received with open arms, hopefully at that point WE as the citizens elect them make a big roar and say that WE demand they hold Bush and his minions accountable for what they did (like we've done all along and say that ONLY by doing so, and undoing some of Bush's executive orders and unconstitutional laws that have been put in place) will we even start regaining the respect of the world, perhaps we can force their hand in starting the prosecutions of these people. Even if it isn't a heavy prosecution, but at least a South African style "truth commission" (which would forgive some but STILL punish those that continue to lie about their crimes), that would be a good start. Perhaps even give South Africa some credit for that model of justice when we pursue these bastards will help us on the world stage by saying we are willing to also follow other countries' good examples as well as wanting to become good world citizens again.

If the Dems won't do this, that is when we need to seriously start building another party that will demand truth and return to American values. Then we might need a three stage process instead.

[pbca]

48. I don't think it can be fixed per se

There won't be any more 'leader of the free world' - for one thing I don't think most of the world ever thought as highly of the US as Americans were told and second I think the cats out of the bag so to speak - all of the trouble in Iraq + Guantanamo etc., has started people talking about alot of other things the US has done, overtly and covertly going back decades.

I think the US image can be improved, but the US as world leader, land of opportunity, moral authority and bastion freedom and democracy is over.

[cascadiance]

58. Perhaps in our life times, yes... (or at least some of us older folk here)

But I really think it is how much we change, and how we change that will determine whether we attain such a leadership position again.

Yes, I think that a lot of what we THOUGHT of what our leadership position was false, but I don't think totally so. I do think that many for example believed more in the demand for human rights that Carter championed in the 70's under his presidency and that hurt the Soviets a lot then who were just about power then. I remember a former Soviet official being interviewed on a news show (wish I could dig up who it was and what show so I could get a transcript to quote from), who said it was Carter's policies in this area as much as Reagan's hard line policies that brought down the Soviet Union. It will be a LONG time before we can be in that position that Carter put us in so many years ago again. But I don't buy that we can't do it again. It's how sharp a "divorce" we have with the bad elements of recent years we can have that will determine if people want to embrace us again. If we can make this change and make big enough world effecting changes that do things like stave off the climate change crisis, people around the world I think would respect and look to us for leadership again. We're a long ways from that though.

But it isn't impossible. Look at how much South Africa has changed for example. Now it still has problems and still has vestiges of their old regime that stain it, but it is a good way down the path of distancing itself from its old criminal leadership, and has done so with some big changes, but not such that are destructive.

[FightTheRight89]

50. George Bush is not as bad as the Nazis were.

But I guess I'm just a tool of the right wing media.

[walldude]

51. Really?

keep talking...

[Zynx]

55. The scale is vastly different. Also, I don't see storm troopers coming into your house

and murdering you and your family for being political opponents. You call Bush a Nazi, but if you called Hitler a Communist, you would be dead before lunch.

All war looks terrible. There's no such thing as a clean war. Stop being overly dramatic. In the same span of time in WWII, 1939-1944, over 50 million people had been killed worldwide. 50 million. Think about that.

[walldude]

56. Stop being overly dramatic.

these aren't all war pictures friend. Storm troopers aren't coming into my house you are right, but they will if they want to. I bet if you ask Swamp Rat or another resident of N.O, you'll hear a different story about "stormtroopers". They were all over N.O., and they weren't there to help.

Not to mention that this isn't 1941 and you don't need door to door stormtroopers anymore. When the stormtroopers come today it's in the dead of night, and you get snuck off to some gulag in another country.

We don't need to burn books anymore, we just keep an eye on who's reading them.


Yeah 50 million died in WWII, over a million have died in Iraq. What's the magic number? What's the magic number where someone is considered as evil as the Nazi's?

[TheWatcher]

112. I think you just hit the nail on the head as to how these people think.

Until it looks EXACTLY like what we saw in the 30's and 40's Germany, there is no reason to be alarmed.

So shut up, feel good, pretend everything is going to be fine, and in January of 2009, America will be transformed magically back into Utopia.

Even if things DO get that bad, these same people will simply lower the bar further and keep telling you it doesn't exist.

History is repeating itself.

And the Title of this post says it all.

Some of them are posting in this thread.

[nichomachus]

59. You set the bar really low, don't you?

I don't see storm troopers coming into your house

By the time that happens, my friend, it's already too late. Don't set the bar so low. It was rather late in the game in the Third Reich when storm troopers were coming into people's houses.

However, Bush already has -- and has used -- the power to seize American citizens without cause, hold them incommunicado, drive them insane through torture, and then try them on trumped-up charges. It has been done.

Don't be so smug.

[TBF]

64. Correct - he is worse.

He is worse because he is out there doing it all under the guise of "spreading democracy". At least Hitler knew he was a fascist.

[FightTheRight89]

83. I don't think I belong here then.

Worse than Hitler.
You just said that George Bush is worse than Hitler.
Worse than Hitler.

...

I have nothing left to say.

[Karenina]

85. Left unchecked, and I see no one stepping up to the plate

The *MIC (and that includes Poppy's reign) and the subversion of American checks and balances WILL, at the end of the day, make Hitler's horror look like "Lord of the Flies." If you have no more foresight than that which you currently disply, you may indeed be in the wrong place. You might also do well to shut up, listen and follow the links already provided. The PNAC, NWO clans have technology and a global reach that Hitler and his minions could never, in their wildest homocidal dreams, have imagined.

[FightTheRight89]

102. No one needs to step up to the plate.

In about 9 months it will all be over.

[Karenina]

108. Ya think???

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

114. More magical thinking.

You are completely deluded if you think this is over in 9 months.

It's just beginning.

[FightTheRight89]

126. Yeah, I don't think so.

If this is "just the beginning", where is the end, as you see it?

[TheWatcher]

127. That's the problem mostly, with people like you.

You aren't thinking.

You aren't seeing. You are wishing and imagining reality in what you want it to be, instead of allowing yourself to see how it is. You rely on blind faith at any cost. You just want to feel good and not have to deal with any real adversity. You don't want it to be true, so therefore it cannot be.

To be honest, I can kind of understand it. You should just know going in that no amount of denial and magical thinking is going to reverse the course we are currently on, or influence it's consequences.

The way this will end is a Police State.

It's already happening around you.

Try Googling. Try opening your mind.

I know you won't because feeling good and the enjoyment of TV and Sports, and the various other mindless distractions that greatly assist you not to are far more important. It's perception of reality that's important for you, not reality itself.

I hope you'll get past that.

I won't hold my breath.

For you, or the rest of this country.

[FightTheRight89]

128. We're not going to end up in a police state.

If things started to get really bad, people would be up in arms. I have faith in the American people.

Chill out. It's all going to be over in 9 months.

[TheWatcher]

130. you are merely proving my point.

You have faith in the American people?

You mean the American people who are too busy being mesmerized by Celebrity Gossip, American Idol, TV, their favorite Sports team, and whatever other mindless cultural distraction of the moment to even pay attention to what is going on around them?

Telling me to chill out does nothing. The problem is, you can't expect any real change to occur by not holding these criminals accountable for what they have done.

You no longer have representative government in this country.

If you think this will truly all be swept under the rug like a bad memory in 9 months, you are living in quite an enchanted world indeed.

I don't need to chill out. You need to open your eyes.

[FightTheRight89]

136. Actually, believe it or not, we do have representative government.

The Constitution mandates that we elect representatives to our nation's government every first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. You told me to read the Patriot Act, I suggest you read the Constitution.

I know that times are hard and sometimes the American people are lazy and/or misguided. Things will get better, especially because they're not so bad now. If we were truly a fascist government, radicals like many on this site would already be rounded up and killed. We would not have free access to the internet. We would have killed all the non-white and non-Christians in concentration camps across the nation.

The truth is, to compare atrocities committed by the Nazis to the things done by certain parts of our government is erroneous and is insulting to people who have suffered. America is a nation of good intentions, Nazi Germany was a nation blinded by hate and fear. The Nazi government was a centralized killing machine. The Bush administration is a cancer within the pure American body, a body that loves freedom and loves their fellow citizens of the world. The Bush administration does not control you or me. The American government is decentralized. Those committing terrible acts are not doing them on direct orders from the Bush administration and are not doing them on a mass scale or to the same terrible degree as others.

Sometimes it's hard to make a distinction between the two when you're so angry, and I understand that.

[TheWatcher]

140. Oh would you PLEASE spare me the Civics Lesson and the Feel Good Platitudes.

You speak as though you are completely ignorant of American history, and although you do seem pretty naive, I'd like to think you are a bit of a brighter bulb than that. Your responses show that your brain is pretty well fermented in propaganda, but come on, you can do better than this.

First there is this ridiculous statement.

"The Constitution mandates that we elect representatives to our nation's government every first Tuesday after the first Monday in November."

And those currently elected representatives have done little to nothing to STOP the current administration from trampling said constitution, impeaching the leaders that started this illegal and unjust war based on lies and falsified intelligence, and they refuse to follow the will and interests of the people, opting instead to toil for the large corporate interests and lobbyists that hold them firmly in their pockets.

"You told me to read the Patriot Act, I suggest you read the Constitution."
"
:"What in the HELL does this mean? Obviously you haven't read the Constitution at all past the "opening paragraph, or you would understand that their are few pieces of legislation you would be hard "pressed to find that UNDERMINE the Constitution and that DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSE the Constitution WORSE than Patriot Act I and II. They didn't even bother to READ the damn things before they were passed.

And while we're at it the issue of Illegal Domestic Spying is at odds with with the 4th Amendment as well, AND the FISA laws, which is just one of many that you think it's OK for the Bush administration to completely BREAK and IGNORE.

No administration has done more to effectively NEGATE and render IMPOTENT the Constitution of this country than this one. They simply ignore the laws of the land and the Constitution and do whatever they please. And you think by not holding them accountable, and just letting them leave in 9 months, (which by the way leaves them PLENTY of time to bomb Iran and start a new war and GOD KNOWS what else), that we can still claim to be a functioning democracy, and that an epic wave of change, justice, and prosperity will MAGICALLY SWEEP across the Land Of they Thought They Were Free like a glistening Tidal Wave, and all will be well.

This is dangerously delusional.

"The truth is, to compare atrocities committed by the Nazis to the things done by certain parts of our government is erroneous and is insulting to people who have suffered."

As a person of German descent with ancestors that did not survive that horrible period as a direct result of Hitler, you can Go Cheney Yourself with that statement. And again, you show complete ignorance of the history of your country, at least the past 50 years of it.

"The Bush administration is a cancer within the pure American body, a body that loves freedom and loves their fellow citizens of the world."

My God have you been studying his speeches? You sound just like him. Our government is completely corrupt from the top to the bottom. Why don't you take some time and investigate our foreign policy for the past 5 decades and explain in detail to me how our good intentions have worked out. In Viet Nam, South America, Korea, the Middle East, Somalia, Kosovo, and just about anywhere in the world where we have propped up despotic dictators for whatever agenda was on the table. Talk to me about Reagan, Nixon, Bush I, Panama, Negropante's Death Squads in El Salvador, Iran/Contra, etc, etc, etc.

You act like Bush is an isolated incident in an otherwise saintly and squeaky-clean history. Your ignorance of American history is breathtaking. I almost don't know where to begin, because your whole belief system sounds like a talking point.

"Those committing terrible acts are not doing them on direct orders from the Bush administration and are not doing them on a mass scale or to the same terrible degree as others."

Really? The falsifying of intelligence was not done by orders from the Bush Administration. The War was not done by the Bush Administration. Making Torture National Policy was not done by the Bush Administration. The breaking of the FISA Laws, Domestic Spying had nothing to do with the administration. Countries that begrudgingly made up the Coalition of the willing were not threatened with reprisals by the Bush Administration for not going along with this insane war.

"and are not doing them on a mass scale or to the same terrible degree as others."

And at the same point in Hitler's Reich, neither were they. What you fail to understand is the parallels of what is happening now compared to then, because the same thing is playing out very similarly. History is slowly repeating itself. What in the hell do you call Gitmo, and the hundreds, maybe thousands of other SECRET PRISONS set up across the Middle East that are housing an UNKNOWN number of "unlawful enemy combatants?" Halfway houses? Forget about the limited knowledge we have
of the atrocities that have trickled forth these past seven years. They were horrifying enough. Think about what we DON'T know going on at the other secret installations. This doesn't concern you in the least. OH, THAT'S RIGHT, it doesn't exist. It's all conspiracy. it's time to get back to feeling good and believing our government is good and loves us. it really is OK and completely Un-Nazi like to torture children with pliers to scare their parents into giving up information they didn't even have, because they were just unfortunate enough to be innocent civilians that got caught up in an indiscriminate dragnet, by troops in an illegal occupation of their country. USA! USA! USA! USA! ::Cue the Lee Greenwood Music:: Talk to me about 1,000,000 Iraqi's DEAD, four times as that displaced, the country's infrastructure completely destroyed, the humanitarian disaster that it has become. All because of lies and falsified intelligence. NO, we've NEVER seen THAT done before, have we.

It is not fair to draw parallels when we hold people without cause, without charges, without any access to law or legal representation?

It is not fair to draw parallels when a Horror Show like the Military Commissions Act is passed, that basically makes it perfectly OK for the President to hold YOU or I, or ANY American Citizen as an unlawful enemy combatant, without charges, without legal representation, indefinitely, REGARDLESS if we have committed any crime or not.

You show a complete lack of understanding of your environment. You rely on blind faith, magical thinking, comfortable platitudes, and feel-good propaganda like sentiments that have no basis in reality which form your system of beliefs.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present you with Good German 2.0, The American Model.

He Thinks He's Free, Too.

Run along now. I'm done with you.

[FightTheRight89]

153. Good, because I'm done with you too.

I'm sick of wasting my time trying to argue with hippies who think they know everything.

[TheWatcher]

157. And I'm tired of arguing with a willfully ignorant asshole who is too much of a coward to take his

head out of his ass to see what is going on in his own country, and thinks it's OK for the Government to spy on it's own people and completely ignore the Constitution and the Rule Of Law.

As for me being a hippie, you just put the crown jewel on your own stupidity and ignorance, because I'm about 180 degrees the opposite of one.

Please, just go back to listening to Limbaugh and Hannity, and let them hold your hand and tell you what you are supposed to think, instead of trying to engage with someone who's forgotten more about American History than you've obviously ever cared to learn, and quit pretending to be something you are not. You're only embarrassing yourself.

Like I said JAFT.*




*Just Another Fucking Troll.

[FightTheRight89]

159. Limbaugh and Hannity are two huge assholes.

And I'd prefer to remain a Democrat. Not a troll. Not a Hannityite.

But anyway, see ya!

[TheWatcher]

160. You may be many things.

But I don't think Democrat is something I would classify you. You spout far too many right wing talking points. Your apologist remarks, talking points, and ignorance of American history is something I would expect to see from a typical dittohead who joins this Site to simply cause trouble.

The only people I have heard express this kind of ambivalence toward Domestic Spying are mostly people who drink too much right wing Kool-Aid. Maybe you simply haven't found your own identity yet.

Well, maybe a Zell Miller, or Lieberman Democrat.

Whatever the case, you are grossly uninformed whatever your affiliation.

You aren't tired of arguing with me because I'm a hippie, you simply ran out of talking points and platitudes to justify and defend your own paper thin beliefs.

Shoo.

[Hugabear]

152. "I have faith in the American people"

Which American people are you talking about? Do you really think that there is going to be a mass uprising? An armed insurrection? The most that would happen is that pissed off Americans would write letters to their editors, or just bitch about it to their neighbors.

The vast majority of Americans are more interested in who's going to win American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, and Celebrity Apprentice.

[TheWatcher]

113. Then please, by all means. Be silent. Sit back and watch.

You'll wish you'd spoken up more.

[november3rd]

54. That's Our Central Job

If we ever want to restore any measure of justice in our society, we have to institute it ourselves by holding The Bush Crime Family accountable, right away.

Otherwise, we will be purveyors of the same status quo they initiated, the anything goes aristocracy, might makes right, fascist rule.

[The Stranger]

57. Guantanamo Bay is a concentration camp -- how did you miss that?

[DrCory]

62. Oh Please...

You actually think there is a comparison with, say...Buchenwald? That's just childish.

[The Stranger]

74. Not every concentration camp is Buchenwald, Dad.

So once you get out of that mindlessly imbecelic red herring, you see what is going on at Gitmo, and what happened in numerous other historical situations involving camps.

[DrCory]

77. Absurd hyperbole to compare Gitmo w/ Dachau, Magadan, etc.

...which renders our arguments ineffective.

[The Stranger]

91. Then you are engaging in "absurd hyperbole."

I just got through fucking posting that Guantanamo IS NOT the same as the camps you list. But that doesn't mean it isn't a concentration camp (repeating myself here).

[DrCory]

93. The term "concentration camp"...

has a historical connotation which Gitmo does not approach, so cut the bullshit.

[vickitulsa]

98. Hey, "Doc," and just how many of Hitler's concentration camps and death camps

were people around the world and even in Europe aware of before the first one was discovered and the slaves/prisoners freed?

They had been operating, serving their slave labor and mass slaughter purposes for MANY YEARS before most of the world had any idea they existed. And all prisoners of the Nazis were basically slated for extinction before they were done, if they'd had the time to complete their plan.

Even after first one and then another -- and then many more -- of these camps were discovered by the Allied troops, people found it almost impossible to believe that they really existed, that this horror was taking place. Gassing human beings like so many infected cattle and burning the evidence -- human bodies -- like so much refuse.

Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka -- the "death camps." I had a dear friend who toured Majdanek with his high school class, and he showed me photos of the marks made in the ovens by humans clawing with their fingernails, since some were not quite fully dead before being shoved in there to burn. These things DID HAPPEN ... but no one wanted to BELIEVE IT.

Damned few outside the official Nazi circles and those implementing the holocaust knew or would believe that these camps existed and were killing MILLIONS.

So how do you KNOW what Bu$hCo and quite possibly others before them have been doing in secret? We know about Gitmo and Abu Graib and a few other secret torture prisons which are surely death camps to some extent as well, ONLY because some insiders have leaked the information. What about all those camps they could have in operation that may only be discovered far into the future?? If ever....

Surely we know one thing: The Allies, the West learned from what the Nazis and Axis powers did, from the atrocities and mass killings, and other things, too. The West, and specifically the United States, sought out the German rocket scientists and made them citizens and benefitted from their knowledge to create better rockets and bombs. The war criminals who were not tried and hung or imprisoned at Nuremburg were brought to the U.S. where they and their neat documents were pored over and probed for data our military and government could use. The U.S. did the same thing with Japanese doctors who had committed vile atrocities with bioweapons experiments on innocent Chinese citizens, never prosecuting these mass torturers and murderers but only demanding their detailed documentation instead.

THINK about this. You really believe you KNOW what camps -- concentration, detention, torture, death, labor, or other -- our own government may be operating in secret?

You might consider reading this entire thread for information.

There already exist several large "detention" camps, purportedly for "illegal aliens" who have been detained, in this country right now -- that we KNOW of. Built and run by the likes of Halliburton and KBR, who have already taken many billions in our taxpayer money to "rebuild" Iraq, which they are NOT doing, and feed our troops, which they are doing very poorly from what I have learned.

These KNOWN camps in America (and who knows where else?) are being used already as we speak for detained "illegal aliens;" but once the crews have the process down pat, "practicing" on these "lesser humans," you think they will hesitate to put the same camps to use for others, like protestors who complain about our government or try to bring the criminals in power to justice?

I seldom get this irritated at a newbie, but you really should read and learn more, I think.

[DrCory]

109. The hyperbole continues...

The existance of KZ's were well known throughout Germany prior to the war. To say otherwise gives credence to the lies cooked up after the war by Germans to absolve their collective guilt. As for what was known by the allies, Google Jan Karski as an example. The scale may not have been known by the general population, but with so many ordinary Germans participating in the atrocities (as in the Ordnungspolizei) some essence of it had to be evident.

[DrCory]

110. So, because I can't prove...

that Nazi-style extermination camps don't or won't exist in the United States, they do or will exist? As for you "what if" scenarios, they truly strain credebility. The political and social dynamics of America in 2008 are quite different from Germany of 1933-45, whether or not you choose to believe this.

Detention facilities for people who knowingly commit the crime of violating our sovereignty (even progressive nations enforce border control) are not stepping stones for dissident slaughter houses.

I probably know as much on this subject as you, having studied Soviet penology for years, so save your "irritation".

[TheWatcher]

115. Even the educated can be willfully ignorant.

You're Exhibit A.

[DrCory]

118. Enlighten Me...

Oh venerable sage, of what I am ignorant of.

[TheWatcher]

121. What's the point?

You believe what you wish to believe. There is plenty to read on DU, plenty to Google.

But even if you did so, it would not change your line of thinking.

People like you have already decided to cling to The Matrix which makes them comfortable.

I gave up a long time ago trying to warn others of the creeping fascism and warning signs that exist all around us.

You, my friend are simply what is described in the Title of this post.

Does that mean you are uneducated? No.

Does it make you a bad person? Probably not. I don't know you personally.

Does it make you willfully ignorant to the signs of the creeping reality around you? Most certainly.

Venerable Sage? Hardly. As intelligent and well versed on what is currently going on as you are. Without a doubt.

Concern about your insults? Zero.

You're intelligent. Go Google, go learn.

I'm not your enemy or your adversary. Your own refusal to see is.

[DrCory]

142. Agree to disagree, different perceptions.

[TheWatcher]

144. Sadly so.

The difference being that you refuse to look beyond yours to objectively look at the other side's point of view.

You merely decide to believe what you believe because it is the most comfortable option, regardless of any other information.

So yes, we agree to disagree.

You took the Blue Pill, I took The Red One.

And That, Said the Cat, is That.

[FightTheRight89]

129. Looks like you're a newbie, like me.

There's no shortage of wackos on this website who think they know the truth about the United States and the rest of us are asleep to the FASCISM WORSE THAN THE NAZIS INFECTING THIS COUNTRY.

My response is usually something like this:

I can go in the middle of the town square and go "Hey! Fuck George Bush!" and not get shot. Thus, I'm not living in a police state.

[TheWatcher]

131. Those that think that everything is just fine and that a simple election in November

will change everything are the true delusional ones.

"I can go in the middle of the town square and go "Hey! Fuck George Bush!" and not get shot. Thus, I'm not living in a police state."

Possibly the single most ignorant thing I have seen on this Site in a long time.

Read Patriot Act I and II and get back to me on that statement.

Oh, and I suppose ignoring the FISA laws and spying on everyone's communications is not anything to worry about either.

[FightTheRight89]

132. I've got nothing to hide.

I'm not worried.

[TheWatcher]

133. Are you sure you are on the right Site?

That's a typical right wing talking point.

Unlawful spying SHOULD NEVER be allowed in a free society, and if you think it should be, you and I definitely are NOT on the same side, and you are enabling the criminals who you supposedly are against and think we will be safe from nine months from now.

What a typical Kool-Aid drinker you are turning out to be.

I suppose you think the war is great and that there really were WMD's.

Are you simply too dense to understand the precedence that illegal Domestic Spying sets. it doesn't MATTER if you have anything to hide or not. You can still be falsely accused and have no recourse against it. Read some of the signing statements and legislation that your giggling murderer of a President has signed.

JAFT.

[FightTheRight89]

138. Yeah, I'm definitely on the right site.

Economically, I'm very liberal. Socially, I'm liberal. Foreign policywise, I consider myself a moderate, simply because I cannot stand the radicals who on the one side say we should bomb everyone and the other side who advocate isolationism. Basically fascists vs. hippies.

And no, the war sucks. It's terrible. We should leave now.

And yeah, about the wiretapping, I guess you're right. On the one hand, I think if you've got nothing to hide, why would they look through your stuff. But then again, why not just go to Congress to get it approved? But on the other hand, nothing of consequence has come from it.

[magellan]

134. Then you wouldn't mind learning

...the government has been reading your emails and listening to your phone conversations and has even sent agents around to look inside your house while you're gone, all without your knowledge and approval?

If the possibility of these things doesn't bother you, please hand your wallet over to the next stranger you meet. It's no different than what you've already condoned -- unless you're crazy enough to trust the government more than you would a random stranger. Either are equally capable of upholding your faith...or crushing it.

[FightTheRight89]

137. I suppose you're right.

I don't know, I'm ambivalent towards the wiretaps. On the one hand, there's no reason for them to look through my stuff. But on the other hand, why not just go to the Senate?

[magellan]

139. Ambivalence is how we lose our rights

"It's illegal, but I don't mind if it happens to someone else" is no way to think if you want to live in a country that values justice and freedom. It results in the opposite and ensures the possibility that someday, YOU may be "someone else".

Believe that it won't happen to you if that gives you comfort, believe that you'd never do anything to garner such attention from the government. The problem is, you can't control what the government thinks is right or wrong if they don't care about the law or rewrite it on whim to suit their fancy. These things have happened. And that means you aren't exempt. No one is.

If you care about the rule of law, otherwise known as our Constitution, you really shouldn't be ambivalent about this. I hope you'll do lots more reading here about the powers BushCo have taken and how they could very easily be used against any and all Americans, regardless of political leaning.

[file83]

151. You said everything I was thinking - GREAT POST!!

:thumbsup:

[tuckessee]

135. Please get your terms straight.

The camps you're referring to are known as extermination camps (Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc) to differentiate them from mere concentration camps (Ravensbruck, Oranienburg, etc.)

All extermination camps were in the East (Poland, Silesia, etc.) while the scores concentration camps, varying greatly in size, were scattered about everywhere.

[DrCory]

141. I am aware of that...

and that isn't the point. The term "concentration camp", has a popular historical connotation which should be avoided, otherwise we look moonbatish.

Besides, it's a matter of semantics anyway, as camps such as Mauthausen, Dachau, Sachsenhausen (approx. 50% dead through means other than gassing) etc. were certainly "extermination" camps, just through different means.

[TheWatcher]

143. Ahhh, Moonbat

The adorable buzzword where credibility and relevance go to die following it's utterance.

[DrCory]

145. In the real world...

the word has genuine meaning. I know, because I live in it, and must suffer moonbatery originating from all political, social, and economic viewpoints.

[Gormy Cuss]

147. The only "real world" where moonbat has meaning is among the right wing.

Most people have never heard of the term.

[DrCory]

148. Really?

That's funny, 'cause I learned the word from my mother, a Marxist and civil rights activist. She, and her associates, used the term to riducule opponents who, in their words, raised the "GULAG bogeyman". Of course,the joke was kind of on her, because her associates had just that in mind.

[Gormy Cuss]

149. Really. Your mother and her associates aren't a large enough sample to generalize.

I'm assuming that you're an American. Perhaps you're not. Do a Google search on the term and see how few of the first 1,000 hits are from any place other than right wing sources.

[Karenina]

154. The wilfull ignorance is stunning, eh GC?

:hi:

[Gormy Cuss]

156. Willful ignorance on a thread about 'Good Germans'--

I'm shocked, I tell you.;-)

[DrCory]

161. It Really doesn't matter...

the word amuses me, and I'll continue to use it. Unless it's banned here, in which case you'll need to direct me to the list of banned words. Otherwise, free speech and all, 'ya know.

[TheWatcher]

158. No, it's your own willful ignorance to your environment you are experiencing

And you are attaching a commonly used Right Wing Buzzword to it.

[lonestarnot]

60. Very proud to K & R this thread!

:applause:

[TBF]

63. Completely Agree --

It is so embarrasing. I can't even describe the numbness I felt when Bush/Cheney were re-elected. The first election, I give people a free pass. But the second - couldn't anyone see what was happening?

This election must not be a mistake repeated AGAIN. Framed this way it makes me see why a protest vote for Nader won't even be possible. I will vote for my nominee Obama, or I will be forced to vote for the lady that I dislike. But I will not be part of this craziness any longer.

[bobbolink]

65. I posted the same subject line a couple of months ago...

but it was from a different direction.

We "progressives" are looking the other way while people here, in the richest country in the world, are suffering and dying of poverty. We aren't wearing a yellow star, but the suffering is real.

Yet, it doesn't register with "progressives".

The HOUSING CRISIS has gone on for decades, but it wasn't noticed, until it hit the muddleclass.

Of course, the REAL crisis, of low-income housing, is still ignored.

Yes, Good Germans, indeed.

:cry:

[anniebelle]

67. The helplessness is so overwhelming.

I'm an old woman, but I grieve so for my children, grandchildren and their children. This country is not the one I grew up to love and honor. I so hope we bring these evil doers to their proper justice in the world courts.

[libodem]

71. Sadly this is all too true

some time ago I was lamenting the same sentiments and another DU'er replied to me that I was to blame. I was wounded. I took it personally. In context my attacker was correct. I might bitch and moan all day long but otherwise how have I stood up against the atrocities being perpetrated in our name. It leaves me feeling very helpless and depressed. I should be activated and outraged! As should we all.

(edit typo)

[Lex Talionis]

72. After reading the replies to this thread. I'll ask this.

What are you going to do? Do you really believe that those in power are going to listen when all you do is sit at a keyboard telling us how we're all good Germans now? Do you really think that will make a difference? Who will you send to bring them to trial? The Police, the FBI, the U.N.?

If your not willing to spill blood, yours or theirs, then nothing will change. That is the way it really is. If your not willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, then why should those in power care what you think. If some here believe that Bush is worst than Hitler, than why do you not take action? I'll tell you why. Its to hard. To dangerous. The sacrifice would be to great. Your only 1, 2, or 1000. On and on and on. Its much easier to make excuses than to take action. Much easier to post pics and links, than to really do what is needed to stop those who you say are like Hitler.

Yea, this country is sinking fast and in the next 10 to 20 years will be like the Baltic's, or worse. And most of you will still be setting at the keyboard, typing furiously, all full of self righteous indignation and outrage, feeling all good that you've made your point to the ignorant masses, believing that you have done all you can do. But, you still will not take action and they still will not listen. So while you say we are all good Germans now, make sure you include yourself and all you know who say, "Somebody needs to do something", and sit on their asses and do nothing.

One final point. If you really,really believe that Bush is Hitler. Buy a gun, your gonna need it.

[vickitulsa]

96. It is fair for you to ask, and to make the assertions you make.

But keep in mind that you have no way of knowing what each of us is doing "IRL."

Also, when the OP says, "'We' are all good Germans now," isn't that including ourselves in that "we," as you suggest? Of course it is.

In my mind it's also putting forth the idea that we should think hard about whether we want to continue to be this, the construct that represents something we all understand -- "good Germans" who fail to act in time to prevent (yet more) catastrophic events. I see it as a challenge that may well be necessary to help us get past the obvious reluctance most people have to putting themselves personally at risk for a "larger cause."

Your challenges, OTOH, come awfully close to outright mockery or debasement, and perhaps you might be a bit careful about that, simply because you DON'T KNOW what we who speak out are also DOING, right?

I for one am always uncomfortable "bragging" about what I've done -- and particularly when it is very near and dear to my heart and probably puts me at risk. I'm willing to DO some things but not necessarily to spread the word all over that I'm doing them, at least at this point, lest I be stopped from doing them before I'm done. Doesn't that make sense?

And I'm always a bit amused at those who criticize others for being "keyboard warriors," when the critic is ALSO being that very same thing in speaking his own mind to others. :) Are you not using your keyboard in the very same way you accuse others of doing?

If those who have posed arguments against the OP had simply read the responses in the thread, including a couple of the links to excellent articles, all their challenges and questions are answered in full. Every one of them! This is a truly remarkable thread in this respect, as in some others, and I'm very proud of the DUers who have weighed in here -- very courageously, in my opinion.

The thing is, the way ideas and beliefs turn into action is usually through the interim path of WORDS. We need to observe, listen, and learn, then think things through, get input from many sources, seek out the truth as best we can find and discern it -- that's Step One. Then most of us find we benefit hugely from talking about what we're thinking and discussing the conclusions we're reaching with others, ideally with those we respect and whose opinions and input we value.

It's through the speaking out on issues of importance to us that we solidify our opinions -- or sometimes come to see things differently and discard certain ideas. That's the real significance and value of all the talking. I suspect that many who have posted on this thread are just now coming to the conclusion that, indeed, we are very much past the tipping point in this frightening and dangerous situation. It's been bad for some time, and we've been seeing this coming, yes; but only recently have we firmed up our opinions and made decisions that are solid enough we are finally willing to state them outright even in the face of ridicule.

Why do we have that need? At this point, on THIS topic, I don't think it's to seek the approval of others. Rather it may be in order to try to influence or persuade others, as some have said repeatedly, "before it's too late." So speaking is necessary for that process, too.

And yes, it IS too scary, too dangerous, as a rule, for individuals to act alone. Each of us needs to find others who believe as we do, who take it as seriously as we do, and who will be willing to take action once we decide exactly what actions will be most effective. How do we find those others with whom to unite in a Resistance if we don't talk about this?

(Again, all this was answered in some posts and articles here.)

The spilling of blood has often been quite futile, you know, not achieving what was intended at all. That does not mean I am unwilling to take vigorous action or to have my own blood let; it simply means I want any such sacrifice I may make to be "worth it," not a waste. (There's a reason soldiers often refer to killing as "wasting" someone.)

However, the monks who set themselves on fire in protest of the American military presence in Vietnam made a powerful statement and it DID have an effect on many who saw those films. Their sacrifices did not prevent many years of slaughter and destruction in their country, though. Would THAT be a good way to sacrifice myself to get my point across? I have to consider all options for feasibility and effectiveness and not throw away the one life I have!

I want to do the most I can do to intervene and turn things around. But I do NOT want my actions to be in vain.

And don't forget this one last thing. There are plenty of examples in history where powerful words written and spoken by eloquent, inspiring, and persuasive people have been used to unite others in rebellions and revolutions which might never have emerged without such "verbiage."

Words represent ideas, and ideas are what we humans unite around. THEN we act on our strongest beliefs. Things simply tend to come in a certain order.

Looked at from another angle, GWBu$h would see a verbal challenge made directly to him as something he would have to refute -- taking action to demonstrate that he "bygod means what he sez," given his primitive fondness for machismo. I think he has proven already that he will do even the most reckless things, in part purely because he was told he should NOT do it. It's that old gamesmanship thing, based on a dare, a challenge!

Is THAT the sort of "taking action" that you would respect? Surely not!

And thoughtful, serious people are not going to throw their health and their lives away heedlessly but would prefer to make the most of whatever we CAN do.

By all means, action IS called for; and you might be very surprised by how many of us "keyboard warriors" are also both planning and already doing quite a lot.

Please keep in mind, too, that DU rules prohibit any incitement to violence -- which is a good thing, I think. We can discuss the possibilities of what actions may be effective short of that, and surely there ARE still other effective steps we can take.

I rather doubt that most individuals will get to the point of acting if they can't talk it all over first, though. That's just part of the process -- a necessary part for most people.

Does this answer your questions?

Now I have one for you. You seem to agree with most of the premises of the OP, yet you say nothing at all about what YOU are DOING about it! What's up with that? And what ARE YOU doing?

[bobbolink]

101. "but not necessarily to spread the word all over that I'm doing them, at least at this point, lest I

be stopped from doing them before I'm done. Doesn't that make sense?"

That makes a great deal of sense.

I've become frustrated when people aren't willing to do anymore than vote, and hope for their chosen candidate. That does not a democracy make.

But many ARE doing more.... we just need to put our considerable minds together, and strategerize, because a lot of what we've done in the past hasn't worked, and we badly need new ideas.

[MedleyMisty]

99. So what are you doing?

Because you're here typing on a keyboard as well.

[TheWatcher]

123. Delete.

[L. Coyote]

76. This is completely wrong. This is not Germany, and we are not Germans.

There is a Congress, and they have powers they can exercise. And, we have elections. Unfair as they are, that is no excuse for not summoning the will and numbers to throw out a bad government. 2006 was step one, and we are completing that task in November.

Think not of Hitler, think of the dawn of a new Presidency. Think of who you want in Congress, and get to work on that NOW!

[mmonk]

81. There's a few comparisons one could make.

Shock and awe comes from that period.
Forged documents and claiming that the country being invaded was a haven for terrorists and that they were abusing their ethnic minorities.
Patriot Act and Enabling Act.
Homeland security from the "Heimat".
Embedded journalists.
Use of law to subvert the rule of law.

[L. Coyote]

86. There are shocking parallels, but, unlike the Germans, we are not doomed and

can do something about it.

Good thing for GW the election is this close, or his legacy would be first impeached Resident. :rofl:

Could still happen in a morning!!

[mmonk]

87. I hope you are correct.

bush may be leaving but the new order isn't and the old constitution is no longer with us.

[TheWatcher]

119. Your intentions are true, but yet again, people like you do not understand the magnitude of the

problem.

Yes, we have a Congress that has done nothing to attempt to stop this Junta, and continues to allow and enable them at every opportunity.

The current crop of criminals in charge is not going to be held accountable for their crimes. Period. they are going to get away with everything they have done. The people no longer have representation by their leadership. They do not listen to us, and treat us like cattle.

At the end of the thread, a very astute post referred to what is going on now in this current election cycle is the "Opiate The Masses", referring to the Obama campaign. I don't want to believe it is true, but that's exactly what it is.

We are far beyond the point where a simple election is going to solve the problem.

We have a corrupt government that consists of BOTH parties who are failing to represent the interests of We The People and this nation.

There is a document that explains quite clearly what should be done in times like this. Read up on it sometime.

And no it is not a call for V.R. But We The People need to do something.

And this sham of an election in November is not going to be the tonic that ails our ills.

The Dawn of a New Presidency, and the blind faith that will fix all that ails us is not going to be the answer. it's not that simple

Our Government needs an enema.

I pray that I am wrong, and you are right. No doubt you will piss all over what I have said with derogatory venom, because it falls far outside what you wish to believe.

Just understand it doesn't change the reality of what is going on around you.

Treating the symptoms of the Cancer won't cure you of the disease.

You must destroy the Cancer itself.

[DutchLiberal]

78. If the people *wanted to*, they could do lots of things. Like overthrow Bush/Cheney.

If they can do it in other countries, why can't Americans?

And on another note: no offense, but recently I have been reading a lot about the history of US interventions in other countries, ousting democratically elected governments and replacing them with dictators from which the local people suffered horrible for decades... so please, stop repeating the bullshit that the US has gone morally bankrupt only 'since Bush came to power', and that the country will regain moral authority as soon as Bush is gone. To millions of people around the world, the US never was a 'beacon of freedom' in the first place, not even before Bush. The hatred felt toward the US around the world is not only Bush's work.

I do agree that he made things 10 times worse and that he is the worst US president in history. I hope he gets send to The Hague sometime. The Dutch people will gladly take him. I'm afraid our political leaders won't, since they're such close friends to Bush. :(

[man4allcats]

84. Very well said. Though I too still entertain

some hope that there may yet be some accountability in store for this rogue administration after January, 2009, I regret to say I doubt it will happen. The genie is out of the bottle now, and I'm afraid there is little chance of getting him back inside.

[liberal N proud]

88. I think we only no a portion of what the bu$h regime has done

in our names.
We will learn as time passes of the atrocities this regime has unleashed on the world at the expense of the good name once held by the United States.

[TheWatcher]

120. Just like the Germans learned over time what Hitler did in theirs.

[Baby Snooks]

89. But some of us are not good Germans...

Some of us have spoken out and will continue to speak out which the few Germans who did regretted although we may regret it as well.

The big difference is those we elected to speak for us are not. Madame Speaker is complicit in the shame our nation will carry. The "good Germans" in her district need to decide for the rest of us. The rest of us want the Empress removed along with the Emperor.

There is something about this post that I find offensive because it implies that silence is acceptable simply because our voice is not heard. But also because we have spoken out. The majority of Germans, the "good Germans," did not. Not out of fear. Out of complicity.

We are not Nazi Germany. Not yet. If our voices are silenced, we will be. And the Empress will click her heels and salute the Reich.

[arrested_president]

92. You Always Were

what is happening in Iraq can't compare to slavery and yet there's a thread here that overwhelmingly allows racist whites to say there shouldn't be reparations for OUR Holocaust

there are even snarky little white people with cute little canned answers for it - and, it's perfectly okay to say we shouldn't get anything - jokes, even.

WHY should we give a damn about people ABROAD when white people can sit HERE amongst US and see our tragedy STILL UNFOLDING and feeling more for seals than the black race

so, don't be surprised to find most of you are fascists - it took you long enough to notice

[DrCory]

94. Opposition to reparations...

equals fascism? Well, what do you know!

[dawgman]

97. As much as I hate the current Junta

All they did was bring the atrocities committed by the US (or Allies) into the open. We have been oppressing freedom and democracy for a long time. We have been torturing (or teaching others to do it for us) for a long time.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

100. Yep

n/t

[Horse with no Name]

104. Our country, as we knew it or thought it, is gone

Humpty Dumpty cannot be put together again.
What we have left is an empire that consists of corporations and the elite wealthy.

Many Americans are currently being appeased with their own version of "opiate of the masses"...that being the obama campaign.
It makes them feel good to hope and change but the reality is still that nothing is going to change.
The same dark men run this country from their dark bunkers and we are playing our part in going along with the fact that we "really" don't know this...when deep inside we really do.
We have a dry drunk cokehead with his finger on the football and he is itching to blow up Iran.
How exactly do YOU think this will end?
I have a pretty good idea...

[Karenina]

162. Collectively, Americans are MUCH WORSE. Why?

You have the history of Germany and access to information. The pictures of the current genocide are there for anyone daring enough to click. The accounts and cries of your own soldiers have been ignored. Those who truly wish things could be different cling to a childish hope that a sham election will accomplish anything. That helps rationalize not impeaching the *criminals NOW. Should Cheney manage to push the button, the resulting carnage will be on AMERICANS. He CAN still be stopped, but it will take REMOVING HIM FROM HIS OFFICE AND INTO A JAIL CELL.

[treestar]

163. The people being set up to be the scapegoats are the noncitizens

Illegal immigrants and legal immigrants and H-1b holders. Even on DU you see this. The foreigners are causing all of our problems. Yet ironically, they can't vote and didn't vote * and Cheney in. They didn't elect the Congress that though of the opposing party does not impeach both * and Cheney for their high crimes and misdemeanors.

Our economic problems are our own fault for going to an unneeded war on a credit card. Our immigration "problems" are a self inflicted wound. Yet we blame every job loss on foreigners, as if no new jobs can be created. Lou Dobbs goes on and on every single night about the great "problem" of immigration, when that problem is a little one compared to our failures of diplomacy, bullying, attacking a country that never did anything to us on false pretences, using 911 as an excuse to eviscerate our Bill of Rights, and going deeply into debt, all of which foreigners could not do and did not do.

The Halliburton detention centers are for illegal aliens. They probably won't kill them, but they won't deport them either. What's the use, when they can just return the same way they came? Enforcing immigration laws that are so much more restrictive than the demand for cheap labor would take a police state, too.