Paper or plastic? Either bag would cost you 20 cents extra under Nickels' plan

[gateley]

Yay, Seattle! This makes so much sense. Instead of moving from plastic to paper to resuable, go directly to reusable.

By Sharon Pian Chan
Seattle Times staff reporter
PREV 1 of 2 NEXT


MIKE SIEGEL / THE SEATTLE TIMES
To reduce trash, Mayor Greg Nickels wants Seattle shoppers to pay a fee on all disposable bags - paper and plastic - at grocery, convenience and drug stores.

Customers would be charged a 20-cent "green fee" per bag used at the checkout line. If approved by the City Council, the fee would take effect Jan. 1.

"The answer to the question 'Paper or plastic?' should be 'Neither,' " Nickels said at a news conference Wednesday morning. "Both harm the environment. Every piece of plastic ever made is still with us in the environment, and the best way to handle waste is not to create it in the first place."

Nickels said he wants to encourage shoppers to use reusable bags. The city plans to distribute one free bag to every household before the fee would go into effect.

more...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004322352_webbags02m.html

[rwheeler31]

1. cool

[nam78_two]

2. Sounds like a great idea

:thumbsup:

[babylonsister]

3. Great idea! That would get people off their arses and

buy the reusables; I do, and love them! Someone on DU sent me here:

www.goagainbags.com

[gateley]

6. DELETE - Dupe

[gateley]

8. Thanks -- hadn't seen that one! Here's another --

www.reusablebags.com

[SharonRB]

17. And another

http:///www.1bagatatime.com

I bought about 15 of these a year ago and use them whenever I go to the grocery store, where I get a $.05 discount for each bag I use. I typically use 6-8 of them each time I shop.

[gateley]

20. This is great --

I went gung-ho on resuablebags.com buying a variety of sizes. I invariably end up buying more in the stores than I think I will, though, so pretty much bring in the large ones most of the time now.

I also keep meaning to bring them into department stores, too, but keep forgetting.

[SharonRB]

46. Yeah, I always seem to forget when I do anything other than grocery shopping

Especially the drugstore. If I'm just buying a few small things, though, I tell them I don't need a bag.

[gateley]

61. There are several sizes --

including just-the-right-size for drugstore stuff on www.resuablebags.com.

So far, it's the best site I've found that offers a large variety of sizes and "styles".

[renate]

93. thanks for the link!

(You might want to fix the spelling, although it's pretty easy to figure out what it's supposed to be. :))

CafePress has lots of canvas tote bags with just about any design you can imagine--literally thousands of them--for $16-25.
http://www.cafepress.com

[SharonRB]

98. That's a pretty high price as far as I'm concerned

At 1bagatatime they're only $1.99. They're great bags -- washable fabric and they have an insert in the bottom that keeps the bags sitting flat when they're loaded up with groceries.

[gateley]

104. Something for everyone --- but you think THESE prices are bad...

I read an article where it's become Hip in Hollywood to carry reusable bags. Purse designers are getting hundreds and thousands of dollars for them. I can't really snark too much, because often what becomes a style there, is emulated by millions, so the end result is good, I guess.

[SharonRB]

108. I agree

If people are willing to pay those prices, it's okay by me. I just want them to stop using paper and plastic.

[gateley]

117. And thanks for the cafe press mention -

hadn't even thought of that.

Too late to correct my spelling. I've included the link in a couple of other posts, so hopefully I got one of those right. And as you said, not too hard to figure out. :hi:

[JBoy]

4. Ruh roh.

:popcorn:

[splat]

5. "...wants to encourage shoppers to use reusable bags" -- actually, he's fining people who don't.

It's not creative solution -- just more govt. control.

(Why not give everybody a bag, then charge if you don't use it. My city won't pick up my cans, bottle and paper if I don't put them in the recycle bin they gave me.)

[mondo joe]

10. Isn't that in effect the plan?

Everyone is getting a bag - you get charged if you don't use it.

[krkaufman]

39. You didn't even have to read the article, just the excerpts above say ...

The city plans to distribute one free bag to every household before the fee would go into effect.

So they *will* be giving-out bags.

And maybe they should offer early purchase discounts to get more reusables into people's hands, but at least Seattle is making an effort. Kudos to government intervention on this one. Way to lead.

[Clark2008]

78. Oh, yeah - and one bag carries a whole family's week of groceries.

:eyes:

I agree with the poster above. It's not creative, it's more government control.

[mondo joe]

87. What's your suggestion?

Do you think $3 for 3 bags that can last several years is an unreasonable price?

[krkaufman]

122. Also consider that some stores offer a discount off the bill if one brings in their own bags. n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3097026&mesg_id=3103291

[IronLionZion]

97. Reusable cloth bags cost like a buck each

:wtf:

Many people keep these bags in their cars at all times and many of the trendy grocery stores where elitist liberals shop already sell these bags. I want to see them at the mainstream stores where people like me shop.

[krkaufman]

120. A HyVee store in my hometown, anything but an "elitest liberal" chain ...

... a ridiculously ignorant label ... carries the bags. And they already charge for use of plastic bags -- along with offering a discount to those who bring in their own reusable bags.

The one time I brought in bags to the store, I brought in 8 bags and received either 5 or 20 cents off the bill per bag I'd brought in, 8 bags -- even though I only used 2 of the 8 bags. I haven't been back to test whether they've adjusted their practice (or if the night shift had just made a mistake).

[IronLionZion]

124. glad to hear it

Trader Joe's and many organic co-ops carry them too but I don't see them at Cubs or Rainbow or Jubilee or Giant Eagle or whatever...

I was feeling bitter because a lot of the people who shop at the organic co-ops like to look down their nose contemptuously at people who can't afford it. It makes them feel superior.

[krkaufman]

119. One man's control, is another man's guidance.

... as no one is being "controlled." People will still be free to use paper and/or plastic, but they'll face a surcharge that attempts to account for the unnecessary waste introduced by the practice. This is no different than for those states that charge bottle/can deposits, and offer deposit returns.

Do I think more should be done to make bags available, in the beginning? Yes. But we need to start making steps to curb our wastefulness.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wizard777]

54. Not really. You can refuse to buy a bag.

When you start running the items out to your car from the check out line. The store may want to buy the bags for you.

[mondo joe]

58. Yes, being a rude anti-social asshole is always a good response to every effort

to improve the general welfare.

[Wizard777]

92. Well yeah, that can be part of a protest. Some call it civil disobedience. But that works too.

[mondo joe]

96. Yeah! Civil disobedience of cities trying to prevent further damage to the environment.

Now that's a cause to rally around.

[Wizard777]

101. I like my plastic grocery bags. Those I don't use for trash. I recycle at the store.

[mondo joe]

102. Lucky you - they'll be available in Seattle for the low price of $0.20

:-)

[tavalon]

107. Do you understand the impact of the making and the shipping and the passing out of the plastic bags

that you like so much. They are damaging the earth. Do you like the earth? I mean really, get over your bad self. We can't force corporations to do the right thing but we can emulate doing the right thing.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. Here in my small Oregon town I take a reusable bag every time

I shop at Ray's market, they sell the bags for 99 cents.

[axollot]

83. ya, I paid .99 cents for all of mine too from my local store n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

9. having to fork over more money at the grocery store

Yeah, that's just what I need. :eyes:

[gateley]

11. You don't have to fork over more money --

just buy the bags, which is the GOAL of a step like this.

For those who can't afford it, perhaps environmental groups could provide them.

Our Oregon poster said his/hers cost 99 cents.

I'm really at a loss as to how people could find fault with something like this. :shrug:

[tavalon]

26. Yep, most of the stores around here are selling them for 99cents

or 5 for $4.00.

I'm quite sure we can find ways to get them into the hands of the poorer among us and the rest just need to get used to placing a bag or two in the backpack along with the myriad of clothes that one carries in the spring that is Seattle. It's a fucking fantastic idea.

[tavalon]

27. If your mayor decides to do this, you can write me and I'll send you a half dozen bags

My pleasure.

[Angleae]

100. If your mayor decides to do this

he won't be mayor come the next election.

[tavalon]

106. How do you see that?

Seattle likes this stuff. It's the outlying places that are less enamored of feel good environmental policies.

[Angleae]

125. Yes they do.

Until they are affected by the inconvenience.

[htuttle]

12. I get a 10 cent discount for using a cloth grocery bag where I shop

Sort of the same thing, I guess.

[gateley]

14. One of the responses

on the Seattle Times website cited they'd done a similar program in Ireland. It got to the point where it was kind of embarrassing walking down the street with a disposable bag. It really raised awareness - and I'd love to see that happen here, too.

[tavalon]

28. Yeah, I saw that same article and stated my desire to have that happen here

Wow, am I ever powerful!

[greyl]

32. Cool, where the heck is that? nt

[orleans]

43. whole foods does it where i live. 10 cents off per bag that you bring

and use.

[Mist]

13. Whole Foods recently started selling smaller reusables for $1, and

larger ones (and they're BIG) for $2. Even the Harris-Teeter here sells reusables! I've bought a bunch--useful for more than just shopping.

on edit: there's a .05 refund for every plastic or paper bag you don't use.

[Kermit77]

15. Food prices are already high enough. I can't hardly afford groceries now as it is.

[raincity_calling]

19. so don't use the plastic/paper bags.

Moving away from the disposable bags will save the grocer
money, which may mean lower food prices.

You can get reusable bags for cheap and sometimes free. I have several that I have gotten from the State Democratic Party.

[gateley]

21. Sigh. nt

[sam sarrha]

16. we have cloth.. does the money go for shower/sink limiters, etc, green projects??

we have 1.5 GPM on all sink spouts and shower heads, i have a shutoff valve on the shower before the head.. soap up and turn it off till i am ready to rinse.

[axollot]

91. My daughter is 4 - we take a shower together...

it saves water and she is learning how to wash her own hair and rinse without it getting into her eyes. This also eliminates the need for baths. I've done this since she was a newborn too.

Cheers
Sandy

[Irishonly]

18. I have reusable bags

I love them and have been using them about a year. In CAm at least in the Inland Valley, the large grocery store chains also provide bins for recycling all plastic bags. I put my any plastic bag I have in there.

[WillowTree]

22. I've had the reuseables for awhile now and they're great!

They're easier to carry, hold more without worrying about them splitting or breaking and I don't have to take them back for recycling.

If you have Miejer's stores near you, check theirs out because they're awesome. They're made of a slightly sturdier material, are well reinforced, they're deeper, they have a pocket on the front and two separaters on the inside to keep taller items upright. And they cost the same 99 cents as at other stores. I couldn't make a bag anywhere near as nice for a buck.

[Withywindle]

23. Good!

Really, cheap or free tote bags are NOT hard to come by.

At an average Chicago street festival, you have to beat off all the organizations who want to give you one just for signing a petition or giving them your email address with a stick. If you can walk through without three of them hanging off you when you leave, you're moving too fast to appreciate the sights.

[tabasco]

24. Great idea. Reduces litter and saves trees.

You have to buy the bags in Germany.

[ruiner4u]

41. EXACTLY!...

And thats been going on for close to two decades if not longer.


The one upthread comment I read "so that will make my trip to the grocery store more expensive" is what is wrong with the mentality of the country today. We are in a sad state when we are bitching about a little upfront inconvenience while forgetting about long term benefit.

[Bill McBlueState]

51. no, what's wrong with the country today

Is that a 20 cent per bag fee actually represents a bit of a burden to people. Try having a little sympathy for the poor.

[mondo joe]

55. If you read the story you'll see free bags are par of the plan. NT

[Bill McBlueState]

56. sounds good to me

Although, "one free bag to every household" is only a step in the right direction for a family of 3 or 4 who makes a couple of big shopping trips per month.

All I'm asking for is a little bit of understanding that getting nickled and dimed is harder on some than on others.

[mondo joe]

57. I am confident there will be a variety of free bag offerings - Seattle does it already.

And given that a $1 bag can last for a year or longer - or that existing plastic bags can be re-used - the impact seems very small relative to the benefit.

If there were no provision for free reusable bags I'd agree that it's unfair and burdensome.

[ruiner4u]

115. Understanding for whom? You?

You are on a machine that costs more then a thousand dollars and im sure you are paying some kind of monthly subscription fee...


As for the real poor who cant afford computers and internet, im sure they are used to scraping by and reusing any resource they have...
Instead of using the grocery store bags as trash bags <which I did when I was broke> they will have the cunning to save them and reuse them...

But yeah, its an attack on the poor.. :yawn:

[ruiner4u]

114. then maybe people should save those bags and reuse then...

I admit cell phones, cable, and internet are must haves and will burden the poor if a plastic bag costs 20 whole cents...



Are the poor exempt from conserving and reusing?


Try to have some sympathy for people with the common sense to re-use something.

[tavalon]

25. Fantastic!

I think it's better than the 5 cent rebate, though I must admit, I'm biased because I've already gone to using reusable sacks. At least I've stopped getting the weird looks at QFC and Fred Meyers - they're selling their own versions these days.

[tavalon]

29. Beyond magnificent!

I'm so pleased. I hope this passes.

[gateley]

33. As do I --

will you keep us apprised?

I usually try to check in with the Seattle Times daily, but don't always. My brother (who still lives there) isn't as all-fired about it as I am, so I doubt if he'll be on top of it.

Seattle has always been in the forefront of environmental policies (I know we were a pilot city in recycling), so I have high hopes!!

And I'll be moving back soon, I hope, so I'll be next to you in the checkout line with my reusable bags, too! :hi:

[tavalon]

45. Well, I'm in Bothell

So close, so close and yet. No, actually, it's fine out here but I do miss living in the city. Seattle is one of those rare birds where the populace commutes out of the city into Microsoft land to work and then commute back to Seattle to live. Reverse commute.

I'm quite sure you won't need me to let you know if it goes through. It will make Mike Nichols and Seattle famous.

[mondo joe]

47. That's not the populace.

And the bigger commute is into the city, as the cost of living has forced lower income service workers out of Seattle proper, but their jobs remain in the city.

[gateley]

64. OT -- in the OLD days

(I'm 55) many people lived in Bellevue because land, houses were far less costly than in Seattle, and almost everyone had to cross the bridge to come into the city to work. After Microsoft and the tremendous growth over there, it seemed to me that it was almost evenly split. I worked in Redmond and at times didn't leave work until 7pm because the bridge (520) would still be backed up.

[mondo joe]

76. True - there's been a reversal. Lower income people more often live outside the city.

With the exception of low-income housing, it's very hard to live in Seattle.

[Fox Mulder]

30. I like that idea.

People should be using reusable bags.

[gristy]

31. Excellent!!!

Keep some cloth bags in the trunk of your car and pull them out before you walk into the supermarket.

[gateley]

34. Reusablebags.com

has different sizes -- even one you can keep in your purse just to have for unplanned times.

[1]

35. how about this...

enlist all of the corporations suddenly becoming "green" (and i have seen so many ads lately) to provide the reusable shopping bags for free. they could put their logo or marketing phrase on the bag, whatever, but provide the bags for free.

would anyone here have a problem with that? if we hold the new "green" corporations feet to the fire in the effort to provide this service?

does it matter what the bag says?

what do you all think?

[gristy]

36. free would not be good

The plastic and paper bags are free, and people throw those away.

[1]

37. that's what i was thinking...

but show me a corporation that doesn't want their name or product to be promoted.

ok. use that. dive into their sick little world for a second and make them want to be part of the solution.

i don't care if my cloth bag says "greenpeace" or "windex green window cleaner".

the point is that it is a cloth bag.

and if you add the "bag tax" to the mix, free cloth bags vs pay for bags...

it could work.

[gateley]

38. Sounds good to me! nt

[Bill McBlueState]

53. well, I think so too.

I totally agree that we need to stop using so many disposable grocery bags.

The solution you're responding to acknowledges that 20-cent fees and 99-cent bags, while not too expensive, represent more of a burden to some shoppers than to others. Enlisting corporations to provide free reusable bags helps to alleviate that concern.

[LeftyMom]

123. Plenty of them do that now.

I've got free tote bags from:
Comcast (they suck as a cable company, but they give out great tote bags)
VegNews (really, really good bags!)
Wildwood soy (green recycled bag like Whole Foods has, but with their logo)
and I don't know who all else. Go to any trade show or similar event with vendor exhibits, and you'll wind up with plenty of tote bags. If you don't get invited to those kind of things, hit up somebody who does.

I bet you a dollar if you go to your local earth day thing you'll score some free tote bags to carry all your sample loot around in, that would work nicely for groceries.

[TreasonousBastard]

40. Just make free shopping bags illegal and...

force everyone to bring their own.

No excuses! Don't like it? Tough shit-- don't eat.

BJ's doesn't bag your stuff, as I found out first time I went there. You either buy enough to fill the cart and wheel it out to your car where you unceremoniously dump your crap in the trunk, or you bring your own bags.

Every other store in town sells neat reusable bags for a buck. I bought a bunch of them because they're handy for a lot of things. Insulated bags are 3 bucks, and very handy for taking stuff to potlucks.

[1]

44. "No excuses! Don't like it? Tough shit-- don't eat."

nice.

i aspire to be a progressive like you...

[TreasonousBastard]

99. You are preferring perhaps libertarians who...

say you can do anything you want no matter what it coasts or who it hurts just because you feel like it?

No-- carrying your own little bag into the store like millions of Europeans do is not exactly a great sacrifice. It is a sensible and realistic solution to a problem and those who find it such an onerous burden may freely go hungry in protest.

[bighart]

48. This is such a great idea, let's make those who can't afford much

in the way of groceries pay for the bags too! Is anyone stopping to consider the effect this will have on the poor or the homeless? The price of the bags is already factored in to the price of the groceries, this will make people pay twice for them. Are the stores going to lower the prices on the products or do they just keep it as a little extra profit for their efforts? Whats next, will they start charging for the privilege of using the plastic bags in the produce department as well?

[mondo joe]

49. Did you read the story?

[bighart]

50. yes i did.

store keeps 5 cents for the "cost of implementing" the fee. BS the cost of the bags is factored in to the price of the food and would more than cover this. And just because it won't be added to produce yet does not mean it won't be at some point.

[mondo joe]

52. So didyou catch the bit about the city giving out free reusable bags?

Or that a part of the fee on an ongoing basis would provide for more reusable bags?

Furthermore, this is in Seattle where you can barely go a day without being offered a free or nearly free reusable bag. As someone who works with human service non profits I can also assure you that if this law takes effect, the non profits working with homeless and othe financially marginalized people will source bags for clients.

[bighart]

59. 1 free bag from the city. Whoopee. I can't remember the last time

I brought home 1 bag fromt he grocery store. As for non profits giving reusable bags to the homeless, just where are the homeless going to keep them?

[mondo joe]

62. So you're too poor to buy a $1 bag amortized over a few years, but you can buy

multiple bags of groceries? I can assure you, Seattle will have abundant free reusable bags - they're there right now.

As to the homeless: Where are they keeping their groceries? (Let's ignore the fact that the homeless describes a wide variety of people, including those in shelters, transitional housing, couch-surfing and other situations.)

Apparently you are of the belief there is no way to mitigate environmental harm while making it feasible even for low income people to not bear additional burden. I disagree.

[bighart]

79. My problem with this is paying for a reusable bag, and if you can't

that's fine we will charge you for the plastic bag that we are already charging you for in the cost of the products you purchased. Do you not understand that ALL overhead, including the cost of the paper or plastic bags is already included in the price of the groceries, it's called a retail mark up and is there for 2 purposes 1) to cover ALL overhead including supplies and payroll etc. 2) to provide a profit for the store. EVERY ITEM YOU PURCHASE HAS THIS COST ALREADY BUILT INTO IT. Make the damn reusable bags FREE, at least initially and DON'T CHARGE ME twice for a plastic bag. If you want to charge for the plastic bags then prices need to be lowered accordingly. I am all for getting rid of the plastic bags but let's think this through before we act, not just do something that makes us feel good because we did it.

[mondo joe]

81. You won't have to pay for a reusable bag. They're being given for free, and there

will continue to be sources -- Seattle businesses and non profits are already offering reusable bags.

The point of this isn't about the cost of the bags but about the cost to the city and the environment.

Additionally, the fee is implemented by the city, not the groceries, so the city can't cut the price in the grocery store = which per bag is minuscule.

[bighart]

88. you really don't understand retail do you.

[mondo joe]

89. Yeah, I do - but that's the not point of the law.

You don't seem to understand THAT.

[bighart]

90. i do understand the point of the law.

REDUCE THE NUMBER OF BAGS BEING PUT IN LANDFILLS. I am all for that. From what I see in the way this is to be implemented it is unfair to the consumer and will impact the low income dis-proportionally. It is an example of feel good legislation without considering all of the impact. Make the bags free. You already pay for bags as it is, you just don't see it directly. Subsidize the bags for those on public assistance. DO NOT CHARGE SOMEONE TWICE for the same thing. If you want to call it an "eco tax" then call it a tax and don't call a charge for plastic bags.

[mondo joe]

95. Point by point:

1. "REDUCE THE NUMBER OF BAGS BEING PUT IN LANDFILLS."

Good, you got that.

2. "From what I see in the way this is to be implemented it is unfair to the consumer and will impact the low income dis-proportionally."

The impact is the cost of one or more reusable bags which the city and others will provide at not cost, and for those paying personally the cost is minor - less than $5 amortized over multiple years.

3. "It is an example of feel good legislation without considering all of the impact."

To the contrary - the impact has been considered.

4. "Make the bags free."

That eliminates the incentive to reuse bags.

5. "You already pay for bags as it is, you just don't see it directly."

The paper and plastic bags won't be paid for if people simply use the reusabl;e bags instead.

6. "Subsidize the bags for those on public assistance."

The reusable bag expense will be subsidized for everyone.

7. "DO NOT CHARGE SOMEONE TWICE for the same thing."

Don't use the paper or plastic and you won't be charged for it.

[bighart]

103. Unless the retailers reduce prices

to eliminate cost of all of these bags from the price of their products then YES YOU ARE PAYING FOR THEM TWICE.
I don't understand why you don't see that.

[mondo joe]

105. You're not buying the bags unless you choose to not use the reusable bags.

And you're not paying for the bag -- you're paying the Green Fee, which mostly goes to the city for more environmental funding.

"Seattle Public Utilities would collect the bag fee from stores. The utility estimates it would bring in $10 million per year. About $2 million would be used to provide and promote reusable bags. The rest would be spent on waste prevention, recycling and environmental education programs."

So it's really up to you if you want to pay "again" or not.

[tavalon]

109. He's basing it on a plan that DID work in Ireland

It caused a shift in the public's perception of plastic bags and people who didn't use their own bags were looked at as wasteful.

[mondo joe]

110. And they estimated a 90% use of reusable bags. Sounds good.

:-)

[tavalon]

113. Yep

I think this would be a political winner.

[WillowTree]

116. Because it's impossible to conceive....

...charging those who choose to use the plastic bags would make it possible for the stores to avoid raising prices for everyone. It's the same principle as when cereal manufacturers (and many, many others) avoided raising the price of their products by just putting less volume of cereal in the boxes. One would think that someone with such a breathtaking grasp of retail marketing would know about that strategy.

[gollygee]

63. They should give people who can't afford bags as many as they need IMO

but if homeless people have space to store groceries, it seems like they'd have space to store a few bags. If they don't have space to store groceries, they'd only need one bag. Reusable bags hold much more than plastic bags.

[tavalon]

111. This is Seattle we're talking about

We're bleeding heart liberals here - of course everyone will have as many bags as they need at a subsidized or even free price. It's what we do. We don't do it perfectly or as effectively as we could, but we do bleed here.

[gateley]

65. Are you LOOKING for things to criticize?

I'm sure there will be plenty of bags for all and the larger goal is to stop adding to the landfills. How could you find fault with that?

[RadiationTherapy]

71. Ha. The way prices are, I find myself with only one bag more and more often. nt

[Mountainman]

69. Who do you think is going to give the money to the city to buy reusable bags?

Taxpayers that's who. So cut city services to the needy and buy reusable bags, great idea! I work for a county government and we are cutting services daily do to the economic slow down.

This is just another feel good law. You have some guilt complex going so you want at law that punishes other people for the wrongs you think you commit! Very Freudian!

[mondo joe]

75. Actually the fees will fund at least part of it. Who do you think pays for the recycle

and disposal of the bags? The city.

It's not cutting human services.

[JCMach1]

60. UAE is in the process of killing all but biodegadeable plastic bags

looks like Jute is the future...

[gateley]

66. It's exciting that there is a world-wide effort in this area. nt

[JCMach1]

68. They are moving very quickly : Here is what they do to Camels and other wildlife

The downside came from the English "Gulf News". It seems that plastic bags were responsible for over half of camel deaths in this rich emirate sultanate.

"Each year hundreds of camels die from ingesting the plastic bags left in the desert," says the top UAE veterinarian, Dr. Ulrich Wernery.

Curious camels, gazelles, sheep or cows nibble on the throwaway bags or ropes. The plastic calcifies in their stomachs into rocks, some as large as 60 kilograms. The animals then die painfully of starvation as they stop eating. Plastic is not biodegradable.

Wernery counted 30 carcasses in Death Valley. Most were young animals that were curious about the flying objects.

The government first placed a 25 cents levy on every bag but are now considering a ban and use only of paper bags... http://nwi.com/articles/2008/03/27/news/porter_county/doc9cb4c57d343df9a48625741800475e9c.txt

Next time you casually toss a plastic bag out the window of your car, remember this fact: hundreds of camels are killed every year by plastic left behind in the desert.

That fatal pollution from plastic bags and ropes carelessly dumped in the desert is nibbled on by curious camels, sheep or gazelles - until it kills them.

Rocks of calcified plastic, weighing anything from 10 to 60 kilograms are found inside animal stomachs every day by Dr Ulrich Wernery, scientific director at the Central Veterinary Research Laboratory in Dubai.

"Animals are brought here to see why they have died. We carry out post-mortems on camels, gazelles, sheep and cows. Every day we have a camel that has died in a camel camp. One in every two camel dies from plastic," said Wernery.

The plastic pollution situation has been getting worse and worse and shows no indication of relenting, said Wernery. "I've been here for twenty years and first noticed this about fifteen years ago. In more or less every camel we find plastic. Before, everything was biodegradable," he said.

As campers and day trippers to the desert leave their trash in the wilderness, camels are finding more and more plastic in their environment.

The animals ingest plastic bags and ropes which then calcify in their stomach. Heavy rocks or balls of string fill up the stomach making it impossible for the camel or gazelle to eat so it eventually dies of starvation, said Wernery.

"Animals are dying from this pollution. The biggest rock of calcified plastic I have come across weighed 60 kilos. It was in a cow. I call it fatal pollution," he said... http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidGN_24012008_10184326

[gateley]

72. That's heartbreaking.

I remember seeing news showing ducks swimming around with their head stuck in one of those 6-pack plastic collar rings, if you know what I mean. (I can't find a pic because I don't know what to call it.)

[JCMach1]

74. They can take months to slowly starve after ingesting one of these

Camels are opportunistic eaters and can often be found eating from dumpsters... :(

[Mountainman]

67. Stupid, how will it reduce trash? The same number of bags will be used but it will cost more to go

to the store!

Why not just take everyones take home pay before they get it? That way they wouldn't have any ability to do any of the things someone might consider wrong!

[mondo joe]

77. The same number of bags won't be thrown out. Reusable bags are good for many months,

and the use of paper and plastic bags will decline.

[tavalon]

112. I've had my reuseables now for three years and not a tear on them,

even the recycled plastic-like ones. I anticipate they will last at least another five years, maybe ten. I'm not sure. Months? Naw, not in my experience.

My biggest stumbling block on using reuseable bags was remembering to take them with me to the store. I have about 8 bags stored in each car and whenever I go for a big shopping trip, I put them back in the car after emptying. I still sometimes walk into the store without them but I just walk back to the car.

[gateley]

82. The point is to REUSE the bags -

Many last for years.

And many of them are made from earth-friendly materials so when they ARE replaces, they won't harm the environment like plastic bags do.

You sound like a Republican -- more interested in the MONEY than in taking steps to try to save our planet. :eyes: How do you want your grandchildren to live?

[DCKit]

70. People who shop at my neighborhood Safeway would go broke.

One item per bag seems to be SOP.

[demgurl]

73. I know it has been said before but what about the homeless and poor?

There are people (some of our own DUers) who live on the street or are homeless. These are the folks who can not afford the $.20 let alone the cost of the green bags. People have to face facts that some people just can not afford this. And to say that they can take plastic bags with them and store them is for me to ask store them where? They have no place to store them, I know because I know some of these people.

I use these green bags and so I am not against them. I brought up in another thread that rather then penalizing the poor we should have incentives for those who use green bags. One of my stores gives you 50 points, on your store card, for each plastic bag you do NOT use. Those points can be used toward free groceries. You get rewarded for using green bags and those who can not afford it do not get penalized for money they do not have.

[gateley]

86. That's GREAT incentive your store offers!

Storage for the homeless is a concern and would have to be addressed, I agree, but I'm sure a solution could be found. Nobody wants to add more burdens to the homeless.

And ideally, prices may go down since the stores won't have to be paying for their paper and plastic bags, so everyone would benefit in that way, too.

[axollot]

80. I recently made the change myself here in FL...

The reusable bags that the stores sell here hold a ton and are just great. If I'm only going in for a few things - I'll just use the bag instead of the little baskets as they are much easier to carry too.

I was told that everyone will have to use the reusables at least here in FL soon. I've not seen the law or anything regarding it - just what the store manager told me. *shrug*

Cheers
Sandy

[Reterr]

84. k&r.eom

[Reterr]

85. Delete-dupe.nt

[Mountainman]

94. I reuse grocery bags, cat poo in the plastic ones and popcorn in the paper ones.

[gateley]

118. To those of you who are lucky enough to live in Seattle:

Please contact your City Council members to let them know you support this measure.

As we know, sometimes it's the nay-sayers who make the loudest noise, so be noisier!

http://www.seattle.gov/html/feedback.htm

(scroll down to get the individual members' contact info).

Good luck! We'll be watching!! :hi:

[Rosemary2205]

121. errrr, um - Nickles' plan should cost a NICKLE. - not two dimes.

Well, I guess you could use 4 nickles. :)

Great for the environment - awful for the poor. They have a hard enough time even getting to a grocery store and paying for it, let alone drag 10 bags around.

[lonestarnot]

126. Shit!! too late to recommend! WAY EXCELLENT SEATTLE!

:applause: