Has the time come to end affirmative action and racial quotas?

[billbuckhead]

[angstlessk]

1. There are NO RACIAL QUOTAS...get over your self!!!

[billbuckhead]

2. Really? Corporations don't have them?

[angstlessk]

10. NO CORPORATIONS DO NOT HAVE QUOTAS...

IF they work for the government they must fill out paperwork regarding who interviewed for the job based on race and of course your reports to the fed govt is based on race, but I have never seen a company NOT given a job because they were 100% white...unless it was a minority contract OR they had litigation regarding racism against them...sorry it is a MYTH!

[gateley]

4. My last company was required to have

X number of minorities for every X number of people in a given job description/level.

[Breeze54]

5. Especially if they have Government Contracts.

It's the Law!

[angstlessk]

8. IT IS NOT THE LAW WITH GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS...

you have no idea what you are talking about..it is the law to submit reports regarding EEO but not the law to hire a percentage of 'other than white'...

[Breeze54]

12. Facts on Executive Order 11246 -- Affirmative Action --You are WRONG!!!

Facts on Executive Order 11246 -- Affirmative Action

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm

Revised January 4, 2002

A. OFCCP Mission Description

The Department of Labor's Employment Standards Administration's Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) enforces the Executive Order 11246, as amended; Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended and the affirmative action provisions (Section 4212) of the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act, as amended. Taken together, these laws ban discrimination and require Federal contractors and subcontractors to take affirmative action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.

* OFCCP’s jurisdiction covers approximately 26 million or nearly 22% of the total civilian workforce (92,500 non-construction establishments and 100,000 construction establishments). The Federal Government awarded more than $179 billion tax-payer dollars in prime contracts in Fiscal Year 1995.

* OFCCP requires a contractor, as a condition of having a federal contract, to engage in a self-analysis for the purpose of discovering any barriers to equal employment opportunity. No other Government agency conducts comparable systemic reviews of employers’ employment practices to ferret out discrimination. OFCCP also investigates complaints of discrimination. In Fiscal Year 1999, OFCCP conducted 3,833 compliance reviews. Moreover, OFCCP programs prevent discrimination. Further information about the OFCCP programs may be obtained from the Internet.

B. Operation of the Executive Order Program. The EEO clause

Each contracting agency in the Executive Branch of government must include the equal opportunity clause in each of its nonexempt government contracts. The equal opportunity clause requires that the contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. American Indian or Alaskan Native, Asian or Pacific Islander, Black, and Hispanic individuals are considered minorities for purposes of the Executive Order. This clause makes equal employment opportunity and affirmative action integral elements of a contractor’s agreement with the government.

Failure to comply with the non-discrimination or affirmative action provisions is a violation of the contract.

A contractor in violation of E.O. 11246 may have its contracts canceled, terminated, or suspended in whole or in part, and the contractor may be debarred, i.e., declared ineligible for future government contracts. However, a contractor cannot be debarred without being afforded the opportunity for a full evidentiary hearing. Debarments may be for an indefinite term or for a fixed term. When an indefinite term debarment is imposed, the contractor may be reinstated as soon as it has demonstrated that the violations have been remedied. A fixed-term debarment establishes a trial period during which a contractor can demonstrate its commitment and ability to establish personnel practices that are in compliance with the Executive Order.

If a matter is not resolved through conciliation, OFCCP may refer the matter to the Office of the Solicitor of Labor, which is authorized to institute administrative enforcement proceedings. After a full evidentiary hearing, a Department of Labor Administrative Law Judges issues recommended findings of fact, conclusions of law, and a recommended order. On the basis of the entire record, the Secretary of Labor issues a final Administrative Order. Cases also may be referred to the Department of Justice for judicial enforcement of E.O. 11246, primarily when use of the sanctions authorized by the Order is impracticable, such as a case involving a sole source supplier.

The regulations implementing the Executive Order establish different affirmative action provision for non-construction (i.e., service and supply) contractors and for construction contractors.

C. Executive Order Affirmative Action Requirements

More.....

[angstlessk]

15. nowhere in that diatribe was the word QUOTA...IT DOES NOT EXIST

and the law might be written but it ain't enforced...at all. I saw it with my own two eyes! Show me a company who had only white people working for them denied a government contract and I will show you a company in litigation because of racism...unless they are SUED they are free to hire whomever they want!

[Breeze54]

20. Diatribe? That's the actual law!!

:silly:

[angstlessk]

24. I understand..but I am sayin it is words...fancy, cute words nothing more.

a diatribe written as law..okay?

[Breeze54]

28. Def: diatribe - prolonged discourse, abusive speech or writing, satirical criticism

The AA Law is not a diatribe. It doesn't fit the definition of a diatribe.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe

[angstlessk]

31. It is a prolonged discourse...that is only a LAW when it is prosecuted when it is broken

so bascially it does fit the definition!

[Breeze54]

33. No, our conversation could be thought of as 'prolonged' but

Executive Order 11246 is a legal document, not a conversation.

[angstlessk]

36. Okay Breeze54...it is not a diatribe..but it is not a law because it is not prosecuted

AT ALL unless something is glaring or brought to the STARK attention to the people in charge!

[Breeze54]

39. LOL...it is a Law but you have to file the complaint with the EOC!

You have to complain to them and NOT the offending company. Don't tell them a damn thing! ;)

[angstlessk]

42. I'm learning so if there is a 'next time' no diatribe from me!!!!

I heard they did hire a black pile driver and wonder if he is the one who got killed a few years ago??

On edit: in fact just the idea that their hiriing a black pile driver was note worthy and talked about by people outside the company tells you everything you need to know about that company!

[Breeze54]

43. LOL... No worries.....

We all have to start somewhere, right? ;)

Only one AA man hired? You should have more go there and
apply and then if they're not, then have them all file!! :P

[angstlessk]

46. If I knew a bunch of black men who are qualified pile drivers I would!!!

hell there should be a website for black men to come together to tell their tales of not being hired and when they compare notes they can find out who is the racist company and file a complaint...

I have the domain blackintheblack.com and have not decided what to do with it...it is a thought??

[Breeze54]

50. LOL! - Maybe your local EOC office has that data on their website!

Go check it out! They all have statistics about all the complaints filed, usually.

Try this! http://www.eeoc.gov/

Laws Enforced by the EEOC

* Title VII of the Civil Rights Act
* Equal Pay Act of 1963
* Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA)
* Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Sections 501 and 505
* Titles I and V of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA)
* Civil Rights Act of 1991

More.....

Discriminatory Practices

Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA), it is illegal to discriminate in any aspect of employment, including:

* hiring and firing;
* compensation, assignment, or classification of employees;
* transfer, promotion, layoff, or recall;
* job advertisements;
* recruitment;
* testing;
* use of company facilities;
* training and apprenticeship programs;
* fringe benefits;
* pay, retirement plans, and disability leave; or
* other terms and conditions of employment.

More.....

----------------

Discriminatory practices under these laws also include:

http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_practices.html


* harassment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age;

* retaliation against an individual for filing a charge of discrimination, participating in an investigation, or opposing discriminatory practices;

* employment decisions based on stereotypes or assumptions about the abilities, traits, or performance of individuals of a certain sex, race, age, religion, or ethnic group, or individuals with disabilities; and

* denying employment opportunities to a person because of marriage to, or association with, an individual of a particular race, religion, national origin, or an individual with a disability. Title VII also prohibits discrimination because of participation in schools or places of worship associated with a particular racial, ethnic, or religious group.

Employers are required to post notices to all employees advising them of their rights under the laws EEOC enforces and their right to be free from retaliation. Such notices must be accessible, as needed, to persons with visual or other disabilities that affect reading.

Note: Many states and municipalities also have enacted protections against discrimination and harassment based on sexual orientation, status as a parent, marital status and political affiliation. For information, please contact the EEOC District Office nearest you.

More.......

[uppityperson]

66. "it is not a law because it is not prosecuted"?

[Breeze54]

21. contractors with 50 or more employees and government contracts of $50,000 or more are required

Non-construction (service and supply) contractors with 50 or more employees and government contracts of $50,000 or more are required, under Executive Order 11246, to develop and implement a written affirmative action program (AAP) for each establishment.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/aa.htm

-------------

II. Examples of Affirmative Action Programs

OFCCP federal affirmative action in action is exemplified by the EEO programs of the award recipients of the Department of Labor Secretary's Opportunity 2000 Award and Exemplary Voluntary Efforts (EVE) awards. Each year, these awards are given to contractors with outstanding affirmative action programs. Affirmative action refers to the aggressive recruitment programs, mentoring, training, and family programs that work to recruit and retain qualified individuals. Corporate programs nominated for a Secretary 2000 or EVE award include innovative outreach and recruitment, employee development, management development and employee support programs. Past Secretary's Opportunity 2000 award recipients include:

The Rouse Company (2001)

Union Bank of California (2000)

Eli Lilly and Company of Indiana (1999)

United Technologies Corporation of Connecticut (1998)

Pacific Gas and Electric of California (1997)

In addition, the Department recognizes other exemplary federal contractors through its EVE awards and exemplary EEO efforts of community organizations through the EPIC awards.

III. Successes

OFCCP efforts benefit real people through systemic contractor investigations and through partnerships with private industry and state and local agencies.

* In general, OFCCP programs helped many Fortune 1,000 companies and other major corporations break the glass ceiling for women and minorities. In 1970, women accounted for 10.2 percent of the officials and managers reported on the Employer Information Report (EEO-1) form submitted by federal contractors. In 1993, women were 29.9 percent of all officials and managers, according to the EEO-1 data.

* Many minorities and women have gained access to employment on large construction projects because of the Department's construction mega-projects. For example, on the Oakland Federal Building project, eight percent of the hours worked on the site were by women. On the New York Federal Courthouse project, 35 percent of the hours were worked by minorities and approximately six percent by women. In addition, OFCCP has recognized the affirmative action efforts of award recipient construction contractors like the Hyman Construction of Manhattan, New York and the Law Company of Kansas.

* Working women moved from welfare to forklift operator jobs and other non-traditional construction jobs in Philadelphia and Chicago through OFCCP outreach efforts.

* Native Americans are now employed on federal highway construction projects in conjunction with the Council for Tribal Employment Rights and the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. Both received Department EPIC awards for their efforts.

* More than 70 individuals with disabilities have been employed in computer positions in Columbus, Ohio through a partnership between the department and Goodwill Industries. This cooperative agreement has resulted in prototypes of workplaces specifically designed to welcome persons with severe disabilities.

* After highly publicized cases in which veterans were unaware of job openings, a Seattle company hired a specialist to address Vietnam-era veterans' issues.

* Because of affirmative action requirements, federal contractors are reviewing their employment policies, including compensation systems, and training their managers and supervisors to identify and correct discrimination and harassment in the workplace.

Following are real people who have benefited from federal affirmative action, according to the Council of Presidents’Women Speak Out: Affirmative Action Resource Guide:

[angstlessk]

23. the company I worked for had a written AA program..it gathered dust

and they were NEVER denied a contract...they had to include it in their pre bid proposal-whoopty doo!

[Breeze54]

25. Then they're lucky no one files a lawsuit with the EOC ...still doesn't make it right.

Your company sounds like a bunch of assholes.

[angstlessk]

27. They were..I was married to my husband who is black..and they were not only mean

one person backed my car into a berm and caused my tailpipe to become clogged so I could not start my car...one of the men put on a white pillowcase over his head and taunted me...HELL I SHOULD HAVE SUED!!!

[Breeze54]

30. Yes you should have sued. Maybe you still can, if you kept notes and

still have witnesses. I have filed a complaint with the EOC
because I was denied an application for a job and was told,
"We aren't hiring women for this job." :wtf:

[angstlessk]

35. Damn..glad you filed a complaint

My company did not even have anyone to complain to. If I did I would have been fired under any pretext. It was one 'good old boy' network and they watched each other's backs. Needless to say I quit. It was a horribe company all around...so I do not miss it at all!!

[Breeze54]

37. You don't complain to the company. You call the Equal Opportunity Commission

in your state and file a complaint.

That would be like complaining to the guy that robbed you, instead of the police!! :P

I called and then they sent me the papers to fill out for the complaint, then after
that they schedule a hearing but not until they investigate. It's a long process.
It takes time and patience.

[angstlessk]

40. Dern..wished I knew that then...been over 10 years now...

I would have loved to complain they were horrid people...from the owner down to the guy in the warehouse! I think the only black person we ever hired was a temporary secretary...and the temp agency sent her!!!

[Breeze54]

41. Well; at least now you know and you can help others having the same problem.

I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm glad you are out of there now. :hug:

Next time, file a complaint and stand up for your rights! ;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Yes it IS a law

You are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.

[angstlessk]

16. QUOTAS IS NOT WRITTEN IN ANY LAW..SHOW ME THE WORD QUOTA

AND I WILL EAT MINE!

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. No reason to shout

I believe those links have already been posted. You don't appear to be in a mood to read them and educate yourself.

[angstlessk]

38. I am talking about QUOTAS..not Affirmative Action...it was the word QUOTA

that is a reight wing talking point...if You want to contiue to talk like lush limpballs...have at it!

[uppityperson]

65. Makes it easy

to pick out which posts to not read though.

[angstlessk]

7. I worked for a company who had to comply with the EEO and fill out

forms to show the race of each person applying and the company was 99.5% white and they did not have a problem...EVAH...

If your company required it ...it was COMPANY POLICY...not a required quota to get government projects!

[Breeze54]

9. If "and the company was 99.5% white" ; then they DID have a problem!!

:silly:

[angstlessk]

11. It was a racist company..but they never lost a government job because of it...

that quota shit is just NOT TRUE!

[Breeze54]

13. Crooked people handing out Gov. Contracts doesn't mean

they weren't in violation of the law.

[angstlessk]

18. have you seen the pre-job paperwork required before one can bid a government job??

it's a frickin book! If you have the prerequisite- low bidder, insurance, bonds, history et all, and you have done government jobs in the past it is like a free ride!

[Breeze54]

22. It is still the law...that's why people hire EOO contract specialists and

consultants.

[angstlessk]

26. Sure if you are Coca Cola and don't want to get sued..not to get a government contract

it's the lawsuits they are avoiding.

[Breeze54]

32. Most Human Resources Admins do that job. n/t

[Breeze54]

3. Affirmative action is still necessary... for all

that are effected by discrimination, including women.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Sadly I fear it will take another generation or two

aka, well after I am dead

[Alexander]

17. Has the time come to end legacy admissions (affirmative action for white people)?

Funny how you're silent about that.

[angstlessk]

48. I got a star why not???

[libnnc]

19. You're on a mission, I see.

Cute.

[Forkboy]

34. You seem awfully obsessed with race.

[beezlebum]

44. yeah

two threads/polls- one asking if ppl support reparations for slavery and the other regarding affirmative action.

i've alerted yuckhead's (it's too easy, resisting the urge to use the f...) posts before, and i rarely use that power.

a quick search will bring up terms like "white blaming" and "non-whites" and frequent suggestions that "hillary's opponent can not win because of the white working class."

virtual sheethead. doesn't have to hide behind cloth this way i guess. sounds like a klansman's son i went to school with. always disingenuously and subtly bringing race into any and every discussion. :scared: :puke: :grr: :thumbsdown:

[Forkboy]

45. Over in GD-P he called Obama the "affirmative action candidate".

I'd say there's nothing subtle about it.

[beezlebum]

49. exactly.

he's less subtle than a klansman.

it really does send a chill up my spine.

what kinda surprises me are the numbers voting in these polls...

[Alexander]

51. I guess someone needed to take Herman Munster's place as DU's resident race-baiter.

[Forkboy]

54. I suspect the Admins will catch up with this one as well.

[jgraz]

60. Somehow I feel the mods may decide we're still one ignorant white guy over the limit

Let's hear it for quotas!! :toast:

[Alexander]

61. Oh, I expect he will slip up before too long...

With one of those well-known posts that goes, "I'm not a racist, but..."

They always do sooner or later.

[jgraz]

57. Herman's gone? Seriesly???

:wow:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=192358

:applause: :toast: :party: :bounce: :woohoo:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

52. Also here to say that affirmative action isn't quotas . . .

Amazing how the r-w propaganda of "reverse discrimination" takes off -- !!!

And yet it is obvious that no one would give up our "whiteness" because that privilege pays
off every day ---

[angstlessk]

53. touche...even the admision into Yale would not turn a white man black

you are correct!

[RoyGBiv]

55. I reject the question's premise ...

It is flawed for two reasons.

First, the term "affirmative action" does not have, nor was it intended to have a meaning that links it to a system of racial quotas. In fact, the opposite was the original intent, and, as has been argued time and again from the street corner to board rooms to the Supreme Court, applying a system of racial quotas to hiring practices, educational admissions qualifications, etc. is antithetical to the "color blind" intent of the civil rights movements of the 1960s. Roy Wilkins, executive director of the NAACP in 1964 testifying before Congress stated plainly, "Our association has never been in favor of a quota system. We believe the quota system is unfair whether it is used for Negroes or against Negroes. We feel people ought to be hired because of their ability, irrespective of their color. . . . We want equality, equality of opportunity and employment on the basis of ability."

Second, the question assumes that racial quotas, as such, are a clear component of federal law, and that is simply not the case. Racial quotas have been implemented by companies and governmental entities. However, individuals have on occasion subsequently sued and won so-called "reverse discrimination" cases as a consequence, and to make matters even less clear, the varied concurrent opinions issued in several of these cases differed in so many details that no single standard, no uniform interpretation, could be derived. (See State Board of Regents of University of California v. Bakke and McDonald v. Santa Fe Trail Transportation Corp. for examples.) As the laws and interpretation of those laws currently stand, companies, educational institutions, et al can technically be in violation of Title VII both if they have a racial quota system and if they do not, depending on the individual details of their employment practices and the judicial interpretation of the laws at any given moment in any given district. Thus the question of racial quotas (or more properly "racial preference") comes down to a question of judicial interpretation, which, since the enactment of the first civil rights laws in the 50's, has never been uniform.

The term "affirmative action" itself was first used by John Kennedy in Executive Order No. 10925. Companies contracting with the federal government were directed to "take affirmative action to ensure that the applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to race, creed, color or national origin." The meaning of the phrase was intended as nothing more than a directive for employers to take "positive" action to ensure racial discrimination was absent from the workplace. This was a contrast to the standard practice of the day of employers avoiding discrimination allegations simply by not issuing direct policies that required discriminatory practices, yet doing nothing if individuals made discriminatory decisions of their own accord and with no accountability.

At length, Lyndon Johnson issued Executive Order No. 11246, the fifth such order of a similar variety, which in effect has been amended and clarified several time since, to establish rules for government contractors in their hiring practices. What it did was require employers to establish guidelines and monitor themselves to make sure they were adhering to those guidelines else risk debarment. The intent was for hiring practices to be "color blind," which, it was argued, is not possible with any kind of racial preference system, regardless of who is preferred. This was the standard understanding of the time, declared by people like Edmund Muskie when he said, "Every American citizen has the right to equal treatment-not favored treatment, not complete individual equality-just equal treatment." Supporting the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Hubert Humphrey concurred when he said, "The title does not provide that any preferential treatment in employment shall be given to Negroes or to any other persons or groups. It does not provide that any quota system may be established to maintain racial balance in employment. In fact, the title would prohibit preferential treatment for any particular group, and any person, whether or not a member of any minority group, would be permitted to file a complaint of discriminatory employment practices.

Over the next three decades, however, the term was refined and twisted both legally and in the political vernacular, the latter resulting in a divorce of the legal meaning of the term with the popular understanding of that meaning. Every administration from Nixon to Bush II as implemented various aspects of affirmative action rules differently and changed the manner of enforcement. No single law nor rule governs "affirmative action" programs at the federal level, and no consistent manner of enforcing the most equitable intent of those guidelines has ever been employed.

[Two Americas]

62. excellent work RGB

Thank you for the informative and well-written post.

Since it is "primary" season I shortened your username. :)

[RoyGBiv]

64. Thank you ...

I tried.

I went to sleep after posting and half expected to login today and find someone trying to tell me Muskie was a right-winger. :)

[jgraz]

56. Wow, coming back from your "week off" with a bang, I see

Enjoy it while you can...

[ismnotwasm]

58. Hell no

Not even close to "the time"
Racial quotas. Nice.

[Two Americas]

59. affirmative action?

Do you mean this original affirmative action law?

XIII Amendment
U.S. Constitution

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[jgraz]

63. Yeah, he's definitely still pissed off about that one.