Cockfighting Fans Battle Ban

[The Straight Story]

Cockfighting Fans Battle Ban

Thursday, Apr 03, 2008 - 02:21 PM


COLUMBUS, Ohio -- A group trying to legalize cockfighting and other types of animal fighting has filed a federal lawsuit in Columbus.

American Game Fowl Society president Anthony Saville and five other plaintiffs are suing the U.S. departments of Agriculture and Justice.

Robert Aaron Miller of New Lexington in Perry County in central Ohio filed the suit. The plaintiffs argue that the federal law against animal fighting is unconstitutional.

The Animal Welfare Act was updated last year to make animal fighting a felony. The changes also made it illegal to cross state lines to fight animals or to advertise fights.

http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2008-04-03-0018.html

[rateyes]

1. I think those cocks(uckers) should all get into a ring

and beat the hell out of each other.

[and-justice-for-all]

3. they are not man enough for that...

so they have to use Animals....sick sucks.

[rateyes]

4. Better yet, make them get into a pit bull ring after stripping naked

and having bacon grease smeared all over their bodies.

[and-justice-for-all]

9. They are cowards...nt

[navarth]

2. I can't wait to see which clowns are going to support these fucks.

C'mon let's have ya. Bloodsports fans of the world, come on with the flames.

[I work for workers]

5. Good. Cockfighting is a great sport that should be legalized.

This is going to come off as trolling, but I'm dead serious. Cockfighting is a fascinating sport, and I fully support reintroducing it to our society. Before you all jump on my back, tell me which bird looks more abused:



The first is a beloved prizewinning gamecock. The second is an abused factory farm chicken.

I once told a friend I was an aficionado of the sport to gain street cred in a bulls vs bears argument, and in the process of learning enough to be convincing I became fascinated. Different breeds of cocks have different fighting styles, and by cross breeding powerful multi skilled fighters can be created.

I really don't have a problem with the sport. Cocks are naturally aggressive towards each other and I don't think people have any right to stop them from behaving that way. I do have a problem with the various myths that people spread about cockfighting. Here is some examples, along with a healthy dose of debunking!

Myth: Game cocks are abused animals.
Fact: Game cocks are very well treated compared to the average foul. They are kept well fed, well sheltered and are well loved pets.

Myth: Game cocks have only a brutal death to look forward to.
Fact: Game cocks are better kept then any of their companions, and after a successful career they look forward to a life time of breeding.

Myth: Weapons result in painful deaths for game cocks.
Fact: Gaffs, long knives and other weapons create cleaner injuries and in the event of a kill, a quicker, more humane death.

My favorite cock fight was a great gaff (needle) match between a brownred and a Filipino mix. The brownred was expected to loose because it is a flying breed. Flyer's will jump and scratch in a fight, and aren't particularly powerful in gaff matches (usually they fight as glashers, or cocks with spur knives). The Filipino was a mix of two grounders, or cocks that try to pin and peck. Such birds traditionally do better in gaff matches, as the needles are more likely to pierce the skin of a pinned cock. This fight turned out to be a big upset, as the brownred managed to jump up and spur the the Filipino in the face. The needle went right in his eye and killed him instantly. I thought the brownred broke its leg, because the gaff got stuck and it spent a few seconds twisting around. The owner pulled it out fine though, and retired it undefeated. He actually won $7,000 on the match, which makes it something of a legend among Filipino cock fighters.

[Beaverhausen]

6. I KNOW! I KNOW!

Both are abused. Cockfighting and factory farming should both be banned.

[I work for workers]

8. There is no comparison between gamecocks and factory foul.

Chickens living in slaughter houses face ridiculously brutal conditions and are bred for meat, not for health. Game cocks are bred for strength and health, and live dignified and meaningful lives. I don't pass judgment on people for eating chicken, why pass judgment on someone for breeding chickens for what nature intended them to do?



Millions of Americans accept and enjoy this sport. McCain was right when he called the UFC a human cockfight. They are both violent sports of honor, the purest sense of competition there is. Cocks are like people, they choose to do these fights. No one forces them to, and if they don't want to, they don't perform. Breeders spend years (generations if you take into account the history of the sport) developing gamecocks that have what it takes to be competitive. The cocks love it, they are naturally aggressive and are always looking to prove their dominance. Yet some clueless person always has to denounce it as animal cruelty and call it barbaric. Which bird looked more like it was abused?

Hard to answer with the ugly truth staring you right in the face. If it were up to industry breeders, we would have lost dozens of breeds by now. The fact is that game cock breeders do more to the preserve the integrity of the species then any other group, and treat their birds far better as well. Game cocks are well loved pets, while the chickens we eat were abused freaks.

http://www.sabong.net.ph/forum/

Before you respond, try reading the Sabong forum for a while to see what cockfighting is really about.

[lukasahero]

16. "why pass judgment on someone for breeding chickens for what nature intended them to do?" Seriously?

You think this is what nature intended these birds to do?

Then why would "Breeders spend years (generations if you take into account the history of the sport) developing gamecocks that have what it takes to be competitive"? Is it nature or is it man's manipulation for entertainment and greed?

[I work for workers]

20. Cocks have a natural desire to compete with each other and to protect hens.

They are fighters by nature, and in the wild their existence depends on it.

Much like equestrians have managed the bloodlines of their horses to promote that species natural abilities of speed and stamina, cock breeders have worked hard to create bloodlines that represent the highest potential of their birds combative skills. Beautiful new breeds have been created solely by the sports enthusiasts, birds that never would have existed otherwise. Poultry bred for meat or eggs have those traits enhanced by their breeders, why shouldn't gamecock breeders promote the abilities they desire? I might add that gamecocks, unlike farm birds, are bred to improve their natural survival traits, not to degenerate the species into an easy food source.

[mondo joe]

24. They don't, in nature, get into lethal battles as a rule. That's the point of the bluster.

:puke:

[I work for workers]

26. They don't get into lethal battles in cockfights as a rule either.

Sure is happens, but it's not the norm. Cock fights are reffed, and often broken up as soon as one bird proves dominant. These are beloved pets, and many owners don't want them to die unnecessarily. Depending on where you are the tradition varies. Game cock careers can be very short, in good ways or bad. Many only fight a handful of times before they either are killed or the owner saves them for breeding. In some real backwater places they last longer as fighters, but these cocks are very rarely fought to the death.

[mondo joe]

65. In cockfights the birds stay in the fight at human discretion, not their own.

And simply to amuse and provide for gambling.

Very sociopathic.

[mondo joe]

18. Nature didn't intend cocks to fight to the death. What a crock of shite. NT

[undercutter2006]

23. lol

at first I thought that was an amazing work of sarcasm, but now I am just not sure

still lol, just lol

[I work for workers]

29. Years ago, it started out that way.

It's kind of a funny story. I got into a stock market inspired argument about a bull fighting a bear. To gain the edge, I claimed I was secretly into animal fighting. To counter the immediate claim I was lying, I had to do some research. I had a long IM conversation in which I managed to stay one step ahead by reading, watching and learning everything I would about cockfighting. I was so convincing, I even convinced myself.

The more I learned, the more I realized how flawed my existing ideas about the sport were. Comparative to most of their kind, gamecocks live wonderful, pampered lives. The fights are at once less vicious and more entertaining then I had ever imagined. The species as a whole is dramatically improved by the genetic diversity cock fighting ensures.

It's one of my regrets that I never traveled to see a Kentucky, Missouri or Louisiana cock fight before they were banned. While I've seen countless online matches, I've never seen one in person. I know they exist, but I try not to engage in illegal activities. I one day hope to travel to the Philippines and see the famous cock fights there, and also hope the sport becomes accepted once again in our country.

Unfortunately, as a progressive North Eastern American, I'm unlikely to ever really fit into the cock fighting communities likely to exist in my lifetime. Such is life. :-(

[-..__...]

31. Two bugs enter... one bug leaves.

You'd probably get a semi-erection over this one then... Japanese Bug Fights

[I work for workers]

40. I love that site. It's a great way to introduce people to animal fighting.

I'm surprised I forgot about it on this thread.

Most people couldn't give a damn about bugs, would kill the JBF bugs in a heartbeat if they found it in their living room, and find it acceptable to watch a spider fight a scorpion or a stag beetle fight a crayfish. It's actually very interesting to see how they react to each other, and blows some of the expected conventions one would have in theoretical bug vs bug matches. Also noteworthy is that a surprising number of the JBF matches go to decisions.

[undercutter2006]

32. I just find it hilarious because I am an MMA fan

But never in a thousand years would I try to justify cockfighting by saying "Cocks are like people, they choose to do these fights." and then posting a picture of Sherk slamming Kenny Florian. You are one.... interesting.. individual.

That being said, banning cockfighting is just about the last thing I care about, considering that colonel sanders does a lot more damage to 'cocks' than any cockfighting enterprise, also I can't really identify with a creature that has the brain the size of a peanut, if I were a chicken I don't think it would matter what happens to me since I would have zero intellectually ability to understand anything at all.

[I work for workers]

37. LOL. I'll take that as a compliment.

Nice to find a like mind here, MMA doesn't get much chatter on this site.

[Lance_Boyle]

50. I enjoy MMA,

and boxing, and Greco-Roman wrestling, and "pure" martial arts competitions. It's not the blood or the brutality - it's the one-on-one competition. I do not think I would enjoy cockfighting, though, and I know for a fact that dog fighting sickens me. People should be free to make their own decisions about whether they wish to enter into such competitions, but I don't believe they should be permitted to make those decisions for anyone else, animals included. Or at least chordates. The bug fight thing is new to me.

[I work for workers]

51. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you like cock fighting.

I meant to say that I am also a fan of MMA. It doesn't get discussed that frequently here, so it was nice to bump into another enthusiast.

[Lance_Boyle]

57. I didn't take any offense.

:hi:

[Quantess]

46. You seem intelligent otherwise.

I agree that there are worse forms of animal cruelty than cock fighting, but it is still too inhumane to be legalized.

I have free-range chickens of my own. When there is more than one rooster in the flock, they generally keep their distance from each other, the dominant rooster occasionally chasing the beta rooster away. They would only kill each other if they were confined together in a small space, with no way for the loser to escape.

[dysfunctional press]

56. anything involving making animals fight for human entertainment isn't sport- it's sick & twisted.

it should be banned from the planet, and those involved should all be exiled to a far-flung island (that has been pre-stripped of all mammalian & reptilian species), ignored by civilization, and made to fend for themselves.

just spitballing, here...

[I work for workers]

60. Why only "mammalian and reptilian" species?

http://www.japanesebugfights.com/

You purposefully left birds and bugs out out of the picture. Does that mean you consider bug fights and cock fights to be acceptable? What about the countless high school kids who purposefully mix microscopic animals to observe their feeding behavior? Is that ok? If so, is it because it's for science, or because we have a hierarchy of animals we care about?

If the first is true, and science makes it ok, then what about genetic diversity of chickens that is preserved only by cock fighting? Should that buy the sport a science pass? If it's the second case, and some animals just don't count as much, then how do we justify caring about certain animals more then others? You implied you care for mammals and reptiles more then birds and bugs. Why decide on those categories?

If it's just a question of cruelty, which for many people it is, then why single out the best treated segment of the chicken population to denounce? Gamecocks are extremely well cared for, especially considering the horrific physical, mental and genetic abuse suffered by chickens raised for food. Gamecock breeds have their genetic integrity carefully preserved, are individually cared for, and are usually considered pets by their owners. Food chickens are bred to maximize their meat. This comes at the expense of crippling genetic deformities and extremely harsh treatment. The average gamecock, even one that's fated to die in the pit, has lived a life hundreds of times better then what the chickens we eat ever knew.

[dysfunctional press]

63. i just figured that it's kind of hard to stop flying birds from coming to an island...

and pretty unrealistic to think that all insects could be removed(as if mammal and reptiles could be...:crazy:)

but any flightless and/or groundnesting fowl that inhabit said island should definitely be included in the evac.

and maybe we could look into encasing it with large nets, out of reach of the inhabitants- but that would prevent birds from being able to land...i'll work on it. :hi:

[mondo joe]

64. There's a reason animal abuse is connected with sociopathy.

:-)

[dysfunctional press]

67. i'd like to see the sociopaths allowed to build their own society apart from ours...

maybe we could even install cameras and sell the tv rights...and allow wagering on who might or might not survive...

it could prove to be very entertaining. :woohoo:

[mondo joe]

68. My mother has proposed that frequently.

She calls it "Manland".

(In defense of mom - it's a joke.)

[cornermouse]

7. No.

No Way.

You don't honestly think you can justify cockfighting, do you?

I've been afraid to sell my extra roosters for fear some of the local cockfighters would get them and abuse them in a cockfighting ring.

This is just sick.

[I work for workers]

10. Gamecocks are far from abused.

So far as poultry is concerned, gamecocks are extremely well treated birds. They have much more in common with beloved pets then with the tortured animals they are unfairly portrayed as. Breeders invest significant time and effort into producing cocks that are mentally and physically fit to fight. They have little use for birds that have not been bred for the rigors of the pit.

Unfortunately there will always be a certain number of people who do fight inappropriate bird, so I certainly understand your concern with selling. This is the tragic side effect of forcing the sport underground. Too many serious American aficionados have left the game. To some degree it's now in the hands of people who don't care enough. Just as tragic is that the professionals take with them the purity of truly magnificent bloodlines that should be trained not just for show, but for fighting.

Many of the worlds most beautiful breeds have been created by cock fighters for the needs of the sport. Breeds have natural combative tendencies, and by interbreeding new types of fighters can be created. Look at this beautiful example:



It's a beautiful bird and one that really showcases the efforts breeders put into to developing strong blood lines.

[likesmountains 52]

11. How about a picture of the unfortunate loser of the match?

[walldude]

13. Got ya covered...

[likesmountains 52]

22. Thanks, doesn't look so pretty and pampered now does he?

[I work for workers]

15. Millions of cocks are killed each year in far more barbaric fashions.

No one bats an eye about it. Yet gamecocks die people decide to get high and mighty about the immorality of it. The outrage is the nonsensical product of ignorance.

The fact is that game cocks are very well treated birds. They frequently survive the fights, as the owners have little use in a dead bird. The oft criticized weapons are actually a safety measure; injuries caused by weapons are cleaner and heal quicker. In the event of a kill, they also result in more painless deaths.

Watch a cockfight (I'd link to videos but my stock links no longer work and I'm not sure how the mods would view that anyway) and you will be able to appreciate the realities of the sport. You will realize that the owners clearly care for their birds. Someone refs the match the entire time to keep the birds fighting and to make sure neither one gets hurt to badly. Breaking free of your unfortunate stereotypes will open a new world for you. It's fascinating to observe the different fighting styles the cocks prefer, how they act, and the beauty of the different breeds.

Cultures that don't try to ban cock fighting are very respectful to game cocks, far more respectful then US culture is. Game cocks are live a life of luxury and have the privilege of contributing to an ever improving genetic pool. By comparison the best most US cocks can look forward to is becoming a capon, most likely they will just end up dinner.

[Luna_C_06]

34. I just want to point out 2 things you've said:

1) "Cocks are like people, they choose to do these fights. No one forces them to, and if they don't want to, they don't perform."

and

2) "Someone refs the match the entire time to keep the birds fighting and to make sure neither one gets hurt to badly."

So the birds choose to fight, yet if they stop a ref makes them fight?

[I work for workers]

38. Cocks aren't exactly smart.

The refs job is to keep the birds agression directed in the right place and to keep them moving. If they legitimately won't fight, they won't fight regardless of what he does. If they decide to peck someones toe who gets too close, or just stand and crow, he gives them a nudge in the right direction. If you watch a fight, you will understand what I mean.

[walldude]

12. Does the bird have a choice?

Nice pictures..

[I work for workers]

17. Yes. Birds that don't want to fight aren't picked to.

The goal is to have your cock win. Breeders and handlers have no time for cocks that don't have game.

[likesmountains 52]

21. So they go to a nice retirement home in Florida or what?

[I work for workers]

25. They are probably eaten, along with the other 99.9999% of their kind.

The birds that can look forward to long and fulfilling lives of free range living, breeding and instinctual combat are the gamecocks.

[mondo joe]

27. "Instinctual combat" is a lie. You might fool yourself with it, but don't delude yourself into

thinking others buy it.

There's nothing instinctual about cockfighting. If you want instinct throw them into an open area without doing anything to enhance or incite aggression.

[cynatnite]

14. Well, some of them are mean...

not all. My daughter was at our neighbors when they raised them and got chased by a couple of mean ones. They managed to get out of their pens.

[mondo joe]

19. Fortunately your sicko vision is increasingly a thing of the past. Hopefully factory farming

will follow.

[flvegan]

28. Well, well, well...big surprise. We meet again.

Defending cockfighting, are we?

Which other bloodsports do you defend where the "men" put animals in the ring because they're too weak and pathetic to do it themselves?

[I work for workers]

30. Do we? I guess I'm happy I made an impression.

You would have to jar my memory though, as I'm not sure who you are.

You misunderstand the psyche of the sport. Cock fighters love their birds, and empower them to do what they want to do: fight. Gamecocks live a far better existence then the tortured birds we all eat.

[flvegan]

35. We?

I don't eat them.

You're advocating a sport based in selfishness and suffering. Your apples to oranges pseudo-strawman is absolute bullshit.

To make an impression via assholery isn't really something to trumpet.

[alittlelark]

48. Pit bulls are often treated the same...............

.....I still think creating a situation in which they NEED to fight (through aggressiveness training etc...) is WAY messed up.

If you feel the need to watch cocks rumble - go to Kauai...the wild chickens will get you off.

[LanternWaste]

52. In North TX, the "sport" is just as hillbilly & violent as would would imgaine...

Gamecocks in North Texas are abused. Don't know about your neck of the woods, but in North Texas-- the sport is just as hillbilly, just as redneck, just as abusive, just as violent as most people would imagine it to be.

Maybe there's a sterile, "humane" system of violence for it where you're from, but please don't try to pass that crap off as some type of 'industry standard'. Spend a week in Burleson, TX. Or Keller. Or even Watauga.

[TimeChaser]

42. If fighting cocks are all so healthy and well treated,

why don't you have an image of one that doesn't look badly photoshopped?

[I work for workers]

44. It's a sad state of affairs that you can't recognize a healthy bird when you see it:

http://72.232.193.182/classified/

[I work for workers]

45. Damn, Sabong.net is down. At least it means a lot of you are checking it out.

Hopefully it will broaden some horizons and open up more people to a wonderful sport with cultural significance throughout much of the world.

EDIT: back up again.

[The Straight Story]

47. So you want it legalized

- what regulations would you want imposed on it?

I can get your points you bring up here, maybe better than some other folks - so I am not slamming you on it all. Just wondering what you see as the good and the bad in it all, and what laws you would want to see relating to it all.

[I work for workers]

49. How to regulate it?

Off the top of my head I can think of some things to help maintain the dignity of the sport and safety of the animals. Keep in mind that most of these rules are already observed to a large degree:

1. Weight classes: game cocks should be, and usually are, matched against birds of a relatively equal weight. Fun fact: Boxing's bantamweight was inspired by a breed of cocks.

2. Stop the fight in the event of domination or injury. Again, this usually, but not always happens. Most cockers have little desire to see their bird killed and fights are often broken as soon as a clear winner emerges. Remember, gamecocks are beloved pets as well as sport birds. In a similar line of thought, a dead bird can't breed.

3. Hygiene: It should be mandatory to ensure the gamecock is clean before a fight, and to clean it during a fight if it gets too dirty. Weapons should be sterilized to limit the potential for infection. Someone with veterinary experience should be present.

4. Reffing: Someone should always be nearby managing the fight, and able to direct the cocks' action or seperate them.

5. The creation of some kind of regulatory agency, either by the gov or by the sport itself to ensure such rules are followed.

[The Stranger]

58. Hmmm. So yesterday it was how great a movie "300" was, and today you want to legalize cockfighting.

What's next? What are you going to support tomorrow?

(This should be good.)

[I work for workers]

61. I'd say Hillary or Obama,

but that would probably be more controversial then holding a cock fight while I watched 300.

[The Stranger]

69. Nothing controversial . . .

. . . if you want to hold your cock while you watch 300.

At least not around here.

[RebelOne]

59. Oh, and I suppose you think dog fighing is a great sport also.

You, sir, are an ass.

[MadHound]

62. Tell you what then,

Go work for an animal shelter where cockfighting is a popular "sport". Go out on the runs to farms and rings where the birds are raised and fought. Try to care for the birds that are brutally, badly wounded, who've been left to die. Or worse yet, in most cases, have to put the birds down. Do this day in and day out for oh, say a month(I'll go easy on you) and then get back to me on what a wonderful fucking sport cockfighting is. I've been there, done that, seen the ugly side of the sport close up and personal, and it's not pretty.

Oh, and when you get back, tell us how long it was before before you either threw up, or cried or both. My bet, less than an hour.

I fucking hate people who get their machismo kicks by fighting animals. If you want to get your bloodlust on, get in the fucking ring yourself, don't be a goddamn chickenshit letting an innocent animal get maimed and killed so that you can get your bloodlust on.

[LeftyMom]

33. The ban in perfectly legal under the interstate commerce clause.

And every state has a ban on cockfighting now anyhow.

Cockfighting is decidedly illegal, it's disgustingly unethical, and it's horrifically cruel. My opinion of the supporters of such barbarity could not be any lower.

[flvegan]

36. Yeah, well

if you worked for workers you might feel differently, Hitler.

[I work for workers]

39. Cockfighting aside, the interstate commerce clause is used

to justify way too many things. Any time the Federal government wants to stretch it's power, it creates a BS commerce clause excuse to do so.

[High Plains]

66. Ah, yeah, the interstate commerce clause...

good for overweening federal power. Do we really need cockfighting to be a federal crime?

The interstate commerce clause...that's the reason the Supreme Court used to tell California medical marijuana patients they can't grow their own medicine. Go figger.

[yewberry]

41. To Hell with that.

I'm good with cockfighting being illegal. Honestly, I think there's something wrong with enjoying watching blood and pain and death in other beings.

And does anyone know which "other types of animal fighting" are being championed by these shitstains people?

[LeftyMom]

43. Probably dogfighting. If I'm not mistaken the same law covers interstate transfer of fighting

materials, gambling, sale of fight videos, etc in those cases.

[mitchum]

53. MANY breeds of game birds will become EXTINCT if cockfighting is abolished

There are many breeds of game birds that are maintained ONLY because they are of fighting stock.
If the activity is stopped, there will be no reason to maintain the breeds.
So, that's a nice little dilemma for the hand wringers, isn't it?
The death of individual birds VS the end of entire breeds.
Which will it be?

[mondo joe]

54. I don't see the problem. Breeds are just artificially selected constructs that come

and go.

[mitchum]

55. You are correct, but then again, I don't know if that will be enough to rationalize it away...

for all of the reflexively sentimental.
I doubt it.

[RB TexLa]

70. They could have it like we have in Louisiana pass a law to make people shut up and then don't

enforce it.