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So My Pseudo-Libertarian Friend Just Emailed Me At Work To Tell Me How Bad Democrats Are...

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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 10:17 AM
Original message
So My Pseudo-Libertarian Friend Just Emailed Me At Work To Tell Me How Bad Democrats Are...
His subject line was "Democrats Are A Disaster", and it was basically a forward of a campaign ad for Nader/Gonzalez 08 talking about how Dems are the corporate party and the same as Republicans, etc.

Now, to be fair, I *do* agree that the economic difference between Republicans and Democrats has been shrinking (since 1980) for various reasons, and that the Dems of today are not nearly as progressive (or tough for that matter) as they should be, especially the DLC Dems who do seem to be watered down Republicans WRT economic issues. I completely understand the frustration with these Dems, but it's laughable to suggest they are no better than Republicans on a number of issues.

At any rate, my libertarian friend (who doesn't like Republicans either) finished his email with something like "at least McCain will let us keep more of our money instead of wasting it on stupid government programs".

Here was my response:


Actually, McCain’s economic plan could cost us BIG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6tYzJDGv1c&eurl (work-safe and short)

People seem to think they’ll lose money with a Democrat in office, when in fact this is not true for several reasons:

1)-The economy does better under Democrats- http://boom2bust.com/2007/12/12/is-a-republican-preside... /

2)-As I pointed out last time, just 3 Republican presidents are responsible for over 70% of our national debt. This debt combined with Republican driven “free trade” deals (which has led to massive trade deficits) have helped to kill the value of the dollar. Of course DLC Dem Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT, but both Obama and Hillary at least *claim* they want to reform it unlike McCain. At any rate, the dollar has fallen about 40% since Bush took office. Great, so he let us keep a little more tax money, but think about how much less your money is worth overall. Also, in 2005 we paid 1 billion dollars of interest on the debt Reagan created alone. The more debt we have on our National Credit Card, the more money we waste every year making interest payments on programs that don't benefit us, assuming they ever did.

3)-Republican presidents slash taxes and allow our infrastructure to crumble. In fact, according to the Wall Street Journal, “In its latest report card, the civil engineering society gave the nation's infrastructure a "D." Just like medical care, if you don’t practice preventative medicine and only practice emergency care (like when a bridge collapses in MN), it ends up costing tax payers FAR MORE money.

4)-The price of oil has tripled and the cost of gas has more than doubled. While it’s true that worldwide demand has increased, it’s quite clear that the Iraq War was the primary driver of this dramatic increase for us (there are some amazing graphs that illustrate the timeline). So we can look forward to our “economic stimulus check” in the mail. My suggestion is that you cash it at your local gas station, because the increased cost of energy will more than cancel out any little check you get.

5)-Republicans “deregulate” industries and we foot the bill. This happened in the 80’s with the Savings and Loan debacle when the taxpayers bailed them out. Now here we are again after laizzes faire capitalism failed (note: controlled capitalism kicks ass, but unregulated capitalism kicks *our* ass), and this time the economy is tanking in part because of the Sub Prime Mortgage Crisis. 30 billion dollars of tax payer money will go to bail out Bear Stearns while average Joe sub prime may lose his house. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iInrW_-GESw&eurl (again, work-safe and short) At any rate, how is bailing out Big Business with tax payer money considered to be a “free market” principle?
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. one billion in interest on our national debt????????
Try four hundred billion dollars and growing....
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. That was 1 billion in *2005* for interest ONLY on Ronald Reagan's debt
I figure Thom Hartmann knows better than I do in that regard, and that's where I got that particular figure.

If it's wrong, write Thom as I'm sure he'd like to know so he can correct it on air.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. it does seem to be low
National debt increased in Reagan's two terms by $1,873 billion which was 22% of all debt in 2006. Net interest in 2005 was $184 billion and 22% of that is $40.5 billion and that does not even include the fact that we have been paying interest on Reagan's debt since 1989. Figured at 5% that $1,873 billion grows to $3,893 billion in 15 years. Which would be 45.7% of the total debt in 2006 which would be $84 billion in interest in 2005 or $1.62 billion per week.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I agree, it does seem low. Numbers online vary greatly
This is the highest I've seen: http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/alerts/105

Maybe Thom meant to say "100 billion"? Or maybe my ears were broken that day. :)
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Just remember, the Republicans' motto is "Privatize profits, Socialize costs".
Edited on Fri Apr-04-08 10:38 AM by Tesha
In other words, let society pay the costs (pollution,
unemployment, what-have-you) while you, the fat-cat
rich guy, take the profits.

Tesha
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rndmprsn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. well when we pander to the "working poor" and then shit on them with free trade deals...
unfair tax structures and de-regulation of corp predators etc...

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CherylK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent response nobias!
I will have to forward this to some people I know!
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Thanks. I wrote this on the fly at work (I got a lot of work done today, eh?) n/t
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CherylK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Excuses, excuses!
:)
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. tell him to get used to it, cause his worse nightmare is coming true in Nov.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Libertarianism is a cokeyed Utopian dream
It has never been tried as a whole political philosophy. Where bits and pieces of it have been tried -- think, mortgage meltdown -- it has been a disaster.

Even in its classical formulation, it didn't make any sense.

Anyone who calls himself a libertarian shouldn't really be taken seriously.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. A Libertarian is a stoned Republican, n/t
n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. Good Rebuttal!
Sadly enough, I do agree with the fact that "economic difference between Republicans and Democrats has been shrinking."


Good job. :thumbsup:
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. Way to go! If he replies, please post it. :)
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Shockingly, he has yet to respond ;)
Something tells me he's not going to.

But hey, I could be wrong.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. there is no stupider, or more expensive, gov't program than the bogus 'war on terror'
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