Explosives to bring down planes: peroxide and Tang???

[muriel_volestrangler]

I'm slightly surprised this hasn't been picked up on DU, given it's been one of the top stories on the BBC for the last day or so, and the dubious suggestion that injecting Tang into a bottle of peroxide will be an explosive powerful enough to bring down a plane isn't the kind of thing that people here swallow, so to speak. So the questions of people mixing dubious chemicals in plane toilets while trying to keep the temperature right, which exercised everyone so much at the time, now seem irrelevant - now it's just astronaut drinks:

"It is the Crown's case that what the bombers intended to do was carry hydrogen peroxide mixed with Tang in hand luggage disguised as 500-ml bottles of Lucozade or Oasis soft drink," Mr. Wright told the jury yesterday.

"The mixture was to be detonated with some form of homemade detonator. In all likelihood it was to be a mixture known as HMTD."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080404.PLOT04/TPStory/International/columnists

[MidwestTransplant]

1. So I should make mouthwash out of Tang and Peroxide?

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. I guess it might solve your future teeth-cleaning problems

and swilling peroxide is going to take away any nasty taste from your mouth, for sure. It'll take any taste away at all, I'd think, for good.

[Sabriel]

3. Next they'll go after Mentos and Pepsi

"First they came for my Tang, and I said nothing, for I hate Tang."

[aikoaiko]

4. It only works with coke, not pepsi.

just kidding ;)

[Javaman]

7. Then they came for my coke and I said...

no coke only pepsi.

[CJCRANE]

5. Can someone tell these amateurs

not to bother. The successful attacks are usually state-sponsored.

[Ezlivin]

12. No kidding....

I've got a RW neighbor who thinks the terrorists will use a nuclear bomb next. When I ask the obvious question, "Where will they get the bomb?" he has no answer. I guess he supposes they'll just get the plans off the internet(s) by using The Google.

I more afraid of what our government is capable of doing to me, either through deliberate action or inaction, than what the "terrorists" can do.

[sergeiAK]

6. This is actually semi-plausible

HMTD is an explosive made with H2O2, citric acid (which is in Tang), and hexamine (readily available camp-stove fuel).

Where the case breaks down is that it would be far, far easier to make it in advance and smuggle it aboard, rather than try to make it on the aircraft, as the synthesis takes a few minutes, and must be conducted in a chilly environment (<10C, IIRC), though if it was made too warm, it would still work, it would just be very very sensitive to shock and friction.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

10. True, but hexamine is getting harder to get ahold of.

Another issue (which I noted about AP downthread) is that it is pretty inefficient unless you are using very high concentrations of acid (>30% or so). You're correct that temp. control is also very important when you're making it, but if you're blowing yourself up, it doesn't really matter if you have an unstable finished product does it (assuming it finishes before it detonates) ;)?

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. The HMTD was going to be as a detonator, inside AA battery casings

So they would make that beforehand, but the amount of that was going to be very small - enough to detonate the Tang.

[Rage for Order]

8. They may have withheld some information from the public

Prosecutors generally aren't in the business of disseminating information that would supply people with the information necessary to make improvised explosives from common household items. I'll wait until I hear more before dismissing it out of hand. Prior to 1995, how many people knew you could make a bomb out of fertilizer that would bring down a multi-story building?

[TheWraith]

11. I hate to break it to them, but anybody with Google access can find that out.

Hell, there are places online that'll probably tell you how to build a bomb out of your own poop and a series of matchsticks.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

9. Lol, fail. Acetone, acid (citirc in theory can be used, but hydrochloric is preferred)

and hydrogen peroxide can be turned into a very dangerous, VERY unstable, high explosive. The catch is that it generally takes a while (a few hours) for the precipitate to form, and unless you are using an ungodly high concentration of all three chemicals, it is difficult to detonate without separating the crystal from the solution. It also has relatively small yields unless you are using the aforementioned high concentrations, especially if you are using only 500 ml.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. No acetone mentioned. though

Maybe the barrister was trying to simplify things (not a good idea, I'd say, in court cases, if it actually means you change your story during the trial), but he said the explosive was just going to be hydrogen peroxide (unstated concentration) and Tang. And the notebook they showed as evidence just mentions peroxide, Tang, and a detonator:

In the notebook was written: "Perfect disguise. Drink bottles, Lucozade orange, red. Oasis, orange, red. Mouthwash, blue, red. Calculate exact drops of Tang, plus colour. Make in HP (hydrogen peroxide)."

Further down was the note: "Decide on which battery to use for D. Small is best."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/04/nterror204.xml

And here's another quote from the barrister:

He added: “The detonator would explode the primary charge of hydrogen peroxide and Tang with lethal effect.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/03/nterror403.xml

The actually seem to have decided on one teaspoon of Tang per - what? 500ml bottle? I'm very doubtful about the energy contained in 5g or so of Tang.

"The original content, laborious though it would be, would then be removed and the ready-mixed liquid explosive introduced, using a hypodermic or syringe in order to achieve that particular exercise. The base would then be re-sealed using a glue, superglue or similar product, that would then create a liquid-proof repair within the moulding point and also the top of the bottle would therefore appear factory-sealed, creating the illusion that it was unopened, innocent and an everyday item."

The liquid explosive, which can be made from commonly available items, was to be mixed with a powdered fruit drink called Tang.

"When Tang, which is an energetic compound, because of the material from which it is made ... is combined ... it is capable of creating an energetic mixture that can be detonated.

...

Further on was written: "Lucozade, red, 1.5 drops, one teaspoon Tang, one teaspoon orange, 12 drops. Oasis, red. On, red dye. Orange, two times mango."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/04/uksecurity.terrorism2