Do you believe the U.S. dollar...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

...is going to collapse (become essentially worthless)?

And if so, do you believe this collapse will have been intentionally engineered?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=4n3g5lUgkWk

[mikelgb]

1. No and Yes.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. Always one troublemaker...

:D

[lonestarnot]

5. Thought the same, but went with yes and yes, because one world currency doesn't necessitate

total worthlessness of the dollar until the new currency is in place.

[On the Road]

3. So Until Me,

Everyone who voted thinks that the dollar will lose all its value and 4 of 5 people think that this will be because of an international conspiracy. This is the kind of proportion I would have expected on FR.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

9. Who said anything about international conspiracy?

...That's the kind of purposful misrepresentation I would expect on FR.

[On the Road]

29. I Apologize, My Eyesight Must Have Been Failing

I read "internationally" for "intentionally."

Bush certainly does have a weak dollar policy, but that is not the same thing as his engineering a deliberate collapse. The most recent moves, in fact, show a keen interest by the Fed and Treasury to move heaven and earth to prevent such a collapse. I'm not even sure how much of a grasp Bush has of this, but Bernanke and Paulsen certainly do.

And keep in mind that this attitude toward central banking is very common among far-right cranks and is emphatically not shared by whomever your favorite Democratic candidates are for any office. That should give some pause.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

36. My apologies for the...

...presumption of misrepresentation on your part -- my bad.

As for far right extremist rhetoric concerning central banking, while I'm not sure what specific positions they've taken that you might be referring to, I will say that I wouldn't necessarily retreat from a position/opinion just because it is shared by some extremists elements and/or rejected by Dem leadership -- it would however, as you suggest, give some pause to reflect.

[Fovea]

4. Worthless is a bit loaded a term.

I think it will lose about 50% in value against the Euro. At that point, some sort of international conference will happen.

We might even be invited.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. I was struggling a bit with a clarification of what I meant by collapse...

...and settled on "essentially worthless," however, it is admittedly not very precise.

[CoffeeCat]

6. So, what should we be doing...

...to protect ourselves from the impending financial disasters?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

12. I'm not sure I can speak to that question ...

...other than to suggest, very generally, strategies and planning built around the concept of self sufficiency.

[Rosemary2205]

7. Euros were created for a reason.

[1]

10. yes...

seriously, have none of you ever gone through an economic downturn before? come on. or are you all just that young?

i guess i'm old, but this shit happens all of the time. several times in my lifetime. things go up, things go down. you can't predict the future from a moment in time.

in my youth, growing up in michigan, the canadian dollar wasn't worth shit. now it is stronger than the us dollar.

so, in my youth, i should have proclaimed the canadian dollar was then "worthless"?

please...

[notesdev]

13. You would have to be quite old

in order to have already seen a downturn like the one we've got coming. We haven't even scratched the surface of this one.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

16. Economic downturn? Maybe, but I think it's much more...

...than that this time -- and I believe this is the template they're using:

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm

---SNIP---

MILLIONS OF MARKS FOR A LOAF OF BREAD

Then there was the economic factor, the terror associated with having no money with which to live. One reads Haffner's description of the hyper-inflation crisis, but it's difficult to accept or understand: "No other nation has experienced anything comparable to the events of 1923 in Germany. All nations went through the Great War, and most of them have also experienced revolutions, social crises, strikes, redistributions of wealth, and currency devaluation. None but Germany has undergone the fantastic, grotesque extreme of all of these together; none has experienced the gigantic, carnival dance of death, the unending, bloody Saturnalia, in which not only money but all standards lost their value.

"... Anyone who had savings in a bank or bonds saw their value disappear overnight. Soon it did not matter whether it was a penny put away for a rainy day or a vast fortune. Everything was obliterated... A pound of potatoes which yesterday had cost fifty thousand marks now cost a hundred thousand. The salary of sixty-five thousand marks brought home the previous Friday was no longer sufficient to buy a packet of cigarettes on Tuesday... In August, the dollar reached a million ... .In September, a million marks no longer had any practical value... At the end of October, it was a billion... The atmosphere became revolutionary once again."

When citizens face uncertainty on this scale -- and the fear and dislocation that attend all such social traumas -- a man on a white horse promising to restore order has great appeal, even to some staunch democrats.

[1]

18. nice article, but are you paying millions of dollars for a loaf of bread?

my friend, do you even read what you post?

[fudge stripe cookays]

22. Not yet...

but if things continue at this pace, we very well could be paying upwards of $100 or so. I've been using post WWI Germany as an example for quite awhile.

[Zynx]

26. And you shouldn't be using it. That is a flawed analogy.

The scales of the problems do not even compare in the least. Just seeing deficit spending and higher prices does not mean Wiemar Germany is around the corner.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

33. Did I claim that I was currently paying...

...millions of dollars for a loaf of bread?

You tell me what I'm missing here, friend:

We've had our Reichstag fire, we've invaded and occupied a sovereign nation that had neither attacked nor threatened us in order to get control of their oil resources, we are poised to attack yet another in the same region, a nation which also has not attacked or threatened us, our legislators have meanwhile passed the Patriot Act (2001 and 2006), the Military Commissions Act of 2006, and more recently introduced the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act -- oh, and lest I forget, torture is now legal -- ALL of which has had the net effect of shredding our Bill of Rights.

In conjuction with all this domestic spending has been deeply cut while military spending has been greatly expanded, and a monetary policy has been followed which has, and continues to, steadily devalue our currency.

Our good friends at Halliburton have been contracted to build/recondition large scale detention facilities all over the country.

What does it take for you to begin to recognize a pattern and start connecting the dots? Does Chimpy have to start wearing a swastika armband for you to become alarmed? Do we need military parades with our glorious troops goose-stepping down Main Street before it finally dawns on you where this is all heading?

This is no ordinary economic downturn, my friend, and yes, I do read what I post.

[Zynx]

25. I'll give you my left kidney if that happens here.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

34. Your left kidney...

...some fava beans and a nice kiante -- sounds delightful!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

11. No..

Not a decade ago people were asking the same questions about the euro. Put someone with a solid vision in the whitehouse and the Dollar will strengthen..

[lonestarnot]

15. Even solid vision is not going to end that fairytale nicely.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

17. This nation survived the great depression I think well get through this..

[depakid]

39. The economic reality is that there's not much the President can do

With a massive budget and and current account (trade deficit) and inexorably rising oil prices.

Given the moribund state of its manufacturing base, inflation and devaluation are about the only way that the US can meet its long term obligations. Maybe not even then....

[Up2Late]

14. Going to collapse? How much worse could it get in the next 9 months?

Yes, it was by design. So when the next Democratic President starts repairing the damage, all those $100+ Dollar barrels of Oil dollars will start increasing in value. How convenient.

[Firespirit]

19. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity

The cartel thought Iraq would be not just a cakewalk, but the first step toward American empire this century. They really believed that.

Yes, we're in for seriously bad shit. But it was because the nation is run by a bunch of idiots who live in an alternate reality.

[CoffeeCat]

23. You said it so succinctly...

"Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity."

That is so important to understand. These neocons want us to believe
that they're supreme, evil geniuses. When actually, they're just
a bunch of ill-informed thugs--who, as you said, are really not that
bright.

Their ridiculous vision of "global domination through military might"
is a complete fairy tale. Yet, they weren't smart enough to realize
that, and they invaded a country with their fantasies--not their brains--
leading the way.

You're right. These people are completely stupid.

I think your quote is important to remember in many situations, where
people in power are being abusive. It's so easy to feel dominated
or outfoxed by people who abuse power and people. However, in the
end, types like this are more cowardly and stupid--than brave
and clever. They are blinded by their inability to think things
through.

Thanks for your thought-provoking, and very concise comments. You
hit the nail on the head, and serve as a reminder to all of us
when it comes to dealing with the neocons--or anyone who operates
by intimidation.

Thanks! :)

[Echo In Light]

31. This thread speaks to the broader dilemma....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3092475&mesg_id=3092475

I mention this as it's dangerous to maintain the safe, establishment friendly "incompetence" criticism; doing so affords the guilty a Whoops, made a "mistake" pass. In other words, they're people motivated by nefarious aims ... if they likewise happen to be idiotic, that's a secondary issue, not what fuels the true dilemma.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

42. Interesting. Thanks for the link.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

35. BushCo's ineptitude has been mind numbing...

...I'll certainly grant you that, but I believe the fall of the Dollar is part of the plan.

Malice and ineptitude are, of course, not mutually exclusive and I would say both can be safely attributed to this bunch of fascist thugs in virtually everything they have undertaken.

[Yukari Yakumo]

20. Yes and no

It's going to keep going down as long as Chimpy is in office.

But what has he intentionally engineered successfully since he's been in office?

[TexasObserver]

21. No, it won't collapse. It will decrease in value, as it has been doing.

The slide of the dollar is the natural consequence of deficit spending and loose monetary policies. Eventually, it will self correct, probably after we get a new president and sounder fiscal policies are followed.

[ThomWV]

30. It will decrease until it stops decreasing and then it will begin to gain

Just like the last time, just like the time before that. No country with 15,000 nuclear weapons will ever be completely down and out. Look at the rebirth of the old Soviet Union as an example. Does the Rubel still have value, was it valueless at some time in the past? Yes and Yes.

[Deja Q]

32. Also, the British empire lost its hold in the 19th century...

They don't seem to be suffering too badly these days either.

Just another reason why people need to take a step back, breathe, read other articles, gain some perspective, and continue with their lives. Things change; ups and downs. Doesn't mean gloooooooooooom and dooooooooooooooom at all.

[Zynx]

24. I do not.

It will continue to depreciate at a certain rate for some time. Corrective measures in the sense of reduced spending and increased saving will eventually bring the situation back into line.

[dogday]

27. Every month I purchase a membership from

a server located in Denmark and they charge in Euros 6.88 translates to 11.34 American.. Now put that in your pipe and smoke it... The dollar is deflating faster than I can type this....

[Dorian Gray]

28. Worthless?

no. I don't believe the conditions are there.

I do believe that the change in the value is intentionally engineered by a number of places, including the federal government and foreign currency traders.

[Greyhound]

37. It is already, by definition, worthless.

There is nothing to back it up, and it has been completely separated from the materials, goods, and services, that it was created to represent.

[Zynx]

40. So you want to go back to the gold standard?

[Greyhound]

41. I don't think that is possible any longer. What I think is needed is first,

to eliminate and outlaw the fractional reserve, central banking model. This system was created by the banking industry to benefit the banking industry and it is the very definition of a Ponzi scheme. Mayer Rothschild said it best when he said, "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws".

Then we need to tie our currency to specific value. Personally, the best idea I've come up with is time. It is universal and unvarying, and every good, resource, and service, can be be valued in terms of time.

The founders of this nation were very aware of how the game works and tried to keep us out of it by reserving the power to coin money to the Congress, a power they were easily bribed into neglecting very early on.

[Wednesdays]

38. Well...

I'm not quite that cynical (yet) to vote yes on the second question, and even though I voted yes on the first one, I wouldn't characterize my prediction as a "collapse", although it will indeed be very serious. It isn't hard to envision the dollar/euro ratio to hit 3:1 and gold at $2000 an ounce within a year. Which means all the prices you see today will double: gas at $6/gallon, milk at $8/gallon, bread at $5 per loaf...etc.

[harun]

43. Continual weakening yes, collapse no (n/t)