Current opinions on SIDS

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

I recently attended a conference on SIDS. I am curious as to what the general opinions of the public are concerning SIDS and it causes and what measures can be taken to reduce the numbers of deaths in the future. Thanks in advance for taking the time to post.

David

[Wiley50]

1. My 22 month old son died of SIDS in 1988

Every doctor involved told me he was too old to be a SIDS baby.

Still, without any other apparent cause of death, it went down as a SIDS death.

Fucked up my head majorly for a couple of years. The marriage died 3 months after the baby.

I wouldn't wish that stuff on my worst enemy.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. I'm sorry for your loss.

Your case brings up one of the problems, many cases are called SIDS when they might not be, 22 month's is way outside the norm and should of warranted a thorough investigation. I hope I haven't caused any pain, we are working on how we deal with these cases.

David

[Wiley50]

3. Well, I just hopes this helps

The pain is long gone now.

If you tell a newly bereaved parent what I was told, you will cause a painful obcession.

Don't know if I would have preferred just to be told something comforting instead.
Something that let my mind have closure. But then, that would have just not been the truth

In my case, there were other complications: My wife had a case of post-partum depression she still had not gotten over
and didn't have as much patience with my son as I would have hoped. I had come home early from work one day when he was two or three months old and found her screaming at the baby in his crib and holding a bed pillow at shoulder heighth. I snatched up the baby and left. Some friends kept the baby for a week or so while we worked things out. Nothing like that ever happened again. But I never forgot.

I didn't put it all together for about a year and a half, but I grieved something awful.

Then, one day, the pieces all fell together, hit me like a ton of bricks and I was chilled to the bone.

I was going to a greiving parent's support group and my facilitator was also a victim's rights advocate.
She urged me to write out all of my suspisions and give it to a certain district attorney. I did so.
And, no sooner did I hand it over, I suddenly had closure for the first time.

He ordered a State Bureau of Investigations investigation, which took about a year.
Then, the investigators came to visit me for the first time, I think to make sure that I didn't make the accusations out of spite. I didn't and they could tell. But they hadn't come up with enough to take any action, which was just ok with me.
I had gotten closure a year before just by telling my story.

and had already gone on with my life.

The ex never remarried and died of a sudden heart attack 5 years ago,

So I'll never know.


Hope I was some help.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. When I was a kid the lady up the street had a baby

and never came home from the hospital. Her husband brought that baby home and raised it. We went to the same church and we would see that man and his son at church. Watched the little boy grow up.

Years later, my mom told me the mother had severe post partum depression and attempted suicide when the baby was brand new and they were both still in the hospital. The baby came home and mom was hospitalized for years. We never did see her again.

It was so sad.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. Thanks for your honesty.

I am deeply appreciative of your input. This is a fine line for EMS and 1st Responders we are there to help but also there as usually the only impartial witnesses to the original scene. How the child is found is especially helpful to the medical examiner in determining the cause of death? I am about to begin developing an in-service for our Paramedics and EMTs on responding to and how we can help the investigation of SIDS cases, I thank you and your story will help.

David

[Dorian Gray]

11. Wiley

I am so sorry that you still have to live with that pain. How awful for you and your ex-wife. How truly awful!

[Midlodemocrat]

21. How devastating for you. I am so very, very sorry.

I hope you have found some peace. :hug:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

47. So sorry to hear you went through that

The loss of a kid can really destroy a marriage..

My brothers youngest drowned some time back and I was amazed at how he and his wife came together, we were all worried that the guilt/blame would hurt them.

[Ilsa]

6. I;ve worked with alot of breastfeeding mothers and have attended

numerous conferences on that subject. I've also read more anthropological information about it -- less in other countries where women cosleep when breastfeeding, etc. (Mothers' movements keep baby's system stimulated?)

Prematurity, under-developed neurological system, some sort of blood gas (negative?) feedback system, lack of breastfeeding, smoking in the home, have all been statistically tied to SIDS.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Can't really compare co-sleeping in this country and most other countries.

Especially 3rd world countries, the US sleeps on thicker bedding than anywhere I've ever been. We also take more drugs, prescription and illegal. Co-sleeping is a huge factor, some studies have shown it accounts for almost 50% of "SIDS" deaths. Some medical examiners won't call it SIDS, they say accidental asphyxiation/co-sleeping.

David

[vanlassie]

16. Really?

50%? Link please?

[vanlassie]

18. Link for YOU

http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/index.html

and this:
http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/aap.html

Was Dr. McKenna mentioned at your conference? (I can't imagine a conference on SIDS which would not include his work....)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. I believe it was 48%. Small study though.

I'll have to wait till I get to work on Tuesday to get the study. I'm not saying that there aren't safe ways to co-sleep. I'm saying that co-sleeping, without very specific guidelines such as the ones you reference, places an infant at a increased risk of dying of accidental asphyxiation. If your "really" was a reference to not comparing co-sleeping in the US to 3rd world countries that's a separate discussion. Which we can have if you like.

David

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. I co-slept with both my boys. The trick was to put my arm out hangin down like a scare-crow and then

to lay the baby's head across the upper part of my arm. It was physically impossible to roll over on to him. However, blankets and spouses can account as a danger to a baby. We were always very careful and hubby was sent to the living room for the first few months we had each baby, because he is an incredibly sound and unaware sleeper. And any time I was worried I was so tired that I would roll over on the baby he went into his car-seat (in the bed with me) or the bassinet next to the bed. I don't think I put either boy into the nursery every night until they were at least 5 or 6 mos old, and even then they were only a few feet away.

Of course, it made it difficult to get the kids to sleep all night and away from us. But I don't care. I felt having them with me was worthwhile overall.

[vanlassie]

32. My Really?...

was skepticisim based on your use of the words "huge" and "studies."

As opposed to your more recent use of the word "study" (Small).

You mislead, sir.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. Co-sleeping is a huge factor in infant deaths often called SIDS.

Ask any medical examiner. These aren't SIDS deaths but they are called SIDS often to not lay more guilt at the mother's or father's or grandmother's or grandfather's, etc., etc., feet. I'm not talking about the posters here. I'm talking about in the projects where I have worked for years. Where there is no pre-natal care? Where mom comes home with baby and smokes pot to help her sleep and can't afford a crib. So please don't accuse me of misleading anyone. A person with half a brain would agree that the above scenario isn't exactly ideal for the child. Feel free to contribute something useful instead of criticizing.

David

[vanlassie]

37. Link to data which proves you opinion

is what I think would be useful.

You started a provocative OP and used your opinion as fact. It is an important subject, so I would like it if you would back up your statements. It's important to me that parents understand that SIDS is NOT caused by co-sleeping in ANY case.

Death by suffocation is death by suffocation. It is NOT SIDS.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Death by suffocation is death by suffocation. It is NOT SIDS.

Which I plainly stated in my last response to you. I said they are often called SIDS, that is what the death certificate often read. Especially in small rural counties where the medical examiner is also the only family practice doctor in town. How was my original post provocative? Re-read it please. When I get to work tomorrow, if I have time between meetings I'll find the study. When I do I'll tell you who did it. It's a hard copy so I doubt I'll have a link. Part of the point of this conference was to help differentiate between SIDS and accidental asphyxiation and child abuse. Because in the past, at least here, those distinctions have often failed to be made. I agree with you SIDS is not caused from co-sleeping. At lot of infant deaths in the past that were classified as SIDS, were accidental asphyxiation from co-sleeping. We don't know what causes SIDS, and investigating and ruling out accidental asphixiation and child abuse may help us find the cause and hopefully treatments or procedures to reduce the number of true SIDS deaths. But we have to know the truth first.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. From your own link.

In the worldwide ethnographic record, mothers accidentally suffocating their babies during the night is virtually unheard of, except among western industrialized nations, but here there are in the overwhelming number of cases, explanations of the deaths that require reference to dangerous circumstances and not to the act itself.


Seems to concur with what I have said.


While there is evidence that accidental suffocation can and does occur in bed-sharing situations, in the overwhelming number of cases (sometimes in 100% of them) in which a real overlay by an adult occurs, extremely unsafe sleeping condition or conditions can be identified including situations where adults are not aware that the infant was in the bed, or an adult sleeping partners who are drunk or desensitized by drugs, or indifferent to the presence of the baby.


Again it concurs with what I have said. See post #34.

I looked for that study. I can't find the source, it must have been from a presenter. The source that I did find was a Kinney and Patterson study and it found 23% of victims had been "sharing a bed" at the time of death. That is not to say that all of these were accidental asphyxiation, SIDS deaths can occur during co-sleeping without fault of the parent. Clearly though some percentage of these were accidental asphyxiation. I apologize if you thought I was trying to be provocative. I was not, I am simply trying to get the best information available. I appreciate the links and will keep them bookmarked for future reference.

David

[vanlassie]

43. And they are NOT SIDS deaths.

It troublesome to start a thread about SIDS and then allow it to jump to suffocation without making it very clear that they are two separate things. I imagine you believe you did. I am always worried that parents take home the message (as I noticed here) that sleeping with their babies is dangerous- throwing the baby out with the bathwater...when the OPPOSITE is shown by data to be true- babies are safer from SIDS when they sleep with or in close proximity to their mothers. In other words:

IT IS MORE DANGEROUS TO PUT A BABY IN ANOTHER ROOM TO SLEEP.

SLEEPING WITH YOUR BABY IS SAFER.

If mom drinks, smokes, takes drugs? That is an obvious no brainer. Nothing to do with SIDS, either. Being intoxicated or subjecting your baby to noxious fumes is dangerous, especially when sleeping together. If the baby dies, it's not SIDS, however.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. Go back and read the posts, all of them.

I didn't even bring up co-sleeping, someone else did. I said you couldn't compare foreign data to the US, which your link even stated. I never said it was SIDS. I always clearly stated that it was often accidental asphyxiation. I stated clearly on more than one occasion that co-sleeping could be done safely when parents are properly educated and when combined with breastfeeding it was probably very good for the baby. You are reacting from an emotional level on this. I don't even disagree with you, the links your provided confirmed what I have said here. However, I don't think though given the number of accidental asphyxiation deaths from co-sleeping in improper environments you can say that infants are safer sleeping with their parents in bed if they aren't properly educated on how to do so safely. Your links confirm that also and those sentiments have been echoed by a homicide detective that has responded to hundreds of infant fatalities and a medical examiner who performed autopsies on hundereds. The homicide detective actually stated that if he had the power he would outlaw co-sleeping. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You say that these things are a no brainer but, when the mom is 16 and dropped out of school 3 years before, there aren't many no-brainers. I am simply trying to get a wide variety of lay and professional opinions on this subject, I have not meant any of this as an attack, I have simply tried to clarify when disagreements have arisen. I appreciate your input.

David

[Occulus]

46. cribs question

WHY do tiny babies need cribs almost three times as long as they are, and so hugely wide?

Is the co-sleeping thing related to the cost of a new crib and the parents' economic status? Inquiring minds and all.

Here's a Google image search for "crib". See what I mean? They're all huge! With the exception of only a few, why, that's a 'centerpiece' furniture piece for an entire room! If newborns sleep along roughly the same schedule they followed in the womb, and they wake up and need to be fed at ungodly hours, why a whole other room? Why not a simple cradle next to the parents' bed?

I've never understood the need for a 'nursery'. What cost! What exorbiant expense! And which other species' newborns sleep alone several dozen feet from its parents? Are we mad as a society? Or is it just me?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

48. Kids do grow you know..

Many cribs do come with toddler rails.

My wife and I picked up a used pali and brought the rail with our first came home. When we had our second a year and a half later we moved our older baby to a bed, now that the second can climb out we put the toddler rail on. In the middle of the night our older daughter goes into bed with the younger.. Ill get at least 3 maybe 4 years out of this crib before its outgrown the tiny baby beds (name escapes me) lst 6 months tops..

'If newborns sleep along roughly the same schedule they followed in the womb, and they wake up and need to be fed at ungodly hours, why a whole other room? Why not a simple cradle next to the parents' bed?

I've never understood the need for a 'nursery'. What cost! What exorbiant expense! And which other species' newborns sleep alone several dozen feet from its parents? Are we mad as a society? Or is it just me?'

Depends on the kid my oldest was not through the night until well over a year, my youngest was through the night at about two months. On top of that there is a desire for intimacy between parents. A difficult pregnancy can mean a couple has not been together for several months. There comes a time when I would want to light the room right put on some music and romance my wife without waking the kids.

If someone wants their kids in the same room more power to them but frankly I find a rested parent enjoys them more during the day..

Ill agree that some people go way overboard on the nursery, but a room for the kid is *not* overboard.

--

Most parents I know keep the baby in the same room until the mother heals enough for intimacy. At that point the parents enjoy spontaneous privacy.

[Ilsa]

19. That's a more appropirate term for it. IT better describes

the activity. And I wonder how many parents sleep with their babies out of poverty, but don't know risk factors?

There is a way to safely co-sleep in the US, and drugs, alcohol, even obesity, are not a part of the picture, and breastfeeding should be, as it is in other countries where co-sleeping is common.

[KT2000]

7. My general opinion

is that babies are suffocating on the chemical cocktail they are breathing in from their bedding. There may be a pre-existing respiratory issue with the baby that keeps them from recovering themselves.

Formaldehyde is in all the textile products in a child's bedding, mattress and the particle board in the crib. Toxic dyes are used on textiles as well as mandated fire retardants. People use air fresheners and personal care products that contain dangerous chemicals. Guess what - none of these have been tested on babies for their health effects and none have been tested in combination with each other.
We are always exposing our children to neurotoxins and for what?

I say this because I was essentially poisoned by some chemicals and one of the problems I had afterward was a kind of apnea - while I was awake. I would just forget to breathe and then gasp for air.

[Horse with no Name]

9. there is some promising research out there

that shows that babies that suck pacifiers die from SIDS less than those who don't.
It makes a lot of sense.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. Got a reference?

Also, you may want to explain how it makes a lot of sense.

David

[AspenRose]

41. Here

Google is your friend


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9649335/

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/113/110685.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. Thanks that will help.

David

[laylah]

10. Back in the early '80's

60 Minutes had a segment on about SIDS and the MMR vacination. The two companies spoken about were Eli Lily and Wyeth Labs. One company had the safer whole cell vaccine but the government would not fund their reasearch, which one, I don't remember. They provided 3 different stories about babies who had had their early vaccinations within 24 hours of death. Pretty sad stuff. My youngest was only about 6-7 months old at the time and I refused those vaccinations. But then, when she became of school age, I had to allow them. I wasn't as worried when she was 5 as I was when she was so little.

[TZ]

12. Ummm no.

SIDS is really thought to be a respiratory problem. Nothing to do with vaccines. I would like to see if any of these babies had or were treated for RSV in the hospital.
Why is it that people blame EVERY mysterious medical conditions on vaccines, when the effects are pretty well known? What the hell do you mean by "whole cell" vaccine anyway? MMR is a live,attenuated viral vaccine, something a bit different from your terminology.

[laylah]

35. I won't even bother

to respond to your rudeness. Want to discuss, grab your manners and meet me back here later. Sheece.

[BeHereNow]

50. And my daughter stopped breathing within hours of a vaccine- no respiratory connection there, eh?

Fortunately, I had taken her to the emergency room
despite the pediatricians assurances that her symptoms
were routine after the vaccination ADR.

BHN

[LeftishBrit]

14. I think you must be thinking of pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine...

The MMR vaccine was not yet in use in the early 80s, and it is in any case not given until around 15 months, which is after the main risk period for SIDS.

The pertussis vaccine as given in the past was suspected of occasionally causing dangerous reactions - though I haven't heard of SIDS being attributed to it. Because of this, they changed from a whole-cell vaccine to an acellular vaccine (it's actually the acellular vaccine that's considered to be safer than whole-cell, rather than the other way round).

[BeHereNow]

51. That's the one they attributed to my daughter's ADR. Pertussis.

Fucking Pharma cartel...
BHN

[ellie]

13. My sister died of SIDS in 1956

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. Sorry for your loss.

[RoadRage]

15. I have a 2 year old.. and another one on the way

And SIDS has been one of my worst nightmares (along with autism and other things that all new parents worry about).

With my daughter we just followed the "back to sleep" guideline and didn't let her sleep on her stomach until she was able to roll over herself and we couldn't prevent it. We also had her suck on a pacifier at night, but honestly - that would fall out as soon as she fell asleep, so I am not sure how that would have prevented anything.

We completely avoided co-sleeping. I have several friends that did it (and still do it), but aside from the fact that neither my husband or I could seem to get a wink of sleep with an additional squirming body in our bed - we just never felt safe with it. Our daughter slept in her own crib in her own room the night she came home from the hospital, and that has never changed since.

I guess the combination of back sleeping, no co-sleeping, and possibly the pacifier are the best current "defenses" against SIDS?

[Ilsa]

20. SIDS should not be confused with accidental asphixiation from co-sleeping.

SIDS is medical.

In other countries where breastfeeding is more common, so is co-sleeping. The father doesn't sleep next to the baby, the bed, ad possibly a side crib are arranged to allow mother and infant to be close, and mother's breathing and frequent nursing help stimulate the baby's nervous system, etc.

I couldn't handle getting up to feed or nurse. I nearly dropped the baby on the floor when I was up with him one night because I fell asleep holding him. Co-sleeping became our best solution for everyone to sleep well, but I know it doesn't work for everyone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. Breastfeeding and the increased health from it may be another preventative factor.

Babies who are breastfed are healthier and have less allergic reactions than babies who aren't. That in itself may be a big factor.

David

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. Since I co-clept with the babies I was pretty aware of them and maybe more

likely to notice if they weren't breathing right? Especially the one who nursed. I spent a lot of nights comfort nursing him. :)

[Ilsa]

30. Both of mine were just frequent feeders. They liked

eating. They were both huge babies, and the more they nursed, the capable I was of supplying their demand. I think we both "tuned in" to one another's bio-rhythms or something. I could just barely stir, start coming out from a deep sleep, and so would the baby. We could nurse without me fully waking up. It was heavenly.

A couple of links:

http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/

http://al.nd.edu/about-arts-and-letters/news/infant-co-sleeping-expert-james-mckenna-authors-new-book/

Dr. James McKenna has done alot of work in the field of co-sleeping, anthrpology, SIDS, etc. Interesting stuff to read.

[Ilsa]

29. There are plenty of things we still don't know about human milk.

Perhaps there is a component that helps to mature the neurological system a little faster in newborns. It was only in the last ten years that they discovered that adults now who were breastfed as children had better cholesterol levels and ratios. Maybe something in human mild helped the liver developed better.

But I agree that fewer allergic reactions may be the best reason for the outcome.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Sounds like we

had a lot in common. :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3112373&mesg_id=3116135

[LWolf]

17. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

My babies, fwiw, slept on their tummies. That's how we were told to place them at the time (late 70s.)

My father's first son died of SIDS in the 1950s. He went on to father two more sons with that woman, but when he left her he got custody of both boys because she was mentally ill. That was quite unusual in the late 50s. I was born in 1960, and my mom left my dad when I was less than a year old, so I don't know much about his first marriage, except that he was 16 and married her because she got pregnant. He married his first 3 wives that way, lol. His 4th and final wife came with her own kids.

I have always wondered, with her age and mental condition, if it was really SIDS.

[Ilsa]

31. Dave, you might google Dr. James McKenna for more information

on co-sleeping and SIDS, etc. if you are interested in reading more about it. He covers alot of cultural issues involved with the subject, too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Again I'm not saying it can't be done safely.

I'm saying where I work and live it isn't. A local health department actually classified infant mortality from accidental asphyxiation usually from co-sleeping as an epidemic in their community. The lead homicide detective in that town, told me he had seen so many that he would like to make co-sleeping illegal. It sounds like you'll are on the ball as mothers and I've got no problem with that. I realize there are a lot of issues here and a lot of emotions. I'm just trying to get a wide variety of opinions so I will be as well informed as possible when I start developing this curriculum.

David

[Ilsa]

36. Yeah, I know what you mean. Alot of people are irresponsible

about this as well as many other parenting issues. The local hospitals' mother-baby discharge instructions include "not putting your baby in your bed with you."

We took the drop side off the crib, raised or lowered the mattress to equal that of our mattress, and placed transitional blankets and sheets on the crack. I was the one in the middle between baby and husband.

I think problem goes to people not bothering to learn about parenting.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. Thanks to everyone.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input. It will help tremendously, if in no other way than me not offending mom's who co-sleep safely and choosing some better terminology. Hopefully we can reduce the numbers of infant deaths, that is the ultimate goal. Again I sincerely appreciate everyone being so honest and open about a difficult subject.

David

[hedgehog]

42. I figure it's a combination of an immature nervous system complicated bu exposure

to chemicals (cigarette smoke) and/or an infection. I watched my 6 kids like a hawk until they were about 2 and I suspect my GAD is a result. You can imagine my chagrin when the data proved that "back to sleep" was the safest because I faithfully placed all those kids on their stomachs!

Co-sleeping is a real controversy. I kept them in a bassinet next to my bed until they were able to move around enough to need the safety of a crib. At the same time, I often fell asleep nursing a baby and only woke up later to transfer the infant to the bassinet. They all thrived and survived, but then I don't smoke or drink and tend to be a light sleeper.

My oldest insisted on falling to sleep in bed with us until his sister was old enough to sleep in a crib next to his. After that, all the kids moved into a cib in the same room with sibling(s) so they never slept alone. I sometimes wonder how my oldest didn't end up as an only child!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. Nursing by itself may play a factor.

Healthier kids would seem likely to suffer from SIDS less.

David

[RB TexLa]

52. What is Sids?

[BeHereNow]

53. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.

Believe it or not, at one time there was
a baby furniture store in Hollywood on Sunset Blvd
called Sid's Cribs.
I shit you not.

BHN

[RB TexLa]

54. I don't know any infants. Maybe the person who named that store didn't know any either. I'd never

heard of it.