With So Many Men Owning Guns, Domestic Violence Is Difficult to Prevent for Justice System

[ensho]

http://www.gunguys.com/#post-2933


A new study about domestic violence from the University of Toledo's college of law released some rather disturbing trends.

The study, "Shattered Lives: A Report of Domestic Violence Fatalities In Lucas County Ohio, 2003-2006", found that deaths from domestic violence and murder-suicides are on the rise.

-snip-

GunGuys.com posts at least 10 shootings per weekday in our feature, "America's Shooting Gallery" -- click here for our archive.

Just looking at our compilation of shootings, it's hard not to be taken aback by the sheer number of murder-suicide stories we post each week.

A large majority of murder-suicides are carried out by jealous, unstable, controlling, abusive or broken men who arm themselves with a gun and use it in a final act of desperation and violence to prove their power over the women in their lives. Some gun owners will even resort to killing their own children before killing themselves. They are the most heart wrenching stories to read.

But the gun lobby's twisted response to domestic violence by armed men is to actually encourage women to buy a gun to protect themselves against their own boyfriends, husbands, lovers, and fathers of their own children.

-snip-

Solution:
Prospective gun owners -- on this issue the problem is mostly men -- need to pass a mental health screening test before getting permission to possess a gun. The test should be renewed consistently.

If a domestic violence report is filed, the police should forcefully search for any and all weapons owned by the alleged abuser. The police should have broad discretion and lean on the side of protecting women and not worrying about a batterer's "gun rights". If a woman's charges of domestic violence are unwarranted, then a gun owner can get their rights restored later -- that's why we have a court system and procedures. But right now, that's not the case. An armed abuser has all the power, and as the report above demonstrated, it's often to late to put the pieces back to together. The focus must be on prevention, and getting weapons away from batterers and implementing policies to keep them from getting more firearms.

-snip-

In lieu of this, GunGuys.com has considered launching a new "cultural change" campaign with a simple message to young women:

"I Don't Date Boys Who Own Guns."

Since efforts to pass legislation have stalled, working on cultural change on the gun issue, especially on domestic violence, is a good place to begin to have an impact for gun violence prevention advocates.
--------------------


DON'T DATE BOYS WHO OWN GUNS

same could be said for women. don't live with men who own guns.

[-..__...]

1. Sounds like the pinheads at GunGuys...

would be right at home and happy with tactics favored in Stalinist Russia (I'm certain a number of the gun grabbers here would be as well)...

"If a domestic violence report is filed, the police should forcefully search for any and all weapons owned by the alleged abuser. The police should have broad discretion and lean on the side of protecting women and not worrying about a batterer's "gun rights". If a woman's charges of domestic violence are unwarranted, then a gun owner can get their rights restored later -- that's why we have a court system and procedures. But right now, that's not the case. An armed abuser has all the power, and as the report above demonstrated, it's often to late to put the pieces back to together. The focus must be on prevention, and getting weapons away from batterers and implementing policies to keep them from getting more firearms".

[ensho]

4. so your allegiance is to the gun owner guy and not the woman

he has abused?

her safety means naught to you?

[-..__...]

9. Perhaps the abused would be better of armed with a 1911...

rather than relying on calling 911?

I have zero tolerance for wife/spousal abusers.

I also have zero tolerance for giving the police "broad discretion" and allowing them to "forcefully search for any and all weapons" based on an allegation. And... I certainly don't trust the "court system and procedures" "get their (my), rights restored later".

There's already enough fascist behavior and activity currently taking place in the government and law enforcement agencies.

And you'd gladly give them more authority to do so?

[ensho]

12. they wouldn't search on just "allegations" - get a grip

nt

[-..__...]

19. How naive of you.

What do you think is meant by "broad discretion"?

[hack89]

32. Lets give the wiretappers "broad discretion"

while we are at it. As long as it makes us safer, what's the big deal?

[Edweird]

61. "If a domestic violence report is filed, the police should forcefully search for any and all weapons

owned by the alleged abuser."

Alleged = Allegation.
All it would take under this plan is an Allegation.
What part of that is confusing you?

[glowing]

2. Solution is to teach men and women that violence against one another

is not good, normal or stable.. Of course, when its all around us.. from the war to video games.. its hard to set an example in society that says its not ok to dominate other people.

[The Straight Story]

3. Wonder how many were drunk/on drugs? Maybe the cops should search for those

things.

Why do some people with guns act this way and not others? And we should we punish those who don't because of what some others may potentially do?

[ensho]

5. yes - look at the stats,

nt

[EstimatedProphet]

49. No. Stats are too easily used for lies.

This just proves it.

[derby378]

6. "I Don't Date Girls Who Grab Guns"

There, how's that grab ya?

The solution is simple - teach men and women alike to live and let live, to respect each other, and to watch out for each other. But apparently Freedom States Alliance is too busy for that.

Most of the domestic violence cases I hear about do not involve guns - they involve fists, feet, flights of stairs, chairs, penises, etc. Don't want to burst your bubble or anything, but that "GunGuys" analysis is full of shit.

[ensho]

10. Gun Guys are reputable

don't spin or twist information

[beevul]

16. Since when?

Aren't these the same bozo's that made some claim that handguns didn't exist before the revolutionary war?

[aikoaiko]

35. ensho --> "Gun Guys are reputable" -- now I know you can't be trusted

sorry, the gun-guys are are a front for an anti-2nd amendment foundation.

[ensho]

46. does the anti-2nd amendment foundation have a web site?

nt

[aikoaiko]

56. freedomstatesalliance.com/

They say they here to help us reduce gun violence, but often at the expense of the 2nd.

:puke:

[EstimatedProphet]

50. They've never been reputable.

[slackmaster]

55. Appeal to isness doesn't cut the mustard around here

GunGuys have been caught repeating lies and distortions many, many times.

[The Straight Story]

11. Wait a sec...

"they involve fists, feet, flights of stairs, chairs, penises, etc."

I am trying to imagine someone swinging their penis around and hitting someone with it....in my case I would probably miss (hard to arm it sometimes) and just keep hitting my own knees...

[varelse]

15. He means rape

which is a very effective weapon in the arsenal of a domestic abuser, and which frequently does employ that organ.

[derby378]

20. What varelse said...

...but it's going to be a while before I scrub that image from my mind that you just implanted. :silly:

[OzarkDem]

18. "Large Majority" are abusive men, deal with it

The relentless woman bashing on DU is getting out of hand.

[derby378]

Which "Large Majority" are you referring to?

Just because my vote went to Obama in the primaries doesn't mean that I'm a woman-basher. I have some problems with Hillary Clinton, true, but I have some problems with Barack Obama as well. Nobody's perfect.

[OzarkDem]

23. The topic is the epidemic of violence against women

Why do you not consider that a problem? Why do you think protecting gun ownership rights is more important than protecting the lives of women?

[derby378]

26. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I am married to a beautiful woman who was beaten and mistreated long ago by her miserable excuse of an ex-husband. If you think I value my wife's life and well-being any less than I value her right to own a gun, we're going to have words.

[The Straight Story]

34. That then is where I see the problem in this thread

"Why do you think protecting gun ownership rights is more important than protecting the lives of women?"

Who is saying one is more important than the other? we can't do both?

Or should we take the RW stance on issues (ie, muslims kill more people and treat their wives worse so we need to eliminate it) and then transfer it to our own issues (people who have guns use them in bad ways sometimes, therefore all guns are bad)?

Millions upon millions own guns here and never use them in such a way, and yet we peddle fear based on the few that do in order to control our fear and make ourselves feel more safe.

Blame guns all we want, but this problem ha existed WAY before guns did.

But I guess we don't want to spend time on real solutions.

[varelse]

36. I completely agree with this statement

Millions upon millions own guns here and never use them in such a way, and yet we peddle fear based on the few that do in order to control our fear and make ourselves feel more safe.

Blame guns all we want, but this problem ha existed WAY before guns did.

But I guess we don't want to spend time on real solutions.

We need to support all victims of domestic violence and we need to fund and work for real solutions. In so many cases, a gun is not required to inflict permanent trauma or death on these people. There are better ways to resolve this, and they should be explored and implemented.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

8. What about living with women who own guns?

What about both partners owning guns? What about one or both partners enjoying hunting, or target shooting? And is it any gun, no matter how acquired?

Also, you're leaving out a few other relevent other causes. Fifty seven percent of murder suicides has the couple's separation as a precipitating factor in the murder suicide. Should be ban separations and divorces also? Also, alcohol was a factor in over a third of these murder suicides, should we ban alcohol again? <http://www.qprinstitute.com/CommunitiesDV.htm>

Now let's get into the ludicrousness of your proposition. Current murders of wifes/girlfriends are running around 1000/year. Let's be generous, and assume that all of these are murder/suicides(they're not, but the FBI doesn't break out those stats, so I'll give them all to you. Now eighty million people own guns in this country, so essentially you want to impose further restrictions on gun owners all to solve a problem that is statistically insignificant, since only .0000125% of gunowners, at most, commit a murder suicide each year.

Also, you're plan to seize guns from alleged abusers is constitutionally unsound. We don't seize guns from people, as you propose, until after they've been convicted. Why should we overturn judicial precedent and the Constitution over such a matter?

And frankly, this little campaign of not dating men who own guns is ludicrous. It is simply another example of the hysterical baseless fear that anti-gun people deal in everyday. It does a serious disservice to those of us who want serious gun control laws and feeds the fire of those who think that all of us in favor of reasonable gun control laws are, at heart, just wanting to seize everybody's guns. So please, knock off this shit, you are doing anybody any favors.

[ensho]

14. what is your solution to stop or lessen women/children killed by gun toting men

women would like a solution. seeing as how you are pro gun owning by all and anyone. how would you stop woman killing by men?

[MadHound]

17. Perhaps we should ask the Swiss, where there is a gun in every house

And a lower murder and/or suicide rate than here in the US. Or perhaps we can consult with Canadians, who have a higher per capita gun ownership rate than the US, yet a lower murder and/or suicide rate. Or even the Iraqis, at least quiz them about the time before we invaded. For under Saddam, each and every household had an AK-47 in it, yet again, the murder and/or suicide rate was much lower than the US.

As these and other facts show, owning guns isn't the problem. The problem is a sociological one, and by only addressing guns, all you're doing is addressing the symptoms, not solving the problem. What, do you actually think that murder/suicides will stop, or even drop significantly if all guns were seized? LOL! This is a sociological problem, and stop gap, feel good measures such as you propose will not end it, nor even significantly slow it down. All you will be doing is trampling on the civil rights of eighty million people in this country, men and women, all to fulfill your own personal little mission.

Oh, and please don't classify me as "pro gun owning by all and anyone" when you've already seen my post above. Such hysterical over the top accusations, especially in light of the fact that I explained my position already, only makes you look foolish, hysterical, and stupid.

[derby378]

24. Maybe if you start dealing with men instead of inanimate objects...

...we can start working on that solution to which you just referred.

[Codedonkey]

42. outlaw men?

[ensho]

47. oh gosh, that made me lol

like women don't deal with men every day of their lives.

[Wcross]

28. Women aren't beaten to death? Stabbed?

Is it about the WAY they are killed that bothers you the most? To me it is the FACT that they are being killed. Do you honestly believe that if a man decides to kill his spouse the lack of a gun will prevent it?

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

30. People kill people. There is no solution. There are infinite ways to do it.

When someone wants to kill someone, it's going to happen. Men kill women, men kill women, women kill men, etc. A person with so little to lose that they are willing to take a person's life can't be stopped by ridding them the manufactured means to do so. Murder has occurred in great numbers ever since humans decided that they didn't like someone for whatever reason. The only thing we can do is to treat the problem, not the symptoms (read: weapons).

[Threedifferentones]

58. The point is that guns have little to do with abuse

Men had been abusing and oppressing women all over the world for centuries before the first gun was ever shot. Hence guns are far, far from the root of this problem. Moreover they make women competitive with men in direct, violent confrontations. The OP's "article" is clearly a sham trying to convince women to vote against guns on a false, though tragic, premise, the fear of domestic violence.

[OzarkDem]

21. We need to focus on violence against women

A disaster of huge proportions in this country that needs to be addressed.

But given the level of sexism we're seeing among "liberals and progressives" these days, on DU and elsewhere it looks like it won't be happening any time soon.

[MadHound]

29. A fully agree with that sentiment

And it is one that I have worked towards most of my life. That is my point, banning guns or imposing unreasonable restrictions upon guns will not solve the problem of violence against women. If we take care of that root problem of violence against women, and sexism in general, then we won't need to worry about treating the symptoms, ie guns.

However if we simply continue to focus on guns, the root problem will continue to worsen and spread, and women will continue to suffer violence and death, no matter if guns are present or not.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

31. Wrong (partly), We need to focus on VIOLENCE

I don't give a shit who does it to who, we're all humans.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. The deaths of women is just one of the prices we pay for our precious freedoms.

While it's sad that these deaths occur, the loss of gun freedoms would be far more tragic than the loss of human life ever could be. We just need to come to terms, as a society, with the fact that there will be a certain amount of inevitable death and mayhem as the price we pay for being the freest society on Earth.

[OzarkDem]

22. So violence against women isn't important?

Is that what you're saying?

What if these statistics represented members of the KKK killing black men. Would that generate some outrage?

Why is violence against women ok?

[Crunchy Frog]

27. No, not at all.

I'm just saying that, for citizens of this country, gun freedoms are more important. I don't necessarily endorse this view myself, but I do feel free to point it out. Our society appears to value gun freedom more highly than it values human life. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you ask society about it, not me.

[Irreverend IX]

59. Our society appears to value car freedom...

Even more highly than gun freedom in relation to human life. About 50,000 people are killed in traffic accidents every year - the same number of troops who died in Vietnam - and we're content to have a Vietnam every year for the sake of convenient transportation. If you want to cut down on needless deaths, why don't you focus on the factors that are linked to the most fatalities? Alcohol also kills a lot more people than guns, through alcohol poisoning, related diseases and drunk driving accidents, and unlike guns and cars, alcohol has no practical purpose. Maybe you should work on bringing back Prohibition.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. I agree.

Maybe we should require all automobiles and all drivers to be licensed, and require them all to carry insurance, and to fill our streets with police officers who can stop them at will for any kind of violation, or simply suspicion. I'd be game for that. :thumbsup:

[Irreverend IX]

67. You only need a license to drive a car on public roads...

Just as in most states, you need a permit to carry a gun in public. The licensing of guns and cars is on the same level. However, crimes committed by licensed drivers and CCW holders are not. Probably a majority of car fatalities involve licensed drivers, while the vast majority of firearm murders are committed by people with prior felony records that disqualify them from even owning a gun legally, let along getting a carry license. Statistics gathered in a number of states show that concealed carry permit holders have crime and arrest rates far below those of the general population.

[SuperDuperSocialist]

66. I understand what you meant...

I understand what you meant (and others would too if they weren't so bent on trying to sound smart and one-up each other), but holy shit that could have been worded far better.

[Wcross]

25. How about "Don't date or marry abusive assholes" ?

I don't understand why women marry or date guys who abuse them. The fact that a man may own a gun is no indication that they would use it on their spouse, is it?

[Paladin]

33. How Nice Of You To Blame The Victims.

And how fucking typical. That attitude is just one step up from one of your fellow DU Gun Nuts, who argued that Kitty Genovese was primarily responsible for her own murder, because she wasn't carrying a gun the night she was assaulted.....

[Wcross]

37. How about you read the post I was responding to sparky?

DON'T DATE BOYS WHO OWN GUNS

same could be said for women. don't live with men who own guns.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, do I not have the right to improve on that suggestion and suggest women avoid abusive assholes? I guess you are OK with women being murdered as long as an "evil gun" wasn't involved.

[Wcross]

39. Your false outrage is funny scooter. n/t

[ourbluenation]

44. Sounds like you need to read a little on the subject...it's not that simple.

For disclosure purposes, I work with dv victims all day long at my day job.

Here's the first thing you should consider...abusers don't reveal themselves as abusers, in fact, they may not even acknowledge that side of themselves to themselves until it reveals itself, and that happens slowly. First they become controlling, then it slowly builds to the flashpoint where fist meets jawbone, or ribcage, or eye, etc.... But your simplistic response is a common one...if only it were that simple.

[Wcross]

62. But does ownership of a gun mean the person is abusive?

I own a few guns & have never even considered violence as an appropriate response to relationship problems. I was responding directly to the original post that stated "Girls, don't date or marry a guy who owns a gun". I believe gun ownership is not an indication of anything other than the guy owns a gun. You see, it was a simplistic response to a simplistic post by the original poster. I do hope you respond to the original poster in the same manner.

[ourbluenation]

64. I can tell you that most of the phycically abused clients we see are abused by

punching, etc. If they file a restraining order the alleged perp has to surrender his or her guns. Whether they actually do this is another story but usually the victim knows about their gun ownership and reports it and the judge demands it. There is no 100% abuse proof way to deal with this other than ending the relationship. In extreme cases victims have to go into hiding, and where I work we provide that to our clients. It takes most victims 8 times on average to leave their abusers. These victims have little to no self esteem. For some, it's precisely because they are scared of their abuser because they know he has a gun and is angry enough to use it. No doubt he or she has threatened as such many times. Throw kids into that and you can see the nightmare they live in.

I was speaking to you saying the victims should just leave their abusers. As you've since pointed out, it's not that simple. For the record I personally am not an anti gun democrat. I don't own one, and I dont think the 2nd amendment gives people the right to own one either, but I understand people having guns for recreation, hunting, etc. Some of these firearms and rifles have been passed down the generations, like family heirlooms. My Brother in law is a perfect example. He grew up on a ranch, is a member of the NRA and has a gun and rifle collection from his dad, and is a bush hating, war hating, liberal man who loves to go to the range.

I think the OP was trying to say that if you consider the many victims who are killed at the hands of their abusers by a gun, death could have been avoided by not entering the relationship in the first place once they found out the other person owned guns. That too, is simplistic as you also pointed out. What if they're already head over heels in love? Are they supposed to make the other person fill out a dating application? It's ridiculous.

I can tell you though, back when I was a single, young woman, if I found out the guy I was dating was into guns, it would have been a deal breaker for me, unless he was a farmer or rancher or something. It's not fair, but there it is. I can also tell you that when my son was a little guy he was invited to spend the night at a friends house where the dad had guns. It made me uneasy and before he could go, I called the parents told them I was uneasy about it and they assured me that everything was well locked up and there was no plan to take them out while he spent the night.

Of course, I'm also the same mom who flew him back to college this winter last minute because I didn't want him driving ten hours with his friends, even though they've done it many times.

[aikoaiko]

38. How about we teach people to avoid abusive mates and get help regardless of gun ownership

Or are abused women just exploitable victims for anti-gun pursuits?

[LeftyMom]

40. How about "I don't date guys who hate women?"

The crazy fuck who put me in the hospital didn't own a gun.

[Hangingon]

41. My wife is a gun owner.

My family has had a couple of law enforcement officers. It is just anecdotal, but most spouse abuses don't involve guns. If charges are pressed, guns possession by the abuser isn't allowed.

[benEzra]

43. Bullshit.

From the U.S. Department of Justice:



One third of U.S. gun owners are women, but you'd never know it from the paid mouthpieces at gunguys.com...

[ensho]

48. who is paying the mouthpieces? who is putting out the money?

nt

[benEzra]

57. The same pocket that funds most of the U.S. gun-prohibition lobby.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/davepc/2

That's not to say that everything on gunguys.com is crap, but a lot of it is, and one should view their press releases with exactly the same skepticism that one would use for an NRA press release.

[Ordr]

45. Tripe.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Oh Man That Was Too Silly!

If these fools in that article think for a second that taking the guns away from them would thwart the violence, then they're likely some of the most stupid people on the planet.

The men who do such things do so out of complete anger, control, bitterness and impulse. They are filled with rage at the loss of their control and lash out impulsively and violently to the point of homicide as the ultimate means to an end. Now if they think for a second that taking the guns away would all of a sudden make these men go "oh well. No gun. I guess I'll have to get over my anger and just deal with it in healthy ways", then they're friggin totally out of their minds. Men in that state of mind are going to do what they're gonna do, guns or no guns. It is about anger and control, not convenience. All taking the guns away means is the guy would use a knife or his own limbs instead. That article is quite dumb.

[slackmaster]

52. We already have mental health screening for gun purchases

Anyone who has been adjudicated as mentally incompetent cannot legally buy a gun.

Anyone who has been convicted of a domestic violence crime, even a misdemeanor, also cannot legally buy a gun.

[fireonthemountain]

53. "I would kill you 120 pound woman if only i had a gun!"

for some reason i don't think lack of guns would stop this.

[Firespirit]

54. It's very difficult where I currently live, but as soon as I move, I'm

getting a license and starting a gun fund for myself for precisely that reason. My father is a verbal abuser and it began in the past 15 years (out of a 40-year relationship). Things can go sour anytime, men often DO have violent tendencies, I AM a small person, and if it came to it, I'd want a gun to defend myself.

[Edweird]

60. Good for you for taking responsibility for your own safety.

I will offer you 4 bits of unsolicited advice.

1) Buy or borrow a CO2 pistol. They are inexpensive to buy and shoot. They are relatively harmless. They have essentially no recoil. They are fun to shoot. You will learn the basics of firearm safety AND most importantly get used to pulling the trigger and hearing a noise. It's just enough to work on your flinch reflex and aiming skills. With the proper setup (a pellet trap - $20.00) you can do this at home in your living room.

2) Once you feel totally comfortable with the pellet pistol noise and action and can hit what you are aiming at, go to a range. Many ranges rent guns for a small fee. Rent a .22. (you will have to buy your own ammo as well as pay for the range time on top of the gun rental. It can add up, so get info ahead of time) The guy behind the counter should be more than happy to show you how to use it. If not, you're at the wrong range. Get comfortable with the .22, where you don't flinch or dip the barrel in anticipation, and the recoil doesn't bother you and you hit where you are aiming. Then move up. .32acp. .38 .357 .45. Don't try to do this too fast. Take your time. Use this experience to determine what fits your hands and what doesn't as well as what "works" for you.

3) Everybody is an "expert". "My favorite caliber/handgun/stance/whatever is the best because...." Don't let anybody dictate what type of gun or caliber you end up buying. Do your own research. Rent guns. It's important to find a weapon that suits YOUR needs. Do research on ballistics and real world incidences. Ballistics gelatin doesn't lie.

4) When you finally do decide on a weapon, practice practice practice. Until you know your weapon inside and out, backwards and forwards.

Happy Shooting.

[ourbluenation]

65. Most victims of death by guns in domestic violence probably had many years of abuse leading up to

the death. The key is to teach young people appropriate ways of dealing with relationship problems, but that doesn't help the people who find themselves in abusive relationships right now. People don't become abusers overnight. It's a gradual process that might not reveal itself until the relationship is well established.

I think telling people not to date guys with guns is too simplistic. It's also offensive to law abiding gun owners who would never hurt anyone, especially someone they love.