Horrifying story of birthing middle school mothers

[kevinbgoode]

I hardly know what to say about this story. . .except it is not only shocking but how awful for the young mother to have apparently suffered through this without any help. . .

BAYTOWN, Texas - Authorities in Texas said a baby born to a 14-year-old girl in a school bathroom was alive before she tried to flush it down the toilet, killing him.

Police said an autopsy confirmed the infant was born alive at Cedar Bayou Junior High in Baytown, near Houston. The boy was probably full term and cried before the mother, an eighth-grader, tried to flush him.

The girl was taken to a hospital. The Houston Chronicle reported people who knew her at school say she wore baggy clothing, and nobody suspected she was pregnant.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23949915/

[bluestateguy]

1. I'd like to know who the "father" of this dead baby was

If he was an adult he should be put in jail. If he was also a middle schooler, then he should be sentenced to spend about 15 minutes alone with his girlfriend's father.

[Matariki]

47. Or maybe her parents, who she was probably too afraid of to approach about an abortion

Does Texas have parental notification laws for minors seeking abortions?

[Yupster]

96. What an odd response

A girl murders a newborn baby and you're blaming someone who wasn't even there, maybe didn't even know he had made anyone pregnant.

[XemaSab]

2. SO sad.

:(

California has a surrender law where women can legally "abandon" their babies at fire stations or hospital emergency rooms.

The story behind the law is REALLY sad but also hopeful... there was an article about it in Reader's Digest a few years ago. There was a woman who started paying for dead, abandoned babies to get a proper burial, and she was the main proponent of the law in this state.

[grannylib]

4. We have the same law in Minnesota, and it's actually been

in the papers a couple of times where a woman has taken her baby to the hospital so that someone who's ready to care for it can have that opportunity...
It's horribly sad when a girl/young woman/woman feels she has no other options than to resort to something like this :-(

[TrogL]

16. Why in fuck do you read Reader's Digest?

It's rightwing crap full of lies and distortions.

Doctors up here won't have in their waiting rooms because it upsets the patients.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Yes it is.

It's rightwing crap -- exactly.

As H. L. Mencken said, "Every problem has an answer that is neat, simple -- and wrong".

That's exactly their attitude.

Once I was reading Reader's Indigestion at grandma's house because there was NOTHING ELSE to read.

Dad came over, grabbed it out of my hands and threw it across the room.

Later I figured out why he did that.

Fascist conformist horseshit is what that waste-of-pulp was.

[XemaSab]

18. I was takin' my grandma to the doctor

:shrug:

[leftynyc]

38. Don't apologize

You don't have to answer to anyone as to what you read and why. The person asking was behaving like an asshole and accusing someone of god knows what because of what they read is the same big brother crap we hate the patriot act for.

[LanternWaste]

40. Rigid, idealogical purity

"Don't apologize"

Absolutely. You'd think there's some type of rigid, idealogical purity test people would want us to adhere to-- kinda like they do on the right...

Maybe book-burnings are next... :shrug:

[Cerridwen]

44. I grew up reading Reader's Digest - even had a subscription for

many years. I'm 50. Started reading grandma's then mom's copies of them. I loved "Humor in Uniform" and a couple of the other "humor forums" the names of which I don't remember at this time. The little jokes and anecdotes were always fun, too.

I stopped reading it some years back. No particular reason other than my magazine subscriptions totals were starting to look like the national debt. :D

I'm so far left I make most liberals, some socialists, and even a few communists squirm when I begin a rant.

In spite of what the TSA and HSA catapult into the "public mind", you are not what you read. I also own a copy of The Book of Mormon, two versions of the Bible, a wide collection of SciFi and fantasy, an almost as wide selection of Feminist tomes, journals, and critiques, many critiques of religious literature, "Fart Proudly" writings of Benjamin Franklin, most of my college textbooks, Pagan and New Age Bibles, writings, and guides, and, oh hell, you get the idea. In addition to my "private" collection, I've independently utilized libraries since I was about 8 years old; prior to that (I started reading when I was 2 or 3) I raided my grandparents' and parents' collections and magazines.

What I've found is that all those viewpoints, all those ideas presented by an eclectic mix of authors, journalists, reporters, and the various categories of writers have made it possible for me to understand a wide range and eclectic mix of...people and our place(s) in the world and our place(s) in time.

[XemaSab]

63. I'm an equal opportunity reader

It's good to be exposed to a diversity of opinions. :thumbsup:

[timtom]

65. it used to have great jokes.

And I agree, it has long been a bastion or rw thought.

I happen to have acquired a bound copy of 1944 RDs. I'll have to review. Don't think it was as RW then.

[goddess40]

21. The key word in your post is "women" this was a girl

a scared middle school girl. Too many people make the mistake of expecting that girls that are pregnant are more mature and responsible than their non-pregnant age mates. The mere fact that they are so young and pregnant disproves that but people continue to treat them differently.

It is so sad that this girl didn't have anyone she felt she could confide in. I would like to know what if any sex education she had.

[XemaSab]

64. "Women" in my post

means females old enough to have babies.

I have nothing but compassion for the girl in the article, but I also have nothing but compassion for her baby.

It's pathetic that we don't give young girls information on preventing pregnancy or on options available once pregnant, including abortion, adoption, or even legal abandonment. :(

[leftynyc]

37. Are there no safe haven laws in TX??

I thought all states had this by now.

[LanternWaste]

41. There are Safe Haven laws in TX.

There are Safe Haven laws in TX. I do know that much. I'm not familiar with them very well though (as I've never had children), but I think ours are pretty much the same as in other states...

[KamaAina]

48. All but two do

Hawai'i was the third holdout, thanks to vetoes from the repuke governor. Finally the overwhelmingly Dem legislature sucked it up and overrode last year's veto.

[Triana]

3. Why should she be charged with anything?

This is a situation that a 14-year girl is NOT equipped to deal with - emotionally, psychologically or physically - and as noted - she had ZERO support or help from anyone - and probably was scared to death to ask due to shame.

Where the HELL is the father of this child? Speaking of being charged with things?

This society SO disgusts me sometimes. Are we E-VER going to evolve beyond this? WHERE is the support for girls like her? All they GET is shamed, blamed, and told what bad, immoral people they are. The MALE who got her pregnant? Where is HE?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. We have a baby surrender law in Texas too.

Baytown is a suburb east of Houston with the Exxon refinery.

[SuperDuperSocialist]

15. Did we read the same article?

Was the father mentioned anywhere? Do we know whether he was or was not aware or involved? Based on that article, her actions could have been a total last minute panic.

I agree with the points in the rest of your comment, but damn, roll the man-hate back a notch.

[Triana]

33. The father was "not aware or involved"?!

Excuse me? HOW do you think the girl got pregnant?

Pffft!

Wow.

[SuperDuperSocialist]

50. Maybe they had sex once and never spoke again.

Quit making ASSumptions. My point was simply that the article makes no mention of the man. Anything beyond that, you made up.

EDITED TO ADD: Pffft! Wow.

[tomreedtoon]

53. Maybe they had sex once...and Dad went back to his bed.

After smacking the girl across the face and telling her that she'd better not tell anyone.

You people are so unimaginative. And so trusting of parents, teachers, all the adults that children have to duck and dodge as they try to grow up.

[SuperDuperSocialist]

54. I'm not sure what your point was...

No really. WTF are you talking about?

Articulate each point clearly and I will respond to them individually.

[tomreedtoon]

59. I'm saying the girl was possibly raped by her father.

Maybe you don't know such things happen. They do. They aren't simply a recreational activity in the rural South.

A girl who was raped by her father would never talk about it. She was obeying her father by staying quiet. (Be especially suspicious if the father is an overt, loud, self-publicizing Christian.)

And yes, I'm making that guess in total darkness. It won't be proveable. If the police get close to the father, he'll kill himself and his daughter and the whole thing will be defined as "unsolved."

And besides that point, there is this: a girl this young, unless she was screamingly, rubber-room insane, would not choose to have sex with someone. It was forced on her, and that force is quite often from parents or authority figures who would intimdate her into silence.

As I said about the other posters, I say specifically about you, SuperDuperSocialist; you don't seem to know how sadistic and evil adults are, especially when they are placed in positions of authority over children. Maybe this case, and the coming tragedy of this girl's life, might teach you something.

[FlyingTiger]

68. Jesus, you must be sheltered....

"And besides that point, there is this: a girl this young, unless she was screamingly, rubber-room insane, would not choose to have sex with someone."

Please tell me that this is just some sort of incredibly subtle sarcasm that's flying over my head.

[tomreedtoon]

74. So you're suggesting she was "asking for it?" Sheesh.

And you claim I'm out of it. Parents had better watch those sluttish toddlers of theirs, before they tempt a good man into an ugly act, right? Sheesh again.

[tkmorris]

77. I think the suggestion is rather that

The world is full of 14 year old girls who do, in fact, choose to have sex, all on their own. Really, they do. You seem to be completely unaware of that, which is kind of endearing in an odd fashion, but it's true nonetheless.

[kdmorris]

71. And you apparently don't know much about 14 year old girls

"there is this: a girl this young, unless she was screamingly, rubber-room insane, would not choose to have sex with someone."

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. I'm NOT saying that girls don't get raped by their fathers, or have sex with much older men who might coerce them into it, but, having been a 14 girl myself, having had 2 sisters who were 14 at one point, female cousins, lots of female friends and 3 daughters (who are 16, 18 and 20 now), I can assure you that 14 year old girls do NOT have to be insane to want to have sex with someone. That's also not to say that I would encourage it, as they are too young at 14, but... it's certainly not an aberration.

In fact, I'd say it's pretty normal.

[Yupster]

98. Maybe she was raped by her dad

Maybe she has a 14 year old boyfriend.
Maybe she just had sex with a boy at a party and doesn't even remember his name.

We don't have any clue yet.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

101. Just wow...

"I'm saying the girl was possibly raped by her father."

Or a brother or a teacher, or a student, or had sex willingly with someone else anything based on this article is pure speculation.

"A girl who was raped by her father would never talk about it."

I would guess you're right on this but a girl who had sex and got pregnant in a consntual act might also not talk about it.

"Be especially suspicious if the father is an overt, loud, self-publicizing Christian"

Your bias is showing, do you have *any* evidence to statistically say kids are more often raped by regular church attending Christan family members than not? What about DUers who are Christian and forward with their faith they are, in your mind, rape suspects...

"a girl this young, unless she was screamingly, rubber-room insane, would not choose to have sex with someone."

Are you kidding? kids at 14 have to be insane to have consensual sex? you are aware today

Twenty-three percent of all 14-year-olds and 30 percent of all 15-year-olds have had sexual intercourse (http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsyoungerteens.htm). You're telling me 23 percent of all 14 year olds are rubber room insane or raped by their bible thumping dads?

[Triana]

58. Yea. The NEVER make any mention of the male do they? There were TWO people at least who knew....

...who the father was.

SHE is ONE of them.

HE is the second. Why is it up to HER (or anyone else) to reveal who this sperm donor is. HE ought to be doing that himself.

Oh. But I forgot. Males aren't "responsible" for that. Their body parts just go wherever and they have absolutely NO knowledge or control of it, eh? That's what the papers would have us believe.

Right. I don't think so.

[FlyingTiger]

69. He "ought" to be?

So, you see the decision of an extremely young kid to NOT voluntarily submit himself to God-only-knows what kind of punishment and ostracism as some sort of giant male conspiracy?

Do you get pissed because murderers "ought" to turn themselves in, too?

[tomreedtoon]

75. You misunderstood. I said HER father was the father.

And there are some people who responded with disbelief, saying that she actively seduced someone. That's right, 'cause fourteen year old girls are real seductresses.

I am, of course, only supposing her father raped her. But that might explain her silence, and how her own family never noticed it. Regular beatings can insure silence from any involved parties. (Sure, her father wouldn't notice her growing another human being inside her. He couldn't tell with the monkeys flying out of his butt. Right.)

[Codeine]

82. Dude, 14-year-old girls have sex. Willingly.

Enthusiastically. All the time. Where the hell do you live that you are unaware that human sexuality kicks in for most young people about that time?

[tomreedtoon]

87. So, you're making the girl a slut. How nice.

And here I thought the virgin/whore dichotomy was over with. Silly me.

[Codeine]

90. Slut? How about normal kid

with normal urges? Did YOU want to have sex when you were 14? I sure as hell did -- no luck, but plenty of my peers were doing better than I. And that was the pre-intarwebz/MySpace days; everything is even more hyper-sexualized for young people now.

You either have some kind of huge chip on your shoulder or you're about the lamest troll ever.

[tomreedtoon]

106. How about a person angry enough to do something?

Yes, I know how stupid 14 year olds can be. I was one myself. But I had parents who did their best to keep me from being stupid. It didn't work with all my siblings, but it did with me.

Someone is at fault here for this girl doing this horrid thing. I am gentleman enough to initially assume that it wasn't the girl herself. That means her parents didn't raise her right, or someone exploited her. If you come out assuming that the girl was "asking for it," I can only see that as a blame-the-victim sentiment, and a sexist one at that.

[kdmorris]

93. Wow, you would make me laugh if your arguments weren't so pathetic

Saying it's normal for a 14 year old girl (or boy, for that matter) to want to have sex means we are calling her a slut.

But, if a 14 year old girl ends up pregnant, you have not problem whatsoever calling her father a brutal rapist, and to add insult to injury, add in that he's a wife abuser, too.

Grow up.

[kdmorris]

84. Now that they have identified the father...

AND the story simply says "he hasn't been interviewed yet" (it sure as hell would have mentioned if he was going to be arrested, if it was her father), are you willing to loudly and stridently apologize to the father of this girl and proclaim his innocense, just as loudly as your proclaimed his guilt?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3116705#3127503

[tomreedtoon]

86. Let him apologize first.

He is either (1) involved in the coverup or (2) so stupid that interviewing a rock would provide better evidence. In either case, he's guilty of SOMETHING. And yes, stupidity by someone who has a child and tries to raise a child is a criminal offense.

[tkmorris]

88. So that would be a "No" then?

You flat out accuse the father of RAPING the girl, then when it turns out not to be true you say..... hell, I have no idea what you said. It looks like gibberish to me. I sure don't see the word "sorry" in it anywhere though.

You have objectivity issues friend.

[kdmorris]

92. More assumptions

As far as we know, he didn't do anything to apologize for.

Unless we decide to let you be King of the Land.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. Bullshit.

First: there's no reason to assume that she told anyone she was pregnant - including the father.
Second: there's no reason to assume that the father wasn't another 14 year old - equally incapable of rational decisionmaking.
Third: the father is responsible for helping to care for the child if the mother decides to give birth to it. He's not responsible for her subsequent decision to kill it.

[Yupster]

99. Why do you assume the male knew?

Maybe he did, but males being called years later to find out they are fathers is certainly not unheard of.

Neither is fathers never knowing they fathered kids.

Sometimes males think they are fathers their whole life but the kid they raise is not actually biologically there's.

Most women tell. Some don't. Some women aren't sure themselves who the real dad is.

Often the info comes out when a medical procedure is being performed and it turned out that dad couldn't have been the father of his son or daughter. As DNA testing is more widely used in medicine, it's becoming a surprise that happens much more than anyone ever suspected.

[Yupster]

97. Have you never heard of a man

being informed that he had a kid, maybe eight years old? Sometimes quite a shocking phone call to receive.

[tkmorris]

20. What exactly would you charge him with?

He's not the one who flushed a living infant down a toilet. And what makes you think a 14 year old boy is better equipped to deal with it than the girl is?

[Triana]

34. Well - if they're talking charging HER with something...

...you know it took TWO to get her pregnant. And if SHE should be charged then certainly so should the sperm donor. And if HE shouldn't / couldn't be charged then NEITHER can/should SHE. EITHER WAY - if ONE is charged so should be the other - or NEITHER.

HE didn't flush the baby down the toilet because HE wasn't the one who got stuck with an unwanted pregnancy at 14 - SHE was.

How convenient, eh? Always is...for HIM.

[Mad_Dem_X]

46. Well said!

"HE didn't flush the baby down the toilet because HE wasn't the one who got stuck with an unwanted pregnancy at 14 - SHE was."

Exactly!

[Ghost in the Machine]

60. My what a high horse you sit upon whilst man bashing...

Come down off of your elevated steed and try to think logically for a minute.

First off, you need to prove that the male even knew she was pregnant since you stated as a fact that at least 2 people KNEW she was. The article says NO ONE in her classes even knew because she wore baggy clothes. She didn't telly anyone else.. what makes you so certain that she told the father??

Well - if they're talking charging HER with something...
Posted by Triana
...you know it took TWO to get her pregnant. And if SHE should be charged then certainly so should the sperm donor. And if HE shouldn't / couldn't be charged then NEITHER can/should SHE. EITHER WAY - if ONE is charged so should be the other - or NEITHER.

HE didn't flush the baby down the toilet because HE wasn't the one who got stuck with an unwanted pregnancy at 14 - SHE was.

Ok, it took two to get her pregnant, but she CHOSE not to tell anyone, out fear, shame or whatever reason, then she CHOSE to try to flush the baby down the toilet, after apparently giving birth, ALONE, in the bathroom... and you think the male should be charged too, just because he got her pregnant...

By your words posted herein, we can all assume that you feel that men should have a say in a womans choice to have an abortion, right? I mean, afterall, he *did* get her pregnant, right?

:popcorn:

[JVS]

62. But it only takes one to flush an infant down the toilet.

Getting pregnant and impregnating are not crimes. Infanticide is.

[lapislzi]

26. Short of the girl naming names or the male coming forward...

There's not much anyone can do. Seems to me that if the girl felt that she couldn't go to any of the adults in her life with the situation, she is unlikely to divulge the name of the father. Maybe she has a good reason not to.

This in no way exonerates the guilty party (him), but short of performing a DNA test on every boy in the school (as well as teachers, family members, et al), what can be done?

Situations like these sadden me greatly. How desperate she must have felt to have believed that killing a newborn was the best, and only, way out of her plight.

[Triana]

36. It is very sad...and so unnecessary (n/t)

[Rage for Order]

39. A 14 year old girl isn't equipped emotionally, psychologically or physically to deal with pregnancy?

[uppityperson]

81. In this case she obviously wasn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. What should the father be charged with?

She killed his child.

[varelse]

5. This is a textbook example of just how BAD

abstinence-only "sex education" can be.

[Duke Newcombe]

8. This is possibly true...

..or, it can be an example of the failure of decades of sex education in the public schools.

Duke

[Initech]

12. Or it could explain American hypocrisy.

Abstinence only sex education followed by............. ads for boner pills 24 hours a fucking day! :mad:

Stories like this really piss me off.

[TCJ70]

27. Why? We don't have those kinds of details on this story...nt

[Progressive_In_NC]

29. You know what, I don't agree one bit.....

This is a textbook example of just how BAD parenting can be. If that child were born into my family, it would be the entire family's responsibility to help her raise that child, and everyone in my family (which is quite large) would step up to do so. She would still be loved and accepted regardless of whatever mishap might have occurred.

There would be no freakin need for crap like this if the girl's family did it's job.

[kevinbgoode]

7. Well, this next part is equally disturbing. . .

The infant died just three days after another 14-year-old girl delivered a stillborn fetus in the bathroom of an airplane on her way back to Houston from a middle-school field trip.

I wonder if some of these girls are just shocked or are in some kind of denial. I remember my sister (many years ago) was under 18 and pregnant and it didn't show at all - it just looked like she had gained a little weight. My parents discovered it when her water broke. She had no prenatal care, no one to talk to . . .and she was certainly older than these girls.

[riderinthestorm]

9. This CHILD probably didn't know about any baby surrender laws

even if she were to have discovered a way to birth the baby AND get it out of the school without being seen or apprehended in order to get it to a baby surrender center.

I can't even imagine this absolutely terrifying day for the poor girl. Terrible on all levels.

[hedgehog]

10. When my kids were in junior high, they were under such strict control that

they never got a chance to pee all day. Didn't anyone notice that this girl was in the john that long?

[southerncrone]

11. Abstinence only + sex-in-their-face-24/7 = this type of tragedy

Kids are receiving mixed messages about sex. They are told abstinence only, but look at what is on TV, movies & in songs. All of it is sex, sex, sex. Yet THEY are supposed to RESIST this. It's pure insanity to expect kids not to act on what they SEE, as opposed to what they are TOLD!

We need to get out of the Victorian era & start having a real & natural discussion about sex with our kids.

[margotb822]

13. Where the F are the parents

Uhhhhhh, hello. How uninvolved can you be if you don't realize that she's pregnant...for NINE months!!! It's not like it happens quickly.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Well, with an awful lot of really young pregnant girls

the father of the baby is often much older, sometimes the mother's boyfriend. There's a whole scummy subculture of men who seek out and move in with women who have pre-teen and early teen daughters.

[Sequoia]

79. Lolita !!

I feel badly for that girl. No one helped her, she was basically alone. I wonder if she had any friends. I'll bet she grew up in a fundlementalist home. With them, having a baby out of wedlock is the path to hell.

[Berry Cool]

19. Doesn't anyone remember the story of the young woman who gave birth at the prom

in the bathroom, killed the baby, then went out and continued dancing and partying?

Terrible stories.

[Dorian Gray]

32. A story like that

happened in Red Bank, NJ years ago. (Red Bank Catholic High School) I remember being shocked about it, as that's where I'm from. (Though I went to the public school.)

[MiniMe]

22. Her parents were probably right-wing fundies who preach abstinence only

She probably thought her parents would disown her if they found out about her having sex let alone that she got pregnant. She probably got no birth control education and was told that condoms don't work. Another victim of the abstinence only programs

[Solon]

23. Couple of thoughts about the article and some of the responses...

What this girl went through is horrible, but it doesn't justify her actions, the biggest tragedy is that she apparently felt that there were no adults she felt safe enough to confide in about her condition.

On some of the responses, before people decide to lay the blame on modern society, please keep in mind that the highest teen pregnancies rates occurred in the 1950s, it was just handled differently, people hid it, even though it happened all the time. Tragedies like this weren't reported on, or if they were, they were glossed over to damn near insignificance. In addition, girls who got pregnant were often sent to special homes by their parents where they came to term, gave birth, and the babies adopted out. Parents, more or less, made up stories as to where the girls went and why.

About the father, two things, if he's a full fledged adult, he's a pedophile and predator, and should be locked up for that alone. If the father was a boy around her age, then things are quite different, if he was unaware of her condition, which is certainly possible, then the worse he's guilty of is bad judgment, most likely combined with bad sex education. If he did know, then he should have told an adult he trusted, but again, he's not necessarily responsible for this girl's behavior that lead to the baby's death. On a moral level, he may be an asshole or just a foolish boy, we really don't know.

One thing I will say is similar between now and the 1950s, inadequate sex education, particularly when it comes to birth control. These are teenagers, and they will do what teenagers do, and that's to fuck, to be blunt about it. This means they need to be armed with the knowledge to protect themselves from just this situation, with both education and access to birth control. The only other alternative would be to find a way to suppress the sex drive in teenagers, and as we know, giving drugs to teenagers that mess with their hormones or chemistry can have unexpected and tragic consequences.

[Triana]

35. it may not "justify" her actions but the fact is that a 14-year-old GIRL was stuck..

...dealing emotionally with something that she was NOT equipped to deal with - for lots of stupid reasons that this society should have long since evolved beyond.

PERIOD.

I'll tell you want isn't "justified" - and that is the fact that teen girls today are still struggling with this at all when we HAVE the knowledge and means to prevent it, for the most part.

What we lack is simple common sense AND the will as a society to prevent it. But the American Taliban (which controls the gov't and are primarily MALE) will have no part in that and girls like this one get to pay for their control-freak, midieval "beliefs".

SHE isn't the one who lacks justification for this.

[LWolf]

24. It is horrifying from any perspective.

:(

[Firespirit]

25. There really needs to be research into sexual orientation and its causes

There is a minority of people who are asexual, who literally feel no desire, period. Very rarely is it caused by abuse. They simply don't feel a drive and never have.

Until recently, this has been dismissed by psychologists as a pathology, a mental defect rather than a legitimate orientation. It's been written off to repression or phobia. In recent years open-minded research is starting to be done at last. My gut feeling is that it's related to hormones, because prepubescent children don't have sexual urges.

There's some concern that such a discovery would be abused by the medical community to designate lack of sex drive a pathology again, but it seems to me that the same discovery could offer an opportunity to bring puberty back to when it used to be. The age of puberty is now several years earlier than it used to be, and good nutrition is responsible, so obviously we don't want to change that. But we could change the onset of puberty with medical advances. It seems that would go a long way toward cutting teenage pregnancies, as well as reducing the number of years that women deal with menstruation (which contributes to cancer).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. They already know what the sex drive hormone is.

It's testosterone, in both males and females. Females have much less of it than males do, but it is responsible for the sex drive in both sexes.


Are you talking about testosterone blockers?


I got news for you. I don't think it would help.


I am female, and when I was a little kid, before puberty, even at 5 or 8 or 9 years of age, I had crushes on male celebrities, like The Beatles, and I had mental lust attacks, but not physical ones. I think teenage girls are often just as horny as teenage boys. That said, this fourteen year old may have been pressured to have sex, or it might be an incest situation. Teenagers are not given training in decision making about sex or anything else in life. Adults are terrified that if they mention sex, or give children sex education, that will give them the idea to have sex. They're going to have it whether anyone talks about it or not.


Women are not supposed to want sex, or enjoy sex, in our society today. The virgin/whore dichotomy is alive and well, when most women are not virgins or whores, and if they are virgins or whores, it's their business, not somebody else's.

The idea that women have a lesser sex drive than men is B.S. in my opinion. It's not socially acceptable for women to lust after men; if a woman is assertive about going after sex, she's called a slut by society. Women are also inhibited by negative attitudes about sex. There are many women who were raised very strictly, told they were going to hell if they weren't virgins until they married, while their brothers were allowed to go out and stay out all night, and hunt for all the sex they wanted. Double standards are bullshit, but they are out there.

[Firespirit]

52. I didn't say anything about women having a lesser drive

I said there should be research done into why some people go through puberty and develop normally in the physical sense, have no socialization issues, but have no sexual desire.

I cannot believe it's as simple as more or less testosterone.

Whenever they do discover what causes asexuality, there's the cure for pedophiles, and there's a possible solution for teen pregnancy and STDs.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

67. I think your question about people with no sex drive is irrelevant in this case.

The girl was either coerced or she wasn't coerced. Chances are good that she was coerced.

Either way, the male involved had a sex drive. The girl may or may not have had a sex drive.

I don't see how your question is relevant here.

[Firespirit]

70. It's very relevant

If scientists figure out the answer, then there can be research into how to shut off the sex drive -- for whoever. It wouldn't prevent violent rapes that do not have desire involved, but it could be used on predatory men who commit statutory rape. Such as what may have happened here. And of course, on teens, until they at least finish school or become legal adults.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

83. Excuse me, testosterone also causes aggression.

It's why men start wars and fight with each other.

Rape is a crime of violence, so testosterone causes that too.

The courts have experimented with giving sex offenders estrogen to lessen their sex drive, known as "chemical castration".

Even if they don't have any sex drive, and cannot get an erection, they can still use their hands and body parts to molest and rape a child. Estrogen is not an answer to the problem of sex offenders.

You need to do some research.

The research you are talking about has already been done, and it's not an answer.

[Firespirit]

100. You are not reading my posts

Scientists currently do NOT know what causes asexuality. Just like they don't know what causes other sexual orientations. This is completely different from castrating a heterosexual person. I know perfectly well that physical and chemical castration doesn't work on rapists and pedophiles. Most rapes, as I pointed out, are not about desire; however statutory rape often is. Discovering the cause of sexual orientation, and developing ways to alter it medically, could offer a solution to preventing crimes like pedophilia and statutory rape, and parents -- or kids themselves -- might choose to have their teen made asexual for as long as the kid was in school, or a legal minor.

This is not about castration. It's about medically altering sexual orientation. The technology WILL be invented someday to do that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

104. changing sexual orientation?

You do know that sexual orientation is gay or straight or bi, don't you?

The majority of scientists believe that sexual orientation is determined when you are a small child. People don't choose to be gay or straight; they tend to know which sex they are attracted to when they are a small child.

"Keeping your teen asexual as long as they are a minor"????

You obviously don't know a damn thing about human physiology.
You don't know a thing about sperm production in males and menstruation and ovulation in females. They are complex processes.

That is creepy. It also sounds like something that is medically not doable, except through the chemical castration route I already explained, and if it was medically doable, it would be highly inadvisable. Messing around with peoples' hormones is quite dangerous medically. And there are LOTS of different hormones in the body, not just the sexual ones.

Apparently you think that sexuality and sex drive can be easily turned off and on, like a faucet. It's a lot more complex than that, and for now, medical science has no answers to what you're talking about.

Are you some kind of a right wing control freak? I have no idea why you are obsessing on this idea. It's creepy. I would rather that children have proper sex education and know the mechanics of sex, and what to do to prevent pregnancy, and how to say no to sex when they are not ready for it. That's what I would rather see than some Dr. Frankenstein type solution.

[LeftHander]

28. This is what promoting abstenence over birth control get you.....

The egregious influence of the Christian right on COMMON SENSE sexual education in public schools is appalling.

[dogday]

30. Do not think these kids are young, even thought their age is...

I took my daughter out of middle school this semester after finding out some stuff from her about what goes on... These kids know everything and do everything.... It's a shame they can't just grow up naturally anymore....

[Ilsa]

31. These girls are old enough to know right from wrong, but not old enough to

to prioritize doing the right thing over trying to take care of their own needs and desires first. That is why we don't let 14 year olds marry, vote, run for public office, make legitimate and binding contracts, etc. She should be counselled, and so should her family.

Still, you wouldn't believe how many people here in texas on message boards want her executed. One of them even said, "Children having children; fry her!" or words to that effect.

[varelse]

42. There's a lot more we don't know about this child's situation

and her circumstances, compared to the little we do know. The identity of the father, for example, could be the key to the whole mess... what if her male parent or guardian, or another male relative is also the father of the baby? This would radically alter our perception of the "role" played both by her parents (or legal guardians) and also the role played by the father...

Abstinence-only education doesn't prevent a child from being raped or molested. It doesn't give a child many options with regard to dealing with an unplanned pregnancy, and it would tend to discourage a child from coming forward and asking the 'responsible adults' in her life for help.

Proper education for children who are themselves capable of becoming accidental parents is an absolute must. Ideally it would come from the parents or legal guardians, but we already know that not all children are in ideal situations, and the cost to society of failing them is not only the individual tradegy of the lost lives, but also the loss of opportunities to ensure that prenatal care and proper nutrition is provided, so that children born to other children are at least given a fair shot at good health and normal brain development from the start.

[riderinthestorm]

55. Thanks for this post. I got back online tonight to find this thread and post exactly what you did.

Since I'm fighting a big head cold, I wasn't keen about typing out a long and coherent reply. You did it beautifully. Thanks.

[varelse]

56. No problem

hope you feel better soon :hug:

[Fleshdancer]

43. As a parent, how do you not know?

How do you live with someone their entire life and not notice when she's 9 months pregnant?

Do you not see her in pajamas anymore?
Do you not realize that you haven't purchased pads for her for almost a year?
Do you not see a slight waddle in the way she walks or the way she attempts to hide her midsection with clothing and arm positions?
Do you not notice she has to pee every 5 minutes?

I guess it is possible. Not all females turn into a big waddling ball the way I did when I was pregnant. I just hope that if my daughter was going through such dramatic physical and emotional changes, that I would take a moment and actually look at her.


:(

[XemaSab]

66. But you look at how many women go to the doctor with unspecified stomach pains

and an hour later they have a baby, and it's a TOTAL SHOCK...

People are in denial. :shrug:

[Recursion]

73. And if you're a single mom who has to work 3 jobs...

...maybe you really just don't see your kid often at all. Maybe you're only 28 yourself and too run-down and busy to take any time with her.

[tomreedtoon]

76. Regular use of a two-by-four insures no one will notice.

I am still assuming that the girl's father raped her. And beat his wife, the girl and anyone else in the household to make sure that nobody talked.

What's amazing is that nobody on DU thinks that a father could be that evil. Hell, most TEACHERS are that evil. You guys are so naive.

[kdmorris]

78. That's not true

"nobody on DU thinks that a father could be that evil"

It's more appropriate to say "Nobody on DU is assuming that is what happened without any further proof"

Raping your daughter is a horrible, evil thing. Assuming that's what happened to every pregnant 14 year old is pretty fucked up. I think it's abhorrent to start accusing this girl's father of rape when you HAVE NO EVIDENCE that is what happened. It can be anything from something just that evil to something as ubiquitous her having sex with another 14 year old.

Imagine you were the father of that 14 year old girl. How horrible it must be to know what your daughter did, to find out that she didn't trust you to tell you or wasn't educated enough to know she was pregnant (not enough information to know what she thought). How equally horrible to find out that everyone automatically assumes you raped her and she got pregnant from it.

[tomreedtoon]

85. "Oh, how horrible!" Oprah, I didn't know you came here.

Every time I have posted about this, I have always said something like "this is a possibility only." I think, given the silence of the parents and the police, that it's becoming more and more likely a possibility. My best evidence is that for parents not to know that their daughter is pregnant makes them either too stupid to know how to walk...or pretty damn duplicitous.

So, Oprah, would you like to exercise more outrage? Perhaps give the father one of those cars you were so free with on your last Oprah's Greatest Gift shows? Let's see that histrionic sympathy for the prime suspect!

[tkmorris]

89. I'm gonna go out on a very short limb

And assume that you have never had a 14 year old daughter.

And btw, what the hell is this "Oprah" crap anyway? Are you not capable of making a sound argument without resorting to such juvenility?

[tomreedtoon]

105. Just clarifying the stupid Oprah sentiment behind the post.

Oprah doesn't bring about change. She is there to weep. She doesn't give a damn if the wrongdoers are punished. She just wants everyone to have a good cry about the outrage.

Really addressing this person would involve bringing all the suspects - the parents, the boyfriends, maybe even strangers the girl was known to be close to - and grinding the truth out of them.

If the girl actually wanted to have sex, and didn't know the potential consequences - not only to the baby if she had kept it, but to her own life and future - then she has absentee parents who deserve the blame. She is fourteen years old. She is stupid. I was fourteen once and had I not had involved parents, I would have been stupid too.

If she knew and willingly had sex anyway, it's the girl's fault and she should be locked in the rubber room. If the parents didn't educate her, they should get the lock-away. If someone raped her (my personal suspicion) they should be locked away. But tears are not enough.

Maybe the rest of you guys can play Oprah and weep tears at the sad situation. If I were present on the scene, I'd want to shove your Kleenex down your throat, roll up my sleeves and freaking DO something.

[kdmorris]

91. Lots of women don't know they are pregnant

It usually involves overweight women, but nevertheless, it happens.

Just because her parents didn't know doesn't make them "criminally stupid". Who are YOU to judge what makes her parents a criminal? I thought that's what we have the law for. If they had found out that the father of the baby was her father, then obviously, that makes him a criminal. But short of the law determining that he or the girl's mother have actually done something criminal, you need to back off and stop acting like a juvenile little know-it-all.

[Yupster]

102. What amazingly backward thinking

The dad may turn out to be the male in the story.

But how's about we get just a wee bit of evidence before we accuse him of something so awful?

[greenbriar]

49. I have an 8th grader pregnant

in my building.

When she told me, I cried.

This girl is bright and had plans,

now she wants to drop out and get married (the father is also 14)

and have more babies


:(

[aikoaiko]

51. Its a very distuurbing story.

I wonder with what crime the girl with be charged?

[Thickasabrick]

57. It's quite possible the girl didn't realize she was pregnant - until

the baby dropped in the toilet. She could have flushed it out of fear/panic - did she even know what it was? There are many possible scenarios to this story - but I think one must consider at least the possibility of this kid not even knowing she was pregnant.

[Recursion]

72. Just what I was thinking

You're 14, your body is doing weird things anyways, you've been gaining weight and feeling bad all the time, and this bloody squawling mess comes out when you try to go to the bathroom.

[pengillian101]

80. "It's quite possible ..." That's exactly what this news accounts says.

By CINDY HORSWELL

The 14-year-old student whom Baytown police believe tried to flush her newborn son down a toilet in a school bathroom, has denied knowing anything about it.

Her attorney, Gerald Yoakum, speaking on behalf of the Cedar Bayou Junior School student and her parents said Friday that the girl never realized she was pregnant, never saw her baby born and never heard his cry.

"She did not drown her baby like police think," Yoakum said.

Baytown police were continuing their investigation.

The pregnant teen initially sought help from a campus nurse who thought the student was experiencing menstrual cramps and sent her back to class, her friends said Thursday.

"Nobody realized she was pregnant. She never told the nurse or any of us," said Eleni Maiden, 14, who has known the dead baby's mother for nine years.

A school official confirmed the girl visited the nurse's office shortly before giving birth.

The girl, also 14, usually wore baggy clothing and investigators have found no one, including her teachers and parents, who knew she was about to deliver a full-term baby, Baytown police Lt. Eric Freed said.

An autopsy confirmed Thursday that the infant was born alive, squirming and crying, Wednesday morning in a bathroom at Cedar Bayou Junior School.

Eleni Maiden said she ran into her friend while walking to the office on Wednesday. "She told me her stomach was hurting, and she had decided to go to the bathroom instead of going back to the nurse again," Maiden said.

"It was not much longer after that before the ambulance arrived."

Investigators believe they have identified the infant's father but have not interviewed him yet, either, Freed said.

Statements are also being taken from another unidentified student who was in the bathroom when the girl was in labor. The student sought help from the school nurse and an assistant principal who called 911.

Freed said anyone with information about the birth will be interviewed, including emergency medical workers.

Cedar Bayou students described the teen mom as happy-go-lucky, friendly, someone who would never hurt anyone.

"She was good as can be. This is just not something you would expect," said Katrina Stephens, whose daughter is a friend of the girl. "She was involved in choir and had a lot of friends."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5673165.html

:shrug:

[Yupster]

103. I don't know

If she was 14 wioth a ful term pregnancy, my assumption is that she wasn't "good as can be."

Seems like there were some problems going on in her life.

[JVS]

61. Wow. That's fucked up.