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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:59 AM
Original message
THE GUILTY MEN - Pass this on to everyone you know.
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 10:02 AM by ourbluenation
Last week fleshed out some more detail on the Bush administration's torture regime. The third Yoo memo was so egregious even Yoo is finding excuses.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/yoo_i_thought_torture_was_a_ba.php

The pattern of evidence is now strongly suggesting that the legal "fixing" that made illegal torture suddenly legal followed already-made executive decisions to deploy torture and non-Geneva interrogation as the lead tactic in the war on Islamist terrorism. We also discover more evidence

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/guantanamo200805?currentPage=1

of how high up the interest in these interrogations went:

On September 25, as the process of elaborating new interrogation techniques reached a critical point, a delegation of the administration’s most senior lawyers arrived at Guantánamo. The group included the president’s lawyer, Alberto Gonzales, who had by then received the Yoo-Bybee Memo; Vice President Cheney’s lawyer, David Addington, who had contributed to the writing of that memo; the C.I.A.’s John Rizzo, who had asked for a Justice Department sign-off on individual techniques, including waterboarding, and received the second (and still secret) Yoo-Bybee Memo; and Jim Haynes, Rumsfeld’s counsel. They were all well aware of al-Qahtani. “They wanted to know what we were doing to get to this guy,” Dunlavey told me, “and Addington was interested in how we were managing it.” I asked what they had to say. “They brought ideas with them which had been given from sources in D.C.,” Dunlavey said. “They came down to observe and talk.” Throughout this whole period, Dunlavey went on, Rumsfeld was “directly and regularly involved.”

Beaver confirmed the account of the visit. Addington talked a great deal, and it was obvious to her that he was a “very powerful man” and “definitely the guy in charge,” with a booming voice and confident style. Gonzales was quiet. Haynes, a friend and protégé of Addington’s, seemed especially interested in the military commissions, which were to decide the fate of individual detainees. They met with the intelligence people and talked about new interrogation methods. They also witnessed some interrogations. Beaver spent time with the group.

Talking about the episode even long afterward made her visibly anxious. Her hand tapped and she moved restlessly in her chair. She recalled the message they had received from the visitors: Do “whatever needed to be done.” That was a green light from the very top—the lawyers for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the C.I.A. The administration’s version of events—that it became involved in the Guantánamo interrogations only in November, after receiving a list of techniques out of the blue from the “aggressive major general”—was demonstrably false.

When Rumsfeld professed "shock" at the techniques revealed at Abu Ghraib, he was expressing "shock" at interrogation techniques he had already personally examined and approved for use at Gitmo. He was expressing shock after having personally directed one of the architects of the torture regime at Gitmo, Geoffrey Miller, to go to Abu Ghraib to 'Gitmoize" it.

He was lying.


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/04/the-guilty-men.html#more

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep.
Disgraceful.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. updated to add links. n/t
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. I've got to run. Please keep this kicked.
:kick:

tell two friends, and they tell two friends and so on and so on.
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Chimichurri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's really incredible how few people care about this.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. My friend and I were talking about this yesterday.
I mentioned an article that someone had posted on DU by Glen Greenwald regarding the media. In the article, he mentioned the number of news articles printed regarding Obama going bowling versus the John Yoo memo. It was astounding! This is our country -- our country is torturing people. Our country is arresting and holding innocent people without a trial and torturing them!!

People just don't give a fuck.

"Give me American Idol or give me death!"
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. It is very discouraging. n/t
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Chimichurri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. This reminds me of Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine
The idea of shocking the psyche to achieve extreme goals by a rogue few applies here as well.

One has to wonder about a group of people getting together to put a program like this together, approving it then pushing it down the chain of command. What was there objective? Either they get off on seeing others being tortured or they are setting up legal precedence for something more. Perhaps it's a combination of the two. We should all be shivering in our boots about this.

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
39. What's scary is how these machinations of The Few controlling The Many are so effective
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
40. yep. they have a much broader goal in mind.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. I think a lot of people care
but I think most of those same people feel helpless. Our system has failed. These criminals will walk free for life and there is not one damn thing we can do about it.

Shocked dog syndrome, I guess...

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H8fascistcons Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
42. This is so Sad...
Yes, I could not agree more. What the hell is wrong with America, why aren't Democrats in congress and the senate screaming at the top of their lungs about torture!!!!




*Please never forget that the criminal Fascist republicans could not continue to torture and destroy our constitution without the help of the criminal Democrat Fascist enablers Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Rahm Emanuel, Jay Rockefeller, Steny Hoyer. Please never forget until these criminal Democrats are voted out of office, they do not get to pick and choose which crimes against the constitution to ignore. Could you imagine Jack Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy or MLK remaining silent on torture?? OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. The Nuremberg Indictments for Dummies
1. Conspiracy to Wage Aggressive War

2. Waging Aggressive War, or "Crimes Against Peace"

3. War Crimes

4. Crimes Against Humanity


This is why these people are scared shitless.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. What he said was, "Digital cameras!" - remember?
Lying sociopath.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Sociopath is exactly what I was thinking too. Like seriously, clinically etc... n/t
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Who is Beaver?
Beaver confirmed the account of the visit.
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horseshoecrab Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Lt. Col. Diane Beaver, staff judge advocate general at gitmo
from page 2 of the 8 page article: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/guantanamo200805?currentPage=2

"The third element of the administration’s account concerned the legal justification for the new interrogation techniques. This, too, the administration said, had originated in Guantánamo. It was not the result of legal positions taken by politically appointed lawyers in the upper echelons of the administration, and certainly not the Justice Department. The relevant document, also dated October 11, was in the bundle released by Gonzales, a legal memo prepared by Lieutenant Colonel Diane Beaver, the staff judge advocate at Guantánamo. That document—described pointedly by Dell’Orto as a “multi-page, single-spaced legal review”—sought to provide legal authority for all the interrogation techniques. No other legal memo was cited as bearing on aggressive interrogations. The finger of responsibility was intended to point at Diane Beaver."


horseshoecrab
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
12.  Kick...
:kick:
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horseshoecrab Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. k&r n/t
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Why can't I recommend this more than once?
How about a hundred times? Even that's not enough.

This MUST be spread EVERYWHERE.

EVERYWHERE.

We're running out of time to get these bastards while bush is still in office. Well, if that's the case, so be it. Let's get 'em AFTERWARDS then, which might actually work out better since bush won't be around to pardon them and help them beat the rap. After he's out of office (whichever way that happens), he's not going to give a damn what happens to them, and I doubt he'd even pick up the phone on their behalf after that.
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. afternoon kick
:kick:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. war criminals, each and every one....
I live for the day they are jailed for their crimes.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. the comments to the link tpm link are good and informative
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
:kick:
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. in an honest world impeachment hearings would have concluded their guilt by now
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ourbluenation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. bumping for the evening crowd. pass it on evening DU'ers
:kick:
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick for justice
:kick:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. Every American or at least every democratic needs to read this.
The truth will all come out and those bastards are going to jail!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. War Crimes
War Criminals



Thank you for a most important post, ourbluenation.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. War crimes thread
Demands that I ask you why the candidate you are so strongly promoting is not speaking out against actual war crimes and talking about accountability and justice? In fact, I don't understand how any one is all slap happy over either of them, in light of reality, the war crimes and the fact that they both sit in the Senate, and say nothing, and pump the campaign stump, talking about each other. Obama always says he is eager to reach out to and work with the war criminals.
Let me just say flatly that anyone who intends to let Bush and Company walk away unaccosted, and also intends to continue holding prisoners and making new arrests for drug use or petty possesion is a hypocrite, a criminal, and a person who does not know a thing about redemption, justice or the importance of the law.
I am so not impressed with the Patriot Act yes vote of Obama, or his war feeding string of funding votes. His vote for Cheney's energy bill keeps us stuck in the 'we need war' mode. And all of this while torture went on unabated. He looks at war criminals and says 'sure, I'll vote your way!' just like the rest of them.
The only ones who stood up to these criminals were rejected for being short or old. This period of the Primaries is just another case of the rank and file claiming to have strong feelings about the war and the economy and yet failing to express those feelings at the ballot box.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R - and people care plenty
I can remember the first time I read about secret prisons and "enemy combatants" and how Geneva was really not relevant anymore...like vertigo.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
28. Off the table...
This is off the table as well. No one realizes that or wants to accept it. But that is the reality. The next president is not going to have this administration indicted for anything. Even if they wanted to there is no precedence and in fact the precedence would preclude it.

That is why we have impeachment - to hold a president accountable while they are in office. One they leave office, they are, really, above the law with regard to anything they did while in office. After the House votes for impeachment, conviction by the Senate merely removes the president from office. There is no "criminal" proceeding. It just isn't done. The "courtesy" or "exemption" is not written in the Constitution. It just simply is there. Always has been. Were it not, most of the presidents we have had along the way probably would have been indicted after they left office. The "courtesy" or "exemption" is what was really behind Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon. His punishment was the shame of having to resign and he lived in shame for the rest of his life. Despite those who continue to "hail the hero" the reality of Richard Nixon is he was forced to resign or face removal from office for "high crimes and misdemeanors." And that, as they say, was that.

Were the International Court of Justice to charge this administration with war crimes, it would have no jurisdiction. We are not part of the International Court of Justice. Our only hope for justice was Congress. And Nancy Pelosi denied us that. By taking it off the table. Our table.

At this point, Congress is complicit. Is Congress to be tried for war crimes as well? Would Congress be so moral as to even hang their heads in shame? Would Congress resign as Richard Nixon did?

Richard Nixon at least did the right thing. No one in this country, it seems, is capable of doing the right thing. That is our greatest shame.

We will be rid of the Emperor in January. Hopefully we will be rid of the Empress as well. May she rot in Hell along with him.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
30. Sick! & recommend
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
31. This is so maniacal.
I`m truly sickened by it.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. Incredible
It is really disgusting to think of the horrors perpetrated in our name by the Bush Administration. These men truly have no conscience. Forget impeachment - these men need to be prosecuted for war crimes.
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Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. Lying criminals. Kick. nt
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watrwefitinfor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
35. ...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
37. It makes me sick knowing how long this has been going on and how LITTLE
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 09:19 AM by redqueen
has been done to stop it.

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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
38. It's hard to fathom...
...hard, indeed, to fathom, to understand, the mind of someone like Donald Rumsfeld. Obviously intelligent - but so was Prince Machiavelli and, I'm told, the Marquis De Sade. These lawyers were just 'taking orders', but Rumsfeld could have stood in the door at any time and not have suffered a bit.

I suspect the bastard is just fundamentally evil and I hope his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be reminded of the character of person that spawned them every day of their lives - maybe at least that'll be something of a price this sadistic prick would have had to pay. By the way, are you aware that the compound that he bought on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake a few years back was at one time a place where unruly and/or runaway slaves were taken to 'get their minds right' about the proper way for a slave to behave? Whatayabet that as soon as Rumsfeld found out about it's history nothing would do but for him to have it. God I hate these bastards.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
41. Have to add my name to this thread. Are you paying attention Agent Mike?
Some of us actually care about our country and what is happening in our name....

A terrible K & R.
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