The Role of Ideology in the Development of Evil Regimes (Pathocracies)

[Time for change]

Last week I posted on DU “Political Ponerology: A Science of Evil Applied for Political Purposes”. Most of the material for that post was taken from “Political Ponerology – A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes”, by Andrew M. Lobaczewski. Lobaczewski, a psychiatrist, began the research that eventually led to the book more than half a century ago, in collaboration with other researchers, all who are now dead. The research was conducted in secret, as the researchers were all victims of Joseph Stalin’s totalitarian regime, which obviously provided fodder for much of the book’s content.

In my previous post, I began with some comments from the book’s editor, Laura Knight-Jadczyk, on the importance of evil in today’s world:

At the social level, hatred, envy, greed and strife multiply exponentially. Crime increases faster than the population. Combined with wars, insurrections and political purges, multiplied millions across the globe are without adequate food or shelter due to political actions… The totality of human suffering is a dreadful thing…

Jadczyk noted the defining characteristic of a psychopath to be the lack of conscience:

They can imitate feelings, but the only real feelings they seem to have… is a sort of “predatorial hunger” for what they want. All else – all activity – is subsumed to this drive. In short, the psychopath is a predator. If we think about the interactions of predators with their prey in the animal kingdom, we can come to some idea of what is behind the “mask of sanity” of the psychopath. This leads us to an important question: what does the psychopath really get from their victims? It’s easy to see what they are after when they lie and manipulate for money or material goods or power. But in many instances… we can only say that it seems to be that the psychopath enjoys making others suffer.

I noted in my last post four reasons why many evil people are so difficult to identify:
1) Many psychopaths develop the ability to make themselves appear normal.
2) Denial: Many normal people find it very difficult to acknowledge the presence of evil.
3) Many normal (though naïve) people believe that psychopaths are found only in prison.
4) Racism, etc: When evil is perpetrated on “others”, many have a tendency to ignore it.

And I talked at some length about the tremendous damage that is often inflicted on society when psychopaths climb to positions of great power.

In this post I expand on my previous one by discussing the role of ideology in assisting some psychopaths in their quest to acquire control over groups or even whole societies, despite their small numbers in all human populations. An understanding of this process by normal people is very important because the first and most important step in preventing these tragedies is to recognize them in their early stages. But first a word about labeling:


A few words on the labeling of evil

A minority of DU posters responded to my previous post with great concern over the idea of labeling people as “evil”. Their concern appeared to be related to the potential for such labeling to lead to something akin to genocide, as has occurred so frequently during the past century. I understand the concern, but I believe it to be misplaced. I have the following responses to that concern.

First, genocides occur when groups of people are labeled as being inferior or evil based on race or other superficial characteristic. In marked contrast, a proper labeling of people as evil is based on behavior, rather than on any superficial characteristics.

Furthermore, Lobaczewski’s approach to the issue is the opposite of an approach that would be likely to lead to violence. He repeatedly stresses the need to use an objective and scientific approach rather than a moralistic approach to the issue of evil (I myself have difficulty viewing evil through an objective rather than a moralistic approach, but that’s just me). He does not believe in the death penalty. And he repeatedly stresses a preventive rather than a punitive approach. The preventive approach that Lobaczewski discusses emphasizes the need to keep psychopaths out of positions of power where they have the potential to do great harm to other people.

Is there potential for abuse if people are labeled as “evil”? I’m sure there is some potential for that, just like anything else can potentially be abused. Currently we label people with such words as “criminal”, “traitor”, “sex offender”, or many other equally inflammatory terms when a person’s behavior is legally (or otherwise) determined to fit those categories.

The reason why I and Lobaczewski believe it is important to pursue scientific inquiry into the causes and recognition of evil, and how to prevent its widespread perpetration on human populations, is as follows: When psychopaths gain control over societies, the potential for war, death and destruction is tremendous. Such occurrences have been way too frequent in both the distant and the recent historical record. Labels are necessary if we are to have the ability to talk about a subject. For example, lithium has been used with great success to treat people with manic-depressive illness. It would be very awkward and perhaps impossible to develop and use treatment against a disease that we were prohibited from naming. How are the results of scientific research to be shared with regard to a subject that has no name? The understanding of evil is way too important to allow it to be shackled in that manner.


The role of ideology in the ponerogenic process

Lobaczewski writes a lot about the role of ideology for individuals or groups in the ponerogenic process that leads to pathocracies*. The ideology itself is usually not inherently evil (although it may be, as in the case of Nazism), and the ideology does not generally characterize the movement or group. Rather, the ideology serves as a mask, to hide the actual intentions of the group. Lobaczewski explains it like this:

It is a common phenomenon for a ponerogenic association or group to contain a particular ideology which always justifies its activities and furnishes motivational propaganda…. Human nature demands that vile matters be haloed by an over-compensatory mystique in order to silence one’s conscience and to deceive consciousness and critical faculties, whether one’s own or those of others.

If such a ponerogenic union could be stripped of its ideology, nothing would remain except psychological and moral pathology, naked and unattractive. Such stripping would of course provoke “moral outrage”, and not only among the members of the union.

The fact is, even normal people, who condemn this kind of union along with its ideologies, feel hurt and deprived of something constituting part of their own romanticism, their way of perceiving reality when a widely idealized group is exposed as little more than a gang of criminals.

A perfect example of this explanation, in my opinion, is the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq. If George Bush and Dick Cheney had told the American public, in their run-up to war, that it was necessary to invade and occupy Iraq in order to open up tens of billions of dollars worth of economic opportunity for their corporate cronies and to gain access to Iraqi oil, the American people and even their corporate news media would have been hard pressed to drum up much enthusiasm for war. Instead, we were provided with (especially after the “weapons of mass destruction” excuse was proven to be a lie) the ideology of democracy (We’re doing it to bring democracy to the Iraqi people) and anti-terrorism (We have to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here.)

The last paragraph of Lobaczewski’s that I cite above explains why so many normal Americans are willing to accept the Bush administration’s lame excuses. Acknowledging that our President and Vice President are no more than criminal thugs and psychopaths is just too painful for most Americans. It is much more comfortable for them to believe that their country goes to war for idealistic and generous purposes.

Let’s now consider how four different ideologies, none of which are inherently evil, have been corrupted for political purposes:

* A pathocracy is a social movement, society, nation, or empire that is controlled by evil individuals and habitually perpetrates evil deeds on its people and/or other people. The “ponerogenic process” leads to the development of a pathocracy.

Americanism
One could make a good argument that the U.S. Declaration of Independence, which after all provided the full justification for our country becoming a sovereign nation, contains the true, uncorrupted version of Americanism. There are two salient ideas expressed in that document, which also happen to be the epitome of liberal/progressive values: 1) That everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and 2) Whenever a government becomes destructive of those rights, the people have the right overthrow that government. I am in 100% agreement with those ideas.

Unfortunately, however, that ideology has become badly corrupted, especially under the current presidential administration. For George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the right wing ideologues who support them, “Americanism” has become the ideology that says that the United States of America is so superior to all other nations that any action it takes with respect to other nations should automatically and unquestionably be considered morally right. For an American citizen to think or act otherwise is to border on treason.

“Americanism” in that form has been used to declare wars against nations that pose no threat to us and to overthrow numerous democratically elected governments that likewise posed no threat to us.

Consider this speech:

As long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny – prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder – violence will gather… and raise a mortal threat.

There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human freedom.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends upon the survival of liberty in other lands. The best hope for freedom in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.

That speech invokes the best of the American dream and ideals. There was just one problem with it. It was spoken by George Bush as a means of justifying an action (the invasion and occupation of Iraq) that had nothing whatsoever to do with the wonderful sentiments expressed in his speech. He was merely using a great ideology as a mask to hide his true motives.

Christianity
Christianity contains some core values that any liberal/progressive could be proud to live by. Jesus Christ preached that we should love our neighbors, treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves, and be charitable towards the poor. In short, he embodied the best of liberal values. Accordingly, Christian groups have done some great things over the centuries, including playing a leading role in the abolition of slavery in the United States.

One could say, I suppose, that the Christian Bible contains the full content of Christian doctrine. Looked at in that way I suppose that one could say that it states some ideas that are patently absurd (such as the Earth being four thousand years old) or even contain the seeds of evil. I won’t go into that, mainly because different people interpret it in very different ways.

But Christianity has also often been used to justify evil actions, including wars of aggression and torture of “non-believers” with the aim of getting them to convert to Christianity. Some, even today, still use Christianity to justify slavery, as Patrick Buchanan recently did in his attempt to put his criticisms of Barack Obama in the best light:

The Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these: First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Capitalism
Capitalism carries the potential, by means of providing incentives for productivity, to act as an engine of economic growth that provides tremendous benefits to a society. Forget for a moment that there is no such thing as pure capitalism, or that society works best economically when it uses some combination of capitalism and socialism. My only point here is that (I believe) capitalism has the capacity to provide substantial benefits to people when used as one component of an economic system.

Capitalism is one of the main ideologies used by the Bush/Cheney administration, and it is used as justification for all manner of policies that hurt people, such as George Bush’s veto of health insurance for children. Bush likes to characterize his view of capitalism as “free market”, and as such he uses that ideology to push for international agreements that primarily benefit his corporate friends.

But in fact, there is nothing “free market” about the Bush/Cheney brand of capitalism, if indeed it can be categorized as capitalism at all. Rather, their favored economic system is one in which their corporate cronies are given billions of dollars in no-bid contracts to perform functions for which they have little expertise, with little or no oversight from government. The result has been billions of dollars of missing money, with no investigations to determine where the money went. That’s a mighty strange brand of capitalism.

James Petras, in “Rulers and Ruled”, describes how so-called “capitalism” has worked out in recent years in so many countries:

Given the enormous class and income disparities in Russia, Latin America and China, it is more accurate to describe these countries as “surging billionaires” rather than “emerging markets” because it is not the “free market” but the political power of the billionaires that dictates policy

Countries of “surging billionaires” produce burgeoning poverty, submerging living standards. The making of billionaires means the unmaking of civil society – the weakening of social solidarity, protective social legislation, pensions, vacations, public health programs and education…

The growth of billionaires is hardly a sign of “general prosperity” resulting from the “free market”… In fact it is the product of the illicit seizure of lucrative public resources, built up by the work and struggle of millions of workers… It has little to do with entrepreneurial skills.

Communism
Communism has been defined as “a socioeconomic structure that promotes the establishment of a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production.” Its initial popularity can be attributed to its promise to greatly reduce economic inequality in societies that were previously characterized by huge levels of economic inequality. That is a worthwhile goal IMO.

My own view is that the best economic system is one that uses a combination of free market incentives to increase productivity, combined with government provision of essential goods and services, goods and services that don’t respond to free market incentives (such as the running of our elections), progressive taxation, and regulation to ensure such things as worker and environmental protection and the prevention of monopolistic practices. Whether or not pure Communism is capable of providing a viable and productive economic system is a question I can’t answer and is not highly relevant to this discussion.

The Russian Revolution of October 1917 brought Communism to Russia, which it maintained for more than 70 years. However, soon after its introduction it began to be seriously corrupted, to the point where by some time in the 1920s it is probably accurate to say that it wasn’t Communism at all. By that time an empire had evolved (called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) into a solidified Totalitarian system, and a small elite ruled over everyone else with an iron fist and had control over all of the country’s resources. Under the iron rule of Joseph Stalin, economic plans were put in place that resulted in the deaths by starvation of about seven million people. This was not a classless society, nor was it stateless, nor was it based on common ownership of the means of production. Yet the myth of a Communist state prevailed in the USSR until it broke up in 1991.


The lessons we should learn from the role of ideologies in the ponerogenic process

In my opinion this is one of the most important issues dealt with in Lobaczewski’s book. There are two major lessons that it should teach us.

First, it should teach us that we should never uncritically accept that an individual’s or a group’s purpose is what they say it is, especially when matters as important as war and peace are at stake.

Second, we should not uncritically blame an ideology for the fact that a group uses it for their own nefarious ends. The great ideals of the American dream, as expressed in its Declaration of Independence, should not be blamed for the fact that our current American leaders justify aggressive war, widespread violation of human rights, and wholesale violation of the U.S. Constitution that they swore to preserve and protect – all in the name of the United States of America. Christianity should not be blamed for the fact that various elites throughout history have used it as an excuse for war, torture, and pilfering other lands – all in the name of Christianity. Capitalism should not be blamed for the corruption it has undergone under our current leaders and the so-called Neoliberal economists, who use it mainly to increase the wealth of small elites, at the expense of everyone else – all in the name of “free market capitalism”. And Communism should not be blamed for the Communist rulers who tyrannized and impoverished the nations that they led – in the name of Communism.


More on the use of ideology in the ponerogenic process leading to pathocracy

In this post I have covered only a portion of Lobaczewski’s description of the ponerogenic process that leads to the development of pathocracies – though I believe it is the most important portion. I intend to cover more of it in a later post.

In my first thread on this subject, some DUers told me that they were looking forward to a follow-up post where I would talk more about how to identify evil. This is a very complex subject. The portions of Lobaczewski’s description of the ponerogenic process that I have omitted from this post deal with that issue in quite a bit of detail. However, the details are very difficult to grasp, especially for people who are not familiar with mental health issues. For example, here is some of Lobaczewski’s continued description of the role of ideologies in the ponerogenic process:

Characteropathic individuals adopt ideologies created by doctrinaire, often schizoidal people, recast them into an active propaganda form, and disseminate it with their characteristic pathological egotism and paranoid intolerance for any philosophies which may differ from their own. They also inspire further transformation of this ideology into its pathological counterpart…. The ideology continuously affects the movement’s activities and remains a justifying motivation for many… The carriers of other pathological factors become engaged in this already sick social movement and proceed with the work of final transformation of the contents… in such a way that it becomes a pathological caricature of its original ideology… Such a situation eventually engenders a wholesale showdown: the adherents of the original ideology are shunted aside or terminated… The ideological motivations and the double talk they created then are utilized to hide the actual new contents of the phenomenon….

In summary: An ideology is used as a mask to hide the true, psychopathic motives of the psychopaths, serving simultaneously to inspire some of the more honest (normal) members of the group. But the psychopaths transform the ideology beyond recognition, to serve their own sick needs, while continuing to use the ideology’s original name so as to hide their true motives. When the true adherents of the ideology realize what’s really going on, they may rebel, and if they do they probably will be shoved aside or much worse.


The identification of evil

So, back to the critical question: How does one identify evil? One of the most important things to understand about this is that most people – perhaps the great majority of people – don’t really want to identify it.

Recall the reasons why evil is so difficult to identify, which I discussed in some detail in my last post and summarized in this post. Three of the four reasons relate to things that apply much less to most DUers than they do to most of the rest of the U.S. population: denial, stereotypical ideas that reject the possibility of finding evil in highly successful people, and racism.

Lobaczewski notes how terribly disorienting and confusing it is for normal people to be exposed to psychopaths and ponerogenic processes:

People who have been thus thrown out of a ponerogenic association because they were too normal suffer bitterly; they are unable to understand their specific state. Their ideal, the reason they joined the group, which constituted a part of the meaning of life for them, has now been degraded, although they cannot find a rational basis for this fact. They feel wronged; they “fight against demons” they are not in a position to identify. The fact is their personalities have already been modified to a certain extent due to saturation by abnormal psychological material, especially psychopathic material.

As I re-read this, the first thing that comes to my mind is members of the U.S. Congress – notwithstanding the fact that they haven’t yet been “thrown out”. Think about it. Maybe this is closely related to the reason why no impeachment effort has taken place.

So this is what I believe is the most important thing to keep in mind when trying to identify evil:

Be skeptical about what people, especially politicians, say and why they say it. Don’t be fooled into thinking that a politician’s professed ideology necessarily has much to do with his/her true motivations. I’m not saying that they’re all liars. I’m just saying that we need to keep an open, skeptical mind on the subject. So instead of taking their rhetoric at face value, weigh their actions more than their rhetoric. (For example, if we invaded Iraq to bring democracy to them, why did we kill over a million of their civilians, and why don’t we leave when they want us to leave?)

Don’t for a minute believe that the possession of wealth or success in life makes it less likely that a person is a psychopath. Wealthy successful psychopaths are far more dangerous than the ones who end up in jail. And the most dangerous of all are national leaders.

And for God sake, don’t EVER think that just because the only people who are being abused, tortured, and killed by your government are of some other race, ethnic group, or religion – Muslim, for example – that that means that they (your government) aren’t evil and aren’t likely to turn on you next.

[Cerridwen]

1. This time I'll "R" first then read.

Last time I didn't get to "R".

:cry:

:hi:

[Larry Ogg]

34. Hi Cerridwen, I know have been faithfully standing watch over the first article Tfc posted.

And couldn’t wait for this one to show up, my take is that you disserved to be the first Rec, and two minutes after was originally posted, wow…

You didn’t say on the last thread, and I’m curious as to whether or not you have read Ponerology yet?

Again, thanks for keeping such a tight vigil… :toast:
Larry

[Cerridwen]

62. Hey, Larry!

Wow, I left for a few hours and it looks like all kinds of entertaining and amazing things happened. :D

I made the first recommend in 2 minutes?! Eeks. I need a life. Naw, strike that; of course I have a life which is why I had to leave for some time. Of course, see above, when I left the "fun" really began. *snort*

Anyway, in answer to your question; no, I have not yet read it. I read the excerpts at the website and all of the links TFC posted in his original OP (original original post, hee hee). I have a couple of weeks before I can spend time reading (and right now I'm participating here rather than reading) due to job demands; which are obviously on "hold" at this moment. :D Since several people have noted Lobaczewski's work is extremely dense, I'll have to make sure to set aside time to devote to reading for comprehension and learning rather than reading for entertainment; I hope that makes sense. Another poster, I forget who at this moment, had a suggested reading list to get up to speed enough to be able to understand "Ponerology." I may mix those in as I go along which means even more time for reading. Though, this idea isn't completely foreign to me.

From what I've read to this point, Lobaczewski appears to expand on a phenomenon I've noticed over the years. I thought, as I was living it, that it was more a "localized" form of mental illness or, you should pardon the expression, spiritual disease. The reason for the spiritual angle is because the people whom I've met who fit the profiles, all appear to be lacking in...something. It's hard to put a name to it. It's kind of like talking or interacting with a picture on a wall; you can see it, touch it, admire or dislike it, but there's no "human spark" there; no...depth. Then when it opens it's mouth to speak, you're so amazed a picture is talking that you lose all sense of balance and/or reality. When the words the talking picture begin to form into sentences, you realize that what they're saying has no relation to the context in which you were conversing. For example, if I say "My dog just died" and the person you're speaking with says, "Oh, you must be so proud. I hear that politicians make good food for thought." A very "Alice in Wonderland" experience; no drugs required. It's like a string of words put together from a dictionary as being "read" by someone with no concept of spoken language. Bizarre is an understatement.

Anyway, I'm back for a while and thought I'd check in and see what happened while I was gone. Looks like I have a lot of catch-up to do.

Since it's still early-ish, I brought :donut: instead of :toast:

:hi:

[BeHereNow]

2. I carry this book in my purse- can't stop reading it! K&R!!!

Thanks for keeping it on the radar.
BHN

[Larry Ogg]

35. Hi BeHereNow , If you are in the process of reading it for the firs time,

I want to tell you that when you get to chapter five you better hold on, for me it was like being on a rollercoaster ride, because that’s when Lobaczewski starts putting all the pieces together, and your mind rearranges itself, and the world will never ever look the same again, because you will know what evil is. No ands if’s or buts about it, and there’s nothing mythical too it, because, it’s all science and in plain view…
Larry

[napoleon_in_rags]

3. Incredible again. K&R

I'm only half through and I have to go to work, but the questions are fantastic. I will return to this thread. Thanks for posting!

[Time for change]

42. Thank you -- Hope you enjoy the rest of the book

It contains a great deal of very important information, but it's difficult to read IMO.

[ajasper]

61. I agree

Time for change, you really have a great way of explaining this complex material in down to earth, understandable and applicable terms:

"In summary: An ideology is used as a mask to hide the true, psychopathic motives of the psychopaths, serving simultaneously to inspire some of the more honest (normal) members of the group. But the psychopaths transform the ideology beyond recognition, to serve their own sick needs, while continuing to use the ideology’s original name so as to hide their true motives. When the true adherents of the ideology realize what’s really going on, they may rebel, and if they do they probably will be shoved aside or much worse."

Perfect.

So, again - thanks for continuing to put this material out there in a way that people can grasp - it is SO important - and thanks to DU for ignoring the trolls that this material has attracted; trolls who keep repeating the same nonsense over and over and over and over - that's 'pathological persistence', right? ;)

-Jazz

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. Posts like this are why I come to DU

K&R

[BeHereNow]

6. Posts like this are too far and few on DU these days....

Can I get a witness?
BHN

[Viva_La_Revolution]

9. Amen! nt

[Cerridwen]

11. Amen! And thanks for the ear worm.

:D

[Greyhound]

26. Sing it...

:kick: & R

[Triana]

14. I posted that article before in the past and it sunk like a rock...

...must have been the timing. (the political ponerology one)

Oh - PeeEss: I don't really care about that though - the important thing is that it's OUT there and people see it. Maybe it ought to be posted weekly. After reading what I've read about pathologicals and psychopaths (and knowing a few in my personal life) - I think it should.

[Time for change]

66. Thank you viva

That's always good to hear.

[Echo In Light]

5. Your Political Ponerology thread, and this one, take crucial aim at long overdue analysis...

...of how and why we're at this particular point along the collective path.

Naturally there is a great deal of resistance to such examination: the prevailing ideological systems have many built in defense mechanisms to ward off the questions, or downplay and trivialize what they reveal. One wouldn't even entertain this type of questioning if one wishes to be "$uccessful," as humane concern and conscience aren't conducive to the profits over people mode, with its exploitative machinations and exalted superficiality. Let's hope this one doesn't get dungeoned like the last...

[BeHereNow]

7. NFW!!! The last one was sent to the dungeon?

That is a dreadful sorry in my book.
BHN

[Cerridwen]

10. 5 days, 140-something replies, 30 recommends and almost 3000 views

later it was thrown into the basement September 11 forum.

There must be something of worth to this idea as we've had a couple of disruptors visitors from other sites lobbing nothing but personal attacks against a woman who edited the book (under the watchful and strict eye of the author) but about whom we weren't discussing.

Rather than discuss the topic at hand, they posted attacks. Interesting, no?

[BeHereNow]

13. Interesting? Predictable is more like it.

Sadly... "the gate keepers of the so called left" and all.
Charles Shaw.

If you haven't read it, you simply must.

BHN

[Cerridwen]

15. Consider it added to my list.

I'll move it toward the top. :D

I'd better eat more carrots. I've got a "ton" of reading to do just from these 2 threads. I must take care of my eyes.

:hi:

Eek! Where are my manners? Thank you for the book recommendation.

[Time for change]

22. You may have missed some of the fireworks

A couple of new posters entered the thread and started passing around malicious and wierd accusations/rumors. It got very very nasty. I'm sure that was why it was transferred.

If they try that again I'll send an alert to the mods and ask that their posts be deleted.

Hope you enjoy the rest of the book.

[Time for change]

32. "Humane concern and conscience"

Yes, that may not be conducive to certain types of "$uccess", but it is conducive to other types, such as having meaningful personal relationships.

When the disrupters appeared on the other thread they were maligning someone who was merely a subject of a post. If they do it again they would be maligning a fellow DUer, which is against DU rules. If they try that, I will request that their posts be deleted.

[Larry Ogg]

41. Lobaczewski explains this in great detail, the psychopaths have no ideology of their own.

And that the spellbinder is used to take over the ideologies of normal people, at which time they turn something good into something bad, by convincing believers of said ideology that another group of normal people is out to destroy them and their ideology, and normal people will fight and die for their ideologies. Conceder for a momen; “They hate us for our freedom”, and “if your not with us your with the terrorist”, and liberals hate Democracy because they are anti war. These are just a few of the fraises that are used to turn peace loving normal people of conscience into the destructive tools of the psychopath. And Lobaczewski explains a technique used that is called Reversive Blockade as follows.

Emphatically insisting upon something which is the opposite of the truth blocks the average person’s mind from perceiving the truth. In accordance with the dictates of healthy common sense, he starts searching for meaning in the “golden mean” between the truth and its opposite, winding up with some satisfactory counterfeit.

This is one such technique that is used by the spellbinder, consider Bushes famous one liner as he stood on the ruins of the World Trade Center and proclaimed, “They hate us for our freedom.” When in fact, nothing is farther from the truth, and anyone who looks for and finds out the truth, will discover that the worst enemy of American foreign policy is freedom and Democracy. But it takes the spellbinders like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Bill O’Reilly and a score of other such venal ilk with in the M$M to convince people of anything but the truth. Although most intelligent people know that most of what these people say is infract a total lie, but they will still conform to the precepts of the Reversive Blockade technique, thus excepting a watered down or subjective version of the truth which is within the golden mean…
Larry

[Triana]

8. psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists are also prevalent...

...in abusive relationships. I've read Martha Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door", Robert Hare's "Without Conscience" and others in an effort to be informed about these predators.

ANYONE who thinks most psychopaths/sociopaths/pathologicals are in prisons, or are axe murderers, etc. is SADLY misinformed and wide open to being a target of one of them either personally, professionally, or otherwise - (gov't and corporations are more and more predatory these days and most often run by narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths - BECAUSE those pathological personalities are so GOOD at being excellent predators).

MOST of them are NOT locked up. They are "white-collar" criminals (think George Bush and Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and many CxOs of major corporations - heck, maybe even YOUR neighbor) - AND they are severely abusive (verbally, emotionally, sexually, financially, psychologically) in personal relationships, as well as in professional or the public sphere.

They are very astute LIARS and CON artists and can even fool highly trained psychologists and counselors into thinking they are "normal" when they are far, far from it.

By the time they are finished with their prey - the prey looks disheveled and crazed while the psychopath sits there looking quite calm and collected.

It's rather confusing, that. And it's why the VICTIMS often get blamed for the evil deeds of the psychopath/sociopath. LOOKS are deceiving.

You've been warned.

Read up, folks. Ignorance is NOT bliss where these creatures are concerned.

The really bad news: THEY BREED, too.

[PinkyisBlue]

23. I have read that abuse and torture of animals is often an early sign of psychopathic tendencies.

Young George, with his enjoyment of blowing up frogs, should have been diagnosed years and years ago. He has moved on from declaring war on innocent creatures to declaring war on innocent people.

[Huron]

25. Pyschopaths

Hi Triana,

You have listed a great set of books that can be used as a prep before reading Ponerology. In Sheep's Clothing is good to read even before Stout. Each of these books gives you more strategies for dealing with them. I'm glad TFC has managed to keep this topic going. You've also done a great job of boiling down Dr. L.'s concepts. Thanks for making them so accessible.

This information is critical to the survival of normal people. What transpired on the other thread is sad, but as Cerridwen said, predictable. Let's not let the 'bas***ds grind us down"!

Re the genetics Dr. L makes some interesting speculations on the transmission of the tendencies to essential psychopathy. Good reading there if you're into that part of the puzzle. It's just not the whole story.

[Triana]

38. 'Snakes in Suits' is also a good book about how psychopaths work at work...

..in professional/managerial/work settings - and how/why they typically end up as CxOs of corps and heads of state/countries - because of their superb PREDATORY skills.

[Time for change]

28. I believe that too many people just don't take white collar criminals seriously enough

They get the best lawyers, and juries and judges are much more likely to cut them a break for serious crimes than the are for the working class and the poor.

Maybe someday we'll outgrow that tendency.

Thanks for the book list.

[Cerridwen]

12. Something that caught my attention in the other thread.

One of the first responses about how to deal with these people was along the lines of "so, what do you think we should do? kill them?" Of course the poster was making a point about the dangers of labeling people as dangerous or evil based on what has happened in the more pathological societies in recent modern times.

Isn't that indicative of the internalized pathology with which we've all been infected? We have so few options in our repertoire of responses to danger that one of our first thoughts is to kill. Another response was "round 'em up" which is another, IMO, pathological response.

We're going to have to diligently think outside our diseased box to come up with sane, humane, and non-punitive ways to deal with the evil among us.

[Time for change]

18. This is a very important issue, and I've thought a lot about it lately

Lobaczewski's idea on how to handle this (though he does not propose a definitive solution) is to have some sort of testing program for people before being allowed into positions where they could pose a great danger to other people.

Of course, such a program could be subject to abuse, especially if used in politics. On the other hand, we already have menatal health tests for certain jobs in certain localities, and I've not noticed evidence that such programs have been substantially abused.

I would hope that such a program, if instituted, would be based on a person's behavior rather than on psychological test scores. I tend to doubt that we could come up with a psychological test in the foreseeably near future that would accurately identify people who posed a danger without barring a lot of normal people as well.

On the other hand, another way to look at this is that as it is now, white collar criminals, even those who steal huge sums of money, tend to be treated much more leniently than the working class or poor, even those who have done nothing more than be caught with posession of a drug. I would hope that awareness of the danger of white collar criminals would lead to a rethinking of our whole system of justice. I say, let several hundred thousand working class and poor who have committed victimless crimes out of prison, and get tougher with white collar criminals who have ruined the lives of numerous people with their crimes.

But here is the most important point IMO. After thinking about this more, I believe that all it would really take to make a huge dent in the process is to somehow educate society to be much better at identifying psychopaths. The ones that have done monumental damage (Hitler, Stalin, Bush/Cheney) didn't do it alone. They had plenty of help from plenty of people. If society as a whole became much better at recognizing them it's entirely possible, even likely, that no legal measures would have to be used to prevent these people from obtaining great power. Without the help of those whom they manipulate they would be nearly powerless.

[Cerridwen]

19. I agree with your opinion. Education is the *key*.

Psychological testing for jobs bugs the crap out of me. I've never had a good or bad experience as I've only been tested once (that I'm aware of) and it didn't stop me from getting the job, a raise, a bigger better title, etc. But I don't trust the tests to be used correctly nor do I trust their accuracy.

Hire good HR people and screw the tests. Better yet, treat people as people rather than "human resources" and watch a drastic change. But THAT, is a different rant. :D

I think education, putting the information out there as you're doing, and more education would go a long way to keep people on their guard against the psychopaths and all their variations and those of their minions. The trick will be to do it in such a way we don't create paranoia and we aren't infiltrated by the very ones we're teaching about. Whew!

In another post somewhere I said something about "diligently thinking outside our diseased (infected?) box". It'll be a challenge.

[Triana]

36. RE: Testing for psychopathy: fMRI - been done, can be done, should be done

Dr. Robert Hare developed this (I believe) and he also developed tests that can be used in prisons by prison personnel (and are currently used) to determine if an individual is a psychopath.

fMRI shows distinct differences in brain function in psychopaths as opposed to normal people. The other tests are apparently pretty reliable as well as they are currently being used in prison systems, from what I understand in his book.

George Bush should have undergone a complete and thorough psychiatric exam before he could have ever been installed as president. And, so should anyone else, IMO.

I STILL think GWB should undergo these exams - even after he has left office - for education and public knowledge if for no other reason.

[Time for change]

72. That may be so

But I think that I lot of thought would have to go into it in order to avoid harming non-psychopaths.

With regard to George Bush, I think that there was plenty of evidence based on his actions that he was a psychopath, prior to being (s)elected the first time as president. If our news media would have done a good job of reporting what should have been reported I don't think that his vote percentage against both Gore and Kerry would have been in single digits. He is a creation of our corporate news media.

[bbgrunt]

46. I too, eschew psych. tests for many reasons. I think,

however, that a cultural shift in attitudes about white collar crime are right on the mark. Tales of Asian leaders committing suicide when they have dishonored their responsibilities to the country and people, hold a lot of appeal. Gertrude Himmelfarbe suggested that "shaming" might be way of keeping aberrant behavior in check. Unfortunately shaming also creates a strait jacket for creativity and freedom. Given all the collateral damage involved in such techniques, shaming would probably create more problems than it would solve.

We can, however, try to change the criminal code to make white collar crime a much more egregious offense. In order for that to happen, the public needs to be able to feel and express much more outrage at such activities than has been the case. You'd think that Enron etc. would have created the climate for that expression, but the marginalization of victims and the interests of the corporate media make it difficult to detect.

Unfortunatly, the growing disparity in incomes and the continually increasing payoffs for sociopathic activities only serves to increase the incentives for this kind of behavior. People have been screaming about CEO pay since the 90's but it has had no visible impact as yet. Maybe this is where it has to start. Total outrage at golden parachutes and stock options and bonuses and other compensation so out of line with basic concepts of productivity. It has to become visceral to have any effect. People have to stop admiring the rich and begin openly questioning how they are screwing everyone else to gain their wealth.

[Time for change]

48. Absolutely -- We need a cultural shift in this country

Working in favor of that cultural shift is truth and common sense.

Working against it is our corporate news media and the ostrich syndrome.

[conscious evolution]

16. You need to read this

I would be interested to hear your comments.
http://ninecommentaries.com/

[Cerridwen]

17. From the OP...

(I hope Time for change doesn't mind me butting in)

This was not a classless society, nor was it stateless, nor was it based on common ownership of the means of production. Yet the myth of a Communist state prevailed in the USSR until it broke up in 1991.

The lessons we should learn from the role of ideologies in the ponerogenic process

First, it should teach us that we should never uncritically accept that an individual’s or a group’s purpose is what they say it is, especially when matters as important as war and peace are at stake.

Second, we should not uncritically blame an ideology for the fact that a group uses it for their own nefarious ends. <snip>

And Communism should not be blamed for the Communist rulers who tyrannized and impoverished the nations that they led – in the name of Communism.

In summary: An ideology is used as a mask to hide the true, psychopathic motives of the psychopaths, serving simultaneously to inspire some of the more honest (normal) members of the group. But the psychopaths transform the ideology beyond recognition, to serve their own sick needs, while continuing to use the ideology’s original name so as to hide their true motives. When the true adherents of the ideology realize what’s really going on, they may rebel, and if they do they probably will be shoved aside or much worse.

And finally: Whether or not pure Communism is capable of providing a viable and productive economic system is a question I can’t answer and is not highly relevant to this discussion.

I added emphasis and posted the pertinent parts in a particular order to make it more clear to you that this is not about advocating for one economic/social/political theory but for how each and every economic/social/political theory can be used to subvert humankind into some pathological state.

Again, I hope TFC doesn't mind if I used his words in an effort to elucidate what I understood from his post.

[Time for change]

20. Great rebuttal -- Thanks for helping me out

:thumbsup:

[Cerridwen]

21. Glad to help.

If you get the same response as the other thread, it's gonna take all of us on board to take 'em on. LOL

Oh, and since I haven't explicitly said so - Great posts! - this and the other one!

I think I'm making the people nuts in the other forum because I keep kicking it back to the top. :evilgrin:

[conscious evolution]

37. Did you guys actually read

the Nine Commentaries?
It is a case study on what you are writing about.

[Time for change]

56. Yes, I read them -- maybe we misinterpreted the point you were trying to convey

We took your point to mean that Communism is an inherantly evil ideology. Given the title of the article, "Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party", perhaps it was reasonable for us to think that.

A major point of my OP was that labels can be very misleading, and that what is called "Communism" is often no more than a mask to hide a malicious dictatorship. If that's what you were attempting to illustrate, then I apologize for misinterpreting you, but since you provided no commentary to go with your link, that made it difficult to understand your point.

I think that different interpretations can be imputed to the article. One interpretation is that it is a renouncing of Communism in general. Or, one could interpret it as making the point I made in the OP about misleading labels -- but without any comments to go with your post, I don't know how we would have come to that conclusion.

Am I missing something?

[conscious evolution]

96. You probably were

I was not so clear looking back.

The articles are not so much of an indictment of communism as theyare more along the lines of an indictment of the Chinese communist PARTY.
This is from the commentary:

Today, the CCP has completely degenerated into a political entity struggling to maintain self-interest. It no longer pursues any of the lofty goals of communism. However, the organizational structure of communism remains, and its demand for unconditional conformity has not changed. This party, situating itself above humanity and human nature, removes any organizations or persons deemed detrimental or potentially detrimental to its own power, be it ordinary citizens or high-ranking CCP officials.

These commentaries,to me, document the results of what is happening to a nation-state after a phsycopath and a his followers seized control.

[Time for change]

98. Ok, I see what you meant, and I agree with that

China is indeed a pathocracy IMO.

But I think if you go back and read the article carefully you'll see that the author was also trying to make another point -- which I don't agree with. Commentary # 1 is a comment on Communism in general, and I believe the intended implication is that the ideology itself is inherantly evil, and that all Communist regimes turn out the same. I have not studied the full spectrum of Communist nations and how they have fared, but they certainly are not all the same, and some are a lot better than others.

Anyhow, without accompanying comments in your post, Cerridwen and I jumped to the conclusion that that was your point, and that's why we commented as we did. I'm Sorry I misunderstood what you were trying to say :)

[Time for change]

49. Please see Cerridwen's excellent comments in response to your post

I have nothing to add to that.

I would be interested in your response to those comments.

[conscious evolution]

52. My only comment

is that it is obvious Cerridwin did not read the Commentaries before making her reply.
I have a feeling she would have replied differently if she had.

[Cerridwen]

63. Apparently my *point* wasn't so "obvious"

My point is I don't want to get into a communism bashing mode. I'd like to stay with generalities so we don't get bogged down in communism good/communism bad discussions since, as I noted in my reply to you, this "is not about advocating for one economic/social/political theory but for how each and every economic/social/political theory can be used to subvert humankind into some pathological state."

I'd also like to keep it "local" so that people who read here who are from the US, can see the symptoms around them rather than divert their attention "over there" which can be used to support a form of denial, i.e., oh, it's happening to those people so I don't have to worry until it happens to me. Very US-centric and selfish of me, I admit. But we appear to be the bullies on the block these days and I think we're going to have to cure the disease here first before we can look to the infection we've spread and how to heal it.

Also, communism has been demonized so horrifically in the US, any discussion about it can be counted on to devolve into a pointless discussion about capitalism versus communism and doesn't add much to this thread, IMO. If we could calmly and objectively discuss individual economic and political theories, it might be worthwhile. Right now, I don't see that happening and I'd like us to get up to speed before we address economic and political philosophies and their relative merit or lack thereof.

And finally, I took TFC at his word that "Whether or not pure Communism is capable of providing a viable and productive economic system is a question I can’t answer and is not highly relevant to this discussion." and that he did mean, not relevant to this discussion.

My apologies to you both, conscious evolution and TFC, if I've mis-read either's intent.

Finally, I'm happy to see the Chinese people are making moves away from their country's pathologic leadership by leaving the CCP. I don't however see a correlation to what we have here in the US as our entire system of systems appear to be wholly foreign to the societal structures in China. That is, whether I'm a political party member or not is rarely cause for concern to the "powers that be." Now, were I to start an effective movement to get large groups of people to sit down and stop producing, we might have a "game."

If I've missed your point, conscious evolution, please enlighten me. Perhaps you see a correlation I don't.

BTW, I did read your link; not sure if that's important or not but I think I should err on the side that says it is important to you. :D

[Time for change]

74. You certainly didn't misread MY intent

[Cerridwen]

75. Whew!

Thank you for saying so. I started to second guess myself then decided, oh well, I'll ask and TFC will tell me. And you did. :D

Your threads have prompted much more good discussion and some wonderful links and new book ideas.

I'm starting to envision study groups or book club meetings to discuss "Ponerology" and all the other great books mentioned in these threads. They would be easy, inexpensive ways to gather together *small* groups of people to study and learn. I stress *small* because the chance to be "infiltrated" is reduced if members are familiar and known to each other. The larger the group, the more likely new people won't receive the vetting needed to maintain group integrity.

In the meantime, more reading for me.

:hi:

[Larry Ogg]

24. Another absolutely incredible and powerful OP,

I would like to go a little more into ideologies because that is what I was working on when I was introduced to Ponerology. I knew that somehow peoples faith in things that were good and beneficial were being taken over by the most unmanageable lies, and these good things that people believed in were becoming the tools that led to unimaginable suffering.

So what does it look like when a disease hijacks - warps and hides within normal peoples ideologies, the Mask of Sanity in which psychopath hides itself from discovery, and normal people of conscience believing in the ideology will unknowingly help to protect the psychopath - all at their own peril.

We are familiar with the concept of wolves in sheep’s clothing or wrapped in a flag while carrying a cross. Let us also consider what the disease sounds like once it has taken over an ideology that normal people hold sacred – as it transposes it’s true character onto it’s victims and those who appose it. Things begin to sound so much different…

Patriotism becomes “They hate us for our freedom. They don’t want to see Democracy succeed. If your not with us, your with the terrorist. Dissenters, war protesters and the liberal left are all unpatriotic,.

For historical example of this phenomenon let us take a look at. http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm">The History of the Swastika.

The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had a positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?

The Oldest Known Symbol
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.
During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:
China - wan
England - fylfot
Germany - Hakenkreuz
Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
India - swastika
Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika.

The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.
Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II. <snip>

This was a great example of how Evil used a symbol of something good that people believed in - as tool to mask its true intent, resulting in the death of millions, all for sake of world domination and power in the hands of the psychopathological minority that took over the Germany.

And now it’s happening again, only this time there using a flag that is red white and blue with thirteen stripes and fifty stars, because this is what it looks like as a result of psychopathological minority taking the over the American ideology of Democracy and turning it into a Pathocracy…

I know some people like movies too, so hears one about Psychopaths Past & Present, it’s short and one of my favorites, hope you enjoy… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne3VU1TvsGE

K&R
Larry

[Time for change]

55. Thank you Larry - I like your ideas on ideology

Especially the point about being called "unpatriotic". Perhaps that should be a red flag. I've never called anyone unpatriotic in my life. It is simply too vague a word to have enough meaning to me that I would ever want to use it in that fashion. Maybe when people use that word, it should be considered a giveaway to the fact that they're using it to manipulate people?

I'll take a look at your movie later, thank you.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. Carl Sagan nailed this over 30 years ago.

"The Dragons Of Eden" by Carl Sagan was about the lizard brain and its preoccupation with primitive survival functions. Published in 1976.

[Echo In Light]

31. Also read One Dimensional Man {1964}, by Herbert Marcuse

Marcuse lends much early insight into the "false happy consciousness" which manifests in the society besieged by imposed corporate wants and needs, with "freedom" being subverted into a soothing form of domination. I would likewise recommend Irrational Man: A Study in Existential Philosophy, by William Barrett.

http://igw.tuwien.ac.at/christian/marcuse/odm.html

"Economic freedom would mean freedom from the economy - from being controlled by economic forces and relationships; freedom from the daily struggle for existence, from earning a living. Political freedom would mean liberation of the individuals from politics over which they have no control. Similarly, intellectual freedom would mean the restoration of individual thought now absorbed by mass communication and indoctrination, abolition of "public opinion" together with its makers."

"...the outcasts and outsiders, the exploited and persecuted of other races and colors, the unemployed and the unemployable...Their opposition hits the system from without, and is therefore not deflected by the system; it is an elementary force which violates the rules of the game and, in doing so, reveals it as a rigged game...The fact that they start refusing to play the game may be the beginning of the end of a period."

"Radical change in consciousness is the beginning, the first step in changing social existence: emergence of the new Subject." ~ H.M.

[Karenina]

29. I feel like I'm back in school...

K&R!!!

[Time for change]

57. Thank you -- Welcome to school Karenina

Hopefully we won't have to go to "time out" this time. :hi:

[Echo In Light]

30. Off to the Dungeon with thee!!!

[Larry Ogg]

33. And then back to GD at 5:15 mountain time

Thank you DU moderators for bringing this back to GD; this may very well be the most important discussion of our time, and there are a lot of people that are working very hard to save the world from what happened in Nazi Germany. And for those who don’t think it can happen hear and now, just don’t know how it happened there and then. Too under stand how it happened in Germany I highly recommend that one reads the following article, it’s quite long but the reader will have an excellent understanding of how it happened, and Ponerology will show the reader why it happened and why it is happening again.

Chaos and Consent: Working Towards the Fuhrer
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/152271-Chaos-and-Cons...

[Echo In Light]

39. Odd..I had posted in Time's other dungeoned thread re this one's disappearance

Good to see it restored, and to its proper forum as well.

[Larry Ogg]

43. Yes Echo, I saw your reply there, and was also in shock.

I couldn’t believe they deleted it and just wanted to cry.
I could only think wow, what’s going on here, lets all give up and bow to the Pathocracy. Can I have my microchip implant now?

And then it showed up again in GD, what a nice surprise; although I don’t know if the Recs is working I’ll be watching that, it seems to be stuck on 24. Never the less it’s good it is back in GD.

And I want to once again thank the mods for putting it back, after all it’s their world too…
Larry

[Cronopio]

40. This confirms what I've seen in people.

Some people interact with others with a basic regard for the others, and their own, shared humanity. Others just play off of people in endless stimulus-response tests, being endlessly stimulus-bound themselves. The latter are more state machine than human.

About the only time the latter group will become emotionally involved in an interaction is when another sentient being consistently does not respond in the expected way to their stimuli. They take it personally and step up the attacks, both individually and in groups. And why shouldn't they take it personally? They are presented with an example of how good life is when one isn't totally stimulus-bound, when one thinks through responses instead of just blindly reacting to the circumstances that are presented.

Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" addresses this partially, but I think political sociopaths have a bigger bag of stimuli tactics than just shock. They have many other tactics that are far more subtle.

This issue of the stimulus-bound nature of sociopaths, and sociopathic groups and societies, goes far beyond politics. In the compulsively competitive hypercapitalist society we're in, the monied interests of the world exert near univeral, cradle-to-the-grave pressure to "not think, just react". In past times, subjugating people was done by brute force, now it's done through psychological programming - organized and scientific stimulus-response training. It's no wonder it shows up in almost every level of life in the world's industrial nations. The entire system has become an institutionalized form of sociopathy, and sociopathy ceases to be just a tactic. It becomes a universal morality, based on unreviewed, reactive, primal impulses.

It must be a depressing, enraging experience for people like GW Bush and Cheney, when they see hostility and resistance to their attempts to mold thinking people into blind responders. That's why they're carefully hidden away and protected by their posse. Isolated from, enraged at, and fearful of their targets.

Major props to the OP for this thread, and a enthusiastic K&R.

[Larry Ogg]

45. You definitely perceive part of what’s going on OmelasExpat

Lobaczewski sais, there is always a minority that can sense certain things such as what you describe, he calls them the intellectuals. History will tell you that the intellectuals sensed something wrong and fled Germany, that sense is called instinct…

Lobaczewski also sais, one of the big signs that society is turning into a Pathocracy is a high degree of pathological egotism and narcissism with in society itself. This is extremely self evident of American society who thinks we are the best country in the world, and Gods gift to humanity, it’s the me generation.

The final stages is what he calls the Hysteriodal Cycle, as is in ‘hysterical’, people becoming very worried; and you don’t have to go very far to see that happening now, it’s even all over DU, people are getting scared… All are symptoms of the pathological disease know as Pathocracy. And it’s called pathological because you are dealing with a living organism, and that organism is the defective brain of deviants which spread their disease to others though language, it’s easy to see, and this is also the job of the M$M’s pretend and tabloid news, which is used to control and cover up the other means which is used, i.e. the violent means…
Larry

[Cronopio]

53. I will definitely take a look at this book.

Thanks to you and the OP for the tip.

[Time for change]

71. Thank you -- This is a very complex subject, I wish I understood it better

If any one book brought home to me how much evil in the world has been purpetrated by our own country over the past few decades, it was Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine".

It's difficult to know when you're being made the victim of propaganda. We just need to keep our eyes and minds open all the time and always recognize the possibility that things aren't as they seem.

[Fulcanelli]

44. Psychopaths

This is all great but Time for Change is remiss for not telling you that the publisher of this book and the person who wrote the preface, Ms. Laura Knight Jadczyk, channeled aliens from Cassiopaea through a ouija board, she exorcised the devil from people in Florida for 20 years and she very likely ripped off $250,000 from innocent people in a Fake House Raffle scam in 2003.

I posted all of this in another discussion forum and Laura Knight Jadczyk responded but refused to answer the charges I had made.

The psychopath is very clever and can manipulate us in many variegated ways.

Wouldn't a very deep psychopath attempt to hide their psychopathy by attacking their enemies as psychopaths? In some ways this would be the ultimate trick of the psychopath. Would it not?

[Time for change]

47. You should read the DU rules

Maligning other DU members are against DU rules.

In any event, whatever you think of Laura Knight Jadczyk is irrelevant to the contents of this post. If you disagree with the contents of this post, then please specify you disagreements, but don't malign other DU members.

[Larry Ogg]

54. Hi Dr. Dale I’ve been holding down the fort for ya,

:hi: :hi:

hope I didn’t upset anyone besides the vermin on their dump fest mission.

Is it true, Fulcanelli was actually spreading vile disinformation by emailing people? Woo, now that’s what you call (PODDY) persistent obsession to detail disorder yoda, I better go check my messages.

Nope, nothing there, so :wtf: I guess that I am just not important enough! Oh well I’ll guess I will just have to get over it…
Larry

Edited too say: Oh and by the way, Lobaczewski said, “psychopaths don’t like rules”, that’s probable why Fulcanelli didn’t read them

[Time for change]

76. Wel...

I've alerted the mods. I don't think they should be able to get away with maligning a fellow DU member, which is clearly against the rules. Laura may be new, but she has posted some very long and informative posts.

BTW, they posted my last post over on SOTT:
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/152452-Political-Ponerology-A-Science-of-

[Cerridwen]

77. Hey, you're published!

Time for change, Time for change, Time for change, Time for change, Time for change,

Okay, I'll quit acting like a goofy cheerleader. hee hee

They gave a nice treatment to your original OP. Congratulations!

:toast:

[Time for change]

78. Thank you cerridwen

:toast:

[Larry Ogg]

91. I said you were the best Dr. Dale

I mean like, even Fulcanelli criticizes you for not espousing his views. Ya gotta be doing something right. Yes?

And by the way, ‘this article’ is also on ‘sott’ best of the web page.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/152974-The-Role-of-Ideology-in-the-Development-of-Evil-Regimes-Pathocracies-

Your giving a lot of people hope. And I can truly say, I’m proud to be one of them…
Larry :toast:

[Time for change]

97. Thank you very much Larry

:toast:

[Larry Ogg]

50. Why should anybody answer the charges of some brain damaged psycho

who’s only purpose in life is defined by a psychotic obsession and dedication to slander, hurting other people, and interrupting intelligent conversation. All of which describes your actions and behavior on the last thread. Anyhow what makes you think that Time for change or anyone else should disseminate you vile opinions, I’m mean really, it’s not as if he or anyone else around here are not capable of researching and discovering facts on their own, and neither do most of the people around here give the hint of having just crawled out from under some rock. Which is why I think I would be speaking for many of them if I was to say, “Why don’t you do us all a favor and do just that?

[Fulcanelli]

59. Alex Constantine another cointelpro victim?

Alex Constantine is the great anti-fascist researcher and writer who has been exposing Nazi's and psychopaths for a lot longer than Laura Knight Jadczk. How does Laura pay back Mr. Constantine? With a thank you? No. She calls him a (surprise) "cointelpro agent". Again she does this without a shred of evidence.

Mr. Constantine has duly noted that Laura Knight Jadczyk is a rabid anti-semite. She simply hates Jews. Anyone who has been following her site for all of the years that I have get mighty tired of her Jew baiting.

Here is what Alex Constantine has to say:

http://alexconstantine.blogspot.com/2006/10/laura-knight-jadczyk-creature-from.html


ALEX CONSTANTINE'S ANTI-FASCIST RESEARCH BIN

MONDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2006
LAURA KNIGHT-JADCZYK, Creature from the Cyber-Sphere's Occult Black Lagoon


Jew-Baiting Occult Channeler LAURA KNIGHT-JADCZYK, a Throwback to Thule and the Golden Dawn

There is a "channeler" on the Internet at the *Signs of the Times* site who is claiming that Alex Constantine is "co-opting" the 9/11 Truth Movement:

http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/07/alex-jones-and-911-scholars-parable-of.html

"After a few days of exchanges, providing referenced material for discussion, and being flamed by such luminaries as ... Alex Constantine, I realized that it is really, really true: the 911 Movement is co-opted to the very core, and probably always has been."

The notion that I am co-opting the 9/11 Truth Movement - at "the very core" yet - comes as a surprise to me. I've never given a talk on 9/11, written a book on the topic, or even attended a conference. Yet I am "co-opting the movement." Perhaps it is her deepest fears speaking ... And, hey, I was here first. The 9/11 Movement has co-opted ME! One flank of this grassroots movement is made up of of "false-flag" thespians who claim that Israel was behind the destruction in Manhattan. LAURA KNIGHT-JADCZYK is a leading proponent of this viewpoint. 

LAURA KNIGHT-JADCZYK claims to be a writer, also a hypnotherapist. 

She is obsessed with Jews and writes about them constantly. 

This intelligent, sensitive author and scientist claims that "Jews control the media." 

Perhaps her antagonism toward me stems from the fact that I'm an anti-Nazi ... and I write about cults ... As it happens, the source of these startling revelations is a "Cassiopaean" ... as in Thule-variety occult CHANNELER. 

She talks to the dead. And predicts the pending end of the world. Reeks of cult mind control, I know, but she claims in tears that anyone who objects to her occult, racist MOONSHINE is a "COINTELPRO agent." 



[EOTE]

60. Who the hell is Alex Constantine?

Another of your ilk who gets off on spreading this ridiculous crap? If you have ANYTHING of substance to say, go for it. Otherwise, please stop spreading this awful filth. If there was ever anyone I'd accuse of being counter-intel, it would be you. Why you've chosen this particular vendetta is beyond me.

[Larry Ogg]

64. I don’t know EOTE , but it’s beginning to sound like nobody’s home

in Fulcanelli’s head… :shrug: And I think we’ve just been talking to the answering machine parroting the same old crap over and over and over…

Ya gotta admit though…… ah shit, I wont even go there, I think it’s best not to feed the sharks, it just seems to encourage them, ya know what I mean…
Larry

[EOTE]

65. I suppose so.

These wicked drive-by assaults associated with these two threads really intrigues me. Normally when I hear of people talking about how others are out to destroy their lives, I think that person is most likely paranoid, maybe even schizophrenic. However, the bulk of things I've read about Laura Knight, as well as these strange attacks on DU, lead me to believe that she may be paranoid, but she has good reason to be because there are people definitely out to get her. I wonder how it was that Fulcanelli even found that original thread when he joined the DU 5 days ago. Was he scouring the internet, looking for any material that might have placed Laura Knight in a positive light? Was that thread all the motivation he needed to create an account on DU and do his damnedest to malign her name, or perhaps even sentence to the dungeon an important thread that espouses her work?

[Laurel700]

95. The Mystic vs. Hitler and the Mystic vs. Bush

See my post on the other thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=200546&mesg_id=200944

[ajasper]

88. taking words out of my mouth

Couldn't have said it better myself. As a long time DU reader and very newbie poster, just wanted to mention how nice it is to see you guys stand up (and ignore) these rants from these people who are clearly only here because of Jadzcyk (who, by the way, has written some really fascinating stuff in the other thread on ponerology) . As I explained on the other thread discussing Ponerology, (I read the book about six months ago, since my brother sent it to me) - I was really enjoying the discussion and in comes the goon squad. People like that (pathological?) REALLY do not want regular people discussing this stuff - they seem to be terrified by it so they keep doing anything to distract or defame or just, well, just be obnoxious.

So - really appreciate the intelligence and level heads - and constant standing guard - to keep the discussion on topic - and this topic is fascinating.

It took me a while to read this book - it is not light reading - but I honestly can say that it seems like the key to what we are currently witnessing in our country - I mean, it's all there, down to almost eery details. Anyway, I'm not much for posting, so just wanted to add my support on this thread as well.

Thanks - it really does matter - because the more regular people who understand what we're up against, the better chance we have of stopping it.

-Jazz

[Larry Ogg]

93. Thank you jazz, I’m glad you decided join in and share the hope,

these past several days have been especially exhilarating and a great learning experience for all; it’s also been great to be a part of it, and meeting good people like you makes it all so much more better. I’m sure a lot of us will be remembering this for a long time to come…

Be sure to keep a close watch, as Time for change’s next article on this subject, I’m sure, will be as equally exciting…
Larry
:toast:

[Time for change]

100. Thank you for your input jazz

The book was indeed not light reading, but it did shed a lot of insight on what's going on with our country today.

[Laurel700]

94. It never penetrates

One of the chief clues that a deviant is a deviant is that they continuously and repeatedly deny the rights of others. That's the "legendary persistence" of the pathological. Because, at some level, they know they are "different," the anxiousness to be seen as normal converts into the hyperactive energy. We call it the "Energizer Bunny Effect."

The is unfamiliar with the primary facts or data of what might be called personal values and is altogether incapable of understanding such matters. It is impossible for him to take even a slight interest in the tragedy or joy or the striving of humanity as presented in serious literature or art. He is also indifferent to all these matters in life itself. Beauty and ugliness, except in a very superficial sense, goodness, evil, love, horror, and humour have no actual meaning, no power to move him. He is, furthermore, lacking in the ability to see that others are moved. It is as though he were colour-blind, despite his sharp intelligence, to this aspect of human existence. It cannot be explained to him because there is nothing in his orbit of awareness that can bridge the gap with comparison. He can repeat the words and say glibly that he understands, and there is no way for him to realize that he does not understand.

[Cronopio]

51. Why would a psychopath encourage discussion on how to identify psychopathy in people?

Seems like that would come with a big risk for them - the risk of being identified with the symptoms they're discussing.

Case in point: sociopaths often barter in hearsay, appealing to the blind trust of anonymous people to attack other people to whom they have, at best, only a cursory knowledge of and an nth-hand connection to.

[EOTE]

58. You've said many of the same things in a previous thread.

And MANY of the things you've claimed have been proven to be very false. Do you have an agenda here? Do you offer anything in terms of hard proof or simply innuendo intended to malign an innocent person? Would you please tell why you are so intent on destroying this woman?

[hkoehli]

73. deflection is the intent

I made a post about this on the other PP thread, which I'll include here and expand upon. The essential aspect of psychopathy is their mask of sanity. At the most basic level they survive by masking their true nature, by deflecting their "otherness". As Lobaczewski wrote in an email to Ms. Knight-Jadczyk (quoted in the previous discussion),

"Their furies are to be understand as the symptomatical responses. For them
you are the worst enemy. You are hurting them very painfully. For a
psychopath, revealing his real condition, tearing down his Cleckley-mask,
brings the end of his self-admiration. You are threating them with destroying
of their secret world, and bring to null their dreams of ruling and
introducing their best social system possible for their aims."

As such, they quickly learn various techniques of deflection in order to avoid exposure of their true nature. Some are obvious while others are are not so easy to recognize. Some have already been pointed out. For example, deflection. Like a magician gathering the attention of his audience to an object of his choosing and away from the act which would expose his technique, these types depend upon their ability to deflect attention away from their exposure and onto a secondary source. One example of this is the technique of "scapegoating". In this case, as has been pointed out, they are attempting to "kill the messenger". By planting a seed of doubt in the minds of readers as to the character of the messenger, they hope to associate that doubt with the material itself. Sadly, this technique often works on less critical readers.

There are other techniques which Lobaczewski identifies, all of which can be used in service of deflection. For example, the "reversive blockade" which is known to Westerners as the less technical terms "gas-lighting" or "mind-screwing". This is very rarely used by non-pathological individuals, and it consists of telling a deliberate lie repeatedly and with such conviction that normal people come to question their own grip on reality. I'm sure you can see examples of this in posts on this thread!

This manipulation of associations is common. It is the root of what Lobaczewski calls "paramoralisms". These are attempts to associate what are really arbitrary rules with a moral imperative by conditioning and the false sense of authority that these types project. When Lobaczewski talks about "some degree of suggestion", he is talking about their tendency to write sentences in which this "moral imperative" is merely suggested. It is subliminal. For example, a pathological type might ask "How can anyone believe the words of someone who channels aliens??" The implication, of course, is that one cannot trust such a person. But the question is founded on at least two false premises. First of all, is it true that such a person channels aliens? This is merely assumed to be true. So right away the reader is thinking, "Well, this person channels aliens (whatever that means), and it's obvious that that's a bad thing!" If they think such a thought, it is only because that is what the questioner desired. The second false premise is that it even matters in the first place! So in addition to the suggestion that the embedded claim is true, is the suggestion that it has significance to the validity of the message. But this is the technique used by all secret services of pathocracies. "Is it not true that on this date, in a letter to your friend, you denounced Stalin?"

It would be humourous to see them use the same old tricks if they weren't so effective. That is why education is a must.

[Larry Ogg]

80. Hi hkoehli and welcome to DU.

:hi:

The way I tried to understand ‘Reversive Blockade ‘ was to think of it as ‘reveres reality’ but yes I can see what you mean also with "mind-screwing" although I have never heard the term “gas-lighting”. Typical terms I was most familiar with were “screwing with my mind and blowing smoke”, so is this the same as ‘Reversive Blockade’? If so, thank you for the association. If not I’m open to correction.

hkoehli said: “ this is the technique used by all secret services of pathocracies.”
That’s funny, I actually felt like Fulcanelli’s was trying to interrogate us and implant his message, it was so obvious. If you read my part of the conversation I wrote “it’s beginning to sound like nobody’s home in Fulcanelli’s head… And I think we’ve just been talking to the answering machine parroting the same old crap over and over and over…

Any how have fun and feel free to jump in and answer any questions, as all help we can get is appreciated…
Larry

[hkoehli]

81. Gas-lighting and reversive blockade

Hi Larry. Thanks for the welcome! "Reverse reality" is a good way of thinking of it. This technique effectively "blockades" the truth by giving the reverse of truth. The term gas-lighting has its source in the 1944 movie Gaslight. From wikipedia:

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse. It uses persistent denials of fact which, as they build up over time, make the victim progressively anxious, confused, and less able to trust his or her own memory and perception. A variation of gaslighting, used as a form of harassment, is to subtly alter aspects of a victim's environment, thereby upsetting his or her peace of mind, sense of security, etc.

The term was coined from the 1940 film Gaslight and its 1944 remake in which changes in gas light levels are experienced several times by the main character. The classic example in the film is the character Gregory using the gas lamps in the attic, causing the rest of the lamps in the house to dim slightly; when Paula comments on the lights' dimming, she is told she is imagining things. Paula believes herself alone in the house when the dimming occurs, unaware that Gregory has entered the attic from the house next door, and is searching for jewels he believes to be hidden there. The sinister interpretation of the change in light levels is part of a larger pattern of deception to which the character Paula is subjected.

This technique is also supposed to have been used by the Manson Family during their "creepy crawler" burglaries during which nothing was stolen, but furniture in the house was rearranged.

The example in the movie is an interpersonal example, but this kind of thought-terror is equally applicable to the "big lies" that pathocracies tell their citizens. This is the root of psychological warfare and black propaganda. On the political scene, the reversive blockade is well-used to deflect guilt, especially of war crimes. For example, the PR desk of the IDF has perfected the art. It is the "big lie". Normal people, feeling guilty for lying, cannot really comprehend the nature of those who lie their entire lives, and tend to believe what is told to them, or at least to find the "golden mean" between the truth and the lie (e.g. "There must be some kind of misunderstanding" or "There are two sides to every story"). We operate daily under the assumption that we're telling the truth to each other. But this is shamelessly exploited by governments and their propaganda arms.

We are lucky on this board, because the psychopaths are outnumbered. But imagine being in a pathocracy like that described by Lobaczewski, where EVERY position of authority is occupied by an essential psychopath. Interrogations under such situations have a deadening effect on the mind, as Lobaczewski himself experienced. We lose our grip on reality.

[BeHereNow]

83. WOW- helluva a post there, Newbie! WELCOME TO DU~!

I, and I would be certain other DUers, are looking forward to hearing
more from you!

Welcome!

BHN:toast: :hi: :yourock: :applause: :applause: :applause: :thumbsup:

[EOTE]

86. Very insightful.

And you are correct, I'm seeing many examples of people using deflection in order to denounce this message on this very thread. I'm actually very surprised to see how vehement some of these opponents are. Oddly enough, I'm reminded of the fillibuster scene in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" where Mr. Smith's home town paper prints all sorts of defamatory headlines about him under the command of the evil media mogul. Then as now, it was all about killing the messenger. Why listen to the message at all when the messenger is being torn to pieces?

Once again, you've provided a lot of insight about some of the opposition I've witnessed on these threads. I have to admit I was fairly curious about a lot of it. If you haven't already, I'd strongly suggest you check out TfC's prior post on Ponerology that he references at the beginning of his OP, it's extremely informative as well. Welcome to DU, I look forward to your future posts.

[BeHereNow]

84. Laura Knight-Jadczyk is NOT what this thread is about.

I personally don't care a whit about her.
The discussion is on the author's work.
Interesting... how you attempt to shift the focus.
Where have I seen that before?

:evilgrin: Welcome to DU.
BHN

[Cerridwen]

85. Hi BHN.

Just ignore that one. It appears to feed on any attention, no attention, whatever. Words are wasted on it.

:hi:

[BeHereNow]

87. Do the PTB have worker bees trolling the net for discussions of this book or what?

You must admit the deflection tactic timing is interesting.
BHN:hi:

[Cerridwen]

89. Useful idiots?

Or just idiots?

:evilgrin:

[BeHereNow]

90. I believe the word we are looking for is...

Collaborators with the "gate keepers of the so called left," as written of
by Charles Shaw.
BHN

[Cerridwen]

92. Yep.

I added that to my ever growing list of books I need to read when I saw you mention it before.

Have you read Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States"? He too, mentions gatekeepers.

Probably a good read to see the strategies in action.

[Cerridwen]

67. Interesting poll that showed up yesterday morning that seems to dovetail

nicely into some of what we're discussing here. I hope the OP of that poll doesn't mind if I borrow their thread as an example over here. :hi:

NNN0LHI put up a poll: Does it unnerve you that someone who is responsible for so much death & suffering appears so normal? The responses were interesting as most posters did not know to whom NNN0LHI was referring because, as one poster noted "There's not a normal one in the bunch." The poll did not do well. Think about that. A poll on a political message board about the politics of the current (mis)administration receives barely a response and the few responses it did receive were trying to pinpoint the "person" to whom the OP made reference.

We've become so numbed by the constant barrage of pathology and its "people" and actions that not one poster in that thread thought to even question the "appearance of normalcy" of someone "responsible for so much death & suffering". I'm not explaining this well. Hopefully someone will make some sense of this. I struck me odd that so few responded and each one just accepted as fact that we have so many people "responsible for so much death & suffering" in our country right now that they couldn't immediately narrow it down to one.

Our collective pathology has become "normal" and our "leaders'" pathology has become "normal" and we're so numb we're accepting that "normalcy" as just another "fact" of our daily, shared existence.

Geez, I hope my caffeine kicks in soon. I hope this post made some sense.

[Larry Ogg]

69. So what was you doing looking at other threads, I thought you were standing guard,

over the other Ponerology thread… LOL Just kidding.

That was interesting, thanks for pointing it out.
I wonder how it would of done with an answer for all of the above…

[Cerridwen]

70. I thought it was your turn! Hey, who goofed up the scheduling around here?!

Geez, a girl can't even get a little R & R around here.

:rofl:

I think "all of the above" would have received more responses than the poll has so far. Sad, sad situation.

One of things I'm trying to get my brain to wrap around is how to present this information in such a way that we recognize the behaviors in our workplace and communities rather than just look at our "leaders" and their behavior. We're starting to separate ourselves based on perceived (and real) distance rather than watching and exposing the symptoms of pathology closer to home. Not to make everyone paranoid; but to make it "second nature" to recognize the symptoms, expose them, then immunize ourselves and our friends and family from them. Developing a 21st century "fight or flight" response is what I think I'm getting at.

I think most of us can see the pathology from a distance, but IMO, we need to develop some mental acuity to detect it in our everyday interactions; to protect ourselves from infection and to cure ourselves of our own symptoms of pathology.

[Larry Ogg]

79. Lobaczewski talks about how people can sense something different in such individuals,

but often dismiss it as just being a little eccentric or odd. They are also the panicle of confidence and objects of great admiration but remember with the psychopath you are actually seeing a Mask of Sanity, they can seem perfectly normal to people who don’t know them, but behind your back or when they get in with their groups of like minded acquaints and take of their mask it would be shocking.

I don’t know if you have read the book but you can download a free copy of the http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF">“The Mask of Sanity”, it gives a great deal of case studies, something that is purposefully left out of ponerology. Lobaczewski refers to it on occasion, and it’s author Hervey Cleckley, M.D. is also the one who came up with the fraise “Mask of Sanity” and he is also is the one who first recognized and named “the essential psychopath”.

One of the case studies is kind of funny I thought. It was about this guy that got a job as salesman who was an immediate success, far surpassing the sales of other sales people in this company, and as well, he was raking in huge bonuses and was well on his way to becoming the best salesman the company ever had. That was until the company finally discovered that he was selling everything way below cost. This in turn cost the company a small fortune, and the guy had absolutely had no clue or concept whatsoever as to why the company was upset with him. I can almost believe that Gorge can’t understand why his approval ratings are so lo, he might actually believe he is the best unelected president this country has ever had…

Another case was about a rich guy who’s mother was going on a trip on an airplane. So decided to make a bomb and put it in her suitcase, and then took out a very large insurance policy. So when the plane blew up and killed everyone onboard the huge insurance policy led directly to him. So come to find out he had nothing against his mother and clamed to love her, his family was very rich and he didn’t need the money. He just basically did to see if he could scam the insurance company, just for something to do. And at the trial it is said that he was rater enjoying himself and all attention, without even the slightest hint of remorse or clue as to what he had done. No sense of responsibility what so ever. Go up an and read Tfc description of Gorge Bush and see the similarities.

So again case studies I think will help people recognize these people a lot easier, but I think there’s a lot to be said about dismissing oddities, as these might be the only clues one gets, requiring one to look maybe a little deeper.
Larry

[Echo In Light]

101. I suspect most people could cite examples of this pathology in their workplace

From within the ranks of the "over achievers" and middle management types especially. A troubling observation on this is how some people tend to be annoyed with such people below the surface {jealousy of the social status the sociopath commands?} while ostensibly playing along outwardly, helping to further perpetuate the ideal within the collective mind.

So, say you have a work environment of fifty people, and a handful of management and supervisors with a few who embody the sociopathic traits. After awhile it becomes clear who these ambitious types are, as they simultaneously beget both high praise and contempt. Yet, in the cut throat world of business, their particular traits serve the profits over people mode quite well, and thus are encouraged and promoted, signaling to others How To Be, and likewise signaling to remain quiet and follow the exalted ideal.

From there, how many will be willing to stand up and say something, knowing that they will be tsk-tsk'd for criticizing such an exemplary institutional figure? Find a different job...?...well, sure, but you can bet you're likely to encounter these types at many places that offer the opportunity for sociopaths to thrive.

[Karenina]

102. Bingo!

[Larry Ogg]

103. I think I am getting you right, it’s like a double edge sword.

Lobaczewski talks a lot about the role of ego, and about how people of conscience who are honest motivated and have good intentions run for political office; and he paints a picture of a social stigmatism towards people who are and want to be politicians, i.e. all politicians are a bunch of egotistical crooks out to line their own pockets, and who can argue against that, for the most part this is true. Albeit there are a few shining examples of honesty, integrity and compassionate individuals that do on occasion get elected. But still, the good guy’s will be viewed by the electorate, pejoratively equal to that of the bad guys, just because they want to be a politician.

About and within the work place
I once worked for a corporation that was and still is, in the business of running the public transit services for varies big cities. I was a mechanic and my big naïve dream was too maybe someday to become a Forman. My way of thinking was that a lot of people would have such aspirations, so I knew that I had to work very hard, learn as much as could and become an expert in many task. In the old days the trades had terms such as apprentice and master, so I could say, my goal was to become a master mechanic, so I could become a Forman. Now I would never consider someone with such a goal as being overly lofty, egotistical or pathological, as achieving such a position would seem a lot more desirable than busting your knuckles, getting cuts and scrapes and covered with filthy grease, oil and dirt from head to toe on a daily bases for the rest of your life. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve your lot in life or being rewarded for your experience, expertise or achievements.

It’s obvious that the way I thought things should work, had nothing to do with how the real world works, then and now. And there is no real need for me to go into my resume of accomplishments as many people who work for such companies learn the old verbiage, it’s not what ya know it’s who ya blow, unfortunately I decided to learn that truth the hard way. I fought and dealt with it for six and a half years.

What I learned from that experience was that anyone who had aspirations to climb the ladder of opportunity was looked at with scorn, same thing applies to those who’s work performance is above average or better, as such acts makes others look bad, especially when the others are trying to look like their doing something, which is often much less then what they are capable of, some out of pure laziness, some out just wanting to fit in, and some out of anger and revenge for being denied opportunities conterminous to their expertise and accomplishments, yet all get too watch as advancements are handed out, not to the best among peers, but rather to the biggest and best brownnoser who knows less about the workers work than workers do.

People see a little, they hear a little, they know a little, and they may forget the memories of the things that taught them what the world is really like and their place in it, but they never loose the feelings of anger and bitter resentment, those, they just pass on, and this eventually becomes the spirit of the work place……
Larry

[Huron]

105. Where the Psychopath Harvests Supporters

Larry Ogg wrote:

People see a little, they hear a little, they know a little, and they may forget the memories of the things that taught them what the world is really like and their place in it, but they never loose the feelings of anger and bitter resentment, those, they just pass on, and this eventually becomes the spirit of the work place……

The environment of discontent is the place where the spellbinder begins his work and the psychopath begins his climb. Think about it. All the disastrous social experiments of the last century have had their roots in the perceivable unfairness of the social/economic system it was born in.

Dr. L:

If various circumstances combine, including a given society’s deficient psychological world view, individual’s are forced to exercise functions which do not make full use of his or her talents. When this happens, said person’s productivity is no better, and often even worse, than that of a worker with satisfactory talents. Such an individual then feels cheated and inundated by duties which prevent him from achieving selfrealization. His thoughts wander from his duties into a world of fantasy, or into matters which are of greater interest to him; in his daydream world, he is what he should and deserves to be. Such a person always knows if his social and professional adjustment has taken a downward direction; at the same time, however, if he fails to develop a healthy critical faculty concerning the upper limits of his own talents, his daydreams may “fix on” an unfair world where “all you need is power”.Revolutionary and radical ideas find fertile soil among such people in downward social adaptations. It is in society’s best interests to correct such conditions not only for better productivity, but to avoid tragedies.

Since this would weaken the main tool for galvanizing mass sympathy for a psychopath's "cause" you can see why such initiatives (the Great Leap Forward for those old enough :) ) are given great fanfare, then quietly hamstrung in the implementation. See every "War on Poverty/Drugs/(fill in the blank)" Maintaining society dislocation, yet always promising they have the solution to that dislocation is one of the keys to the psychopaths' hold on power. The trap is people putting their faith in leaders to 'save' them. and yet not perceiving that the leaders create the situations they need to be saved from. The prime example among many is, of course, the "War on Terror".

Another type of individual, on the other hand, may achieve an important post because they belong to privileged social groups or organizations in power while their talents and skills are not sufficient for their duties, especially the more difficult problems. Such persons then avoid the problematic and dedicate themselves to minor matters quite ostentatiously. A component of histrionics appears in their conduct and tests indicate that their correctness of reasoning progressively deteriorates after only a few years’ worth of such activities. In the face of increasing pressures to perform at a level unattainable for them, and in fear of being discovered as incompetent, they begin to direct attacks against anyone with greater talent or skill, removing them from appropriate posts and playing an active role in degrading their social and professional adjustment. This, of course, engenders a feeling of injustice and can lead to the problems of the downwardly adapted individual as described above. Upwardly-adjusted people thus favor whip-cracking, totalitarian governments which would protect their positions.

Upward and downward social adjustments, as well the qualitatively improper ones, result in a waste of any society’s basic capital, namely the talent pool of its members. This simultaneously leads to increasing dissatisfaction and tensions among individuals and social groups; any attempt to approach human talent and its productivity problematics as a purely private matter must therefore be considered dangerously naive. Development or involution in all areas of cultural, economic and political life depend on the extent to which this talent pool is properly utilized. In the final analysis, it also determines whether there will be evolution or revolution.

Dr. L. keeps hitting them out of the park.

[Echo In Light]

99. In a rep dem, the govt's actions are carried out in the names of all

[Cronopio]

68. The OP describes where the real culture war is being fought.

Between the people who understand the need to co-exist and the dominators.

I believe it comes down to whether you can perceive anything beyond your primitive threat programming or not, or are motivated to try to do so. If you don't, you'll inevitably become either a successful dominator or an unsuccessful dominator (an enabler drone of the successful).

Very well written and crucial article, Time for change.

[apocalypsehow]

82. *Placemark*

n/t.

[Karenina]

104. . .