the bus that's carrying the Olympic flame is being blocked by protesters.

[AlCzervik]

It's crazy and being shown live on local news, "Absolute Mayhem". The bus is on it's way to the starting point of the run---imo, it's not gonna happen.

www.kcra.com

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Good

:)

[AlCzervik]

2. they shold just cancel it.

[Better Believe It]

3. Bad

[AlCzervik]

4. too late, it's a mess and it's not like they didn't know this would happen.

[Occulus]

20. Waaaah

Suck it up. China doesn't deserve the Games, and they do deserve every last disruption and protest that occurs, both before and during.

[Subdivisions]

5. So, where's the outrage for US human rights violations? Go figure. n/t

[aikoaiko]

6. that's not fashionable.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. They're really not comparable

Imagine a protest like this in Beijing - there would be hundreds killed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Imagine Iraq.

Millions killed.

[spoony]

15. China: tens of millions killed

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. American slave trade: brazilians killed.

:shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

23. no, millions not killed

but far too many.

Still, not comparable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Fine, 1.2

Frankly, I think Iraq is a far worse humanitarian disaster than Tibet.

But it's easier to demonize foriegners.

[MonkeyFunk]

27. First, 1.2 million is not the number of people

killed by US troops. It's an estimate of the number of people who've died - a large number of them killed by their own countrymen. I'm not defending the war or the US's role, but it's not like we've gone in there with the expressed purpose of destroying their culture, like China has been doing for 60+ years in Tibet.

The US and China are just not comparable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Iraq apologist too now, eh?

It's 1.2 million dead thanks to the U.S. invasion.

I'm sure Chinese apologists would argue that the Tibetans are just killing each other too.

[MonkeyFunk]

35. Nope

not an apologist - I said right in my post.

But your position is nonsensical.

[girl gone mad]

48. You come off..

as a China apologist.

Giving a logical assessment of the situation in Iraq is not excusing our involvement. we did not invade Iraq with the intent of killing millions and wiping out the culture, as some would suggest by equating that war with China's crimes against humanity.

[bullwinkle428]

54. He should know that jiggery-style oinkery has been expressly forbidden on the Chinese Intertubes...

;)

[Karenina]

36. Does the museum come to mind?

Or the many archeological sites that have been destroyed? Or the zoo where drunken soldiers shot the big cats? Is memory THAT SHORT?

[MonkeyFunk]

37. Nope

I remember it all and I'm not discounting it.

I'm saying that the US and China are not comparable when it comes to human rights, and it's ridiculous to think they are, or that we have no right to object to China.

I've been watching this protest on live TV for over an hour now. Imagine a similar protest in China. Would you see it on TV? How many would be killed, beaten, arrested?

[DS1]

46. This is the best post in the thread

Everyone calling MF an Iraq apologist because of his statements in here is just a flat-out hyperactive idiot.

[Karenina]

51. How many military bases does China maintain in other lands?

How many Chinese corporations are exploiting developing nations backed by military force?

Who has China bombed lately?

Weeee're gooooood. Theeeeey're Baaaaaad!!! Baaaah, baaaaah!

I am in NO WAY defending China. They are equally as SCARY as the US of A.

You have the right to object to whom you wish. Too bad your objections to your own trespasses are so wimpy. SO WIMPY that a genocide is being perpetrated in your names. SAVE IRAQ?

SAVE TIBET! FUCK NOLA!!! Observing the histrionics from a distance provides quite another perspective.

What do you think would happen in your HOMELAND if her citizens suddenly got a clue and were motivated to ACT? NOT AGAINST "THEM," but against YOUR OWN CRIMINALS??? :shrug:

[girl gone mad]

57. Take a deep breath and relax.

A lot of people around here are letting their hatred of America get the better of their logic and rationality.

Most of our military bases are maintained at the behest of the host countries. There are exceptions, but lets not forget why the vast majority of those bases were established: because of our involvement in WWII.

When America implements a one child policy and promotes and tolerates the infanticide of tens of millions of girls; when the US government censors all media and violently squelches all protest; when America starts imprisoning political activists on a large scale and harvesting their organs; when America displaces millions of its own poor citizens to benefit a few connected individuals; when America treats its drinking water like open sewers and its air as an industrial toxic dump... then we can talk about being "equally bad".

Oh and here's a clue for you... our citizens are actively aware of the crimes and fraud perpetrated in our name and the criminals will be booted out of government in less than a year. Can China say the same?

[Karenina]

58. China does not and never has "branded" itself

as the "shining city," the sacred nation all should follow.
Theeeey're baaaaaaad! Yooooou're goooooood! Baaaaaah. Baaaaaah!

[girl gone mad]

59. You're kidding, right?

Ever watched Chinese television? Read a Chinese-written history book? Read Chinese newspapers?

How about Mao's little red book?

A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.

[conscious evolution]

67. Nine Commentaries on the CCP

I have been reading a series of editorials fro th Epoch Times about the Chineese Communist Party and the crimes they have committed upon the Chineese people.
It is a very eye opening to say the least
And our politicians and business leaders want to do business with these people.

Here is a link and some excerpts from the introduction.
I highly recommend giving it a read.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-1/24696.html


More than a decade after the fall of the former Soviet Union and Eastern European communist regimes, the international communist movement has been spurned worldwide. The demise of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is only a matter of time.



Throughout its 80-plus years, everything the CCP has touched has been marred with lies, wars, famine, tyranny, massacre and terror. Traditional faiths and principles have been violently destroyed. Original ethical concepts and social structures have been disintegrated by force. Empathy, love and harmony among people have been twisted into struggle and hatred. Veneration and appreciation of the heaven and earth have been replaced by an arrogant desire to “fight with heaven and earth.” The result has been a total collapse of social, moral and ecological systems, and a profound crisis for the Chinese people, and indeed for humanity. All these calamities have been brought about through the deliberate planning, organization, and control of the CCP.

Commentary 1
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-9/24672.html

On What the Communist Party Is
More than a decade after the fall of the former Soviet Union and Eastern European communist regimes, the international communist movement has been spurned worldwide. The demise of the Chinese Communist Party is only a matter of time.

Commentary 2
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-13/24830.html

On the Beginnings of the Chinese Communist Party
Why did the Communist Party emerge, grow and eventually seize power in contemporary China? Did the Chinese people choose the Communist Party? Or, did the Communist Party gang up and force Chinese people to accept it? The CCP has set itself above all, conquering all in its path, thereby bringing endless catastrophe to China.

Commentary 3
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-13/24939.html


On the Tyranny of the Chinese Communist Party
Today the Chinese Communist Party (CCP)¡¯s violence and abuses are even more severe than those of the tyrannical Qin Dynasty. The CCP¡¯s philosophy is one of ¡°struggle,¡± and the CCP¡¯s rule has been built upon a series of ¡°class struggles,¡± ¡°path struggles,¡± and ¡°ideological struggles,¡± both in China and toward other

Commentary 4
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-14/24953.html


On How the Communist Party Is an Anti-Universe Force
In the last hundred years, the sudden invasion by the communist specter has created a force against nature and humanity, causing limitless agony and tragedy. It has also pushed civilization to the brink of destruction. It has become an extremely malevolent force against the universe.

Commentary 5
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-18/24972.html


On the Collusion of Jiang Zemin with the CCP to Persecute Falun Gong
Why is Falun Gong, which upholds the principles of ¡°Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance¡± and has been promulgated in over 60 countries worldwide, being persecuted only in China, not anywhere else in the world? In this persecution, what is the relationship between Jiang Zemin and the CCP?

Commentary 6
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-20/25087.html


On How the Chinese Communist Party Destroyed Traditional Culture
The CCP has devoted the nation¡¯s resources to destroying China¡¯s rich traditional culture. The CCP¡¯s destruction of Chinese culture has been planned, well organized, and systematic, made possible by the state¡¯s use of violence. Since its establishment, the CCP has never stopped ¡°revolutionizing¡± Chinese culture in the attempt to completely destroy its spirit.

Commentary 7
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-23/25124.html


On the Chinese Communist Party¡¯s History of Killing
The 55-year history of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is written with blood and lies. The stories behind this bloody history are not only brutally inhumane but also rarely known. Under the rule of the CCP, 60 to 80 million innocent Chinese people have been killed, leaving their broken families behind.

Commentary 8
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-26/25182.html


On How the Chinese Communist Party Is an Evil Cult
The Communist Party is essentially an evil cult that harms mankind. Although the Communist Party has never called itself a religion, it matches every single trait of a religion. At the beginning of its establishment, it regarded Marxism as the absolute truth in the world. It exhorted people to engage in a life-long struggle for the goal of building a ¡°communist heaven on earth.

Commentary 9
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-12-30/25242.html


On the Unscrupulous Nature of the Chinese Communist Party
What is most terrifying is that the CCP is going all out to try to destroy the moral foundation of the entire nation, attempting to turn every Chinese national to various degrees into a scoundrel in order to create an environment favorable for the CCP to ¡°advance with time.¡± It is especially important for us to understand clearly why the CCP acts like scoundrels and to discern its criminal nature.


Some readers will note the references to the Falun Gong movement.Falun Gong is a Buddha school somewhat similar to what the Dalai Lama teaches.Like the Tibetans the members of the Falun movement have also been heavily suppressed and persecuted.I am pretty sure the website that published these commentaries is run by Falun Gong members.While it is definetly anti CCP propoganda it is very accurate in its presentation of what has happened to China under the the CCP.

By the way,in China it is a crime to read or possess these Commentaries.

[tavalon]

52. You think America has any interest in Iraqi culture staying afloat?

No, actually, they don't and they in fact, want it in disarray because the country will be easier to loot that way. It's the same tact we took in Iran throughout this century (see history 1908 to the 1950s)and then we have the gall to act surprised when the religious extremists took over Iran and spanked us with the hostage situation (1979). This is a game we've been playing for over a hundred years in the Middle East, so I'm afraid it is extremely comparable except that I'm unsure if Tibet has anything that China wants except its submission. Does it make it better that we are destroying cultures in the Middle East so we can get their oil?

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. January 2007 - 750,000 on the streets in DC

CNN reported "thousands".

Faux reported "hundreds".

It just wasn't a glamorous enough protest I guess.

[tavalon]

53. I've been to a couple of those non protests in Washington DC

My mother-in-law was watching a documentary about the Vietnam war protests in Washington and asked why Americans don't do huge DC protests these days. I said, "We do. They don't cover them or they diminish them. We can't get pictures out there to the public to sway them to our cause and yet, we still have, despite the media." My own mother-in-law! Sheesh.

Even here, people who haven't actually been to one of those huge protests that have been happening at least once a year since 2003 don't realize how effectively the media is shutting us down. The war would already have been over had the media been doing their job or at least not actively suppressing our efforts.

It's not about glamor, this is active suppression of the anti-war movement here in the U.S.

[spoony]

13. Yeah, we should completely ignore atrocities elsewhere

Tell you what, protest the NHL playoffs or something and I'll applaud you too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. The better question is

where is our media?

The outrage is HERE. I have participated in many many protests, both in my city and in DC. But our media ignores these events.

[girl gone mad]

47. I guess you've been under a rock for the past..

7 years?

:eyes:

Mass protests across the country, blogs, message boards, billboards, lawsuits, elections, freeway blogging, full page newspaper ads, letters to the editors, magazines, books, Crawford...

Where the fuck have you been?

[tavalon]

55. Come to one of the DC protests

It's highly enlightening to experience becoming a non person along with nearly a million other protesters. It's amazing to see these huge protests with your own eyes and then watch the media actively suppressing the numbers, refusing to film it, refusing to show it. It's amazing and distressing. To be on the amazing high of being with these wonderful, indominateable spirits and then to watch the media spin until I puke.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

7. Any images..

Way to so SF!

[AlCzervik]

8. click the link i posted in the op and they have a video section for it.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. wow

CNN doing live coverage now. It's supposed to come up the embarcadero soon.

I feel bad for the torch runners - but good for the protesters.

[XOKCowboy]

11. Great video...

If this is just getting the torch to the start line it's going to be tough going.

[AlCzervik]

12. for sure and the presence of the Chinese "Security" in their blue track suits ain't helping.

[Occulus]

19. I hope they realize that this isn't China

China in no way deserves to host the Olympic Games unless and until they stop murdering their own citizens just for saying bad things about their government.

I truly, truly hope the disruptions at the games- and you know there will be disruptions- cause the Chinese to lose all the 'face' they have. May some of the athletes bag upon China, on camera, during the Games, IN China, as viciously and unapologetically as possible.

Shame on the IOC for picking Beijing. China does not deserve the honor.

[XOKCowboy]

22. If for nothing else the pollution the athletes will have to endure

I was there last year and most days you couldn't see a half mile away. It's horrible. Running a marathon in that air? I can't imagine.

[AlCzervik]

26. some athletes won't compete there because of that alone.

[AlCzervik]

17. ok, torch is lit, game on.

[aikoaiko]

18. I don't like protester actually prventing the running of the torch

Protest, but don't prevent the movement of people who have nothing to do with the things your protesting.

[tavalon]

56. But they do

The Olympic committee chose China - and they get all the baggage that comes with that.

[XOKCowboy]

21. CNN has great coverage.. Now "went into a warehouse"..

Total chaos.

[spiderpig]

28. This is a link for a live webcast with local (Bay Area) perspective - KTVU

http://www.ktvu.com/video_legacy/15833969/index.html

[AteAlien]

24. thanks for the live coverage link! eom

[aikoaiko]

30. wooo hooo the torch is burning and being run through the city....

[AlCzervik]

31. on streets where no people are.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

32. Torch bearers are waving at Nobody. This is stupid.

It's a Joke.

[aikoaiko]

33. The regular folks on the streets are there.

[EFerrari]

40. They snuck out of town, onto the freeway and went to the airport

which is out of town.

[aikoaiko]

34. Its sad that many of the people who wanted to see the torch won't but lots of people on the streets

will see it.

[Mind_your_head]

41. We Americans seem to be very 'righteous' about what China is doing in Tibet

all the while we have our own "issues" with what we are doing in Iraq. And the people on the street are mostly silent about this.

Puzzle me that. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

42. It is possible to protest both.

:)

[Mind_your_head]

49. It's "possible", but that's not the reality ......

....as you well know.

[EFerrari]

61. Um, having been to protests of both, no, I don't. n/t

[Mind_your_head]

63. You don't what? eom

[EFerrari]

66. I don't well know that that's not the reality because yes,

we do protest both here. Do you not read your own posts?

[Mind_your_head]

68. Well, we do protest both.....

but this China/Tibet/Olympic Torch THANG is getting a WHOLE lotta more MSM coverage than our iraq anti-war protests EVER did.......

I don't think you would disagree.

Peace,
M_Y_H

[EFerrari]

71. That's very true. I was working PR for the last Beach Impeach.

There was a total media black out here even though we had the biggest turnout outside of D.C. on that date.

Today, the local media mostly tried to smear us as potentially a threat of violence when nothing like that happened.

[PetraPooh]

44. I agree, kind of a pot meet kettle moment, and even if we don't go outside the USA

our human rights record ain't so great lately with the most incarcerated individuals, those being mostly black and poor, more mentally ill persons living on the streets, and so on.

[Lorien]

65. The same people protest both issues

my inbox fills up every day with actions to take on 20-30 issues. Just because I send out a letter condemning the Iraq war doesn't mean that I'm not ALSO sending out letters about women's choice, saving Yellowstone's wolves, freeing Tibet, stopping mountaintop removal, funding food banks and on and on.If you want to make a difference in the world today you've got to stay busy, and not turn a blind eye to injustice WHEREVER it is found.

[PetraPooh]

70. Or one can focus on one or two priorities and try to make a bigger

difference with those. I simply cannot spend my entire day focusing on nothing but injustices. The one's that seem most important to me are the ones that are being done by my government, once those are on the way to resolution, I'll worry about the next priority.

[Lorien]

64. I guess that you've been under a rock for a very long time

there have been COUNTLESS protests against the Iraq war here in America. Lots of us have marched in them or attended vigils. If you care about human rights and justice then you'll be pissed about BOTH. I've got enough outrage for EVERY issue that matters, don't you?

[malaise]

43. I hope they'll be protesting Bushco's war with as much exuberance

but more importantly I hope M$M will provide such enthusiastic coverage.

sp.

[EFerrari]

45. You're kidding right?

And, the media here regularly blacks us out.

[malaise]

50. That's my point

:D

[EFerrari]

60. The president of the board of supervisors has called our mayor out

saying that today he governed SF just like China is governed -- with deceit, manipulation and obfuscation.

OOoh, boy.

[malaise]

62. That's the irony

all for the corporate Olympic torch which actually belongs to the IOC and not China. I hope I see the same protests when the games are held in London -they're responsible for the genocide in Iraq.

[EFerrari]

69. I don't think you have to worry that San Francisco will hold back.

lol

[PoliticalOne65]

72. Is this signs of things to come?

Will we be seeing this kind of thing at the Democratic National Convention in Denver in August? The question really is can people protest here in The United States anymore? I see no problem with people protesting what ever they want. What has happened now is that protesters have killed the events they are protesting. Or the alternative question; Has there been an over reaction from the law enforcement officials that has caused an end to normally public venues due to protesting. Example: The democratic convention is closed to the public. No spectators. The delegates are there. About 30,000 press passes are being issued. Can I walk up and get a day pass to go watch the speeches? No. These are public officials who represent us. Can we go watch them in action? No. Is this due to over zealous law enforcement or protesters that have gotten out of hand. I am sure the same thing applies with the republican convention to. Just something to toss out there and debate about.

[EFerrari]

73. This morning our idiot mayor said that the torch had gone through

the city "with dignity".

I guess he doesn't think free speech is dignified.