When do we stop apologizing for slavery?

[ForrestGump]

I happened to glance at DU tonight and, in LBN, saw a thread about how Nebraska (not a slave state) was not going to apologize for slavery. Some of the responses within kinda boggled my mind and set me to wondering...

Specifically, I began to wonder when a nation should -- if ever -- basically "get over" (yes, I hate the term, but it works) a legacy of slavery. The country I'm thinking about first and foremost is the USA. One poster in the aforementioned thread basically insisted that all Americans owe an apology and that the underpinnings of The American Way were thanks to the legal exploitation of slave labor up 'til the latter part of the nineteenth century. I can't say I especially begrudge an apology, really, even if only collectively as humans, not necessarily as just Americans. Even in its most restrained forms, slavery was (and is) brutality, and we all know that the brutality was often absolutely unrestrained here and abroad.

And what of me, born and raised outside the US and only becoming a US citizen as an adult? I was naturalized in 1993...my ancestry is British (Scottish and English) and so what did I have to do with American slavery? I suppose you could stretch and say that, in trading with the South and backing the CSA during the Civil War, Britain benefited from American slavery, and they certainly did before that, including before 1776 when what is now the eastern USA was a colony. But, still, it's not only a bit of a reach but is not something that I hear people talking much about -- in discussions of apologies and reparations, and similar, it's seemingly always the US that's indicted. And, along the same lines, what of American children who were born in that same year, 1993? American children born any time since slavery, really...for that matter, American children born outside of states that permitted slavery even before the Civil War, and their progeny.

This, of course, does not even begin to consider the thorny issue of racism. For one, though the racism was institutionalized in the South right up through living memory, it was certainly not endemic to the South but was simply harder to discern up north.

Then again, there's that British heritage of mine. The English side of my family tree's very well documented because they were all gentry and nobility (the Scots were decidedly the opposite, wild Highlanders who are barely documented but who I imagine were not likely to be major players in the African slave trade) and there're no slave profiteers there. Colonial adventurers and, further back, Knights of the Crusades, sure -- by this I mean that I'm sure they took part in some dirty deeds for King and Country -- but no slavers in the Americas, Asia, or the Caribbean that I've been able to identify. But, still, the Brits were the ones who brought slavery to the New World, at least slavery that involved captured Africans. And slavery was also practiced by locals in the parts of Africa from which unfortunate Americas-bound slaves originated, and many Africans were active participants in the slave trade. For that matter, slavery was traditionally practiced by at least some native tribes in the Americas.

All this just kind of makes me wonder when a nation or an ethnicity can forgive itself, or be forgiven, for a history of slavery. Is it just a matter of time, with white Americans (mostly of the South) being among the most recent and large-scale overt slaveholders in industrialized nations? And, yes, I say 'overt' because many in this country and in this country's corporations' overseas facilities are essentially slaves, even now, as are many people in other countries around the world (look to the diamond trade for one example, and then there's the worldwide sex-trade slaving industry).

If this sounds very confusing, it's because trying to get all this straight is confusing me terribly, and not just because I haven't had much sleep lately. I'm hoping that someone else will write something here that seems to place it in a sane perspective. Perhaps the best I can come up with right now is that we all, regardless of race, religion, nationality, or age, need to apologize for the existence of slavery, in all its forms. And, better yet, we need to do something concrete to stamp out the remaining vestiges of that despicable practice...

[malaise]

1. I'm guessing

until systemic racism is removed.

By the way Scotland acquired her wealth from slavery in the 'British' Caribbean.

[ForrestGump]

5. Dammit

Now the Scots are in it, too.

Still, unlikely the wildmen of the hills were in on it.

So maybe now I should admit that some of my ancestors were Tasmanian landowners.... :-(





About the racism, though: not sure it's the real cause, given how many enslave people of their own race. It probably makes slavery an easier sell, and much of today's slavery (like that of yore) may be along at least tribal or subculture lines, but I can't help but think that slavery would continue even if racism were no longer a systematic exercise.

[Uben]

2. I've never apologized and never will......

...I've never owned slaves, so there's nothing to apologize for! And, I don't owe anybody anything because their great great grandparents were slaves. The premise is ridiculous. My grandparents were sharecroppers themselves! Hell, we was po as church mice, and my family has asked for nothing...we worked for it! Most of us are pretty well off, now. I retired at age 45, eight years ago!

[trumad]

4. So your comparing your grandparents to slaves?

[Uben]

11. They weren't slaves....

....slavery was abolished long before they were even born. They did pick cotton in the fields with the black folks, though. During the depression, you did what you had to to make ends meet. I'm saying I don't owe anybody anything because some assholes owned slaves. My family did not make a dime off of slavery.

[Eric Condon]

101. I think you're missing the point.

To compare the struggle, however difficult, of your grandparents with the hardships faced by slaves is insulting.

Being poor is one thing. Being a SLAVE is something different altogether.

[ForrestGump]

14. I am sorry that slavery existed as it did in this country.

But for me to apologize for my part in it, or my family's, is just kind of meaningless. It has no true sincerity to it because it's not based on a true story.

And, yeah, if my ancestors were slaveholders I suppose I'd regret the family history and apologize for my family's part in it, but to really apologize as an individual -- one born a hundred years after the fact -- would be similarly hollow. On that grounds I think that having governmental institutions apologize is what makes sense, but in the case of Nebraska it's pretty much the same story as an individual that had nothing to do with slavery.

Apologizing in full for genocide would be another handy move for the US government. I think it's pretty hard for anyone to deny that Native Americans fairly consistently got, at best, the short end of the stick (if not the sharpened point, buried in their guts) and still do...

[Uben]

18. Amen

I am of American Indian decent (Chocktaw and Chickasaw). I've never asked for, nor received, anything because the white man took my ancestors land, though I am eligible for some benefits. That was then, this is now. I don't live in the past.

[Mike Daniels]

44. Agree 100%

While I find the USA's involvement in the slave trade to be one of the darkest spots on our history, I personally find no need for me to apologize for our involvement.

My mom's relatives came here in the late 1800's at the earliest. My dad's relatives landed on the Outer Banks pre-revolution but didn't own slaves and made their living as fishermen/hunters.

I find no need to apologize for something my family had no involvement with and if someone has a problem with that they can cram a sharp stick up a certain opening.

[Sadie4629]

3. One of my cousins did some geneology research

and discovered that we have an ancestor who fought to free the slaves in the Civil War. He was wounded and discharged, but later went back into the Army to continue the fight. Do you think I should be exempt from having to apologize?

[ForrestGump]

6. I'm not sure what I think about all this apologizing business, really,

but I do know that, when it comes down to it, probably all of us are guilty of some atrocity via genetic association, no matter how long in the past. The Union army, for example, may have been the historic 'good guys' in that conflict (and no, my friends of Dixie, that does not mean I consider the Confederates evil or dishonorable as soldiers or as citizens) but they're also the outfit responsible for Wounded Knee and much more.

I'm just wondering when the apologies are no longer needed and who decides what groups, of all the groups who've committed horrible acts over the centuries, need to apologize and which ones get a pass.

[woodsprite]

7. Let's just keep it to the current century - OK?

I don't see any reason why anyone alive today needs to appologize for something that our ancestors did eons ago in the 1700s and 1800s. Now, if your personal ancestors were slaveholders and you are still today a slaveholder, then yes, I would expect an appology from that individual and anyone who was an 'accessory'.

There is alot that this country and current administrations need to appologize for and correct. The slaveholding of the 1700s/1800s should no longer be a concern on the radar. People have been free for quite a while now. If they have a problem with how their ancestors were treated, they are free to find a country or place where they don't feel that way. That goes for anyone - BUT, anybody who's gonna go someplace else better get going because all of us may be slaves again to this government if we don't fix the problems facing us here and now.

[semillama]

127. Yes, let's keep it recent.

I've put Douglas Blackmon's new book Slavery By Another Name on my to-read list. Here's the Publisher's Weekly review:

"Wall Street Journal bureau chief Blackmon gives a groundbreaking and disturbing account of a sordid chapter in American history—the lease (essentially the sale) of convicts to commercial interests between the end of the 19th century and well into the 20th. Usually, the criminal offense was loosely defined vagrancy or even changing employers without permission. The initial sentence was brutal enough; the actual penalty, reserved almost exclusively for black men, was a form of slavery in one of hundreds of forced labor camps operated by state and county governments, large corporations, small time entrepreneurs and provincial farmers. Into this history, Blackmon weaves the story of Green Cottenham, who was charged with riding a freight train without a ticket, in 1908 and was sentenced to three months of hard labor for Tennessee Coal, Iron & Railroad, a subsidiary of U.S. Steel. Cottenham's sentence was extended an additional three months and six days because he was unable to pay fines then leveraged on criminals. Blackmon's book reveals in devastating detail the legal and commercial forces that created this neoslavery along with deeply moving and totally appalling personal testimonies of survivors. Every incident in this book is true, he writes; one wishes it were not so."

I don't know that anyone is really asking for individual apologies, but I don't think it's inappropriate for an official national apology to be made. African-Americans today still struggle from the effects of centuries of slavery and institutionalized racism. An apology is certainly in order.

[acmavm]

8. A person should apologize if they're gullible enough to believe that they

are responsible for things that happened way before they were born and that their apology will undo whatever wrong is in question.

Since EVERYBODY has been SOMEBODY'S slave since Grok picked up the first heavy stick and whacked Attu over the head and forced him to work for him sometime back in the beginning of human history, I don't think we can ever apologize enough. Hell, the whole damn planet should spend the day apologizing. But we need to do a damn good job of it. And not be a bunch of politically correct frauds.

So, in that spirit I hereby apologize to everyone everywhere who lives in a country that was ever invaded by any foreign nation/city/state and the inhabitants hauled off to slave for their conquerors. Now where do I send the check?

[zanne]

9. An apology for hundreds of years of brutal enslavement...

I guess that's too much to ask, huh?

[Uben]

15. You weren't a slave....

Those people are all dead now. The one's who need to apologize are also dead. So why ask someone who never owned a slave to apologize?

[zanne]

20. It doesn't matter if the slaves are gone now...

They have descendants. They have people, son and daughters, who were taken away from them to be sold. We have to show some respect.

We apologize for being late for dinner. Let's apologize for our ancestors who abused and mistreated their ancestors. Saying that there's no need for an apology is just arrogant.

[Uben]

23. No it's not

I am an American Indian. They put slaves to work, but they just murdered my ancestors and took their land. I've never asked for anything because that was before my time. Why should anyone living today apologize for something they had no part of?

[zanne]

28. Sounds like you have your mind made up.

That's a shame.

[Uben]

34. Why is it a shame?

My ancestors were treated far worse than the slaves. You don't hear me asking for an apology. Actually, the descendants of American slaves are much better off than a lot of their kinfolk in Africa because their ancestors were brought to America. They enjoy the benefits of being an American citizen.

I think most people don't realize that most slaves, when freed, stayed with their owners and worked as sharecroppers. They had a job, a place to live, and food on the table. The shit you see on TV, slaves being whipped and beaten, did happen, but it was not the norm. Most slaves were greatful to have a job and place to live. They gladly stayed on their plantations.

[zanne]

38. Holy crap, Uben!

When's your next Klan meeting?

[gollygee]

39. Pat Robertson, is that you??

What are you doing here on DU??

[SteelPenguin]

45. That's skewed

While I agree that the American Indians were treated even worse than African Americans (both directly and indirectly), your second paragraph is a bit skewed.

Saying that they gladly stayed on their plantations, when they had no money, no idea where to go, no options, and the second they stepped foot off the plantation ran the risk of being reenslaved, or killed, by someone else, is comparable to saying that the Cherokee gladly moved to the wide open spaces of Oklahoma because they had plenty of room to run. A choice made by a person who has no choice isn't something to base any ideas on.

[Virginia Dare]

51. Just like the native american peoples..

gladly stayed on the reservations, right?...:eyes:

[Blue_Roses]

87. how incredibly naive or dum you are if you think

that they "gladly stayed on 'their' plantation," cause that ain't the way it happened for many.

[BoneDaddy]

37. No, an apology is when I have done something wrong

and I own it. I have done nothing wrong and will not allow people who are angry and hurt over something that occurred way beyond the time my ancestors were even part of this nation.

I think that when people hold onto collective wounds they remain stuck and unable to live in the present or move into the future. As long as people continue to demand an apology for something that others are not accoutable for, it will remain an issue that divides the races. I am Irish and the Irish were dominated by the English for 700 years. The legacy of dysfunction in many Irish families is as a result of this oppression, yet I do not feel the need to have the current English apologize for what their ancestors did.

It is time to grow up and move beyond this.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

55. You cant apologize for your ancestors

Its a completely meaningless act and does not transfer regret to them, rather it transfers guilt to you..

[Justpat]

120. That is it in a nutshell for me.

:thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

69. I'm not responsible for your grandparent's behaviour.

I don't understand why I need to apologize for your grandparents' behaviour.

I apologize for the continuing racism though.

[coriolis]

89. Can we just apologize once and be done with it? Or do we have to

do it every 30 seconds for the next 500 years? You must have some kind of timetable in mind here...
:eyes:

[mondo joe]

114. Interesting. I might see some sense in apologizing for something a family member

did to another - not an apology really but an acknowledgment.

If my brother killed someone I might feel called on to express my sympathy to the victim's family. If my cousin did, I'd feel less like I SHOULD say something as a relative.

And that might extend to ancestors. But at a minimum I'd have to KNOW it was my ancestor.

I don't believe in sharing or being accountable for guilt with someone else just because we have the same ethnicity or skin tone.

[Codedonkey]

116. Ok. I'm sorry...

Does this mean my kids and their won't have to apologize since I just did it?

[dipsydoodle]

36. Dunno

Do also want to issue the same apology to the entire indigenous population which preceeded the settlers and were ultimately to a large extend wiped out by them ?
Might be a better start - restore all of their land rights too.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

54. Apologies imply culpability

[DangerDave921]

10. Apology

An apology by a nation is a meaningless, feel-good gesture that does nothing. The current government does not engage in slavery, and there are no slaves anymore to apologize to. So an apology is an exercise in empty rhetoric.

Slavery still goes on today around the world, yet no one seems to want to discuss it. Is that because it's not white americans doing it?

Slavery was an ugly brutal time in America. But at the same time, it was white America - largely Christians - that ended slavery.

[warren pease]

72. No, no and no...

An apology by a nation is a meaningless, feel-good gesture that does nothing.

An apology -- and some serious compensation money to back it up -- is far from meaningless. It's absolutely necessary if this country is ever going to come to grips with the systemic racism, bigotry and xenophobia that drive everything from the resurgence of Jim Crow to nooses in trees to "he's really well-spoken... for a black man" to immigration policy. You name it, racism drives it or at least plays an important part in it.

The idea that the US has reached some post-racist state and has evolved into a pure meritocracy in which ability and character are the only things that matter is beyond ridiculous. It's self-deceptive and dangerously out of sync with the way things actually work. Still, that's the anti-affirmative action argument and people seem to believe it, or at least want to.

An apology backed with a bunch of money is just a recognition that some back pay is owed the people who built the entire plantation economy -- for free -- after getting kidnapped from their homes, separated from their families, shipped across the ocean, auctioned off, whipped, chained, maimed, shot and eventually, when the cost/benefits ratio no longer made the slave an asset, killed and left out for the crows and buzzards, burial being time consuming and labor intensive.

Even this miserable excuse for a government does the occasional study on relationships between race and socio-economic status, disparity in various mental and physical health indicators, average life spans, home ownership vs. renting, average income per year and per lifetime, educational level, access to social services if needed, and a bunch of other demographic touchstones.

And even this miserable excuse for a government admits -- not out loud, of course, but in the fine print of the footnotes on page 137 -- that yes indeed, blacks aren't doing as well as white. And further, the entire system is set up to produce that result. Personally, I'd want a little damn parity and that's generally a function of getting a decent enough sum of money for, say, a down payment on a house or maybe a stake to open a small business.

And btw, my ancestors on my father's side were busy murdering each other in various vendettas back in Sicily until about 1910. My mother's ancestors were busy drink Viennese coffee and sampling chocolate truffles. So I didn't do it either.

Still, I recognize that I benefit from the American whites-first system, and I further benefit from 400-plus years of free labor that organized the South into much of what it is today -- the rocks removed from the fields; the roadways cleared and connected; the railroad right of ways hacked out of the voracious weeds.


The current government does not engage in slavery, and there are no slaves anymore to apologize to.

The current government encourages and therefore engages in the practice of slavery. Here's an interesting piece regarding slavery in North America today. Leaving aside the idea of "stop loss" troop deployment extensions, which is as a blatant and obvious a form of forced labor (i.e., slavery) as you'll find these days, consider the Bushies' mad dash for the economic bottom, here and abroad, and how zero labor costs are the logical result of Malthusian theory as well as the wet dream of rapacious free-market renegade capitalists everywhere.

In addition, what would you call a country in which about 1 out of a 100 people are in jail and where the burgeoning, largely privatized prison-industrial complex houses the ultimate cheap labor pool? The nationwide average prison wage is currently $.22/hr. which is as close to slavery as you can get. And they do all kinds of stuff, from furniture making to telemarketing. And of course this cottage industry couldn't survive, much less thrive, without the encouragement and favoritism of federal and state governments.

But is racism involved, too? Well sure it is, this being America. As of late last year, blacks comprised about 12 percent of the US population, but nearly half (48 percent) of the US prison population. Think these slaves, many of whom are non-violent drug offenders, might deserve some kind of apology if this country ever gets its collective head out of its ass?


Slavery still goes on today around the world, yet no one seems to want to discuss it. Is that because it's not white americans doing it?

These days, slavery's just a bit more subtle than in the plantation economy and, of course, it's unreported by any US mass media outlet. Therefore, as far as the American public is concerned, it doesn't exist. And because it doesn't exist for these people, it would be weird if they sat around discussing it.

American obliviousness notwithstanding, white Americans practice it still, as do people of just about any color, ethnicity or culture. Slavery: It's today's happenin' thang!!

Google Saipan, Nike, Abramoff, Delay, Marianas Islands, made in USA and any other combination you can think of that pulls up sources of information on how US clothing and apparel manufacturers use "indentured servants" as laborers to raise profit margins to the roof.

Piling outrage on top of outrage, laborers must pay their travel expenses to The Marianas islands, and then pay some more to the factory bosses for the privilege of securing jobs in their notorious sweat shops.

Here's an excellent piece by David Swanson that explains how the whole scam works, who gets rich and who gets screwed. Decide for yourselves if this perversion of the global economy meets the standard of slavery.

These workers, mostly young and desperate women from China, and some from the southeastern Pacific islands, are de facto slaves because they're not paid enough (if they're paid at all) to ever be able to pay off their indenture bonds. They work 12-hour shifts -- or longer -- for pennies a day.

They have no access to health care unless it's to fix a problem that keeps them from working at 100 percent efficiency. Pregnancy is unacceptable, and is not covered by the pathetic health care system. They're left to deal with it themselves, so risky and potentially lethal do-it-yourself abortions flourish.

They quickly learn that they'll never get off Saipan legally. They experience systemic hopelessness, leading to high suicide rates.

Driving labor costs as close to $0.00 as possible equals more cool private jets for Nike's Phil Knight and the rest of the rulers of the slave-based manufacturing economy they've set up. But they couldn't have done it alone; they had friends in high places so they got a lot of help and complicity in the form of favorable legislation and suspension of various anti-exploitation regulations, courtesy of the GOPiggies who've kindly seen fit to grant their employers in the campaign contributor class carte blanche to go absolutely fucking nuts and import the entire feudal system into the 21st century.


Slavery was an ugly brutal time in America. But at the same time, it was white America - largely Christians - that ended slavery.

Ugly, brutal -- yup, yup. And white America had to end the practice of slavery simply because they had all the power and the slaves had none. There were numerous small slave rebellions, brutally crushed, along with instances of slaves joining native American tribes to form an armed resistance to white invaders and bounty hunters. There were a few bands of runaways roaming the land, particularly around central Florida and east Texas.

But any organized effort to end the institution of slavery -- involving political, social and eventually military elements -- would have to come from whites. Who else had the power?

Christians, Jews, various subsets of both, atheists -- the anti-slavery movement included all creeds or lack thereof. I wouldn't bestow the credit too quickly on Christians, unless they're willing to shoulder about 100 percent of the blame for setting the system up in the first place. This wasn't a bunch of "Islamofascists" running the show in Atlanta or Mobile or Birmingham, after all.

Anyway, that's my case for reparations. I also thing this country is badly in need of a truth and reconciliation commission on the lines of South Africa's a few years back. Right now, the fact that discussing this issue quickly shifts from appeals to logic and decency into flame wars that feature accusations of racism on the one side and accusations of over the top political correctness on the other.

Somehow, this country has to publicly acknowledge that it systematically fucked people over on the basis of race and that current evidence suggests the pattern continues, although it's now far more subtle and so deeply ingrained that it's taken for granted by all concerned -- until it isn't. Like driving while black; like being the automatic suspect because of color; like being feared by white people who cross the street to avoid contact; like being presumed to be less intelligent than whites because racist eugenicists implanted that meme in the public mind and, because the white public wanted to believe it, it stuck and remains there today.

That's enough for one morning.


wp

[DangerDave921]

73. Well . . .

Quite the essay, I have to say. And you make some good points. But you kind of changed the goalposts a little, didn't you? :)

The original post was about an APOLOGY, to which I responded. You then added a whole new element -- MONETARY REPARATIONS, which was not part of the thread. That's a different issue. Of course, I disagree with reparations too. Sorry. :) So many things wrong with it, e.g., who pays for it, who gets paid for it, how much, etc. Do you just want to hand a big check to every african american currently living in the US? What about poor whites? Or Asians? Or any other ethnic group that has historically had a tough time in history? It's so open-ended to be unworkable. Even estimating 30 million african americans in the US, it would take an ungodly amount of money if you actually wanted to give each one a down payment on a house, or seed money to start a business.

I could go on and on but I have to work too. Your heart is in the right place, but I have never seen a legitimate case for reparations. Although I do like the Dave Chappelle skit where reparations get paid.

[warren pease]

79. Yes, it's unwieldy and cumbersome and all that...

But the fact remains that, unlike the other ethnic/racial groups you mention, blacks alone were kidnapped, shipped over here and forced under threat of severe punishment or execution to build the entire southern economy while the fat white farmers sat on their verandas and bitched about how tough it was to get decent help.

I don't have any idea how to repay blacks for what's been done to them. I'm not even sure it's possible.

I do know that they've been treated horribly, they continue to suffer from America's institutionalized racism, and that somehow that needs to end. Obviously, you can't legislate tolerance. Nor can you flip a switch and change the entire culture and its basic tenets.

Maybe money is not the way to correct things. Certainly an apology is long overdue. I still think a public acknowledgment via some kind of truth and reconciliation forum is a reasonable start.

Strangely, I didn't realize at the time that I had injected another element into the equation. I've heard so many times that money is the way corporations and governments say they're sorry that I guess I just assumed that would have to be part of any formal apology.

Ah well... If I were a really smart guy, I'd have answers instead of just questions. As it is, I'm left just scratching my head, devoid of any useful solutions.


wp

[DangerDave921]

83. :)

Asking questions is always the first step.

And funny, I'm an attorney and we always talk about how the Defendant is apologizing by paying money! LOL. They do get kind of intertwined.

[AllentownJake]

12. A comparison

This might get me flamed...however if you go to Germany...its obvious they are sorry for what they did during WWII. They have a lot of museums and memorials Now I know that was 60 years ago and this is 140 years ago but I don't think we need to apologize. I think we need to honestly educate about what was done in the building of this country and Yes Virginia, the US sometimes does bad things.

Ways to start would be a MLK memorial in DC and funding the Slavery museum in VA.

[JanMichael]

13. Don't take this issue personally---it's directed at the US as an

institutionalized state; or a specific state.

"You" are not required to apologize. It's not about you.

[ForrestGump]

16. Yeah

I just realized that while I was writing my reply #14 above.

Told you I was tired... :P

And, as said above, I suppose it's true -- in cases when the slaves and the system are long gone -- that it's largely an empty gesture. But it's still one that's worth making, I think. It can't hurt. After all, slavery's gone in this country (THAT kind of slavery, anyway), but the very fact of discussions like these and of Affirmative Action and other measures indicates that its effects are still rippling throughout US society.

[ColbertWatcher]

17. Maybe some real discussions first...

...Chris Rock says behind every great fortune, there is a great crime (or something close to that).

Perhaps a review of who made money off slavery would help the discussion?

I make this suggestion because few people know who benefited from the Holocaust. Consider how IBM benefited. Would knowledge of IBM's involvement in the Holocaust open up some eyes?

Now, imagine what a review of the fortunes made from slavery would do.

Forget for a second anyone should apologize for anything. Just consider who benefited.

Start with that conversation.

I'm sure it would open up some eyes.

[elizfeelinggreat]

111. that would be meaningful

and I think anything that pushes our country to acknowledge that wealth doesn't equal worth (morally) would be a great thing. Shining the light on these works, as in your example, would bring that to the forefront without much effort.


Imagine if we (collectively as a society) valued altruism and scorned greed, because we could easily recognize what each does to a society, what a wonderful gift to give our children and the world in general.

[crikkett]

19. Al Sharpton answers that stupid question with the following:

"perhaps you should apologize for slavery for as many years as slavery existed in this country"

I think you have a couple generations to go pal.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

58. Well the english should still be apologizing to me for more than 600 years

From about 11 hundred ad when the land was invaded by Saxons/Normans to 1916 when most of her gained freedom..

[crikkett]

109. the difference between your heartwrenching story of mistreatment and oppression

and my grandmother's is that she's still alive.

[polichick]

21. The U.S. has NEVER formally apologized - though Bill Clinton came close...

There needs to be official acknowledgment of the wrong (just as in any case of abuse) for healing to be completed. NPR had a discussion about this one morning, and someone suggested that the government has fallen short of an apology because it could strengthen the case for reparations.

I support an official apology.

[ForrestGump]

27. I guess better late

than never.

The idea of reparations is pretty fascinating. Seems to me that it would be a massive undertaking, to say the least. It also seems to me like the US had better keep the checkbook handy for Native Americans, people of many Central American and Caribbean nations, and Iraqis, among others.

[polichick]

32. Yep, the potential costs are a real problem...

But so are the costs of NOT owning up. I support official government apologies for slavery and the treatment of Native Americans. I'm not sure how you handle other nations ~ though the U.S. will never reach its true potential without a good long look at its behavior in the world.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. I agree completely.

I believe that, to move forward, it is always necessary to acknowledge and atone for past wrongs -- as a nation we have never truly done that when it comes to slavery and Native Americans.

Until it is done, the wrong will remain a festering wound that will never heal. Mandela understood this -- he took many of the necessary steps towards lasting reconciliation for his country.

Someday I hope a future American President has the courage to apologize to the people of Iraq for the horrible wrong we have inflicted upon them and takes steps to atone. I may be long dead, as may be the Iraqis directly effected by our monstrosities, but it will still be the right and necessary thing to do.

[SpiralHawk]

22. "The sins of the fathers shall be visited upon the sons." - Ye Olde Testament

karma is a bitch.

[Virginia Dare]

52. SpiralHawk, OT..

but didn't the native fathers warn us of Global Warming centuries ago? Pretty chilling.

[Romulox]

59. You might want to rethink this. The Old Testament approves of slavery.

Irony alert!

:rofl:

[mondo joe]

112. Oooh generational sin being passed on. What a nasty fundy sort of thought.

[elleng]

24. Racism is very much with us today;

how directly it derives from slavery I can't say, but it afflicts African-Americans very much today.

Saw a documentary yesterday about causes for statistically significantly higher rates of low-weight African-American infants today; the answer is high daily levels of stress in African-Americans because they are African-Americans. Sorry I can't cite the study, but appeared very well done.

[geek_sabre]

43. sounds like

BS. perhaps you can find the source, or the name of the documentary.

[elleng]

46. The study > documentary

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496909

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race:_The_Power_of_an_Illusion

PBS: http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

[Brewman_Jax]

48. The documentary in question is...

Unnatural Causes: Is Inequality Making Us Sick? aired on PBS April 3 at 10pm

[drmeow]

82. actually, studies of stress and newborns that I know

would bear this out. Furthermore, African Americans do have more stress simply due to their skin color. As a researcher who studies the effects of stress on chronic illness, this doesn't sound like BS to me at all.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. how about when we stop slavery?

Marianna's Islands are your basic slave factories DBA as american companies.
We KNOW that a good percentage of young blond women being kidnapped throughout the US, Canada and norther Europe end up in Saudi princes' harems as sex slaves. Yet try to get the authorities interested.
Almost every month sex slave rings in the US are found, involving russian and bulgarian mafias. Italy is notorious for having eastern euro chics come to find work, only to be put into bondage for commercial sex operations. Many times, they are forced to become addicted to herion, just so they are more easily controlled.

[GodlessBiker]

26. If a nation can have national pride over its actions, a nation can have national guilt.

I see nothing wrong with calls for apologies or the apologies themselves. Apologies cost very little and can go a long way.

[zanne]

30. Well put, Godless!

I'm surprised to find this "Not me--I didn't do anything" attitude on DU. We'll never be able to make up for slavery, but I find it hard to fathom that some people don't even want to apologize for it.

[ForrestGump]

31. Not sure that national pride or guilt are either necessarily very constructive, though

I agree that an apology is the least that can be done and don't see why any American knickers should be twisted by the thought (though having non-slave states apologize as individual entities seems to dilute the apology, if anything).

[GodlessBiker]

33. I think they are very important. Is the nation, as we each conceive it, worth fighting for?

I have both pride and guilt over what this nation has done in the past. On balance, this nation is worth fighting for, and it should not go the way of, let's say, the Soviet Union.

[ForrestGump]

35. True enough,

when you put it like that. :)



I was thinking of the extremes: rampant jingoism and its polar opposite.

[bighart]

77. I think you are confusing guilt with shame.

I have a deep sense of shame for the fact that this nation was built to a large degree on the backs of slaves. I feel a deep sense of shame that those in power chose to break every treaty they made with native peoples. I feel a deep sense of shame that the government decided to put Asians in internment camps during the 40's as well. I do not have guilt for any of these things because I was not alive when any of these things were done. Guilt is something that visits me for choices I have made, not choices of others.

[GodlessBiker]

86. You need to have a Jewish mother, who makes you feel guilty through no choices you have made.

[dkf]

29. I get the feeling we are apologizing more for Jim Crow laws

than slavery nowadays.

When no person who is alive has been affected by Jim Crow laws then we can stop apologizing.

This country has a whole bunch of things to apologize to black people for.

[sergeiAK]

50. There are still Jim Crow laws on the books

Where I live. They're not enforced as much as they used to be, but the opportunity is still there, and some sheriffs are a little less "progressive" than others when it comes to enforcing the law.

[LanternWaste]

40. A few days after we forget it happened...

"When do we stop apologizing for slavery?"

A few days after we forget it ever happened at all...

[MuseRider]

41. As I always told my children

it never hurts to apologize and do it sincerely. As far as I know my ancestors did not own slaves. So what? Makes no difference. This country has benefited from the fact that many did own them. The repercussions live on and for that we own nothing less than a sincere apology. It does not hurt anyone to do so and the repair it might make in relations could be great.

I see no problem with qualifying your apology if you feel the need. Everyone assumes that nobody living here today has owned slaves so there really is no reason to but if that is what it takes to bring race relations further along then why not? Why be so stubborn when healing can be continued by a few simple words that do nothing to hurt you and may mean much to someone else?

It is all very simple.

[mainegreen]

42. Screw meaningless apologies to people long dead. Lets make things better now for everybody.

The problem with a meaningless apology is that it doesn't help anybody today deal with any of the real day to day lingering issues of racism and generational poverty. It's a dog and pony show trick designed to distract.

"Hey look over there! They apologized! All better!"

[nomorenomore08]

100. Exactly. Dealing with current racism is far more important than any "apology" could ever be.

Even a formal apology for slavery from the federal government would only be a feel-good band-aid allowing people (mainly white people) to feel better about themselves for no damn good reason.

[bean fidhleir]

47. Jim Crow was still the law in many places when my *children* were born

Slavery and its aftermath are by no means "old news" even today. As long as people are treated worse because of dark skin color, slavery is a current problem.

A poisoned cup is still a poisoned cup even if you dilute it with clean water. It may no longer kill you outright, but you'll get sick if you drink from it.

[Tim4319]

66. Wow! great point!

[seabeyond]

49. really not being a bitch, ... but here

my father in law is from new orleans. his sister is 15 yrs older than he is. his sister was declared black on birth certificate. on his 15 yrs later he was white. he never knew about his sister or his heritage. it was about 5 years ago hubby started digging and found this. not far out of husbands father side they were black, then one line started verring to white. husband has more than one black line of families living in calif, cousins, and other places and has chatted with them. husband and my sons white as white.... but my father in law, i see black chacteristics. some in his oldest son

really, my boys, my husband are not any further out of the slave generation than if their skin was black....

do we apologize to them? because my father in laws sister paid for being black. she was denied entrance to college in the 50's

a question.

not a challenge

[ismnotwasm]

53. When all harm done from it has disappeared

Which, judging by what I read around here means Fucking Never.

[Political Heretic]

57. Not while we continue to live with the servere and pervasive consquences of that legacy daily.

We're nowhere near ready to "get over" the legacy of slavery.

If we do that, it will be like our attitude toward our genocide of the first nation's people - we basically dismiss it, and ignore the inequality and injustice.

[malaise]

110. Well said n/t

[Tim4319]

60. Reading the posts assosiated under this thread really saddens me

It truly unfortunate that people do not want to recognize the destruction of a whole race of people! Slavery is just the beginning. I understand no one here owned slaves. But, the events that followed, over 200 years worth, still has an effect on black people today.

Black people have gone to war for this country, only to come back home and denied the right to sit at a lunch counter, drink from the same water fountain, the ability to vote, the chance to have their children attend schools with white people. How about Emmitt Till? How about "Black Wall Street" in Tulsa Oklahoma? How about the Tuskegee Airmen? And, the only thing people can say is an apology is not needed. All of these acts are direct actions of slavery!

[seabeyond]

65. we elect a black president, that will take us a long way in apology. today

in the car with my white boys.... (see post above), son was telling me what his friends were saying about electing obama. one of them is the tired and used... if obama is elected he will only put blacks in.... and gasp, like so what?

i told white sons, forever white males have only been putting in white males and now i am hearing if woman or black elected, ... tehy will not put in white males. the hoorors. so what are we to do, elect another white male so he continues to hire only white males.... what sense is that

not to mention, blacks and women dont do that.

my white boys know, and we continue the discussion, of their responsibility as white males, even though they are not bigots, even though they do not discriminate, ... their part because of their race and gender.

just as we feel a responsibility as christians as a whole to the christians causing problems

and sons have role in their male privilage with females.

doesnt make them responsible for others actions, but they can understand why there are issues....

[thesquanderer]

106. So what indeed!

re: "if obama is elected he will only put blacks in.... and gasp, like so what?"

Yes. Apart from, as you point out, the fact that it's a false accusation, "so what" is a good question. Like when people kept saying that Obama was Muslim. The first, and obvious answer is, no, he's not. But there is that second issue underlying, which is, "so what?" Who care if he actually was a Muslim, or once was, or "sympathized," or whatever, why would it even matter? How do they think it would affect his presidency? Do they think he would nuke Israel or something? I didn't understand the concern, even if any of it were true.

[Romulox]

61. Notice how we little people are supposed to apologize ad infintum, but...

the financial and political institutions that benefit from racism to this day (e.g. the War on Drug and the For-profit Prison Industry) are almost never criticized in the media or by politicians?

[Ghost in the Machine]

62. I never owned a slave, therefore I have no reason to apologize to anyone...

Oh yeah... my grandmother was full blooded Cherokee... has anyone apologized to her the Trail of Tears or the stolen land or all of her ancestors that were murdered?

Here's the deal... *you* weren't a slave, your *parents* weren't slaves and unless you're about 80 years old or older your *grandparents* weren't slaves either so stop the faux outrage, quit playing the 'victim', stop living in the past and move on with your life, looking forward to the future...

[EFerrari]

85. It's not living in the past if the consequences are still with us.

We haven't even yet confronted slavers yet, let alone the Trail of Tears.

The past really is prologue and not dealing with it just makes us more likely to continue the error in some new form.

I really don't understand all the defensiveness on this thread. Can we not say, "That was wrong as it's possible for human beings to be wrong. I'm sorry that happened." How hard is that, really?

Are we not sorry that happened?

eta: F#ck.

[Ghost in the Machine]

91. But see, we *did* deal with the past already... we abolished slavery here, didn't we? You know...

that whole 'Civil War' thingie....

We recognized it as human rights violations and we righted the situation. Wasn't that enough of an apology? How many times does someone have to apologize for something? Do we have to apologize to each new generation as they're born?

The only ones that are keeping the slavery issue alive are the ones who refuse to move on past it and join us in this present day time. They keep it alive by playing the victim card, when all the real victims are long dead and buried. It's important to *remember* the past, but it's more important to move into the present and the future.

[EFerrari]

93. You no more aboloshed slavery than you held slaves

and yet, you want to claim credit for one without claiming responsibility for the other.

Good lord. As if simply abolishing slavery is dealing with it. The victim card? :wow:

[Ghost in the Machine]

94. Please point out where I said that *I* abolished slavery....

I said WE, meaning the Country as a whole. The very same we that I spoke of when I said "we recognized it as human rights violations...."

The simple fact remains this: There are no slaves alive today. There are no children of slaves alive today. There *might* be a handful of grandchildren of slaves alive today, but they'd be in their 90's or older. I'm sure there are some great-grandchildren and some great-great grandchildren, but if *they* think their ancestors from 4 or 5 generatioms ago are holding them back, they have a more screwed-up thought process than I can help with. I believe that's called 'playing the victim card', is it not?

[EFerrari]

95. Your use of the plural pronoun "we" is very selective.

And if you think for a minute that "we" have dealt with the consequences of founding and actually building this country on the backs of black slaves, you are, at best, blissfully naive.

And yes, there are slaves alive today and in this country. Old habits die hard.



http://www.amazon.com/Nobodies-Modern-American-Global-Economy/dp/1400062098

[Ghost in the Machine]

97. No, I can just tell the difference between me, personally, and 'we', as a collective..

I, personally, have never owned a slave, therefore I, personally, have nothing to apologize for.

We, as a Country, allowed slavery to flourish, as did just about every other developing nation in the past. We, as a Country, decided that it was wrong and made owning slaves illegal. Once again, there's that whole 'Civil War' thingie... remember it?

Now, if we want to talk about being treated with equality, I can't argue with that. I can also offer my apologies that some of our species still haven't advanced mentally enough to not judge someone by their skin color, but I can't take responsibility for it happening. As long as we have ignorant people raising kids, we're gonna have more ignorant people coming up every generation. We need to change that cycle, and we need to do it within the next couple of generations. Ideally, this generation coming up now is the one that will work harder to effect this change.

We're only one race, and that's the Human Race.... we all have the same feelings, wants, desires & heartaches, and we all bleed the same color blood...

[newmajority]

98. Was slavery really abolished, or merely exported?

Not all of it even exported, for that matter. We have slaves in this country today, only it's disguised as the prison system. A lot of them are in there for ridiculous reasons (drug offenses) and just by coincidence, or perhaps not, statistically speaking, the majority of them aren't Caucasian.

Slavery is bullshit no matter how you package it.

[Karenina]

113. White Supremacist's Statue to Stay Put at S.C. House...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3263790

[Karenina]

129. 128 responses, NO recs...

The confederate flag flies and the South shall rise again.

Germany and South Africa are the ONLY nations who have had the courage to deal with their "past."

[Rosemary2205]

63. I am an American with slave ancestors - why should I apologize?

My ancestors are not guilty of anything that requires a formal government apology for slavery, nor am I. I would be offended if my government made any sort of apology on my behalf - as if I am somehow to blame for my ancestors being slaves.

edit - typo

[Terran]

64. It is not, and never has been

an issue of individual responsibility for slavery. Not stupid here: it's pretty obvious that no one living now is "responsible" for slavery, because none of us were there when it was happening. So all you people who are outraged by the idea of an apology for slavery can get that little personal outrage out of your systems, it doesn't mean a damn thing.

The apology really needs to come directly from the US government itself, from both Congress and the President. We all, as current residents of the US, whether born here or not, whether our parents were born here or not, are currently benefitting from slavery. Slavery, along with its related economic institution of exploited foreign labor, is to a very great degree responsible for the way this nation developed its economy and infrastructure in the 18th and 19th centuries. I'm not saying slaves built the Empire State Building, but slaves and other exploited people did a hell of a lot that allowed *others* to build things of significance at greatly reduced cost. Slaves built the economy of the South, and helped fuel the economy of the North and West. All of that has come down to us to this day.

It's simple. Just picture an alternate world where there was no slavery in the New World at all. No spice trade, no sugar trade, no rum trade, no cheap cotton, no free labor, none of that. How much do you think all that was worth in 2008 dollars, over the course of 200+ years? Take that away from our economy (I know, it's vague, but consider the overall concept), and consider how all that FREE MONEY affected the US economy. Remove all that, and we might well be sitting at an early 20th century level of technology right now, just for starters. We might not even be the superpower we are now.

Don't like the science-fictiony scenario? Sounds silly? Ok, then let's try removing 20th century Mexican farm labor from California. Even to this day, if that kind of cheap exploited labor didn't exist, you'd all be paying four or five times the prices for apples and oranges. You are, right now, benefitting from cheap exploited labor if you buy California produce. Slavery? From an economic point of view, it's the same thing, just a different century.

We all, everyone who lives here (really maybe almost everyone worldwide connected to the US economy in some way) benefits from slavery.

[ForrestGump]

67. Good point

Just woke up and saw quite a few good points added to this discussion, from varied perspectives, but your invocation of an alternate history in which the USA (and its immediate forebear) did not benefit from the economic 'plus' of slave labor really makes it clear that the nation as a whole was affected, even where slaves were not held. This, of course, distinct from the national shame of having had slavery for so long (and so ironically, given that whole Declaration of Independence thingy: "all men are created equal") and having given it up so stubbornly.

And, as has been said a couple of times above, there's no real harm in the national government formally apologizing, even at this late date.

[seabeyond]

68. i thought we "apologized" with clinton? n/t

[thesquanderer]

105. consequences

re: "there's no real harm in the national government formally apologizing"

Keeping in mind that, as others have said, this isn't a question of whether we, as individuals, apologize, but rather one of whether the government apologizes...

I think one concern is, if the government, as an institution, officially apologizes... by extension, admitting guilt, accepting blame/responsibility... it will open up the door to lawsuits and a more formal legal ground for reparations, which is a more controversial issue, and one that can possibly, in theory, create "real harm" in that there will possibly be financial implications (harm in the sense that money that goes somewhere is money that otherwise would have gone somewhere else, or increases debt). People and institutions are less likely to engage in apologizing if they fear it will come back to bite them in the wallet. An apology is not unequivocally only a verbal gesture with no further consequences. You can argue about whether or not that is a good reason to not apologize, but I do believe it is a factor.

Along those lines, to the person who noted Germany's acknowledgment of guilt, note also, they have also been dealing with reparations.

I wonder whether we'll ever apologize to Iraq...

[devilgrrl]

70. When did we ever apologize for it to begin with?

eom

[uppityperson]

71. I apologize for, and work against, the continuing racism.

That is something I have some responsibility for and can do something about.

[NeedleCast]

74. It's Feel Good Politics

Doesn't actually do anything but it makes some people feel good and they think that's important.

Progressives arguing that apologizing for something they (we) didn't do is why it can be hard to take progressives seriously.

[Terran]

90. It's actually a lot more than that.

I can tell you've never considered this issue from the perspective of a black person. Ever been treated like shit by someone and then later they want to be your friend, but they won't acknowledge what they did to you before? It's sort of like that. A formal apology would go a long way toward healing the racial taint this country has because of slavery. An apology might, *finally*, enable people to begin to "get over it" in a real way. Without it, we're just traveling down a long long road of intergenerational fear and hate.

[McHatin]

75. There is no need to apologize

As many have said, it is history. Sure, you could say that American slavery effects where we are today, but so does the slavery done by American Indians to each other and the slavery practiced by Africans among themselves. How are blacks and Indians any less culpable?

I guess Britain should apologize as well, being that they were in the slave trade and profited greatly from it. Really, the whole idea is childish.

[Jed Dilligan]

76. Usually when we're gearing up to reinstitute it.

[Zavulon]

78. Never. However long this planet lasts, we'll be expected to apologize.

No other countries will, just ours. We'll also still hear demands for reparations. This is an issue that will die only when the planet itself does.

I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing about it, by the way.

[L. Coyote]

80. If we ever do, worry that we have slavery again!

[EFerrari]

81. When do we stop empathizing with injustice visited on other people?

(And I confess I can't read this thread because some of the replies are sickening. So, I just decided to respond to you directly.)

:grouphug:

[qanda]

102. This thread breaks my heart

Thanks for your compassion in this sea of insanity. I don't know how much longer I'll be around DU.

[earth mom]

84. Reparations may go a long way towards healing some of the lingering resentment.

However, I think anyone who is harmed by U.S. governmental policies should be compensated.

And while that applies to African Americans and Native Americans....

it also applies to the working class, the working poor, the poor, the elderly, the disabled, the mentally ill and children with Autism who have all been hurt by the government and treated as so much trash.

:grr:

[earth mom]

96. And that applies to the veterans too.

:grr:

[uponit7771]

88. When the US federal government that supported slavery & Jim Crow enforces laws for underclass's...

...of minorities.

No white person owes me anything, the federal government on the other hand is in the hole still for supporting 400 years of stupidity though

[mdmc]

92. When I get my land and mule, fool!

or a black man is President..

[readmoreoften]

99. There is still slavery in the US. Literally.

As far as the legacy of the enslavement of African Americans, it's not about personal apologies. It's state and national apologies that are being offered.

If you want to apologize for something, apologize for the slavery you support today. http://www.ciw-online.org/slavery.html




These trailers are owned by the management of the tomato farm. Workers are kidnapped and forced to work here. Sometimes beaten and drugged. They earn $50 a day for hauling 2 tons of tomatoes. The management charges them $1200 a month to rent one of these trailers. It's like slavery, accept you tease you slaves by giving them a little money and making them 'indebted' to you.

The tomatoes these men pick are purchased by Taco Bell and Burger King.

Some other quotes:

At one labor camp:
The employers were charged with beating workers who were unwilling to work or who attempted to leave their employ picking tomatoes, holding their workers in debt, and chaining and locking workers inside u-haul trucks as punishment

At another:
The workers, mostly indigenous Mexicans and Guatemalans, were forced to work 10-12 hour days, 6 days per week, for as little as $20 per week, under the watch of armed guards. Those who attempted escape were assaulted, pistol-whipped, and even shot.

At another:
Operating in Florida and North Carolina, Ron Evans recruited homeless U.S. citizens from shelters across the Southeast, including New Orleans, Tampa, and Miami, with promises of good jobs and housing. At Palatka, FL and Newton Grove, NC area labor camps, the Evans' deducted rent, food, crack cocaine and alcohol from workers' pay, holding them "perpetually indebted" in what the DOJ called "a form of servitude morally and legally reprehensible." The Palatka labor camp was surrounded by a chain link fence topped with barbed wire, with a No Trespassing sign.

[DS1]

117. Kidnapped?

Where's your source?

[EFerrari]

118. I have a link to a recent book on modern US slavery in #95. n/t

[DS1]

121. I want the source of where those guys pictured were kidnapped

[EFerrari]

122. She has a link to an advocacy group.

When you go there, there are links to primary sources.

[DS1]

123. I went there, and didn't see the story relating to them

But I'm not about to dig through the entire site to find it, either.

[EFerrari]

125. The case that I find that specifies kidnapping is this one:

"U.S. vs. Tecum - In 2001, Jose Tecum was sentenced to 9 years in federal prison on slavery and kidnapping charges. He forced a young woman to work against her will both in the tomato fields around Immokalee, and in his home. The CIW assisted the DOJ with the prosecution, including victim and witness assistance."

And, I found that picture in the slideshow but there's not much text with it and it doesn't specify kidnapping. What usually happens with these folks is that they believe they are being driven to a job and they wind up staying against their will. I'm not aware of kidnapping in the sense of snatching people but the scum that runs these places isn't above it, that's for sure. Maybe RMO has more.

[DS1]

126. I understand that

I just want something to back up the claim that those guys were kidnapped, because they sure didn't look like it.

[flashl]

103. Don't worry about it. When the rest of this country becomes wage slaves they will understand. nt

[Ghost in the Machine]

130. flawed thinking and logic..it's as flawed as camping out overnight to see what homelessness feels

like.. There's absolutely no comparison at all. You know you're going home tomorrow, so it doesn't even begin to sink in to you. You don't feel the loneliness or the desperation that someone that has nowhere else to go feels. It doesn't scratch the surface one bit...

You might be a slave to the almighty dollar, but your boss doesn't OWN you, nor does he/she prevent you from seeking a new "boss". Also, most of your wage slaves are, in reality, slaves to their own selfish desires. They live beyond their means in an attempt to keep up with, or stay one step ahead of, the Jonses. Granted there are many who truly struggle and are living within their means, but there are varying factors involved in that, too. They may be limited by transportation, education, health issues, skills or a number of other reasons, but they *know* their limitations and have adapted their lives around those facts.

[flashl]

132. Hardly, the maintenance of 'two Americas' is a reality. Why is America segregated again?

I understand your point of the overnight camping, my point revolves around this Study: Earners high, low think they belong to middle class . There is an erosion of American's buying power, unfortunately, our buying power determines our status/class and ability to function.

America never created enough jobs to match its graduation rates or population growth. That's why we have a large population of college graduates today with masters and Ph.ds trapped in low-wage jobs. This unmet need for living wage jobs is not new.

Minorities have been living with the impact of out-of-field jobs/underemployment/unemployment since their 'emancipation'.

[dorkulon]

104. Never.

Slavery was a horrendous, 3-century holocaust. I'm a first generation immigrant, so maybe I don't have the "not my fault" issues some here do, but as a nation, yes, we should be ashamed, and we should never "get over it."

[BlooInBloo]

107. I know! Black people are soooo mean to white people!

[nomorenomore08]

128. Yeah, that Jeremiah Wright is such a cold, cruel motherfucker.

The delicate ears of White America were never meant to hear those words!

:sarcasm: (As if it were needed... yeesh...)

[GreenEyedLefty]

108. When we stop wondering when we'll stop apologizing...

It takes time to heal, especially when the slaves were "freed" only to face another 100 years of Jim Crow. It's too late (IMO) for reparations, but a truly heartfelt acknowledgement of the suffering of a people helps the process of reconciliation.

[DS1]

115. How about one day after the people who sold them in the first place apologize?

[Codedonkey]

119. I apologize to all african americans on behlaf of all white Americans.

Ok, let's unite together and enslave some south east asians so that they can make our cheap shit in some sweat shops...


oh wait, we already have.

[OwnedByFerrets]

124. Although not answering your

immediate question, maybe we should instead focus on stopping the SLAVERY that goes in every minute in the world TODAY!!

http://www.injusticeline.com/slave1.html

"We have all heard the stories of how slavery was ended in 1865. Yet, even today there are examples of slavery in the world. I am not talking about conditions that are the "equal" of slavery under one theory or another. I am talking about out-and-out slavery. I am talking about people being kidnapped or tricked and then held against their will. People who must work every day long hours or be beat. I am talking about people who are given no money for their labors. People who are bought and sold."

[samspade.]

131. Perhaps apologizing isn't the right approach.

Slavery is a labor arrangement that is greatly advantageous to the "employer." Although the slaves were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation and 13th Amendment, their disadvantages in the labor market, and American life in general, didn't suddenly disappear. The institutional and social biases that developed to preserve the slave society of the time continued to operate - holding black Americans back - and their attenuated echo carries through into present day America.

Rather than focus on apologies, and the attendant acceptance of fault that sticks in so many people's craw, I believe we need to take on the unfinished business of rooting out the lingering discrimination and inequality anchored in our institutions. Currently, we are trapped in an unproductive routine of racial gotcha that keeps the focus on individuals instead of the business of leveling the field for people of color in housing, education, employment, health care, and criminal justice.

As Obama pointed out in his speech on race, we must face - and come to terms with - our own resentments and complicity in perpetuating the problems in order to further our common cause as working Americans. I can't see this happening without great changes in the worldview of ordinary Americans, and recognize that there is opposition to the notion from the capital class, for dividing the working class through race conflict has proven advantageous to their purposes.

I don't see any shining path of activism or legislation that will take us to a nirvana of equality. I'm no social planner or political visionary, but I believe the first step is for all of us to see that America's racial challenges are bound up in class conflict, and realize that meeting the challenge of perfecting the Union is as it has always been, the responsibility of all Americans.

I guess that instead of "getting over it", we need to get on with it, it being the work begun so boldly in the Declaration of Independence and carried on by Lincoln, King, and so many others.

Sam