Muslim school in Minnesota

[Vexatious Ape]

I keep on seeing this story about a tax payer funded charter school in Minnesota that clearly blurs the line between separation of church and state. Where's the ACLU? Why no liberal bloggers ranting about this? The only people out there bitching about it are troglodyte Right Wing bloggers--clearly upset that they can't have tax payer funded Christian Fascist indoctrination schools.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1

http://www.startribune.com/16404541.html

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. I assume the ACLU recognizes race baiting and fear mongering when they see it.

:shrug:

[Vexatious Ape]

3. Oh please

There should be absolutely NO promotion of religion in public school. Separation of church and state doesn't only apply to bogger eating bible thumpers in Alabama.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. There isn't. It's a secular school.

The fact that they bring up the flag should have been the obvious clue as to how stupid that article is.

[Vexatious Ape]

7. This is clearly not a secular school

And I don't give a damn about the absence of a flag--it's the absence of separation of ...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

8. Secular?

The questions came after substitute teacher Amanda Getz taught at TIZA last month and told the Star Tribune about things she observed that day that shocked her.

"I've been in a lot of schools and I've never been in a school where they had washing rituals, or they had prayer, or where they had a room where you had to take your shoes off," Getz said.

"It is most likely that this substitute teacher was sadly mistaken," said Zaman.

--

Oh yea shes 'mistaken'

--

State law requires the school to fly an American flag during school hours, however no flag flies outside of TIZA Academy

--

Hmm so the school is breaking state law and yet receiving state money.. Something tells me were this a Christian Charter school many here would be more upset..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Even if she's right, it's a secular school.

Accomodating Islam is not the same thing as prostelytizing Islam.

[LanternWaste]

34. I imagine she's no more, nor no less mistaken than

I imagine she's no more, nor no less mistaken than the young lilly white and pure of heart girl in Athens, TX who faked her own attack...

Five'll get you ten on this one too.

[enki23]

2. er...

the ACLU is right here: http://www.aclu-mn.org/home/news/aclumnopensinvestigationof.htm

one liberal blogger is here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/islamic_schools_christian_scho.php

as for the rest? yawn. wake me up when we are constantly fighting islamic attempts to teach their creation myths in *all* public schools, when they take over school boards, when they get federal tax dollars to indoctrinate students with their sexual mores in lieu of actual sex education, when they get a special addition to high-school graduation ceremonies around the nation led by imams calling upon allah for blessings upon the parents and children in high-school gymnasiums.

in other words, wake me up when this is fucking newsworthy, and when it presents a problem anywhere near the scale presented by christian meddling in public eduction. or the taxpayer-funded subsidization thereof.

mountain, meet racism enhanced molehill.

[Vexatious Ape]

5. Right

The ACLU opened up an investigation about a month ago--no word yet. I won't hold my breath.

[enki23]

9. obviously the aclu is infiltrated by evil muslims, and hate all christians too

or, maybe there isn't as much to the story as you seem to think.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

11. Just to be clear..

The same ACLU that thinks this kind of accommodation is all well and good..

Thinks this needs to go to court..

"Confucius, Hammurabi and more than a dozen other historical figures have joined Jesus Christ on the wall at Slidell City Court in a move that officials believe will reassure visitors that it has always been the court's intent to showcase the people who helped to create the laws of civilized nations.

Officials mounted the additional portraits Friday, one week before a scheduled court hearing at which the Louisiana ACLU will ask a federal judge to remove the Jesus portrait.

The ACLU's new executive director said Wednesday that the changes to the display appear to show a clear intent by court officials to try to fix something they view as a problem.

"The question of whether Jesus needs to come down is the same question," said Marjorie Esman, noting that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that such displays must be conceived from the beginning. "You can't cure a problem by dressing it up."

http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/09/jesus_gets_company_on_slidell.html

--

I love the stated purpose of the ACLU but they do tend to be a bit near sighted from time to time..

[endarkenment]

12. Or maybe the complaint against this school is bullshit.

The ACLU appears to be studying the case, according to a post upstream. Would you suggest that they not study the situation, but instead just jump right in?

[geardaddy]

14. I with you on that one.

One substitute teacher. Just one. The evidence sounds a little thin to me.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. If they are really looking into it kudos

if that form letter is the extent of their investigation well thats something else

[enki23]

25. apples and oranges

the two issues are quite different.

also note that one branch of the ACLU is not the same as the next. the national branch doesn't not have complete control over making sure all branches operate completely consistently with one another. it would also be impossible for the ACLU to pursue all possible cases. so, if one were inclined to cherry-pick, one could always find two examples to juxtapose to try to prove the ACLU's agenda isn't acted on with perfect consistency. if one were so inclined, of course.

you are, it seems, so inclined.

oh, and one month isn't all that long for an investigation to go on without immediate action. so your criteria here are pretty goddamned fishy in the first place.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

30. Like I said, we need organizations like the ACLU

I just think they *can* *sometimes* have tunnel vision over what is state sponsored religion and what is diversity..

[DCKit]

32. Please refresh my memory: Which laws did Jesus write?

"Love they neighbor as thyself", charity, "unto the least of these...", etc... are wonderful teachings, but none has been codified, let alone practiced enough. Well, those agnostic and atheist groups that feed the homeless, provide care for the destitute and sick do, but they don't do it because it's the LAW - they do it because it's the correct way to live within the society they believe we should have. Damn heathens.

[geardaddy]

6. It's not a Muslim school

Check out their website:

http://www.tizacademy.com/Our_School.html

No mention of Islam at all.

[Cerridwen]

15. Actually,

it does mention Islam; just not directly.

First I'd better state: I am FOR separation of church and state. Any church. Any state. Either government "promotes" ALL religions or it "promotes" NO religion. But I'm a weird person who thinks the Constitution means something and was put in place to prevent some of the abuses its authors had witnessed or had studied in world history.

From your link:

"As an inspiration to our students, we have named our school after Tarek Ibn Ziyad, the Ummayad administrator of medieval Spain."

Google "Ummayad"

One link provided this information:

"The Umayyad Dynasty, begun by Mu'awiya, was in place for nearly 100 years, with Mu'awiya ruling for the first 20 years. The Umayyads established the practice of hereditary succession for the caliph, the leader of the Muslim world. This change decreased the number of succession debates that had plagued the reigns of the first four caliphs. The Umayyads were also responsible for the Muslim conquest of North Africa, Spain, and Central Asia. The Islamic empire thus grew considerably during the Umayyad period, and can be considered the first real Islamic state."

edit out weird linkage

[geardaddy]

16. I'm for separation of church and state too.

And if TIZA is explicitly accommodating Islam as part of the curriculum, they shouldn't receive state money. But if you think that just the name is enough to deny them money, then you should also deny St. Peter High School in St. Peter, MN.

[Cerridwen]

20. No, I don't think that.

What I replied to was the posters statement that the website doesn't mention Islam.

I wasn't sure how many disclaimers I needed to include in my post so I included just the one.

[geardaddy]

24. But it doesn't mention Islam.

It's only the name of an Administrator in medieval Spain who happened to be a Muslim.

[Cerridwen]

26. As I said in another post "I've got no dog in this hunt" n/t

[geardaddy]

29. I know.

Sorry to jump on you.

[Cerridwen]

33. No problem.

I almost didn't post because religion is always such a sensitive topic. But, I learned some new information and wanted to share. I'm very child(like)(ish) that way.

:hi:

[madrchsod]

19. if it was`t for people such asTarek Ibn Ziyad

we would`t be where we are now at this point in time. the muslims/arabs saved everything the catholic church tried to destroy. if they wish to honor such a person i`d say they are with-in their right to do so. maybe a lesson in history will enlighten people to what we owe the muslim/arab world at this time in western history .

[Cerridwen]

23. And the Irish saved some other.

:D

How the Irish Saved Civilization

I've "got no dog in this hunt". I was just making an observation about what you said in your previous post.

[WildEyedLiberal]

31. That is an extreme overexaggeration

"the muslims/arabs saved everything the catholic church tried to destroy"

That's no more factual than right-wing propaganda that asserts that Muslims/Arabs have never had any kind of advanced culture. I dislike when anyone - right or left - distorts history into agitprop that serves an immediate political interest. Yes, there were scholars such as Avicenna who translated works by Aristotle, but there were also plenty of Christian monks who translated and preserved ancient texts. Wild hyperbole such as your statement ill serves the truth.

[Igel]

37. I'll step in, as well.

One problem with the "Muslims saved everything" is that the people they saved it from was ...?

You see, most of the mss. were in monasteries and convents, as well as monk/nun-led schools. They were scattered about in N. Africa and the Levant, as well as in the Balkans. Even Spain had some; learning wasn't dead, it was just thoroughly disrupted and had receded quite a bit when the Roman empire fell. Some areas of active conflict were pretty much destroyed. N. Africa, the Levant, even part of Spain had missed much of the general destruction that was involved.

The eastern empire had been putting the empire back together when war broke out with the Persians; much of N. Africa, part of Italy and Spain, were "back" in the empire before that war. When that was done, Byzantium was exhausted and it had lost the western "bits" it had taken back. It probably would have resumed trying to reconstitute the empire, and the interconnectedness that made it a useful enterprise. That didn't happen.

When the Islamic conquest was done, N. Africa, the Levant, Spain, many of the remaining centers of learning--were looted, and their libraries transferred to good Muslim control. What history would look like in the absence of the looting is an open question.

It was the same with the idea of zero. It was found during the looting of a scholarly center in N. India, and the mss were taken back west, to more pure Muslim lands, for study ... The Muslims improved on the idea, but didn't invent it. How the Hindus would have developed the idea is also an open question.

In both cases, the assumption is that the monks and Hindus would have sat on their information. It might be valid; we'll probably never know. It's important for Muslim prestige that we assume we owe them a debt; how they managed to gain what they returned to us is always left unstated.

[Igel]

36. I doubt they changed their perspective in the last year or two.

The Wayback machine is also your friend. Here's one set of webpages from 2004, before this claim was hinted at, before people started seriously questioning Islam at public institutions in Minnesota.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031117070841/www.tizacademy.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=Our+Values&parent_id=0
"The mission of the Tarek Ibn Ziyad Academy is to contribute to building a diverse, virtuous and moral America by helping children to understand their stewardship role in the world, embedding in them a sense of care, responsibility, love, leadership, civic participation, citizenship, tolerance and cooperation. The Academy plans to provide its student group with a learning environment that recognizes and appreciates the traditions, histories, civilizations and accomplishments of the eastern world (Africa, Asia and Middle East) by developing a diverse and balanced curriculum that will enable students to both integrate into American society and preserve their cultural pride and identity.

"The historic example of Tarek Ibn Ziyad, 1,300 years ago, in his multifaceted role as an activist, leader, explorer, teacher, administrator and peacemaker, will instill in our youth the desire to achieve the heights of human greatness."

"Their cultural pride and identity" is hinted at by "eastern world". "Africa, Asia, and Middle East" sounds good, but it's delimited by another page.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030823205751/www.tizacademy.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=3&categories=Our+Curriculum&parent_id=0
"One of the unique features of this school is the inclusion of Arabic in the curriculum. Arabic is the language of culture that holds together the peoples of the Middle East, South Asia, North Africa, and East Africa." Voila: There's what "Africa, Asia, and Middle East" in the previous bit means.


Now, surely a logo or emblem would be meaningful. Here are the rules for a contest to design one:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030823212404/www.tizacademy.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
"The logo may contain a minaret as a symbol of enlightenment." One can quibble and say that it's not a restrictive, but a permissive, "possible component or theme." But it's unlikely to be one that the administrators considered undesirable. Note that "steeple" is not there, nor is "cross" or "Masonic scales".


Now, note that Ziad was a peacemaker. He lead the invasion of Spain and conquered much of it from the Visigoths. I take that to be his role as "activist". (That word, "activist", sounds familiar.) Now, he might have been invited. Odds are that's the victor's later justification, but maybe not.


Let's consider the board when this page was archived:
Mohamed Hussein Farid. Board member of the Confederation of the Somali Community in Minnesota, Board Member of Masjid Al Huda in Minneapolis.
Hesham Hussein. Then-president of the MN chapter of the Muslim American Society. He also serves on the board of Masjid Ummat Muhammad.
Clareen Menzies. On the board of "Sisters Need A Place", a woman's advocacy and social services organization.
Hassan Ali Mohamud. Imam of Imam of Masjid Takwa (mosque) in Saint Paul. Fellow at the Policy Making Forum of the Hubert Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota.
Asad Zaman. Then on the board of Masjid Ar Rahman in Bloomington.


I can find nothing on the "Policy Making Forum". "Sisters Need a Place" is devoted to helping one's fellow "Muslimah", not "sisters" in general. Ikhwan, Akhawaat, whatever. "http://www.geocities.com/Sisters_Need_A_Place/ . Probably a fine, although narrowly-focused, organization. Like those infamous Baptist and Episcopalian charities that only help, respectively, Baptists and Episcopals.

More on Menzies here: http://books.google.com/books?id=GtVRDfWdlYgC&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=Clareen+Menzies&source=web&ots=k0rdNEAHi7&sig=iZTEkwvN8VlkwKBkSFpnEsdwD8Q&hl=en . She's apparently a Notable Muslim Woman.
Hesham Hussein died earlier this year. His obit is at http://www.startribune.com/local/14473832.html .
A bit more about H.A. Mohamud here: http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2425
Asad Zaman had a glowing article written about him to dispel all the concerns, here: http://www.minnesotamonthly.com/media/Minnesota-Monthly/March-2007/Brothers-Keeper/ . Less favorable is http://www.redpills.org/?p=1048 , probably a more RW site, which raises the points (true or false, I don't know) that having school-sponsored prayer is verboten, as is having teachers pray with students.

Notice the extensive tie-in with the Muslim American Society. Oddly, MAS supplies the Islamic program that follows hard on the heels of the regular school day.

Half as much with a fundie Xian bent would get DU to near riot, with nobody trying to struggle to find defenses. I like to recall at such times the importance Chomsky places on asymmetry as a clue to underlying structure.

[geardaddy]

38. Thanks for the information

that is very informative.

[geardaddy]

13. Don't kid yourself

The two sources you have cited here are right-wing.

KKKatherine KKKersten is extremely right-wing. Read some of her other columns sometime.

Plus there are other charter school sponsored by a Catholic university and a Lutheran college.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

17. I was gonna say..."Katherine Kersten?"

:wtf:

Not someone I'd rely on to tell the truth about something.

[geardaddy]

18. Hey HK Cav

Check this out:

Separated at birth?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

22. *Snerk*

She looks more like a hobbit in that picture. (Probably one who thought that Sauron's whole "One Ring" theory was the correct path for Middle Earth)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. If Katherine Kersten is the only source for ANYTHING, I'll take it with a

grain of salt until proven otherwise.

She has a history of nitpicking the Muslim community.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

28. Only a grain, LL?

If Kersten told me the sky was blue and it was sunny out, I'd grab my umbrella just in case.
She lies more often than I blink.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. OK, OK a bag of rock salt, then

:-)

[BlooInBloo]

39. The muslims are coming! Squawk! The muslims are coming!

[riderinthestorm]

40. I don't see this as anything more than a church/state separation in a public school

issue.

As igil makes clear in post #36, there's some smoke here that's blurring that line.

DUers should be vigilant regardless of which religion is encroaching into our public schools.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[riderinthestorm]

42. Oh yeah, cause keeping religion out of public schools is such a "right wing" cause....

Go peddle your bullshit with someone else.